Is Shooting people causing you legal problems? Toon

[Ichingcarpenter]

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. Previously posted on Wednesday

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=43907

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

2. Hyperbole and factually incorrect.

The isurance only pays off legal costs in the event of an aquittal. If the person is convicted of murder and not self-defense... then there is no insurance coverage. Therefore this insurance does not support vigililantism or criminal actions.

"Self Defense Insurance" is not "new". There are a number of indemnity companies that allow for reimbursement of legal fees in many types of cases (not just self defense). It is more commonly referred to Legal Expenses Insurance (LEI).

Black people can get this NRA backed insurance... there are no pre-existing skin conditions. Playing the emotional appeal card by using a young black man in a hoodie (Treyvon) is in poor taste.

[EOTE]

3. You've misunderstood this cartoon.

It doesn't suggest that black people cannot get this insurance. It says that black people can't get insurance against the loons who'd purchase this insurance. Black people are disproportionately affected by laws such as stand your ground. The defendant is far more likely to get off scott free when he's white and the victim is black than when it's the other way around. It's not in poor taste at all, it's mocking cultures and laws which are in extremely poor taste.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

5. Sure they can... it's called life insurance.

The irony about the "guns affect black people disproportionately" argument is that a majority of the gun crime against black people is committed by... black people.

All Homicide Victims: White-50.9%, Black-46.9%
All Homicide Offenders: White-45.8%, Black-52.2%
Gun Homicide Victims: White-47.2%, Black-50.9%
Gun Homicide Offenders: White-41.9%, Black-56.4%

Furthermore, the relationship between a murderer and victim is by and large very likely to be intraracial (ie: black-on-black or white-on-white violence). As per the DOJ, From 1976 to 2005, 86% of white victims were killed by whites and 94% of black victims were killed by blacks. IMO, statistics would seem indicate that if anyone might need to use self defense and the CD/SYG laws offering protections to such users - it is black persons.

The point I'm illustrating is this: Making up a minority of the population, blacks comprise a disproportionate amount of homicide victims. Furthermore when a black person is gunned down, it is almost always another black person pulling the trigger. This would tend to indicate that the SYG laws, given qualifying prerequisites, more often tend to offer an affirmative defense to a Black shooter - especially if the person shot was also black.


For interracial acquittal situations which you illustrate in your post, I would say that it's not the SYG laws that are the problem... it's the racist culture of the persons enforcing the law. SYG laws apply to everyone equally regardless of race. If the law is applied in a racially disproportionate manner, then the problem rests not with the law but the persons upholding it. IMO, that is not a good reason to get rid of a law designed to protect victims of assault.
For example, as Americans we have the right to be protected from illegal search and seizure. However black persons are far more commonly the victims of racial profiling and illegal search/seizure by police. This does not mean that we should throw away search and seizure laws due to racial disparity in application... instead we should demand punishment levied against racist authorities. SYG is no different.

[EOTE]

6. Way to throw out non-sequitors there.

Nothing you've said negates anything that I've said. And the fact is, these laws disproportionately and negatively affect minorities. If you're a minority invoking SYG against a white person, all other things being equal, you're far, far less likely to get a favorable verdict than if the opposite are true. I'm not speaking about minority on minority crime, so you're just muddying the waters there. The point I'm making is that normal people know that there's an extremely slim chance of ever needing to kill someone. And if they ever DO need to do such a thing, they know that the justice system already favors by default people who need to protect themselves. A good number of people buying this NRA backed insurance are simply looking to make it easier for them to kill someone. It's a terrible thing which preys upon the fearful and makes them more so. And as for your comment "It's called life insurance". That's equally sick. Sure, we can't stop these fucking sick gun nuts from mindlessly killing minorities, but at least their children will get a few bucks for no longer having fathers in their lives.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

8. In your case of black-on-white homicide, SYG is likely beneficial.

SYG is not "invoked" against anybody. SYG are a set of laws that set the standard for and shift burden of proof to the prosocution meaning the state must now PROVE the killer did NOT act in self defense. In practice, SYG means that a conviction must be based on physical or eyewitness evidence. By definition, SYG moves the case further down the path of "innocent until proven guilty" thereby making the any case of self defense easier to win. Prior to SYG and CD laws, a defendant usually had to convince the jury that a killing was self defense - this can be more difficult with racial prejudice and a black defendant likely talking to a mostly/all white jury.

If you are black and just killed a white person in self defense... you should hope there are SYG laws because now a prosocution has to present facts that disprove your story. Regardless of your skin complexion, SYG dictates your story stands until PROVEN otherwise.

[EOTE]

10. No, it certainly is not.

Because once again, it's applied extremely selectively. It's far more likely that a white person is successful in using SYG as a valid defense against killing a black person than vice versa.

And you say: "If you are black and just killed a white person in self defense... you should hope there are SYG laws because now a prosocution has to present facts that disprove your story. Regardless of your skin complexion, SYG dictates your story stands until PROVEN otherwise."

That would be all well and good if it weren't for everything that I've said. It's a fact, these laws are applied with racial bias. There are no ifs, ands or buts here, that's all there is to it.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

11. It sounds as if the problem rests with the police... not the law.

I don't see how that is a problem of the SYG law as written. SYG is a law designed to protect supposed victims of assault from further victimization via our legal system. Racist law enforcement misuses dozens of laws everyday. It's not the SYG laws that sets the stage for racial inequality of application... it is 100% the fault of enforcers for pursuing minority crimes differently. I don't see how repealing SYG changes anything except removing some protectino for actual victims.

For example, as I stated before, Americans we have the right to be protected from illegal search and seizure. However black persons are far more commonly the victims of racial profiling and illegal search/seizure by police. This does not mean that we should throw away search and seizure laws due to racial disparity in application... instead we should demand punishment levied against racist authorities until equal enforcement is applied. SYG is no different.

[99Forever]

4. Nitpick at trivial nothings, much?

Ever hear of hyperbole?


Good grief.

[Ichingcarpenter]

13. Well, they tend to not look at facts

it was an attack.

[99Forever]

14. It's a cartoon..

... intended to make a point, which it does quite well, judging from your NRA kneejerk reaction.

[LanternWaste]

7. I think that hyperbole is part and parcel of both humor and satire

I think that hyperbole is part and parcel of both humor and satire-- neither of which require or are predicated on being "factually correct."

That's kinda the thing with cartoon, yes? Another thing about satire and humor is the righteous indignation brought out by those feeling targeted by... well, mere humor.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

9. In the words of White Goodman....

Touché.

[WillyT]

15. K & R !!!