Why Safe Spaces Have No Place In Higher Education

[Exilednight]

The job of a university is to prepare its students for the outside world. A world where they must maintain a job with people who will often disagree with them, view them as less than equals and treat them in an unfair manner. This problem isn’t strictly unique to people of color, but it is often compounded by the color of their skin, the ignorance of white people and cultural norms.

It is, also, the job of universities to combat ignorance, fight stereotypes and disassemble cultural norms that harm the wellbeing the future prospects of future graduates.

Segregation, whether self-imposed, or forcefully imposed is still segregation. When people fail to meet their challenges head on, they will certainly meet with failure. When universities fail to prepare their students to meet these challenges, then they fail their students.

The best thing a university can do is open dialogue. Universities are supposed to be places where ideas are openly exchanged, minds enlightened and truths discovered. If universities start, or in some cases like UCLA that already have, allowing students to self-segregate then they are failing not only their current crop of students, but all of their future students too.

In the outside world beyond the walls of universities there is no place to hide. Businesses do not have safe spaces to retreat to anytime someone is slighted. There is no safe space when walking through a grocery store and seeing an obvious racist walking down the aisle. There is no safe space to retreat to if you get pulled over while driving while black.

The only true way to defeat racism is to meet it head-on. We must inform those we disagree with. We must educate those that run the opposite way when they see someone with a different skin color. We must demand equality for those that do not have it.

Our greatest civil rights leaders did not retreat to a safe space. John Lewis marched with MLK, and later went on to become one of our current greatest members of Congress. Rosa Parks did not retreat, she held her ground and within three years of her death at the ripe old age of 92 she fell three years short of seeing our first African-American President. Nelson Mandela led an entire country out of apartheid and went on to win a Nobel Peace Prize along with becoming the 1st President of South Africa.

It is, also, proven that multi-culturalism works. The more people of different backgrounds live, work and interact with each other the more understanding and accepting they become of each other. The more universities allow for self-segregation the more they are ignoring their own teachings, and the more they leave their students unprepared for the outside world.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

1. Yeah, but ... stalkers and trolls have no place in higher education either.

I may have more to say later because I see points for all three sides of the issue.

[Warpy]

2. They're going to be out there in real life

Hiding from them in college is not going to prepare people to deal with them instead of being passive and looking for places to run to in order to hide.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

3. It's NOT hiding. It's gaining a rest before being forced to confront them again and again. . . . nt

[hunter]

4. Oh bother, not this shit again...

Like I said in another thread, there's a bunch of terrified white guys afraid people will stop listening to their superior wisdom.

I mock them.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

5. It seems one has appropriated a Native American cultural image. . . . . nt

[Exilednight]

7. Actually, this has nothing to do with "superior wisdom" Studies have

been conducted by sociologists of many ethnicities and have come to the same conclusion.

If white superior wisdom is the problem for you, maybe you should take it up with the white Dean of UCLA who allows it.

[hunter]

12. Please, tell me more...

.

[Exilednight]

15. I'm waiting for you to actually make a valid point.

Or at the least write something of substance.

[OneGrassRoot]

59. I know I've missed a lot of interaction...

and I'm just perusing this thread now, even though obviously members have interacted in various threads about this and similar topics. Sorry I'm out of the loop.

That said, would you please enlighten me about what you're talking about when you say:

"Studies have been conducted by sociologists of many ethnicities and have come to the same conclusion."

What conclusions and what studies?

Thank you.

[BumRushDaShow]

6. "Segregation, whether self-imposed, or forcefully imposed is still segregation"

"Segregation" has generally been used as a legal term to denote dejure separation (by law).

Part of the problem is mindset where having had the experience of 4 years in a college with 25,000 whites and 400 blacks, whenever the couple of us black kids sat together at dinner (since some of us came from the same city), some whites would exclaim - "Why do blacks always sit together?" while completely ignoring a dining hall filled with hundreds of whites all "sitting together".

I get the sudden hullaboo about same-race domiciles but the better question is to ask "why?" rather than knee-jerk attacking one attempt at putting a bandaid on a problem that the majority population in this country refuses to confront.

You tick off a list of blacks who attempted to bring about change. Where is your list of whites who have done the same?

[Exilednight]

9. Segregation:

[seg-ri-gey-shuh n]
noun
The act or practice of segregating; a setting apart or separation of people or things from others or from the main body or group

But you knew I wasn't using the legal form, just the good old plain English dictionary form



If you really want to know why there are no white leaders in the movement, then I suggest you start reading every piece of work you can find by Nelson Mandela and MLK. They both, and quite regularly, address why POC must be the leaders of their movements.

[BumRushDaShow]

19. "But you knew I wasn't using the legal form"

Let's begin the dialog -

As a middle-aged black woman, "segregation" has ONE meaning to me in the context of the discussion of "race". You have just undervalued my entire worldview and assumed that I see the world as you do. I don't. So you cannot define to me or lecture to me what I am supposed to say, think, be, interpret, or discuss.

Lesson 1 - Step back from the perspective of "privilege" and reverse the worldviews and then maybe the discussion can move forward... one day.

[Exilednight]

22. And you should do the same.

You know nothing of my race, sex, religion or background.

I hope you really take your own lesson to heart.

[BumRushDaShow]

23. I don't have to know

I identified myself and gave you my answer. You take what I wrote about what you wrote to heart yourself. It's apparently difficult for you to articulate.

[Exilednight]

26. I had no problem articulating my message. You just failed to come up

with evidence as to why segregation, whether forced or self imposed, does have a place in higher education.

What empirical evidence is there?

[BumRushDaShow]

29. Tell me what the purpose of Georgetown University is?

Why does it exist?

[Rex]

18. The knee jerking is at an all time high.

The concern feels, insincere at best imo.

[Rex]

8. Bullies have no place in education, safe places do.

At least the garbage about it being the same as segregation went down in flames.

[Exilednight]

10. What exactly do you take objection to and why?

[Rex]

11. Nothing, just pointing out the obvious.

[Exilednight]

13. Since you don't take objection to the OP, I am glad to see you agree with me.

[Rex]

14. Well you can imagine what you want to, free country.

I made my point, you don't have to like it.

[Exilednight]

16. I'm still trying to figure out what your point is. You just make accusations with no facts.

[Rex]

17. I said bullies have no place in education, safe places do.

Was that really so hard to understand?

[Exilednight]

20. Then make your case for safe places. There's no evidence that it works.

[Rex]

21. According to you, who as far as I can tell shows no knowledge on the subject.

[Exilednight]

27. ah, ad hominem attack. The usual goto when there is no evidence

for your position.

[Rex]

31. Your OP is full of things that are historically wrong.

And since your position has no merit, why would I bother? You cannot handle a truth, sorry but maybe try to become more objective?

Up to you. Evidence has nothing to do with your OP, you made up your mind. Anyone can see that, have you not noticed the other folks telling you the same thing?

No probably not, you will just not 'notice'.

[Exilednight]

34. What exactly is historically wrong?

Are universities not a place for an exchange of ideas?

Has nearly every peer reviewed study determined that mulyi-culturalism works?

Did MLK, Nelson Mandela and Rosa Parks not stand up and confront the problem head on?

Please explain these things if you think I am wrong.

[Rex]

51. Those things are not wrong you are over simplifying the issue on purpose.

Not clever at all, but good luck with that. Maybe you can address everyone else in this thread that is explaining why you are not listening to them at all.

[Exilednight]

55. Emotion vs facts. if it's oversimplified, then it will not be hard to prove.

[kwassa]

24. False outrage. White people offended that blacks choose to socialize with each other.

Aside from being OP #85 on this subject.

You might read DU before you start posting. Just another suggestion.

The job of a university is to prepare its students for the outside world. A world where they must maintain a job with people who will often disagree with them, view them as less than equals and treat them in an unfair manner. This problem isn’t strictly unique to people of color, but it is often compounded by the color of their skin, the ignorance of white people and cultural norms.

So, they must go to a university with people who will often disagree with them, view them as less than equals and treat them in an unfair manner?

Segregation, whether self-imposed, or forcefully imposed is still segregation. When people fail to meet their challenges head on, they will certainly meet with failure. When universities fail to prepare their students to meet these challenges, then they fail their students.

How do you know what is best for black students? How many black people do you know well? How many close black friends do you have?

How do you get to decide what is in their best interests?

[Rex]

28. What about all skin colors that are bullied day in and out on school campuses?

The OP cannot handle that much either.

And in regards to history - to pretend great leaders never retreated into a sanctuary (whatever and where ever that was) to process the horrible atrocities fostered upon them and others like them, daily - is ignorance of typical human behavior.

We all look into the void. We all have to find a way to cope. Safe places are something progressives should support.

[Exilednight]

33. Where is the evidence to suggest otherwise?

To answer your first question: Yes, providing they choose to go to a university at all. Everyone who attends university goes to school with people who view them in this manner.

To answer your second question, I have two black daughters, a black mom in a part of Chicago that was mixed race.

What evidence is there that safe spaces work?

And yes I've read a few of the other threads, but non made rational arguments.

By the replies to this thread, along with lack of honest discussion and everyone just throwing accusations. I can see why threads fail.

If these spaces are so great, then where's the studies? Every study on mulyi-culturalism proves that it benefits society.

[kwassa]

60. What evidence is there that safe spaces work?

The onus is really on you to prove they don't, as that is your assertion in the OP. I would point out that the mere existence of black residences for decades on college campuses would indicate their value. Black students value them enough to use them.

I would also suggest that it is up to black students to decide what is best for them, not white outsiders.

I assume you must also be opposed to historically black colleges, as well.

[Igel]

25. There are a lot of safe spaces.

People aren't content with them and want ever increasing safe spaces.

Because every time they neutralize their enemy in another public space to make it safe, they gain a victory over their enemy and impose their will over yet more space.

When I was in school I had safe spaces. Lots of them. I had my room (not as safe as you'd think, what with a roomie on the hook with Campus Crusade for Christ). I belonged to organizations that had their own spaces, at least at times. There were quiet places on campus I could go. The library was safe. Most classrooms were safe. Lots o' safe spaces. No shortage of them.

Unsafe spaces? Those where a lot of other people went. They could say what they wanted. I had no more right to be there than they did, and I could say what I wanted. If I couldn't tolerate what they said, I could leave. Or grow in tolerance. That's considered a bad thing, these days, unless it's "growing to tolerate me as I am." That's what others should do, and it's a virtue.

I had fewer choices in my classes than people do today. And yet seldom was I forced into an unsafe space. Unless it was a space that was generally anti-religion or anti-my-politics at the time. Lots of that kind of not-safe space. Then again, the lack of safety was mostly perceived. My faith and politics had little to do with my grade, and the professors' views also had little to do with my grade. I wasn't paranoid enough to think that my organic chem professor or my Russian professor would lower my grade because I kept a 7th day sabbath (even though my EE professor was clearly on the hunt to hurt Jews, saying that my people had oppressed his and why should he honor a 7th-day sabbath when he couldn't take off Friday for prayers? To this day I wonder how the Irish oppressed the Turks--was there a siege of Ankara that I missed, ethnic cleansing of County Cork of their indigenous Turks, did the Irish oppress the Turks by not providing sufficient numbers of captives and slaves? But I digress about a probably now-dead bigot and racist.)

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Since there's nothing in the news about "self-segregation" at UCLA, or segregation,

you better tell us what you're concerned about.

[Rex]

32. Whatever you reply, it will go unnoticed.

If I had a nickle for every time I fall for this type of OP.

[Exilednight]

39. It doesn't go unnoticed, you just can't win a debate on emotion.

You fight arguments with facts, and I have to see any that refute my argument.

If safe spaces work, then there needs to be evidence.

When schools tear down barriers, it is proven that all students benefit. The best school I ever went to was one without walls where we were forced to confront uncomfortable situations. 100% of the students went on to college and out of that 92% graduated college. Very few schools ever achieve that. It wasn't a school white privileged kids, it was mixed race and every socio-economic background possible, and it wasn't a small school. 1100 kids in my graduation class.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. The point is I'm asking you for some facts, and you're supplying emotion instead

What has happened at UCLA that has you annoyed?

[Exilednight]

42. I'm not annoyed. I'm just pointing out the obvious. Institutions of

higher education are created to tear down barriers, not build them

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. I'm going to assume nothing has happened at UCLA, since you are unable to describe it

So, problem solved. You're not annoyed, and none of us know of any problem at UCLA. We can ignore this thread from now on, can't we?

[Exilednight]

46. I use UCLA as an example because they. hose to put up barriers

that may be self imposed by students with no evidence of a problem on their campus.

Yes, that's a problem.

[Rex]

52. So you know more then UCLA does.

[Exilednight]

56. Another as hominem attack. Get back to me when you do some research.

[Rex]

50. You seem to think you can win a debate using emotions and no facts.

Good luck.

[Exilednight]

35. What do you call it when you separate people by race?

[muriel_volestrangler]

36. You better tell us what you're concerned about

Since there's nothing in the news about self-segregation, or segregation, at UCLA.

[Exilednight]

37. What do you call it when you separate people by race?

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. Multiculturalism?

While the term has come to encompass a variety of prescriptive claims, it is fair to say that defenders of multiculturalism reject the ideal of the “melting pot” in which members of minority groups are expected to assimilate into the dominant culture in favor of an ideal in which they can maintain their distinctive collective identities and practices.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/multiculturalism/

But you claim (without evidence) that everyone says multiculturalism works.

This is why you need to explain what you're concerned about.

[Exilednight]

41. Read 30 peer reviewed studies and then come back and tell me if I am

wrong.

Sure, anyone can find a single, or possibly even 30, that say it doesn't work, but the overwhelming consensus is that it does.

The latest studies on education show that when you mix students based on race, economics and cultural backgrounds that all students benefit. The average child from a poor neighborhood raises their grade around 15%, and the average white student from an affluent neighborhood raises their grade about 4%.

Multiculturalism describes the existence, acceptance, and/or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an aboriginal ethnic group and foreigner ethnic groups. I can find definitions too.

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. There are 30 peer reviewed studies about something happening at UCLA?

Links, please. Or just explain in your own words what you think is happening at UCLA. That'd be a start, but we'll need to check to see if you've understood it properly.

Yes, you've got a definition for multiculturalism, and it seems to mean something rather like self-segregation ("multiple cultural traditions&quot at a university ("within a single jurisdiction&quot . So you appear to be saying self-segregation works.

[Exilednight]

47. 30 peer reviewed studies on multiculturalism in general. A

[romanic]

45. I've just come to the conclusion

that those who want or support "safe spaces" want minorites and other marginalized people to forever be afraid or unprepared for challenges out there in society.

It's been eye-opening to see others view minorites like they're incapable of defending themselves or learning how to survive in a tough world. Even other black posters seem to have little faith in them. Very sad.

[loyalsister]

48. When will people stop exploiting civil rights leaders

Your claim is no better then that made by someone who said Colin Kaepernick dishonored MLK and every other famous black person they could think of.
I think it is safe to say that when they applied for college, the goals of the vast majority of students were not to follow in the steps of Martin Luther King Jr. And, it is not their responsibility to educate folks who are clueless about race.

A friend of mine once said "I am not your teachable moment" to someone who has asking intrusive questions. I think that is appropriate here, too.

[Exilednight]

54. Show me where I claimed every student needs to be MLK.

Everyone has a role to play in the civil rights struggle. It's the job of universities to prepare their students for the outside world. Is it not?

[loyalsister]

57. It is the job of universities to provide and facilitate educational opportunities

It is not the job of universities to force individuals to serve as examples for individuals who have not been sivilized in their homes or other educational pursuits.

You didn't claim every student needs to be MLK, but you did make an offensive outside suggestion that black youth should consider the leaders of the Civil Rights movements when they give some thought to their personal feelings about the environment in which they live. They are not obligated to do so. I would hope that their priority at that age would be to evaluate their circumstances as they are and figure out the best way to succeed.

[MineralMan]

49. Actually, entire campuses, and everywhere, need to be safe

places. Any time people are harassed or treated badly over some characteristic, Everyone should immediately insist that such behavior stop. If it does not, then those who harass should be barred from access to that campus or place.

Make every place a safe place for everyone who wishes to be there peacefully. Exclude the assholes. Simple. Zero tolerance for assholes and bigots would work just find, I think.

[Rex]

53. And that is the point ignored by the OP.

The OP needs this to stay toward a certain narrative and ignores what everyone is telling them. Go fig.

[TDale313]

58. So tired of people whining that they don't get to...

be racist, sexist, homophobic whenever and wherever they want with no consequences. Guess what? When these little trolls get into the work force they will likely find that that kind of behavior can actually cost them jobs. Not always, but certainly you can't always get away with speech or behavior that reflects poorly on your bosses.

Schools have the right to say some behaviors/comments are disruptive to the learning experience and create a hostile environment and just won't be tolerated.