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[Dream Girl]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Dream Girl) on Sun Oct 2, 2016, 10:18 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Warpy]

1. Incapacitated? Define it.

Are we saying talkative and euphoric people are incapacitated, or are we reserving that for people who are having trouble standing, walking, and forming words? Because if it's the latter, most males aren't able to achieve an erection, alcohol being a depressant. Women can be raped by predators even when they're completely unconscious.

Refer your son to this:

[WestCoastLib]

38. You are making a couple incorrect assumptions here

Because if it's the latter, most males aren't able to achieve an erection, alcohol being a depressant. Women can be raped by predators even when they're completely unconscious.

Now, the OP here is dangerously flirting with a line of thinking that can and will be used an excuse for rape, and even an attack, by the 4chan world, on what they see as SJWs. And as the father of two girls, I won't abide by the hijacking concerns and efforts to improve in this manner.

However, at the same time, if we want to have completely open and honest discussions of this, we should be willing to address some uncomfortable realities as well, and you are looking at it a bit more simplistically than the reality.

1. It's not really the case for many males that they can't get an erection while passed out (or near it). Especially young males.

2. P in V penetration is not required for rape. What about oral, or manual sex?

I do think there is a legitimate question in there. At what point are we considering someone Incapacitated by being drunk? It is when they can physically no longer move? If that's the case, then there is no question. The assaulter (male or female) would always be the person who still has the motor facility to initiate contact.

[mrmpa]

2. Yes....

Tell your son to keep it in his pants. Only have an encounter when he & his partner are capable of consent. No means no. If he's hot & bothered and in bed with her & she says no, then he needs to retreat from the situation.

[Doreen]

3. NO IS NO

It does not matter if it is a woman who says it or a man who says it and it does not matter how drunk the person may be. They were told no and they kept going. Things are harder to do when drunk and it takes more effort to rape someone than not to so the "I was just wasted" is not an excuse. This just makes it easier for the old "she was wasted man" attitude to make rape OK. Some men just make the right choice and do not have sex when the woman is drunk. It is best for her and for him.

[pnwmom]

128. That's not the issue. If neither one says YES, did either one positively consent?

Is positive consent needed in order for it not to be rape? Some people think so, and they think if a woman consents while drunk it is rape. Hence, the OP's question. What if both are too drunk to legally consent, but neither objects?

[Hekate]

4. This is a difficult topic that would probably be better served elsewhere than GD

Look at the left side of your screen. Scroll down to Topics, open that, and click on Gender & Orientation.

If you are sincerely seeking answers, you are likely to find a discussion there, perhaps in Sexual Assault Survivors Support.

[Hekate]

42. First, let me say I liked the "Tea" stick figures. Second...

I was afraid that the thread might get hijacked. Apparently I was wrong, for which I am thankful.

I have a son, too. Mine is now 38 and married; yours is still negotiating the rapids. We love our sons -- that much I know.

[INdemo]

104. If your son is so drunk that he does not know if he is having sex or not

or if he does not know his female companion is making an advance then he really needs to be in a Hospital EMERGENCY Room because his blood/alcohol level is dangerously high and life threatening

[Skittles]

5. typically, alcohol is used as an EXCUSE by men when they rape

but a woman is BLAMED for the man's behavior if SHE has used alcohol

if someone is incapacitated DUE TO ANYTHING, having sex with them is RAPE - if your son is not able to comprehend that fact, perhaps stick figures may help him:

[obamanut2012]

33. you should be ashamed

of this OP and your responses here and in the other thread

i see you with clear eyes

[closeupready]

40. Completely and absolutely disagree with you. It's an EXCELLENT question.

[obamanut2012]

118. lolz

No.

[Skittles]

94. I do too

not even going to bother with this one

[niyad]

50. thank you!!

[Skittles]

97. the people who claim they don't get it

are either rapists or rapist apologists

it really is that simple

[niyad]

120. yes, it certainly is.

[pnwmom]

129. You're not answering the OP's question. If neither one objects to sex, ,but BOTH partners are

legally incapacitated, are they both raping each other, or does the rape only go in one direction? Are we saying that only men can rape?

[KittyWampus]

160. If neither OBJECTS, then neither SAID NO. It's really that simple.

If neither person said no and is not objecting, it's not rape.

And the whole "incapacitated" thing ends up being an abstraction which some absolutely try to use to make excuses or to muddy the water.

[pnwmom]

161. But if a person is incapacitated, are they capable of giving consent?

And if they both are incapacitated, how could either give consent?

[KittyWampus]

162. If neither objects that is a non-factor. It is merely an abstraction and non of your business.

[etherealtruth]

6. If two guys are drunk (guy A and guy B) ....

If guy B passes out and guy A takes all of guy B's money from his wallet is it still stealing?


If guy B is incapacitated and guy A takes guy B's car keys out of his pocket, hops in guy b's car and wraps it round a tree ... did guy A do anything wrong? Even if guy B has always let guy A borrow his car in the past?

[obamanut2012]

34. WHY DOES GUY A HAVE TO BE TEH ADULT?!11!1

major sarcasm

[etherealtruth]

36. Eeee gad .... that's why my examples involved 2 men and crimes other than rape

... albeit, stealing is far less egregious than rape

Why is it so easy to understand that if someone is really, really drunk its not ok to take money from their wallet or purse ... yet (for some) they can't understand that "sex" with the same individual is rape (regardless of how drunk the perpetrator is).

WtF?

[smirkymonkey]

88. Thank YOU!

This, right here!

[Warren DeMontague]

7. unfortunately, this conversation gets a lot of absolutism on people having sex after drinking

excuse the pun.

For instance, you will have people here strenuously go off at length that no one should ever have sex, ever, period, if they've been drinking any alcohol. Doesn't matter if you're a married couple and you each had a glass of wine with dinner and this is the first time in 3 years the kids are off watching some elmo bullshit with the babysitter.... NO SEX, YOU TWO! I've seen that argument made, here. Really.

Yeah, that's realistic. Honestly, I suspect we're not allowed to have sex if we've taken a couple advils or binged watched netflix without getting 8 hours of sleep the night before. The rules some people have invented that other folks are supposed to follow, are pretty strict, you know


but "incapacitated"- that seems to me to be the real point, here. Incapacitated enough to not be capable of giving consent? Of communicating consent? Or even to where people don't really know what they're doing?

"incapacitated" means lacking capacity, and if someone is lacking the capacity to meaningfully consent, then that means exactly what it means, legal implications included. And even if "both parties" are incapacitated; well, it's incumbent upon anyone who inebriates themselves to the point of incapacitation, to still behave responsibly. If you get blackout drunk but get behind the wheel of your car and kill someone, you're still responsible, even if you were 'incapacitated'.


In such a situation the sex isn't going to be very good anyway, so probably both would be better drinking a bunch of water, taking some vitamin B, and sleeping it off. I'd think the advice to a son- or daughter- in that situation is, if you are so drunk you or your partner don't really know what you're doing, or you're not totally sure either of you knows what you're doing- well, to put it mildly, maybe it's not the time for romance.

I also don't think there's some epidemic of women hooking up with guys, regretting it the next day, and suddenly deciding to call it rape.

But the idea that no one - particularly when they're in college - is ever going to have sex while under the influence of any alcohol, strikes me as ludicrously out of touch with how actual humans behave in reality.

[jamzrockz]

138. I think if either partner is incapacitated

then it is clearly rape. I actually don't think this is the scenario the OP was trying to address. Anyway, when I went to college, I remember way too many instances where I have witnessed two underaged students who are not previously in a relationship having sex and were drunk at a house party. You see this and you just think to yourself "would this girl had agreed to the sex had she not been loosened up by the alcohol?" and the answer is probably yes in some of those situations.

I think the OP question is best addressed in a situation like this where there is a real grey area.

Btw, I have noticed something about drunk sex which I had with a girl who I was in a relationship. Anyway, I have noticed that drunken sex gets less enjoyable as I got older. Now when I drink, it makes me sleepy with a weak boner

My advise to my future son would be to stay away from alcohol and especially house parties with alcohols, no good comes out of those places. And if you must go to a house party, go with your well established girl friend.

[6chars]

8. Seems you have your answer

The man is responsible for not getting the woman's consent. Chivalry lives.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

53. BULLSHIT! Women are always held accountable for their actions and are blamed for what they did

Last edited Thu Sep 29, 2016, 01:46 PM - Edit history (1)

"to provoke" the man's actions. Women are more likely to not report rape or assault because she knows that she'll be questioned and likely doubted.

The bottom line: Teach your fucking sons, boys and men to stop allowing their fucking hormones to get in the way of what's right. There's always been pressures put on girls and women not to do this or not to do that; or, don't wear this or don't wear that; or don't walk at night...what the fuck ever! If historically there is more pressure on women to "act right" and "dress right" so that a boy or man doesn't rape or assault her, then surely we can do better educating boys and men on how to not violate a girl or woman. It's simple.

Stop crying about feminism.

[niyad]

59. exactly!!!!!

[yardwork]

9. There are very specific statutes about this.

[Orrex]

10. I'm sorry to hear that you suffered a sexual assault

I appreciate your effort to understand the situation in a way that will help your son.

Others here have already given great answers, including references to the excellent tea metaphor.


I'll add only this: If your attacker had been incapacitated, would it still have been sexual assault?

[Orrex]

17. It's always ugly. Thank you for sharing.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

11. Teach our sons and men to be responsible...just as pressure is put on girls/women for the same.

[mythology]

12. My personal rule is if I think either of us is drunk

and there isn't a solid preexisting relationship, my zipper stays up. Not because I fear a rape allegation, but because I don't ever want to put a woman in a position to have to even consider whether or not it was rape and even more so I don't want to be in a position of considering if I raped somebody. I carry around enough guilt for things I didn't do, I don't need to carry around guilt for something I did.

I think if you have a preexisting relationship, you have more leeway in terms of knowing when your partner is consenting, but I think in a one night stand/hookup situation, it's better to err on the side of caution. Get the other person's contact information and catch up with them later when they are sober.

There is a difference between a woman who's had a beer and can carry on a conversation, is aware of things and a woman who's done too many keg stands and needs to hold the wall to stand up. In the former, if you both want sex, have at it. In the latter, make sure she gets home, preferably with a friend in case she starts vomiting and can't take care of herself.

Or if your son would like a simpler rule he can always ask himself "What would Brock Turner do?" and that will give him an excellent guide of what not to do.

[malaise]

13. Better question

As an adult are you responsible for not being incapacitated?
Teach your son to drink in moderation.

[malaise]

21. No - in these parts parents introduced us to beer and wine

quite young so most of us never sought after alcohol. That's not to say we don't have young folks with drinking problems. I find that the more things are banned is the more desirable they appear.

[geek tragedy]

18. two people getting drunk and consensually screwing isn't rape

on the other hand, it's also generally pretty lousy sex that leads to a lot of regrets, best case scenario

[jberryhill]

70. You know it is not that simple

The OP is not well-stated, but the proposition is "Neither party was capable of giving consent. What result?"

[geek tragedy]

93. both should be treated equally, assuming there's no element of coersion etc.

[jberryhill]

95. I think Nye Bevan nails it down thread

Both parties can be guilty.

[geek tragedy]

106. too drunk to consent but sober enough for a mens rea finding? nt

[jberryhill]

113. I'd have to see a relevant sexual assault statute

But voluntary intoxication doesn't work for bank robbery either.

I think you can develop an intent to do all sorts of things while otherwise not competent to provide consent.

[mythology]

24. You do need to remember false rape accusations are rare

It's highly unlikely he will suffer one. Statistically speaking, a guy is more likely to be a rapist than to be falsely accused.

If it's something to be concerned about, then don't get drunk enough to not recognize if she's consenting. One doesn't need to drink to that point to have fun. Be willing to pass up chances if you don't know she's into it, because the best way to not be accused of rape in regards to drunken sex is to not engage in it. Also drunken sex leads to other more likely problems like not using protection against pregnancy or stis.

[athena]

123. Exactly.

This thread is offensive. It's almost an excuse for rape. Because after all, if being drunk is a defense for rape, then what prevents rapists from having a drink before proceeding to rape their victim?

[demgurl]

48. When both are drunk....

Then no one can give consent period. You are asking an opinion if a bunch of people who are not necessarily lawyers and so I hope you understand you will not get solid legal advice. That being said, I believe what people are trying to rightly tell you is if your son does not get drunk enough then he is always in control of his faculties and can avoid a rape charge by not engaging a female who has been excessively drinking and whose words are very much slurred. When your judgement is not impaired then you can make better, more informed, decisions.

That being said, there are times when both drink and the guy did rape the girl. This is what happened with me and my ex-husband. He bought alcohol and encouraged me to keep up. He kept my glass full and chided me to keep up with him. The next day I could not even remember if we had had sex. Twenty years later he tells me the only way he could get sex in the 80's was by using alcolhol. It dawned on me what he had purposely done in order to lose his virginity. I confronted him and he got very quiet. Yes, we are both incapacitated. Yes, he raped me.


I do not believe anyone has said if both are incapacitated then the guy raped the girl so there is no wtf moment there to deal with. You really have to go on a case by case basis but all things being equal, no one is raped (most of the time) if both are incapacitated.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. Your son is terrified of that happening?

That's, like, super weird.

Just sayin'...

[alcibiades_mystery]

44. Oh, OK

I can see that, I guess.

[Adrahil]

23. Well, yeah.

You are "incapacitated" when you drive drunk. You are still responsible for the people you kill.

You are still responsible for crimes you commit while impaired by alcohol or drugs.

Duh.

As for your son. Make sure he knows to not have sex with anyone who doesn't really, actually want to have sex with him.

[WDIM]

26. Both parties have to be conscience enough to say yes

Passed out drunk is rape man or woman.

Its is not rape just because somebody had a few drinks though no means no and yes means yes drunk or not.

[Skittles]

103. conscious

[kwassa]

119. Conscience works, too.

[Else You Are Mad]

27. My take on it is

That if people have a few drinks and are aware of the situation but both want sex, it is clearly not rape. Alcohol, by itself, does not make consensual sex rape.The problem comes when both or either person is too drunk to understand the situation. In that case, it is more likely that consent was not given even if one party believed that consent was granted. But each situation is so fact specific that the only advice that one could give is be careful and no means no even if you think otherwise.

[ismnotwasm]

28. Jesus Christ

No means no. There is no "changed her mind" in rape. It means consent was not offered and/or consent was not accepted.



If your son is going around screwing drunk women--sounds like relative strangers as well, if he thinks they will "change their mind"- to the point he can't tell whether consent is present, maybe the discussion should revolve around alcohol consumption amounts and stranger danger.

[obamanut2012]

29. ....

Continuation form an earlier thread -- I'll PM you the link.

[ismnotwasm]

32. Holy Shit

That's really bad

[obamanut2012]

35. yuppers

[salin]

108. I would love the context

It was a spate of threads of this nature a number of years ago that led me to step back from participating as much at the DU. Though, the general tone of the threads seem to be much more evolved (or evolving) in recent years.

[etherealtruth]

68. Saying "no" is not required ... giving consent is required

"sex" without consent is not "sex" it is rape

[athena]

151. Your son is only 16?

Please see my other post, below. I am starting to get the sense that there is much more going on here than the question you're asking.

As far as your son is concerned, if you and your spouse have taught him to respect women as his equals, he will be fine. If he is not, then his actions will be fully his own responsibility, not yours.

Peace.

[ismnotwasm]

89. You mean if two people drink until they black out or are otherwise impaired?

Then have mutual sex because it seems like a good idea at the time? No. that's not rape. unless coercion is involved. In fact these circumstances happen all the time. I would guess every day and many times around the world. People hook up. Somewhere it's happening right now.

Unfortunately somewhere someone is being raped as well.


Anecdotally, when I was younger and unmarried-- I set out to get laid while partying (I'm female--now there's some different standards for you) if I slept with someone I regretted in the morning, I owned it. As did my admittedly "wild" friends. We had good laughs about it. I never knew one women to accuse someone of rape under those circumstances. I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm saying it's rare.

The women AND men--since that seems to be at issue here--I've known who have been raped were raped under clear circumstances. See, --and as a survivor you probably know this--when you are a victim of rape--it's not "having sex" it's a total and disgusting violation.

[ismnotwasm]

107. That's because rape is taken slightly more seriously these days

Through the work of a lot of activists. It is still, however, criminally under-prosecuted

If a person is coerced, to make up a situation, say a couple goes for a drive--they head out a few miles from anywhere. The rapists stops the car and tells the victim--"I am not letting you out of this car until you give me a kiss" the kiss turns to groping, the victim struggling, saying "no" to the rapist, Instead of stopping says 'What's the harm, it feels good doesn't it?" 'I'm not going to hurt you" "hey I bought you dinner" "my car, my rules" --and continues to prevent the victim from leaving, while she is distinctly saying "no" but is feeling more and more fear, because his actions are directly contradicting his words---until the victim 'gives in" perhaps just to get away, perhaps to not be stranded ---at one time that wouldn't have been considered rape, and would be difficult prosecute to this day.

Consent is a discussion that needed and needs to happen, and to continue. I don't feel males bear more legal burden or rather that it is disproportionately distributed, because rape is, by and large, a male disorder.

[haele]

30. Here's what I would say to the young man.

Son, before you head out into the world, let me tell you a few things about being an adult.

First: Everyone has the right and responsibility to own their sexuality. You are not ever, ever entitled to someone else's sexuality just because you feel horny and want to exercise your penis.
That being said, here's a few rules about responsible adult sex.

1. Anyone who wants you to get too drunk to be aware of what you're doing is a tool that either wants to take advantage of you, or is a loser who wants to surround himself/herself with equally loser friends. While it's okay to get a bit tipsy around other people, never get so drunk or stoned you can't be in control of yourself - that's just stupid, letting the alcohol or drug take control of your life.

2. Only the initial and enthusiastic "Yes" is consent to have sex. People might be too confused or conflicted to say "no" when they don't want sex. Lack of a qualified yes or no, or having to be badgered or "convinced" to have sex is not consent. And just because you're a "nice guy" or you paid for dinner or drinks doesn't mean you deserve sex from a woman you may want to have sex with - you have to be upfront with the fact you want to have sex with her and are looking for that enthusiastic yes as consent. If you're stuck in the friend zone, don't try to change it unless or until the other party is willing to go the next step.

If someone is not coherent, in an altered or overly emotional state, or is drunk, there is no consent; lack of consent when having sex can always be considered rape.

3. Likewise, sexual coercion or sex being used to control someone is rape, no matter what the gender. Since you are a man, you will tend to have the greater body strength and appearance that can be coercive to someone who is smaller and perhaps less certain of what they really want. If you have to keep asking until she (or he) says yes, or if you have to trick her, or if you have to get them inebriated before they say yes, then it's rape.
A warning - there are a very few sociopathic women who will choose and try to coerce men they want to gain control over to have sex to get that control - so if you don't let your little head take over your thinking, and remain sober enough to recognize when someone is trying to convince you to have sex, you won't become a victim of either a woman looking for a Mr. to rescue her, or of a woman who just wants someone to take responsibility for her shortcomings. Most women you meet aren't like that.

So whether you go out and party with your friends, or go out looking for casual sex, or go out looking for a relationship, remember that only a sober and enthusiastic "yes" is consent to have sex.
Anything else can and will be used against you eventually, either legally or to your social reputation.


Haele

[Dream Girl]

60. This excellent, very cogent and on point. Thank you.

[pnwmom]

140. Right. What do you say to the young woman? Can she have sex with a young man

who is inebriated and willing (but perhaps legally incapacitated)?

What if she is also inebriated?

[haele]

155. Same thing.

What's wrong with what I said? It's not victim blaming anyone to tell them to be careful and that inebriated sex is fraught with bad communications, mis-understandings, and possible legal ramifications as well as potential for STDs and pregnancy. Now, if my step-daughter was coerced (forcibly or not), something was slipped in her drink, etc, she had her choice, her ownership of her sexuality taken from her. She was assaulted whether or not you want to paint her as a victim or a willing participant. She doesn't say yes in the beginning, or she changes her mind and says no, it's rape. She owns her sexuality, just as the other participant does.
Same as I would tell my son, if I had one.

Haele.

[gollygee]

31. Come on now

We're talking about one person intentionally getting another person drunk so they'll do something they wouldn't otherwise do, or chasing after people who are drunk enough that they are not that aware of what they're doing. Tell your son not to do anything like that. Him having a few drinks first won't get him off a rape charge.

[pnwmom]

131. Not always. Two people could BOTH be drunk and not objecting to sex. Are they raping each other

if they have sex in an incapacitated state, or is only the man legally capable of rape?

If he is drunk and she is, too, why is he the only one considered a rapist? If he is drunk and she is not, has she raped him?

[gollygee]

165. It takes more than just two people not objecting

Someone has to actually initiate and actively do it. If two people both simply don't object, there isn't any sex. Someone has to actively do something. If someone is able to initiate it, and the other one is drunk enough that they can't actively participate but also can't object, then one of the two (and that person could be a man or a woman) is raping the other.

[ArtD48]

37. My thoughts

Dream Girl: you write "What I'm asking about is when both the male and female are drunk and have sex. There is no "no" but under the legal definition of being drunk, one cannot give consent if incapacitated. Is the male somehow expected to keep his wits about him more than the woman. If so, wtf? Seems like woman are being infantalized in a way."

I think another way to ask this question is: "If we don't hold a woman responsible for what she says or does (like having sex) when incapacitated then is it fair to hold a man responsible for what he says or does (like having sex) when incapacitated?"

I think that's a fair question.

[ismnotwasm]

56. It's not a different standard

As "Men and boys" commit the vast majority of rapes. What fucking "standard" are you talking about?

[ismnotwasm]

54. So if a man commits rape while intoxicted

He's not responsible? Am I reading this right?

[etherealtruth]

71. It reads like that :puke:

I guess if a man (or a woman) commit any crime while intoxicated its OK, then.

[closeupready]

39. It certainly could be. Women rape men, but here on DU, that's unpopular

to establish.

But yes, if a man is inebriated and the woman is not and they engage in sex, then that could be considered rape if the man didn't want sex.

[LanternWaste]

43. What a creative and unsupported allegation!

"that's unpopular to establish..."

What a creative and unsupported allegation!

[niyad]

49. we see this crap all the time here--and can pretty well predict how quickly it will show up.

[ismnotwasm]

57. Rape is rape

No matter who does it. What gender do you suppose commits the majority--by far--of male rape?

[closeupready]

61. Rape is rape, yes, agree - members of both genders commit rape.

[ismnotwasm]

75. Well sure

Not anywhere near equal numbers. It is, by and large, a crime of males--no matter what gender is the victim of rape--although there are underreported incidences of female on female rape as well as female on male rape.

Acknowledging this as true is not the problem you stated it was. Deflecting the argument from male on female rape during inebriation--especially with "date rape" even being a thing at all--to female on male rape is a problem, as it cheapens the discussion, promotes the old "femme fatale" as well a dozen other sexist tropes that need to die.

[closeupready]

77. Not going to respond to you any further.

Cheers.

[ismnotwasm]

78. Okey dokey

[tymorial]

62. This subject causes emotions to run high

And people sometimes respond with assumption rather than knowing all of the facts. There are some dismissive and borderline offensive responses in this thread as evidence of this fact. There is also a narrative script that many adhear to which doesn't always represent the reality of personal experience

It i why I generally refrain from discussing this topic despite the fact that I have been raped by both a man and a woman. Reporting it would have been pointless (it was 20 and 18) years ago.

[closeupready]

76. Oh, my - so sorry to hear that. :(

[tymorial]

137. Thanks but I am okay

I worked out my issues a long time ago.

[niyad]

46. "women are not children"--well, NEITHER ARE MEN!!!!!! you are teaching your son

Last edited Thu Sep 29, 2016, 06:37 PM - Edit history (1)

that NO MEANS NO, I trust.


what ARE you teaching your son about HIS responsibilities with regard to sexual encounters, drunk, sober, drugged or otherwise?

[ismnotwasm]

51. Exactly

What is this "changed her mind" bullshit?

Although, I AM assuming that it needs to be pointed out here given the nature of the discussion, that a woman can "change her mind" at any point during sexual activity --as well as refuse any sexual activity she is uncomfortable with. Failure to comply is rape.

[guillaumeb]

52. Yes. Incapacitated people cannot really consent to anything.

Another good reason to educate people about alcohol and other drugs.

[niyad]

55. as a matter of curiosity, why are you specifically concerned about college rape and not

rape in general?

[WillowTree]

58. I was wondering the same thing.

[niyad]

64. the title of your thread was college rape. was asking why that, specifically, period.

any assumptions and insinuations are not coming from me.

[niyad]

73. I am truly sorry for what happened to you, and appreciate that you are trying to make

sure your son gets the right messages.

[WillowTree]

65. Suggestion for your son.

Just don't ever get so drunk that you can't tell if someone else is too drunk to give consent. That's not "infantilizing the woman", that's protecting himself.

We each have to be responsible for ourselves regardless of what others do or do not do.

[d_r]

67. I'm 48

and long time happily married, so it has been 20 to 30 years since I was in the place to think about this on a personal level, but I did think about it back then. I'll admit I drank a lot and partied a lot as college student. I just didn't want to hurt anyone. My personal rule to myself was "girl on top." I know that probably sounds really wrong in 2016, but the way I figured it then was that I could be sure it was consensual if I was following her lead. Maybe a younger person can think of a more contemporary version of that sentiment.

[cynatnite]

69. In an effort to protect your son, you're using the same old rhetoric...

Men and women both do get raped. It's not about gender. Rape is about power and taking advantage.

Men have claimed that a woman has cried rape because she changed her mind when in fact it's not true. History is replete with this horrible excuse.

You're also, and I think it's inadvertently, already placing the blame on the woman with your statement "women aren't children". When a woman is raped, she is a victim. She didn't ask to be raped. She didn't invite it by how she dressed or how much she drank.

A man who rapes a woman and claims that "the alcohol made me do it" is scum and should be locked up for a very long time. It's a pathetic excuse.

Don't look for ways to get your son out of a possible rape charge. That's a failure on your part.

What you should be doing is talking to him and teaching him not to rape in the first place. Whether he gets drunk or not, he is still responsible for his actions. Also, teach him that if he believes a woman is intoxicated, then maybe sex isn't something that should be added to the situation.

[etherealtruth]

74. Borrowing a word from religion: AMEN!!!!!!!

[TygrBright]

84. Yes. n/t

[cynatnite]

122. Yes. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

130. it would seem, they both rape each other.

And to the people who say a blind drunk man can't engage in a penetrative act...

well, I have at least one story about a time I passed out, in college. Suffice it to say, though, I didn't press charges.

[Moostache]

79. I once awoke in a woman's bedroom, missing my clothing and any recollection of the previous 6 hours.

Seeing as this was in the early-90's, and I was in college, and not at all unaccustomed to waking in strange places it did not immediately register with me as being a big deal, until I later realized the extraordinary risk I took that night...for possibly contracting an STD.

At no time did it cross my mind to wonder if that could be considered "rape" - by me, or to me.

I simply had no full memory of the evening (and still do not) beyond the time we arrived at her apartment, stumbled into the bedroom and got on the bed. This woman was not a total stranger, she was a neighbor in the apartment complex and we were familiar with each other through socializing, but hardly close friends or romantically involved. There was mutual attraction, an evening of flirting and heavy consumption of alcohol by both of us, and after a certain point in the evening a total loss of the ability to give, receive or ask for consent.

Was there any intent to forcibly coerce sex? None that I could recall or her, though there was some embarrassment when the house around us awoke and she did not want her roommates, one of whom I HAD been romantically involved with, to know or suspect what had happened.

Was there any discussion at all about what happened? Nope. We never discussed the incident again...another STD risk that I was fortunate to take and not pay a price for...

Was there any allegations or thoughts from either of us that "rape" had occurred that night? Never once on my end, and I cannot 100% speak for the other party, but we continued to see each other around the apartments and at social gatherings for much of the following 10 months without repeating the event or discussing it in any way.

This was 25 years ago last week. Until this post was put up, I had not really given it a second thought aside from some soul-searching on why I had thought it was OK to drink to those levels of inebriation after I left college and maybe when I reflected on how lucky I was to survive a fairly active and cavalier attitude towards casual sex and promiscuous lifestyle in the early-90's.

So what's the moral of the story?

I don't have one. I am writing this screed on the fly without editing... I would never consciously attempt to coerce a woman into sex and abhor the idea of anyone physically assaulting a woman and having coerced sex or knowingly violating an unconscious person....but until I became a father to 3 girls, that was my internal clock on "rape"...if a woman said "no", that was pretty much it...but external factors like sobriety, or lack thereof, was not something I gave a lot of thought to.

I absolutely do not believe "no" means anything other than "no", unless you need more clarity like "NO, GET THE FUCK OFF OF ME YOU PIG, I DO NOT WANT SEX"...but "no" is all that should EVER be necessary to get the point.

[rumdude]

82. If two totally wasted people have consensual sex, there is no way one can call it "rape."

IMO.

[Heidi]

81. Ask your son whether it would be rape if a drunk man had sex with him when he was incapacitated

and vice versa. His answer may be illuminating.

[davidn3600]

86. That's not the question being asked

The question is if BOTH people get totally drunk, and they have sex. And they both wake up in the morning and NEITHER gave any affirmative consent. Is that rape? If it is, who's responsible?

Everyone in this thread is assuming the situation is a sober guy and a passed out girl. That's not the question.

[Heidi]

87. Re-read my reply. (nt)

[TygrBright]

83. If ANY person involved says no or is incapacitated, it is rape. So, YES, it is. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

85. Entirely possible for both parties to be guilty of rape under today's standards.

Party A and Party B are both very drunk and lead each other on into doing things that they each regret the following morning. Each took advantage of the other, and the fact that the other party was under the influence of alcohol, therefore both parties are guilty of rape.

[jberryhill]

96. I believe you are correct

[closeupready]

98. Similar to, I guess, two drunk drivers who run into each other going

opposite directions. Thanks for the metaphor, it is illuminating.

[Kingofalldems]

101. Rape under the influence is a crime.

[jberryhill]

114. Correct - if they are both drunk, they are both guilty

It's not as if "crimes" in general are personal causes of action. They are offenses against the state.

There's nothing unusual about saying

Person A engaged in sexual activity with Person B, when Person B was too intoxicated to lawfully consent; AND

Person B engaged in sexual activity with Person A, when Person A was too intoxicated to lawfully consent.

If the relevant definition is "sexual activity without consent" then they are BOTH guilty under that definition.

I don't know why that is hard to understand.

[closeupready]

102. Correct. .... Am I missing something? Are you objecting to my post?

[Calista241]

90. A decade ago when i was in college, my fraternity attended a seminar put on by our national

organization that discussed this very topic. Now i'm going to test my memory, but the message from the retired district attorney and police officer that gave the seminar went something like this:

1. Generally most DA's will not prosecute he said / she said rape accusations from equally inebriated subjects, absent any other injuries, past convictions / arrests, or witness testimony.

That being said there were several qualifiers:

1. A female is always more believable and more sympathetic than a male, to both police and prosecutors.
2. Any evidence of rape is almost always retained by the female after a sexual encounter.
3. In most cases, the male participant is not present during, and cannot be effectively drug tested after a rape kit / rape allegation. Any interaction the male has with the police will almost certainly be well after any alcohol has been processed and expelled from his system.
4. A male is relying on the decision of a prosecutor whether or not to pursue charges in such a situation, and this decision cannot be appealed or challenged.
5. Prosecutors have an unbelievably high conviction rate, so if you are charged, you are more than likely going to be convicted.

The seminar approached the topic from a male / female heterosexual encounter, though i suppose some of the subject matter would apply to an LGBT encounter as well.


On edit I thought I'd add one thing. I don't agree with what the cop said in this conversation, but it was said, and i thought it might help with your understanding of how the law works in this situation.

The police officer did say this, somewhat candidly in response to a question, and since he was addressing a group of male students, he couched it from a male point of view. He said that if you were ever accused of rape in what you thought was a consensual if inebriated encounter, you were to say you were drunk, and that you were in turn raped by the other participant. The thought being that prosecutors HATE he said / she said arguments when there's no evidence of violence, and two parties accusing each other of rape presents a more undesirable case.

[prayin4rain]

92. People should not have sex with drunk people that they're not in a real relationship with.

People should not have sex with any incapacitated person, whether in a relationship or not.

Anyone who willing drinks to the point of incapacitation is responsible for any crime they commit while incapacitated. A crime victim is a crime victim, regardless of whether they're incapacitated.

Your son should be taught to not have sex with drunk girls that he's not in a relationship with. That really is the best policy.

Most of the college rape stories in the news involve women who are passed out or almost passed out, which is obviously rape.

On edit: I think the male is most often the rapist in drunk/drunk situations because of the mechanics of sex. When two extremely drunk people have sex, it is usually the male causing the physical act to occur. I have heard of a scenario where a man was taken advantage of while extremely drunk and the women caused the physical act to occur. I considered her to have raped him. She bragged and laughed and I was disgusted.

[Whiskeytide]

105. I notice that some of the responses to your OP have missed your point ...

... or have changed your scenario to match their responses. That's not helpful.

Here is a link to a law school journal from 1958 that demonstrates how the issue you raise has been something the law has wrestled with for quite a while.

http://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3836&context=wlulr

My take on it is this:

There are actually two "capacities" to examine - and they're different entirely - the first being an element of the charge itself (which the prosecution must prove), and the second being a defense (which the accused must prove).

1. Was she/he was too intoxicated - i.e., incapacitated - to give consent to the sex act?

2. Was she/he too intoxicated - i.e., incapacitated - to recognize that the other person was too intoxicated to give consent?

If rape is considered a "specific" intent crime, then the answer to the 2nd question is relevant because lacking that capacity would be a defense to the charge of rape. That would mean that the prosecution could prove the rape occurred, but the accused could get off because he/she didn't possess the requisite intent to commit the crime.

If, however, rape is a "general" intent crime, the state of mind of the accused is not really relevant, and failing to recognize the incapacity of the victim is NOT a defense. If the victim did not give consent, a rape occurred. The gravity of that crime overshadows whether the accused knew what she/he was doing at the time.

Our society has long defaulted to excusing rape or minimizing it's significance, and that bias has been reflected in the law as well by allowing defenses based on the capacity or mental state of the accused (like "he/she dressed provocatively and I couldn't help myself", or "she/he let me do it last week so I thought it was okay this week too". These are not just victim blaming defenses ... they also seek to excuse the rape by shifting the focus to what the accused thought, or how the accused perceived the situation). But, gradually, we have been moving away from this and toward a more victim empathetic standard. Not that we're there yet on all of the issues involved, by any means, but that is the trend.

So - can an accused defend a rape charge with "I was too drunk to realize he/she was too drunk to consent"? Probably not - under the law today - in most jurisdictions.

I'm not sure any of this helps clear it up much. There IS a double standard in play here, whether we want to admit it or not. You can see it, perhaps, if you consider a scenario where two college women become intoxicated beyond their capacity to give consent, and engage in sexual activity. The next morning they both report to the police that they were raped by the other. If you're the prosecutor, what do you do with that?

But that double standard is probably justified given that by far the more common scenario is a woman being the victim and a man being the accused. The damage done by the act - both physically and psychologically - is so severe that we have to aim the law at the more common scenario, and place confidence in the system to minimize the likelihood of injustice in those rare cases that defy the norm.

Much of the advice above on how to try and educate your son, and teach him to respect women and boundaries - and to avoid unsafe or uncertain situations -, however, is sound. I think that's really all you can do.

[Fresh_Start]

109. If your son was out cold on the bed and his drunk male roommate penetrated him...

would you consider that rape?

I would and it wouldn't matter that they were both incapacitated. One is clearly a predator.

[taught_me_patience]

110. consensual drunk sex is not rape - period

Only when a person is too inebriated to consent to sex does it become rape. The question is at what point is someone to incapacitated to consent to sex. In my opinion, if a person is 1) passed out 2) unable to walk or 3) actively throwing up, they are too drunk to consent to sex. If your son refrains from having sex with anybody in one of those states, he'll be ok.

[jberryhill]

115. Here's where you go off the rails

You don't have to be passed out drunk in order to be incapable of giving consent.

If you are drunk, and you sign a contract, you have an incapacity defense. Same here.

[taught_me_patience]

116. Didn't I also say too drunk to stand or throwing up?

is incapable of giving consent?

[deathrind]

111. Good question.

There have been some very good replies and some...not so very good replies.

You would be better served seeking your answer to this from someone who has knowledge of the legal definitions to the variables in your question and how the law is applied specific to your area. Because those definitions can change from state to state.

[jmg257]

112. "Who is being raped?" The one who signs a complaint first.

[Nevernose]

117. An even more unpopular question:

Why the focus on college rape? Women between the ages of 18 and 25, and who are NOT in college, are twice as likely to be raped.

I'm obviously not supporting college rape or rapists, just wondering at our collective capacity for marginalizing the poor.

[Nye Bevan]

143. I think the issue is that colleges have their own disciplinary systems,

that many allege are biased against men. There are cases where the woman alleging rape has been proved to have made it all up and yet the man has still been expelled.

Outside of colleges men accused of rape need to be prosecuted via the standard legal process, so they have the right to an attorney, protection against self-incrimination, and the requirement that they need to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If college rapes were simply turned over to the police to be prosecuted in the normal way, as opposed to addressed by the colleges themselves, there would be much less of a focus on college rape as opposed to all rape.

[Nevernose]

158. That's almost exactly what my daughter told me

Damn near word for word. While that might be part of it, it can't be all of it; in my experience, the police don't care about crimes committed against any poor person, regardless of any race, sex, et al.

I think it's a combination of things. Poor people are ignored, colleges try and cover things up, parents & students often expect the college to act as trustees in loco parentis, and what sells media ads.

I'm having an exceptionally cynical day, though, so what would I know?

[athena]

121. Considering how difficult it is

to get a rapist expelled from his school, let alone convicted and sent to prison, and how many young women's lives are ruined by rape while their sociopathic rapist goes on to rape others and climbs the corporate ladder with great success, your elaborate question is offensive.

In fact, this entire thread is offensive. It reminds me of the CNN commentators bemoaning how the precious male lives of two college rapists were ruined by their accuser.

[DLevine]

124. +1000

[gollygee]

125. It is offensive

Every so often we get a thread where people seem to be searching for legal loopholes that will make rape legal.

[athena]

149. Unprocessed feelings don't disappear.

They stick around and continue to cause problems until you give yourself a chance to process them once and for all. Having a traumatic experience "ruin one's life" does not mean you don't get an MBA or have a happy marriage. You can attain all of those things, and be outwardly very successful, while you continue to live in denial about what really happened to you and feel inexplicably miserable inside. What speaks volumes is your categorical denial that you were harmed by the trauma, and a greater display of concern for abusers than for their victims.

I fully expect that you will respond to this with anger and rejection. As someone who spent decades in denial after a traumatic incident, I hope one day you will get around to dealing with those feelings. When you have fully processed those frozen feelings, you will no longer worry about your son being falsely accused of rape.

Indeed, where alcohol is involved, you should be much more worried about your son getting into a car accident than about him getting falsely charged with rape. That you are more concerned with the latter is suggestive of repressed feelings about abuse. The smart thing to do would be to explore those feelings more directly rather than continuing to live in denial. Of course, living in denial is much easier, at least in the short term.

[obamanut2012]

136. It is

And, is a continuation of this from another thread.

[Thinkingabout]

126. The answer is always NO until a sober YES is given.

[Warren DeMontague]

127. Sober? So people who have been drinking can't ever have sex?

You realize that they do, don't you?

[pnwmom]

132. What if both people are drunk and incapacitated? Have they both just raped each other?

That is the question.

[Warren DeMontague]

134. "no sex after ingesting alcohol" seems like a mind-boggling unrealistic standard, no?

It's not just me, is it?

[pnwmom]

139. Since alcohol reduces inhibitions, it seems pretty unrealistic. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

146. True. Im also talking about what actually happens, out there in the world.

People get drunk to loosen up and, often, that includes things like having sex. It's pretty standard.

Now, me, I don't drink anymore and I can expound at length on how alcohol diminishes the experience of sex, but I'm not surprised or shocked that people do it.

[Nye Bevan]

142. My wife wasn't in the mood but changed her mind after a couple of glasses of wine.

Fortunately she did not press charges alleging marital rape.

[Warren DeMontague]

148. Pah. My wife has a glass of wine and falls asleep on the couch, that's how exciting we are.

The non-consensual cajoling that ensues doesn't have to do with sex so much as "honey, c'mon and lets get you upstairs, your neck is gonna hurt if you sleep down here"

[closeupready]

153. Good thing she's not a fan of DU.

If she were, you'd be in deep shit.

[salin]

145. Folks keep using the word "incapacitated", but I think with very varied meanings.

I see the word, and think of the descriptions of the Stanford Swimmer case and the description of extreme intoxication - trouble walking, trouble mentally processing conversation. But others seem to be describing really buzzed.

No way in hell, after reading the case description and the victims statement submitted to the court, could I say that she "raped him" (as in they are both guilty of raping each other). And while he was likely drunk as well - he was not as inebriated - hence he had the 'flight' instinct when stopped by bystanders. She had no such ability for such an instinct to kick in.

Reading his parents comments, I think they would love this excuse for his actions. Even though he still had some faculties working, while she did not - indicating an aggressor in the situation.

For the concerned parent, have the son read everything about this case - including her letter. Discuss with him where in this case the line seems to become more clear that this was not an option to call this a "mutual rape", and that had the kid not been a student athlete at Stanford, and draw a judge who was an alum, the punishment accompanying the conviction might be decidedly more severe.

[Warren DeMontague]

150. That is a pretty clear case, the Brock Turner thing, to my mind.

He dragged her behind a dumpster, he was doing god-knows-what to her and she was unconscious. And like you said, he also ran when caught. Ick.

(And of course, he gets three months, in a country where we send granny to prison for a decade if she grows a pot plant)

I think the question in the OP is more about two people both mutually drunk but still functioning enough to mutually engage.

But I take issue with the idea that there's some epidemic of women running around regretting drunk sex and then accusing men of rape. That seems like a bullshit trope.

[salin]

154. Warren, I appreciate your thoughtful posts.

I don't speak as much as I used to, but still read. Don't know that we have directly crossed paths much, but did want to let you know that I find you very thoughtful.

I raised this case, because if one wanted to try to help one's highschool age son to try to understand the line - this doesn't define the line, but it defines when the line has clearly been crossed. Learning about it and discussing it, probably would go a long way to help an adolescent begin to understand a strong line, and to recognize that there are some less clear lines on the edges. And let them consider this - before being in that moment - if it were to arise.

I also agree about the trumped up trope of a rash of false accusations.

[Warren DeMontague]

156. I think it's a valuable conversation, but really I think the clear messaging should be around

consent, not booze.

It's not realistic to expect that college students aren't going to get drunk and "hook up"- not unless things have changed drastically since when I was that age. And I don't think they have.

I think the best thing one could do as a parent is cultivate a healthy respect for sex and the emotional component it carries, not because of some church lady finger waggage, but because really the experience itself is better the more connected and meanignful it is, not to sound all hippy-drippy about it. So why would you WANT to be with someone really out of it, much less someone you weren't sure was going to be thrilled about it the next day?

I know, it's been a long time since I was the age of drunken hookups. But I suspect the OP's concern is misplaced. As someone else noted, probably better to worry about getting in a car with a drunk driver. That's the kind of shit that keeps me up, nights.

Your points are well taken as well, and thanks for your words.

[salin]

159. Good point.

Appreciated.

[MineralMan]

135. My standard since I was a young guy has

always been that only mutual enthusiastic consent is actual consent. On many occasions, situations came up where "yes" lacked enthusiasm. No intercourse occurred. Easy. Enthusiastic consent leads to a good time had by all. Worked for me.

[athena]

147. Exactly.

Men who are not rapists don't have a problem with this. Thank you for demonstrating the point of view of a man who is not a rapist.

[MineralMan]

166. I remember one time, in my college days.

A young fellow student and I had consumed some alcohol, although were were only moderately intoxicated. As young people often do, we found ourselves engaged in an increasingly steamy make-out session. We both ended up naked on a bed, having a great time fooling around. But then, as we were on the verge of intercourse, she expressed a little concern about continuing. "I'm not sure I want to do this right now," she said.

So, we didn't. I said, "OK. No problem." We cooled off and ended up sleeping through the night, side by side. The next morning, we woke up and laughed at the situation, since we still had no clothes on. It was pretty funny, after all. We got dressed, hugged each other and went off to do whatever things we needed to do that day.

On another occasion a short time later, things did continue, with enthusiastic consent, and we were a couple for a few months.

The joys of the late 1960s, I suppose. Nothing is ever harmed by delay, really. Enthusiastic consent is real consent. Why settle for less than that?

[Recursion]

141. Legally, yes: it is possible for two people to rape one another

Just from the legal side this is something that needs to be looked at.

[dilby]

144. If both are incapacitated then there is no sex.

At least one of them needs to be able to perform the actions for sex, whichever that one is, is committing rape.

[Boxerfan]

152. Good grief folks-don't you know a SPAM post when you see one??

Like they really are concerned about this topic-its a troll job.

[Initech]

157. I say sit back and enjoy the show. Pass the butter.