FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION—THE NUMBERS KEEP RISING

[Coventina]

FGM - it's becoming more mainstream all the time!!


http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/female-genital-mutilation-the-numbers-keep-rising


More than half a million females in the United States have either undergone F.G.M./C. or are at serious risk; that’s double or triple earlier estimates, according to an analysis by the Population Research Bureau and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The majority of at-risk females live in eight states: California, New York, Minnesota, Texas, Maryland, Virginia, New Jersey, and Washington. More than sixty-five thousand live in the metropolitan area of New York City and Newark, according to a 2013 study. Most girls who have suffered genital mutilation—which affects sex, childbirth, and mental and physical health—are from immigrant families, the C.D.C. reported.

But I'm sure they all made that choice for themselves!

[yeoman6987]

1. Can't we pass a law saying doctors are banned from performing these?

[MoonRiver]

2. My understanding of the issue is that frequently family members do it. Simply horrific.

[yeoman6987]

12. Oh my gosh. Horrific indeed.

[niyad]

14. razor blades, knives, broken glass. . .

[yeoman6987]

15. Oh I can't even imagine. So cruel. So wrong.

[niyad]

16. and it is all done in the name of controlling women and their sexuality.

[philosslayer]

35. You're funny

Do you think people are going to doctors to have this procedure done? Wow.

[Dorian Gray]

59. I am sure

that no doctor in his right mind performs this horrible mutilation.

[Matrosov]

3. FGM is about female empowerment

and all American women should slice off their genitals as a sign of tolerance

[smirkymonkey]

72. Philoslayer, is that you?

[leftynyc]

4. Disgusting

First any doctor who performs it should have their license yanked, any parent that brings their child to have it done should have their children taken and parent should be jailed for YEARS. This should be one of the questions asked if a person is looking to immigrate. Anyone who doesn't show complete disgust shouldn't be allowed in. Period.

[TheDebbieDee]

28. Doctors aren't performing the procedures...

The families of these girls are taking these girls to butchers that perform mutilation, for pay. It's analogous to a family sending their infant son out to be circumcized by someone whose full-time job is totally unrelated to medicine and has no medical standards what-so-ever...

[leftynyc]

29. That's chilling

Someone needs to go undercover and find these butchers and get them behind bars. Then take the children away from the parents and prosecute them for child abuse.

[JI7]

62. Many times they are taken to their "home countries" to get it done

or some other similar type place where they don't have to face legal consequences over it.

[leftynyc]

65. Repulsive

It should be viewed as child abuse. They're going to have to take their daughters to the doctor eventually - they get sick. They need to be legally required to report it or face losing their license and prosecution.

What kind of fucking society mutilates their daughters to discourage sex or the enjoyment of sex? Certainly not one that should be welcome in the US.

[jalan48]

5. This is awful. Why is it happening?

[TheDebbieDee]

30. People immigrate to the US and they keep their cultural practices...

I'm not saying the practice is right or that I agree with it!

If I moved to Saudi Arabia, I wouldn't be allowed to drive a car and the Saudis would think I was crazy for wanting to..... Just before they executed me for it!

[jalan48]

31. I think it's a horrific myself.

[eissa]

6. But, but....IT'S THEIR CULTURE!

And some women like having their genitals mutilated. Just like some wanted to get married when they were 11. And covering yourself is empowerment! It's their choice! And we do worse things here......

[Puzzledtraveller]

24. Glad to see it's not just me that this shit drives crazy

I try to understand, I really do. The best I have is the need of some people to maintain perfect parity of thought as if any deviation will tarnish their ideological purity.

[eissa]

25. It's infuriating

All these things are linked by the same root of controlling women. Yes, many women buy into their own subjugation, but that shouldn't validate the "choice" or make it any more tolerable.

[Ex Lurker]

53. They tend to stay out of threads like this, only to double down on some other thread NT

[whathehell]

27. +10000

Right there with you.

[athena]

36. I wish I could recommend this post.

It's very unfortunate that the movement in favor of letting women refuse to go through with an unwanted pregnancy decided to call itself the "pro-choice" movement. This gave some people the impression that every choice a woman makes is a good choice by definition. In fact, many "choices" are not choices at all; the choice to mutilate one's own child, or to cover oneself up to avoid leading men astray, is not made in a vacuum. Some choices are simply bad choices. Some choices should be made illegal.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. I think there's a pretty big difference between a choice made by a consenting adult about themselves

and "choosing" to do something- like mutilation- to someone else.

"Choice" isn't the problem. There has been a shitton more damage done through history by excessive authoritarianism, than there has been by people making "choices" about their own lives and bodies- like, I don't know, smoking a joint in their own home, having a dignified end of life process on their own terms, singing badly on a reality show or wearing a skimpy bathing suit on the cover of a sports magazine.

Sure, anything can be called a "choice" if you want to stretch the semantics of the deal. People could say they 'choose' to throw pot smokers in prison or kill cartoonists who draw blasphemous pictures.

If people want to call things that aren't actually choices, "choices", that's not the fault of those of us who argue, incessantly and to the annoyance of those who are convinced society would be great if everyone would just shut up and do things the way we tell them to- that freedom and choice are, actually, positive values.

The folks telling women they have to wear burqas - or promoting horrors like FGM, for that matter - aren't exactly running around under a "pro-choice" banner, anyway, so I'm not sure 'choosy-choice excessive choiceness' is really the issue here.

[treestar]

45. I don't think anyone is saying that

Here is where people will draw a line. It's not like it has to be either/or. And it may be tough to talk women who are in that culture out of it. The beliefs get very ingrained.

[Warren DeMontague]

54. True, and it's astounding how "choice" gets blamed for fundamentalist authoritarian fuckwittery.

Actually, the framing of reproductive freedom under "choice" has been extremely successful and helpful, because the bottom line is most Americans support ideals like freedom and personal choice.

I've noticed it just happens to piss certain people off, say, when they're on about the imaginary "population problem" in countries where fertility rates already self-manage organically; they don't like the fact that the same logic what says a woman shouldn't be forced to have children against her will also says you can't force women NOT to have children--- just because you're annoyed by the strollers on the sidewalks in front of starbucks, or what have you.

Same deal with, say, consenting adults having sex in front of a camera. "Oh, god, choice again, ugh".. why did we have to call it choice, heavy sigh heavy sigh eyeroll gif etc etc

the same values which make most Americans support Roe v. Wade are also going to make it really hard for people to get the full frontal sex scenes off of HBO.

That's pretty much what that is about.

It seems pretty difficult to argue that, say, FGM or laws in fundametalist Islamic countries which dictate women wearing burqas, have anything to do with "choice", and generally it's authoritarian types- not consistently pro-choice people- who would be trying to make those arguments, anyway. So it's apples and oranges.

I don't think it should be illegal for a woman in France to wear a burkini, so in that instance maybe "choice" rhetoric might be applicable. But I do think that if a case can be made for others threatening or coercing her to wear it, throw the book at them.

[Initech]

60. That is not culture. That is the opposite of culture.

That's more barbaric in nature.

[Albertoo]

64. But, but, but, how dare you? All cultures are equally good.

Who are you to condemn genital mutilation, underage marriage or face coverings?

[Marengo]

7. What belief system is compelling this practice?

[MoonRiver]

8. The belief system that insists women may have no sexual feelings,

because, if they do, their husbands won't be able to completely control their every move.

[Marengo]

9. Is it officially sanctioned by some authority or codified somewhere?

[MoonRiver]

10. I don't know. But there seems to be little control over it,

even though it is children who are mutilated. I guess somebody has to report it, and in these insular ethnic communities, not many will do that.

[treestar]

46. It's tribal authority

many West African countries are not banning it by law, at least. Whether they enforce those laws well is another question. It can be quite complex, since it might involve turning your parents in.

[cleanhippie]

67. That pretty much sums up most reigious belief.

[Coventina]

11. "Imam Maintains 'FGM is Islamic'"

http://www.kaironews.com/imam-fatty-maintains-fgm-is-islamic/

In the interests of full disclosure: Small minorities of Christians and Jews also practice FGM. It is a cultural practice that predates all three faiths. Just as the veiling of women predates them, and is not required by them.

[Marengo]

18. The Iman in that article claims the practice is helpful for help women to combat sexual pressure...

Sexual pressure form who? Men? What are the men doing to combat this? Cutting off the heads of their penises?

[leftynyc]

20. It was a cultural practice

among Ethiopian Jews. Since they're all in Israel now, it's nowhere to be found among Jews.

http://www.jta.org/2013/09/09/news-opinion/the-telegraph/guardian-article-claims-that-jews-practice-female-genital-mutilation

[Coventina]

21. Thanks for the update and correction! Good to know!!

[leftynyc]

22. No problem

And thank you for continuing your quest to bring the horrible treatment of women all over the world out in the open.

[Marr]

40. Yeah, odd how that's just being danced around.

Some won't even mention it. I guess there are just some random sorts of people out there who like mutilating little girls' genitals.

[niyad]

13. k and r for this truly depressing OP

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/thumb/msid-52305320,width-400,resizemode-4/52305320.jpg

[smirkymonkey]

17. K&R

Disgusting, barbaric practice. Parents who allow this should be prosecuted.

[ismnotwasm]

19. That's so fucked up

Talk to any OB nurse--they will tell you--amoung other horrors-- that scar tissue cause women to rip up, rather than stretch (or tear) down the perineum.

[Puzzledtraveller]

23. I can't judge

I has to be impartial or else my liberal cred will suffer.

[iandhr]

26. Took the words out of my mouth.

[maxsolomon]

32. I see what you're doing here

and I approve.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. I'll never forget the time a DU member defended the "right" of US parents to have FGM done to babies

because 'it's their culture!'

just a few days after that same person had gone off the rails yowling that the cheesecake filled pancakes at IHOP need to be banned.


Heaven forfend anyone should be so culturally insensitive as to criticize Female Genital Mutilation.

[Coventina]

37. Why did cheesecake filled pancakes at IHOP need to be banned?

Was this person just insane?

Are they still here?

[Warren DeMontague]

39. I don't know. The IHOP thing was a spectacular spasm of authoritarian nanny statism.

and to be followed so quickly by a defense of "time-honored cultural practices" or some shit by the same person... verily, it were mind boggling.

Now, mind you, I think Cheesecake-filled pancakes sound disgusting, myself, but I will defend your right to eat them.

I'm not someone who goes off at length about JPR, it's not my focus or a particular axe I have to grind... but--- I think that user ended up over there.

[Coventina]

41. Sounds like some of the other food-related nuttery DU has experienced from time to time.

Cornflake fried chicken, Olive Garden....those two particularly stand out to me.....

People are strange, as Jim Morrison said....

[Warren DeMontague]

43. yeah, the stuff that sets some folks off

for sure.

The vegan/PETA threads used to get pretty intense. Especially around Thanksgiving. I had a few years where I didn't eat any meat, myself, but even then I found the vegangelizing obnoxious.

I think some of those people may have just been trolls looking to start shit, actually. But the pancake/FGM poster was an established DU member IIRC.

[Coventina]

44. Oh yeah! How could I forget the Thanksgiving wars!!

I'll have to see if I can dig up the threads/poster to whom you are referring.

Sounds intriguing!

[Warren DeMontague]

49. I probably made it up.

No, seriously, I'm pretty sure it happened, but it was like 2006 or so. So in the archives.

[Marr]

42. You know what's weird?

Ask the same people who make that defense of FGM whether it applies to the Hindu custom of Sati, and they'll reject it utterly. Burning a living woman along with the corpse of her husband? How barbaric! How stone age!

But change the religion to Islam, and it's suddenly tossed into a whole stew of foreign policy arguments and bigotry memes and they'll line up to righteously defend the mutilation of little girls, because it's a 'tradition'.

[treestar]

47. FGM is pre-Islamic

in the cultures where it exists. But everyone draws the line somewhere. I would draw it here and not want to defend FGM, along with executing women for adultery. We don't have to pick between extremes. We can tolerate other cultures to a point where we each want to draw the line.

[Marr]

51. It is specifically prescribed in the Hadith.

Enough with the dissembling. I always thought most liberals were against irrational religious lunacy-- especially when it actually hurts people. Why all the exemptions for Islam?

[treestar]

55. It is not particularly a religious thing

It may no longer be done (as many Biblical practices no longer apply).

Prevalence by country shows it is mostly Africa:

http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/fgm/prevalence/en/

It is not identified with any particular religion.

http://www.fgmnationalgroup.org/historical_and_cultural.htm

Just another primitive practice to control women.

[Marr]

56. Playing 'hide the ball' with this topic is not cute.

Africa is not a religion.

FGM is most prominent in Africa, yes-- but it's prevalent outside of Africa as well, and restricted, without exception, to majority Muslim states. It's very prevalent in Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, etc. It's also practiced in India, but only in the majority Muslim parts of the country.

To say this is an African problem and not directly connected to Islam is simply a lie. I'm going to do you the favor of assuming you heard someone say that, wanted to believe it, and so didn't actually look into. Because lying to cover the mutilation of little girls would be morally repugnant.

[treestar]

57. The links say differently

It is most prevalent in Africa. And it was even practiced in the US at one time. It is not directly linked to Islam at all.

More information

http://www.seeker.com/how-did-female-genital-mutilation-begin-1766105357.html

[Marr]

58. That article does not back up your claim.

There's a quote from a politician who claims FGM is not supported by Islam, and that's it. His claim is untrue. Look up FGM and the Hadith.

But for the sake of argument, even if it weren't in the Hadith, which it is, the fact would still remain that FGM is almost exclusively found in the Muslim world, through the Middle East, Africa, Asia, etc. There's is one majority Christian country in which FGM is prevalent, IIRC; Eritrea. And there, FGM is practiced almost exclusively within the Muslim minority population.

[treestar]

69. Here is what it does say

"There's no way of knowing the origins of FGM, it appears in many different cultures, from Australian aboriginal tribes to different African societies," medical historian David Gollaher, president and CEO of the California Healthcare Institute (CHI), and the author of "Circumcision," told Discovery News.

[Marr]

70. Taboos against eating pork appear to have begun in ancient Phoenicia.

Last edited Mon Oct 3, 2016, 01:20 AM - Edit history (3)

Male circumcision appears to have begun in Egypt. Do the origins of these two practices mean they aren't associated with Judaism today?

The ancient origin of FGM is completely beside the point, and I can only interpret it as an attempt to muddy the waters, and obscure the very obvious truth that today, FGM is almost solely associated with Islam.

[smirkymonkey]

73. +1000

[GulfCoast66]

34. Call me what you will...

But we should aggressively look for, prosecute and deport anyone who does this. And with so much FGM happening here we should let immigrants know that if this happens in their household they will spend many years in jail and then have their asses shipped back to where they came from.

Because some cultures just suck. And liberals need to stop defending them.

[smirkymonkey]

74. Thank YOU!

[tavernier]

38. I don't understand why female genitalia need to be changed.

Why the need for mutilation, piercings, even the recently popular trend to remove all the hair from the area, including the application of hot wax and razors? If a guy can't get an erection, where is it the fault of his partner's female parts?

[philosslayer]

52. Yeah, lets equate FGM with good grooming.

sheeesh

[JI7]

61. none of those things are comparable FGM

the purpose of FGM isn't about turning a guy on . it's to control women and the women's feelings.

[riderinthestorm]

50. Very sad K&R. nt

[Ex Lurker]

63. "Medical Benefits of Female Circumcision"

Their title, not mine. Somebody will probably call me Islamophobic for posting this https://islamqa.info/en/45528

[Coventina]

66. For those who might not want to give such horrific sites traffic:

The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision. absolutely bogus. Billions of uncircumcised women live their lives without this happening.

Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse. Another bogus claim. And, if a man can't be happy that he is pleasuring his wife, he doesn't deserve the title of "man."

Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain. Never happens. Never. Bullshit claim.

Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation. In other words, prevents orgasm in women

Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire. In other words, keeps a woman from being a complete creature, as nature intended.

As I said: Horrific. Anyone who subscribes to such disgusting thought does not belong in the 21st century.

[Coventina]

68. Kick for weekend crowd.....

[Coventina]

71. Final kick for exposure....