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Thu Oct 6, 2016, 07:53 PM

 

"Working class white men make less than they did in 1996"

http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/05/news/economy/working-class-men-income/index.html

Working class white men saw their income drop 9% between 1996 and 2014, according to a new report from Sentier Research. This group, who Sentier defines as having only a high school diploma, earned only $36,787, on average, in 2014, down from $40,362 in 1996.
Meanwhile, college educated white men saw their income soar nearly 23% over the same period, from $77,209 to $94,601.
Published by two former Census Bureau officials, the Sentier report shines yet another light on the fortunes of the white working class. This group has become a force in the 2016 presidential election, serving as the backbone of Donald Trump's support. And the Republican candidate's campaign has tailored much of his campaign to the working class, with promises that he will bring back the manufacturing jobs that once allowed them to support their families.

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Arrow 29 replies Author Time Post
Reply "Working class white men make less than they did in 1996" (Original post)
lumberjack_jeff Oct 2016 OP
bravenak Oct 2016 #1
Donald Ian Rankin Oct 2016 #2
lumberjack_jeff Oct 2016 #3
underahedgerow Oct 2016 #4
Coventina Oct 2016 #11
lumberjack_jeff Oct 2016 #12
underahedgerow Oct 2016 #13
Coventina Oct 2016 #15
lumberjack_jeff Oct 2016 #16
Coventina Oct 2016 #17
MindPilot Oct 2016 #21
Xithras Oct 2016 #24
uponit7771 Oct 2016 #5
Starry Messenger Oct 2016 #6
JI7 Oct 2016 #7
Starry Messenger Oct 2016 #8
underahedgerow Oct 2016 #14
ronnie624 Oct 2016 #20
ismnotwasm Oct 2016 #9
lumberjack_jeff Oct 2016 #10
LanternWaste Oct 2016 #19
Rex Oct 2016 #18
AngryAmish Oct 2016 #22
TexasBushwhacker Oct 2016 #23
lumberjack_jeff Oct 2016 #27
TexasBushwhacker Oct 2016 #29
Kingofalldems Oct 2016 #25
lumberjack_jeff Oct 2016 #28
Go Vols Oct 2016 #26

Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Thu Oct 6, 2016, 08:23 PM

1. They are still doing much better than most of the rest of us, and those jobs are NEVER coming back.

 

There has been quite a bit of automation in the last 20 years.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Thu Oct 6, 2016, 08:25 PM

2. I'm deeply suspicious of this statistic.

Whether or not you're working class is going to be closely tied to your income. So this sounds like it could very easily not actually mean what it sounds like it means.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #2)

Thu Oct 6, 2016, 11:05 PM

3. Here's what WaPo found

 

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 12:02 AM

4. I'm not surprized by this at all. The University campuses are overwhelmingly female

and males are cheerfully taking on menial, low paying jobs, rather than striving for degrees and genuine careers.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/03/28/look-how-women-outnumber-men-college-campuses-nationwide/YROqwfCPSlKPtSMAzpWloK/story.html

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Response to underahedgerow (Reply #4)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 10:11 AM

11. I teach community college, and my classes are at least 75% female.

And no, I don't teach child and family studies.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #11)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 12:27 PM

12. Do you consider that observation a problem that should be solved? n/t

 

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #12)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 12:57 PM

13. Of course. This situation has a massive backlash across all of society in countless ways.

From men feeling inferior to women because women are taking the higher paying jobs, to a feeling of inequality in the home, to the generational effect it has on kids, and to the economic effect it has across the nation. It's no shock that the big tech companies are importing well qualified workers.

The problem could be approached, as Obama and Clinton have said, with (much) more subsidies for higher education, to begin with.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #12)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 01:17 PM

15. It is extremely troubling to me, for all the reasons underahedgerow mentions.

Our community college district is attempting to address the issue by instituting male mentor-ship programs, and other such outreach programs.

One of the issues has been the (seeming) reluctance college men have had to taking advantage of these initiatives.
Very few men end up participating.

Another observation I have had is that the women in my courses generally outperform the men by large margins. So not only are fewer men going to college, but the ones that do *generally* underperform compared to women.

Believe me, we are concerned and attempting to analyze this problem, but so far we (the college) has not found definitive answers nor a "fix".

On a personal level, I am available to my students via email virtually 24/7, and beyond my required office hours I also offer special tutoring sessions, and many additional office hours besides. So far, in the several years I have offered these additional options ONLY WOMEN have ever shown up for the extra help.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #15)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 01:40 PM

16. To what would you attribute this attitudinal change?

 

In the 1970's men were overrepresented in college and primary education was reformed to remedy this imbalance.

My personal belief is that attempts to intervene by college faculty are far too late.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/sep/01/girls-boys-schools-gender-gap

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #16)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 01:52 PM

17. I have no idea. And, I agree that by college the trend is extremely difficult to reverse.

But, we are obligated to do whatever we can.

Community colleges, in spite of all the jokes made about us, take our mission to make higher education accessible to as many as possible, very seriously.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #16)

Mon Oct 10, 2016, 11:33 AM

21. I think young men are "opting out".

 

Men are eschewing the cultural expectation of college-career-family and the unrelenting debt and stress that surrounds that lifestyle.

They avoid the mortgage-like debt of college, work a low-stress job that pays the rent, remain single, childless and solvent. I think a lot of guys are seeing that there is a better way than the path society has laid out for us.

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Response to underahedgerow (Reply #4)

Mon Oct 10, 2016, 02:57 PM

24. A number of Redditors also attributed part of it to college degree creep.

This topic was discussed extensively on Reddit last week, and several commentators made a very good point. The analysis draws the line between "working class" and "middle class" jobs along the "job requires a college degree" line. That's a questionable way to do the study, because there has been a tremendous amount of degree creep nationwide over the past 20 years. Skilled but degree-less jobs that filled out the upper end of the working class employment spectrum in 1996 overwhelmingly require a college degree today. It's very common for supervisory level jobs in the skilled trades, and often labor level positions in the trades, to have degree requirements for new hires.

By using a college degree as the defining line between the classes, the study shifted many higher paying 1996 working class jobs into the 2016 middle class column. It can be the same job, with the same payscale and same skillset, but the addition of a degree requirement shifts it to a higher class. By reclassifying many of the higher paying working class jobs this way, the working class average shifts downward even if NO real changes to compensation occurred.

I'm not saying that the pay decline isn't real (it is VERY real), but their methodology may be masking the real numbers.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 12:50 AM

5. I'm thinking its similar for blacks and Latinos, income insecurity is hear most by those who have

... something to lose in the first place.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 01:00 AM

6. "Trump's supporters might be comparatively well off"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/12/a-massive-new-study-debunks-a-widespread-theory-for-donald-trumps-success/



According to this new analysis, those who view Trump favorably have not been disproportionately affected by foreign trade or immigration, compared with people with unfavorable views of the Republican presidential nominee. The results suggest that his supporters, on average, do not have lower incomes than other Americans, nor are they more likely to be unemployed.

<snip>

Among people who had similar educations, lived in similar places, belonged to the same religion and so on, those with greater incomes were modestly more likely to favor Trump. They were just as likely to be either working or looking for work as others.

In one respect, that conclusion was expected. White households tend be more affluent than other households, and Trump's supporters are overwhelmingly white. The same is true of Republicans in general. Yet when Rothwell focused only on white Republicans, he also found that demographically similar respondents who were more affluent viewed Trump more favorably.

These results suggest that personal finances cannot alone account for Trump's appeal. His popularity with less-educated men is probably due to some other trait that these supporters share.

<snip>

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 04:29 AM

7. it's hard to admit what it is that upsets them so much.

it's easier to believe it's trade .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #7)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 08:00 AM

8. Yup.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #6)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 12:59 PM

14. That posit doesn't explain why so many of them are overwhelmingly functionally illiterate

and incapable of forming a complete, coherent sentence.

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #6)

Mon Oct 10, 2016, 10:54 AM

20. It's the bigoted, jingoistic, hyper-masculine rhetoric.

Lots of people dig that shit.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 08:56 AM

9. Less because of loss of jobs, less because of the loss of unions?

Less because of increased competition for fewer jobs, less because of wages not keeping up with inflation? I have questions...

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 10:04 AM

10. Both

 



Contrast the above graph with those of women



Notice that since 2008, both lines have trended down.

Decreasing employment among men has created the environment in which unions can't compete - there's always someone out there desperate enough to be willing to be a scab.

Republicans thrive when people are afraid and insecure. Working class men are not at all secure.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #10)

Mon Oct 10, 2016, 10:38 AM

19. More accurately, working class people are not all secure.

 

"Working class men are not at all secure..."

More accurately, working class people are not all secure... regardless of whether that strokes the appropriate narrative or not.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Fri Oct 7, 2016, 01:53 PM

18. We've had stagnant wages for decades.

 

We never keep up with the cost of living. Just the c-class.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Oct 10, 2016, 11:43 AM

22. I think white men have figured out where they stand nowadays

 

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Oct 10, 2016, 02:39 PM

23. The problem is that working class white men blame their losses

on the "liberals". Somehow, they've decided that it's the Democrats fault that good union jobs that you could get with a high school education have moved overseas. They don't blame the businesses that chose profits over jobs or people like Trump who gladly make their products overseas and buy steel from China.

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Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #23)

Mon Oct 10, 2016, 04:16 PM

27. Agree.

 

That was the core reason for my support of Sanders - economic populism. Show people who really is screwing them.

Failing that, the guilty will step up to pin the blame on others.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #27)

Mon Oct 10, 2016, 04:27 PM

29. Often blaming their lack of success on people of color

The wgole "Make America Great Again" is just code for "Make America White Again". The good old days when you could get a decent job just because you were white and male. You didn't have to worry about competition from blacks or Latinos and certainly not from women!

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Oct 10, 2016, 02:59 PM

25. GOP has been systematically busting unions for years.

No surprise wages are down.

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #25)

Mon Oct 10, 2016, 04:21 PM

28. It's a lot easier to bust unions when the employment to population ratio is low. n/t

 

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Original post)

Mon Oct 10, 2016, 03:25 PM

26. This is last years numbers

Wage is around $2 more this year and others went up some.Close to $60.00 an hour in the Ironworkers Union.

Hope it last another 22 years when my kid can retire.Its a few bucks more than I made in '94,should be more.


$32.36 - wage
$9.10 - welfare (insurance)
$10.37 - pension
$4.25 - annuity
$0.35 - apprentice training

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