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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTo those who think the Muslim scarf/hijab is oppressive to women
Check out TLC's show All American Muslim. From what I've seen, it's completely voluntary! This is a great show, everyone should see at least one episode.
http://tlc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/series.html?paid=2.17028.56643.42234.1
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Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)In fact, the other day I watched a program about Centennial, about one of the Radical Mormon polygamist communities, and all the females there said they liked it too.
When you're living in a community that is patriarchal, OR you've been raised in a patriarchy, OR you have learned patriarchy is the holy way, OR you're married to a male in a patriarchal society, what can one expect the females to say? "Oh yeah, it's voluntary." "Oh yeah, I love it." "Oh yeah, it rocks!"
I'll tell you when I'll stop seeing it as oppressive. When MALES wear the hijab, I'll stop feeling it's oppressive to women.
For the time being, while I'm seeing Islamic females covered up with the hijab or as if they were going out into North Pole weather, completely UNLIKE Americans dress, while their males are out and about wearing nice, tight jeans with cool looking tops, and blending perfectly like Americans, as long as I see that, there isn't any amount of hijab-wearing females saying they accept it that is going to convince me it's not completely oppressive. It separates them from Americans, while their males fit in perfectly. The complete opposite of fair and equal.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Does the attire of Sikh men, or the wearing of yarmulkes by Jewish men also "separate them from Americans"?
Are the Amish "Americans"?
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Are they nicely shaven and wear hairstyles that fit into American culture?
Uh... no.
But Islamic males walking around with hijab-covered females sure are! When I see Islamic males looking as oddly different, and covered from head to foot next to their hijab-covered females, then I'll say the hijab is not oppressive.
I rest my case.
iris27
(1,951 posts)(95 degrees, 98% humidity), a family with the dad and son in short, modern haircuts, T-shirts, and shorts, while the mom and daughters are in full niqab.
Technically the rules of Muslim "modest dress" require men to wear long sleeves and pants, but I almost never see this on the men accompanying veiled women.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)When she turned to look at me, I saw that she had BEADS of perspiration on her face.
For some bizarre reason I'd forced myself to think that somehow the women didn't sweat under all those layers of cloth, that maybe all that cloth was nice and cool somehow (I had no idea how though). I don't know why the hell I thought that. Maybe it was because the very idea of 100 degree weather and wearing layers and layers of cloth just seemed too preposterous to me and made me flaming hot to think about it, so I opted to create some fairy tale in my mind that they were cool under that stuff after all.
Anyway, the answer is yep, they do sweat tremendously under all that stuff they're forced to wear in that savagely patriarchal society.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)
boppers
(16,588 posts)Answer: Evaporation.
It doesn't work in hot and wet climates, but in hot and dry climates, the fabric wicks away the sweat (polyester need not apply), air blows through the moisture, and thus creates cooler air. Drink a lot of water, sweat a lot, cover yourself with light, wick-ing, fabric, and you'll be much more comfortable than the nut-jobs in shorts and a tank top, as your outfit has a built-in passive cooling system, and theirs does not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler
Also, coverage with clothing also prevents the skin from being heated directly, as well as preventing the skin damage caused by sunlight exposure.
Signed: An Arizona Goth.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)You know, like the Australian Aborigines who have more than a few thousands of years experience coping with the desert heat? Or the tribes of the Kalahari or other areas where going naked is standard?
Because they don't have misogynistic patriarchal religions that demean their women....
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)Look at the Arabs and their light flowing robes to see how
to dress for dry heat. Light colors and layers of
moisture wicking fabric. Not BLACK Poli.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)you can pretend that this has nothing to do with patriarchal religious oppression but you don't fool anyone.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Seeing these poor women walking the streets in black garb, face covered in Chicago in August. That is nuts.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Your point?
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I question whether nuns are "clergy", and priests can generally wear what they want when they are off duty.
Does Mormon underwear bother you too?
If it wasn't for the fact that I know you don't like them building mosques either, I wouldn't be suspicious of the underlying problem here.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)And it's WRONG.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Per usual, you do not address the actual issue.
The issue is not the hijab. A woman may choose to wear one or not in the United States.
If a woman is being compelled to wear one if she does not want to, or a woman being compelled not to wear one if she wants to, are both wrong.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)I shall not proceed with this discussion.
CTyankee
(68,152 posts)covered. I tutor ESOL in a small community of Turkish women (very few men) and they all wear scarves. If you are in a tight knit community of your fellow countrymen and women, you might feel pretty uncomfortable striking out on your own in modern American dress. The younger women do it, yes, but I have noticed the older (and some of the more conservative younger) women do not. It is difficult for me to decide on this...
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)(and I require the wife to be present at all times, even though the male has actually told me it's 'not necessary' - which nearly made me crazy to hear), I address BOTH, by speaking to both, taking turns looking at both. She looks afraid when I look at her. Almost as if by my giving her POWER, she were going to get in trouble with her husband.
In any case, the male has actually TOLD ME (when I've spoken to both by looking at both in the eyes) that it's 'not necessary' to tell her anything because, "she doesn't know anything." I have told explained to him endlessly that I MUST address her as well because she is PART of the matter, not just him, and that is required of me.
He initially had trouble dealing with me, since I'm female, but I don't take things lightly. If I'm going to help this couple, he MUST listen to me, and I demand that. He has shrunken into a shell around me, is forced to shake hands with me before and after I meet with them, and has accepted the fact that he must behave himself around me as if he were not sexist. I don't tolerate bullshit too well.
I feel sorry for Muslim females.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)It's a crime of power and control (and sometimes rage). Clothing has nothing to do with it. Empower women, erase our patriarchal culture, destroy misogynistic religions and practices, educate boys AND girls about appropriate behavior, and you may see an improvement.
But clothing has zip to do with rape.
CTyankee
(68,152 posts)EVERYTHING to do with it! It is used all the time to blame women for rape when they don't dress "appropriately."
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)For me, when I go speak in the community about rape, it's important to educate women that their clothing has NOTHING to do with their risk for being raped.
FEAR of rape is a whole different ballgame that is not related to clothing.
Blaming women for being raped because of the way they dress, or the lack thereof, is a myth that educators must work hard to erase. I hope you do so when/if you can.
But it's imperative that we get the message out as educators in our communities. Until we address the root cultural causes of rape, we cannot solve this.
Your post has deeply mixed messages, fyi.
Good luck with your students.
CTyankee
(68,152 posts)what I meant was that dress regulations for women have a lot to do with fear (that a woman will be "too tempting" to other men if she is "uncovered" or at least that is the rationale used). The PTB in those societies feel a woman must be completely shrouded. I am NOT using the argument that women "ask for it" by dressing seductively. But would a woman in such a society rationally choose to deviate by, say, going without a veil? In my class of Afghan women refugees, the younger ones pulled off their scarves once they got inside the classroom. The older women remained with their veils draped over their heads. But this was in New Haven, CT, where Afghan women are not subjected to whippings or stonings for violating dress standards. So in that sense, the clothing plays a part. I didn't mean to imply that it is the only factor in rape. Obviously, rape just "is" in many societies that subject women. It is a good thing when the women come forward and protest, when we rightly condemn the practice of child marriage, and the whole host of depradations against women that are allowed. I hope, that by being an ESOL volunteer tutor, I can provide them with the English skills they need to thrive in this country and be freed from the cultural barbarity of rape.
And, by all means, I totally agree with you when you correctly say we need to address the root cultural causes of rape. (I am reminded of the biblical story of Tamara who was raped because she was "too beautiful."
Orthodox Jewish women, who live in my neighborhood in NH, routinely wear head covering when out in public (and sometimes wigs). I haven't seen their headwear being criticized as the muslim scarves are. So ironies abound...
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)One of the thing that irks me about popular organized religions, especially the big three, is how much the religion really seems to hate women. That said, I think there are bigger issues in the Muslim religion regarding women than having or not having to wear a hijab.
tblue37
(68,421 posts)I often find stories in the articles about young Muslim men, as they become more intensely caught up their religion, badgering and threatening their Westernized sisters into covering up, often beyond merely the headscarf. In fact, one article I read about the discussion in France about banning religious wear in schools is that the government hoped that make it harder in general for men to force women to wear such clothing if they did not want to.
CTyankee
(68,152 posts)My Parisian friend, Jacques, contended that the head scarf was an affront to France's ideas of equality among its people. I explained to him that it couldn't happen in the U.S.A. because the local chapter of the ACLU would be on his ass. He looked genuinely taken aback. I cited "Le droit du l'homme" and he said that had nothing to do with it! Good god, the French had something to do with this rights of mankind business...or at least I thought it did...and maybe WE got something wrong here...I dunno...
I guess I have learned, and am learning, something about how Europeans are viewing this whole thing, France in particular. It is interesting.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)and is deeply twined with their own struggle for democracy.
Religious symbols are deeply anathema for their culture.
French culture is nothing like US culture when it comes to that stuff.
CTyankee
(68,152 posts)said that maybe France shouldn't have colonized the Magreb in the first place. He had to grudgingly give me the point...
whathehell
(30,458 posts)and never did, now wear MODERN clothing now and have done so for some time...Catholic MEN are not married
to, or otherwise "connected" to nuns and look no different from other men.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I find your narrowmindedness of other -sub-cultures to be typical of a select few Americans...on that I will agree. We are a melting pot of cultures, sorry that is just the way America is. Most Americans would of course think the Amish are citizens...what a strange thing to say imo.
You ever been to America? I mean more then just one state.
EDIT - did you know that Northern Americans have different characteristics then Southern Americans? Which one is a Real American(tm)? They both cannot be, since there is a difference (one group talks faster then the other)! Think fast and vote often!
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)This is discrimination and subjugation in its finest hour, and guilty of it are Muslim males.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If they are being forced to do anything they don't want, they should contact the appropriate authority.
There is no other group of people in the US to whom people feel like they are entitled to dictate to them what they wear.
Only Muslims.
I'm sorry, but the assumption here in the US is that one is free to wear what one wants. If there is force involved, that is a separate and distinct issue.
Mel Gibson didn't like his wife wearing short skirts. She divorced him.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)and so willing participate in her own subjugation?
Should we lock them up and re-program them?
Vattel
(9,289 posts)I think Sarah's main point was that the original post seemed to assume that so long as women "voluntarily" wear the hijab, it's not oppressive to them. Sarah claimed, and I agree, that in certain Muslim communities the hijab is oppressive to women even if they are not forced to wear it.
CTyankee
(68,152 posts)I have and it ain't easy. I tutor English for a group of Turkish women who wear head scarves. It would be close to impossible for them, in this community of women in a larger Turkish community, to suddenly "bust a move" by not wearing their traditional garb (which entails covering more than just their heads, btw). Mel Gibson just wasn't part of the equation (in real life, that is.). You really need to think this thing through!
So let's be done with the lecture on civil liberties. What would you have these women to do? They are dependent for their very lives (and the welfare of the children) on their community. In their thinking, they fear a risk of rape if they do not wear the appropriate covering (which as a feminist I deplore). Think harder, jberryhill...
What I have seen, and this is in the Afghan refugee community here in New Haven, is a willingness of the younger Afghan women to stop wearing the veil (I see them taking it off in class). This gives me hope. The older refugee women are almost entirely somewhat shell shocked by what happened in their lives in Afghanistan (hence their being granted political asylum here). I can't really blame them for retreating to the veil. They are terrified and for good reason.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)is always in long sleeved shirts and pants, regardless of the 103 temps we have here in the summer. His wife also chooses to dress the way she does. Instead of making assumptions about them, based upon my own stereotypes, I actually have had awesome discussions with them. Both sides need to not broad brush on this issue.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Maybe it's the dominant use of Spanish and Portuguese in the Southern America lands.
To paraphrase some unnecessary snark:
"You ever been to America? I mean more then just one nation."
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)N, S, C America, many countries, many cultures.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)The hats differ....
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)Hijab is the head scarf, NOT the "head to toe" you keep saying.
?t=20110411085754
Yes, Amish are Americans. At least american amish are.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)Whereas most Muslim women I see here in the states are usually with a man who dresses in normal street clothes. TO me, it comes across more like a man trying to hide & repress his woman than a religious belief.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)LynneSin
(95,337 posts)As long as the codes applies to both sexes.
When I see one sex being covered up while the other wears whatever he likes - that's not religion, that's oppression.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)http://sikhpulse.wordpress.com/
Again, Islamic males dress typically American, and blend. Their females are unable to blend, because they're covered, head to foot.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Which does not cover anyone head to foot.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)saras
(6,670 posts)My partner wore all white and a turban for eighteen years. There's NO WAY IN HELL, EVER that it is NOT going to RADICALLY impact your ENTIRE LIFE.
And to be honest, to most Americans, the Amish are not Americans, they're this weird cult that lives by its own bizarre rules. If they were American, they'd share American values and live like "the rest of us".
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)furiners, use some other standard. You sound like a tea bagger stating that. The Amish are American, they are forgiving of tragedy on a scale the rest of us can't grasp and accept it. Not everyone is a happening dude like everyone else.
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)"If they were American, they'd share American values and live like "the rest of us"."
What? I mean, WHAT? No. "American" is someone born in USA or naturalized. They don't have to share "American values and live like "the rest of us" whateverthehell that all means.
If I don't consume enough, I'm not "American"? If I don't wear popular clothing, I'm not "American"? Oh dear. I don't listen to top-40 music either. Dang, guess I'm not "American". And, get this, I don't stereotype people like that so guess I'm not "American" either.
What? 
whathehell
(30,458 posts)"And to be honest, to most Americans, the Amish are not Americans, they're this weird cult that lives by its own bizarre rules. If they were American, they'd share American values and live like "the rest of us".
She put the latter part in quote marks, which means she's being ironic...Got that?
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)Since "american values" was not in the quote marks, it makes it odd. I'd like to hear from that poster if she/he meant it to be "ironic" or not.
And fyi, I used quotes twice here, neither of which indicated irony. back atcha
Also, rereading her post, she is agreeing that wearing a headscarf "separates them from Americans". Since they ARE Americans, not sure why or how it separates them. Religion vs nationality.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)You didn't realize that quote marks can indicate different things, depending on the context?
..Back at YOU.
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)Agreement or "irony"?
whathehell
(30,458 posts)were I to live in Afghanistan or any other country in which the hijab or other
Muslim covering is commonplace.
So, yes it is substantially different from common western dress and so
it does distinguish them from most Americans...That's a simple fact.
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)whathehell
(30,458 posts)Your level of knowledge is in inverse proprotion to your "outrage", LOL.
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)whathehell
(30,458 posts)most people here, I believe, understand it to have a broader application, LOL.
aquart
(69,014 posts)So do gang, team, and school colors. We are creatures with tribal instincts. We want to belong. The conflict comes when we are forced to decide where we want to belong most.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)This has to do with the males forcing the females in the Muslim society, to live according to patriarchal rules. Muslim males sure don't want to look different from whatever society they're living in, but boy they sure as hell want their females to look different, don't they? It's wrong, no matter how you look at it. Wrong.
boppers
(16,588 posts)The tribal customs of FGM are only found in some Muslim tribal groups, as are hijab, niquab, etc.
It's a tad like judging Christians based on what Southern Baptists do, or Atheists based on what... er... Stalinists do.
Basically, you seem to be attacking a faith, based on the extremists found in some tribal variations of the faith.
apples and oranges
(1,451 posts)don't wear the hijab. One woman decided on her own to go from not wearing one to wearing one.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)From her partner, who believes women 'should not' do this-and-that-only-males-should, to the fact that in that group discussion the males are saying that women MUST wear the hijab, etc. etc. etc. Always it's males enforcing the bs subjugation. Thank goodness she's a very aggressive woman. If she weren't she'd be wearing the frikkin' coverings.
Of course I've seen it. More than once, in fact. It shocks me that that's what passes as liberated.
These are women who are living in a society in which they're made to feel whorish if they don't comply with covering up from head to foot, even when it isn't said in crude words.
And I'm supposed to be impressed by that?
Zenlitened
(9,541 posts)uppityperson
(116,016 posts)Perhaps you missed the point that this is about American Muslims? Who are Americans. Dressing like Americans. In America. As Americans. Maybe they aren't "Americans" because they are Muslim?
In which case perhaps you should learn the difference between a nationality and a religion or culture.
Perhaps you miss the fact that a hijab is a HEAD scarf, not like "going into North Pole weather"?
North Pole wear:
OMG HIJAB, obviously nothing like anyone in America would wear and also obviously like the North Pole wear above:
Similar head scarves which probably fit into "American dress"
Different ways to tie a headscarf
Just for fun
Another ferigner
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)Dogs are not "man's best friend" in the Muslim world. They are reviled, considered dirty, and you don't ever have one in the house. They are sometimes tolerated for farming and protection, but they are viewed as filthy, soulless creatures without redeeming value beyond their utility as working animals.
A common pejorative is "Seed of the dog!"--an insult to one's ancestry!
I don't subscribe to that POV--I think if more people were like the dogs I've known, this would be a nicer world.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)and If they don't want to be "distinguished" in this way,
I'm sure you would argue that they are "free" to dress otherwise.
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)Do you wear jeans and cotton shirt or cotton fringed dress, boots? Then you aren't wearing "western dress".
Besides, "western dress" was said, just "American". Also didn't say "dress like a cat" or "dress in sports garb". Just "American".
You assume a lot about me.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)The West: It's not just for Annie Oakley anymore.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It is preferred if the forehead is obscured as well.
Your examples are not accurate representations of hijab. A woman in Iran would be beaten bloody on the streets by the Morality Police for wearing hijab in that fashion.
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)
MADem
(135,425 posts)and then suggesting it is representative of anything other than a tasteless deodorant commercial?
The headgear of a nun is also designed to cover the hair; good thing, too, because back in the "olden days" the nuns were expected to chop off all their hair when entering the convent.
Truly, it doesn't matter to me if you choose to "disbelieve" what I am telling you, but you are misrepresenting what hijab is, and is not, with your comments and photographs.
Tumbulu
(6,630 posts)thanks for making it so clear.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)There are so many problems with a comment like that, especially when it's been preceded by a comment stereotyping Muslim men...
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)If you know anything about Islam, there is a dress code for men too.
I would propose to you that American women have their own form of hejab albeit to the opposite extreme. I comes disguised as fashion and style, and many women are slaves to a highly sexualized market dictated code of dress here which does have implications for social, financial, and cultural mobility.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)SOMEWHERE, is NOT an option ANYWHERE.
I wear low cut blouses when I damned well feel like it, and when I damned well feel like it, I wear turtlenecks, and no man tells me what to wear. Please don't think me so stupid that you can deflect the issue of this topic by comparing this way in which Muslim females are kept subjugated by Muslim males, to me wearing any damned thing I feel like on any given day. People are not so daft.
Again, when I see a hijab-or-whatever wearing female next to a male dressed covered head to foot much in the style of Sheikh Abdullah Sabah, King Abdullah Al Saud, or any male who wears a non-western body and head covering that matches the non-western body and head covering females are required to wear, I will IMMEDIATELY cease saying female Muslim coverings are oppressive and discriminatory.
As long as the females are covered up, but their males are walking around showing off their ASS by wearing tight jeans, the females are being oppressed and I will continue to say it.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Also, their dress is far less uncomfortable. The main component is not exposing limbs--thus, a male would be expected to wear a long sleeved shirt and trousers. They don't have to be of heavy material, they don't have to cover their faces, and they don't have to sweat like pigs in order to go out in public.
If one wants to be very "Islamic" a beard or some facial hair is well-advised. Even a Big Moustache (a la Saddam) is better than nothing, but a Don Johnson bit of scruffiness, scraped off once a week or so, is not amiss in many societies. Beyond that, you're down to culture and custom.
In Iran, recently (within the last year or two), they did a crackdown on the "Ricky Martin" shirts for the gentlemen--the tight tee shirts and sweaters and so on. However, that enforcement was accomplished with a simple warning--put on your jacket, do not wear that shirt again. When they went after the women for failing to cover their hair or be sufficiently "chador'd" to suit the Morality Cops, they beat them bloody in the streets. Cab drivers were pulling over so that the young ladies could jump in and make their escape from the clubbing some of them were getting.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)and wore hejab while I was there. I frankly don't see a whole lot of difference in a culture requiring women to hide behind a piece of cloth and one in which women are pushed behind a chemical veil.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's not a choice anymore. Watch, be horrified:
If you only watch one, watch this one--it's subtitled:
&feature=related
I don't think comparisons (WTF is a "chemical" veil?) are helpful in this instance.
Any mandated veiling is not acceptable conduct. It's not supportable in any circumstance.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)5 years under the Shah and 5 years under the Islamic Republic.
A chemical veil is the spackling compound that Western women trowel on their faces. We hide behind it and are as much enslaved by cultural definitions of what is desirable a desirable image for women. We puke and starve and strip and snip and augment and you name it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)unheard of in the Middle East at all. In fact, many of the essential cosmetic basics (such as perfumes, kohl and other cosmetic eye adornments) came out of pre-Islamic, Pharaonic Egypt.
It's not just a "western" thing, by any stretch. I think some cultures over that way have a heavier hand with the trowel/spackle than we see here in the west, where the idea is sometimes to appear as though one isn't covered in makeup.
I do think that the whole "slave to fashion" business is silly, but it's happening all over the world--under the chador in Iran, behind the veil in Saudi Arabia, all over India (egged on by Bollywood), in Asia (egged on by the film industry there, as well), you name it--it's not just the west.
What the west does, better than many, is aggressively MARKET the fashions, the hairstyles, the cosmetics, the shoes, the plastic surgery--they do it through fashion magazines, Oprah-like talk shows, music videos and Hollywood films. They highlight it, sell it, make people think they want it...and 'round the world it goes!
Expecting people to not want the newest things in the fashion and beauty industries is a futile exercise. People like the thought that a garment, a product, a procedure, will change them from an ugly duckling to a swan. It may not be true, but it's the IDEA that entices--and you'll never stop people from hoping that they can somehow improve themselves with just one little adjustment, one new "thing,"--and that, by so doing, they'll magically find happiness.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)I agree with you.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)There's a reason the vast majority of homo sapiens believe in a deity of some kind, even though one has never been observed and basic answers to questions such as "does your deity consist of matter" can't be answered.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)you've seen almost nothing.
Withywindle
(9,989 posts)I don't think hijab is oppressive. I've seen a lot of women wear it in a way that's customized and stylish and quite pretty. I've seen plenty of non-Muslim women wearing scarves on their heads when it's chilly and wet outside, no oppression necessary. I agree, it's no different than a yarmulke or a Mennonite bonnet--a religious signifier, but not one that really gets in the way of anything.
I DO think garb that covers the face is oppressive, because it drastically limits communication ability. Humans rely on a LOT of non-verbal information when we speak to each other, facial expressions being pretty much the most important. Westerners at least also have a cultural perception that, with very limited and specific exceptions (masked performance, Halloween, bitterly cold), only criminals hide their faces. Covering the face really does set people apart.
boppers
(16,588 posts)...and this is one reason why people seek to medicate/institutionalize/marginalize ASD.
Do we avoid or limit books that only have words, but *not* faces?
Why not?
Perhaps words are more important to some people, and faces are more important to others.
Withywindle
(9,989 posts)I understand that it's different in that case.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I would imagine it's no picnic playing sports like soccer or basketball in a track suit and scarf...or swimming in attire that covers one from head to foot (quite a growing market for those items, which are readily available over the internet).
See, even if you are not wearing the chador, chaderi, burquah, call it what you will--a beekeeper's suit, a bedsheet, a garbage bag--the requirements of hijab mandate covering the limbs, obscuring the shape of the body, AND covering the head, hair, and neck. Hijab is shorthand for the scarf, but it also has meaning as a method of modest dress for Islamic women.
Also, the way Brigette Bardot or Jackie Kennedy...or even Margaret Thatcher...wore a scarf over their hair is not the way a woman, wearing a scarf as "hijab" would wear one. It's a very different look, assuming the hijab is worn correctly. If you're walking on the street in Iran and you're not appropriately put together, believe me, they WILL let you know, and it won't be pleasant.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)First, no in many countries it is not voluntary at all. Secondly, even where it is not required by law it is not a fashion choice but a religious restriction on women.
Women violating Islamic dress codes can be in physical peril in areas where they are not technically in legal peril.
Oddly enough men can pretty much wear what they want.
iris27
(1,951 posts)Maybe for the women interviewed for that show (who live here, presumably with a more moderate family) it is voluntary, but this is NOT the case for all hijabi/niqabi.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)At the local mall and supermarket I've even seen women covered head to foot, unable to blend, noticeable from a mile away, while their darling hubbies were wearing shorts, sandals and a T, and blended in perfectly with the rest of American society.
Fair? Hell no.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)"We allow our women to..."
as though they expected a pat on the back for their benevolence in allowing women to do certain things.
I don't care whether muslim women "officially" have the choice to wear the head scarf... they are obligated to wear it in reality, unless they want to completely disregard their womanly expectations in their community, and face the consequences (shame, gossip, isolation).
I do know a couple of cool muslim ladies who wear head scarves, here at school where I am a student. If I had been born into their families I have no idea whether I would be more rebellious than they are... probably not.
So in comparison, I feel very grateful that I was born into a non-religious family. Go ahead, call me a bigot or whatever you'd like! But accept it or not, muslim cultures are oppressive to women. Some muslim countries / muslim societies are more oppressive to women than others.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)That's my problem with Muslim countries, and when I hear a woman say she's all right with wearing a veil, or she feels better with it, I consider it the same as hearing a polygamist's wife say she's fine with sharing her husband with 10 other women. They are women who are not in control of their own lives.
What's more, people in situations that force them to comply with unpleasant situations, find it easier to say they are fine with the situation. Dealing with cognitive dissonance (believing one thing and being forced to live another) is extremely destructive psychologically, and it's easier to just say one likes the thing one doesn't, so at least one's life and one's beliefs match one another. I believe that's how Muslim women and radical Mormon polygamist women handle their lives, by engaging in a pretense that they like it.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Islam being but one.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The issue is oppression, not clothing. Whether you like it or not, you cannot tell whether someone is wearing something voluntarily or not.
Your larger issue, which oozes between the lines of all your posts on this subject, is that you believe Americans look and dress a certain way, and these people are not "blending in".
How long have you been on about nuns? I see them wearing their habits at amusement parks too.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)How many Catholic women cover their hair just for believing in Jesus?
Nuns are a backwater provision...we can only allow women to represent Jesus if they totally deny their own validity as a human being.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)and who is this "we" who are "allowing women to represent Jesus"?.......It's relative to that particular religion,
not a matter of general consensus.
All in all, it's particularly irrelevant since nuns have been in modern dress for about thirty years now.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)I am an American with dual citizenship in Sweden. Maybe you are confusing me with someone else or you are confusing my posts with someone else's posts?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Quantess
(27,630 posts)
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Gee, I hope I was clear that time.
11 Bravo
(24,305 posts)Just curious.
Maccagirl
(5,884 posts)n/t
11 Bravo
(24,305 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)I've seen some in short (knee length) jumper-dresses with a cross, with either abbreviated headdresses or none at all, depending on the order. In more recent years, the ones I have come across just wear street clothes and sometimes a clunky cross.
I've seen a few old--and by old, I mean VERY OLD--ones in and around the Vatican wearing the full black wimpled get-up; and the "Mother Theresa" nuns as well--but their "uniform" is rather unique to their order and suited to the environment in which they serve.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I see them in full get-up, and they aren't flying around like Sally Field either.
MADem
(135,425 posts)country.
boppers
(16,588 posts)False, for the vast majority of eastern, and western, nations.
Please name the local malls and supermarkets, and in which nations, where men can walk around with penises, or anuses, exposed.
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)It is possible that, in an assimilated household in a society where Islam is a minority faith, the choice may be purely voluntary, but there is no question that it is forcibly imposed in many Islamic mileius, and reflects there a second-class status for women.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)That wouldn't be fully possible in a society where there is strong societal pressure to behave in a certain way or face the consequences. IOW, it would not be "purely voluntary" in the way whether I wear a hat or scarf out or not is purely voluntary. No way.
The short answer is you don't know what they go through if they choose against wearing it -- from family, friends, husbands, religious personages. Maybe nothing, maybe a lot, all of which makes the "voluntary" part not all that voluntary.
The Magistrate
(96,043 posts)My statement went no further than that it might be voluntary, in conditions of assimilation to a society in which Islam is not the dominant tradition. Even that allows for the possibility of varying degrees and kinds of coercion from family,and no doubt such does occur in many instances. But there are probably cases where a person keeps to the religion she is reared in,and takes it seriously enough to behave as it dictates from what she would certainly describe as her own volition. If you get to a point where you are saying, more or less, that she could not really mean that, you will find your feet planted in a spreading quicksand....
JCMach1
(29,195 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)Most Muslim women I come across in my day-to-day life DO NOT wear the hijab, btw.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)not unusual to see women wearing the hajib, it gets rarer the longer the women have been in the U.S. Lots of first generation women wear it, lots of second generation don't.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)I won't say what year.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)(1975) but don't tell anyone.
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)for not conforming to the headscarf dictates of their culture, I will be skeptical about anyone who says there is absolutely no coercion involved and that wearing it is completely voluntary.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I married into a Muslim family ... wonderful people ... the hijab and niqab are not part of their culture, so head scarves (light weight, ornate and rather small) are worn during religious observance, but at no other time.
I have, however, spent a great deal of time with Muslim women (outside the family) for whom not wearing the hijab and/or niqab was not a choice they could reasonably make.
hunter
(40,667 posts)I don't ever want to be caught wearing anything that keeps me from outrunning an angry mob.
boppers
(16,588 posts)I'm serious, you get *huge* advantages in stride distances over those in pants, most dresses, etc.
http://www.utilikilts.com/
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)and get back to me on what you prefer. Men can at least buy dress shoes with rugged rubber soles - no such thing exists for women. If you think a necktie and a man's business suit is a problem try wearing a skirt, pantyhose and heels.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)It's one thing if it is something a woman wants to wear. It is an entirely different thing if she would be beaten killed or ostracized for not wearing it. The head scarves aren't what I think most people object to. It's the full faced veils of burqua's that take away a woman's identity that I find upsetting. Not just because of how oppressive they are, but rather how unbelievably oppressive the lives they represent are. Complaint or non compliance is something that only shortens a woman's life in those places.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Here in Los Angeles many women wear head scarves in various arrangements as they go about their daily lives. Some are Muslim, some are Jewish, some are non-religious like me and wear them sometimes for WARMTH. It's really nobody's business why any of us do so.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)If women's lives are made less so by the clothing they are expected/required to wear, it's no one's business and we should just not notice? Would you say more about that?
peace13
(11,076 posts)Can't cut her hair, must wear a dress, must never think that she is as smart as even the dumbest man. What's it to you or me? This world is full of people at both ends of the scope. I know that I want to do as I want to and in order to have that freedom I need to keep my nose out of other people's business. Drawing the line at people getting hurt of course.
OriginalGeek
(12,132 posts)for the sake of your religion because it's required by the men who run it isn't some kind of mental hurt, I don't what is.
I grew up in a fundie home. There is hurt there.
peace13
(11,076 posts)Adults can still choose a way of life here. If the children are endangered then that is an issue for the law. Mental hurt is a broad subject. I have no idea why a woman would assign herself to a man in such a manner but they do and it is not for us to judge.
I did not grow up in a fundie home but there was hurt there as well. Unfortunately hurt can be found in every corner.
OriginalGeek
(12,132 posts)is being argued against here.
What is being argued is that some women are being oppressed even here in freedom loving America.
And I'm not even saying a woman doesn't have a right to have herself subjugated if she wants but, by the same token, I can speak out against practices that I find repugnant.
Speaking out and calling attention to disgusting things is a good way to get people to think about them. Maybe even think enough to think about changing.
It IS for us to judge. Everyone makes judgments every day. Some people judge pot smokers as dregs of society. Some people judge posters on a message board. Some people see oppression and say that it's wrong. Some people see religious bullshit for its bullshit and judge its practitioners. Others judge people with no religion as dregs. Some people judge others going into McDonalds instead of eating vegan. Some people judge gun owners as wacky loons.
None of these judgments mean we would take the others' right to choose their own way but we sure do strive mightily on these boards and in real life to get people to see our way of thinking and maybe make a change. Sometimes we even make a change ourselves because we saw someone making a judgment and they had a persuasive argument.
peace13
(11,076 posts)'Speaking out and calling attention to disgusting things is a good way to get people to think about them. Maybe even think enough to think about changing. ' That is some scary stuff right there.
OriginalGeek
(12,132 posts)Scarier than your sister subjugating herself to a religion? scarier than women being oppressed by men who "know best"? You don't think one should speak out against harmful things as one sees them?
That's scarier to me.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)All you have to do is measure the AMOUNT of hair/skin
each covers to figure that out.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)it not be? There are no laws in the U.S. making it illegal to leave your head uncovered.
tblue37
(68,421 posts)member who doesn't wear the hijab, it is irrelevant whether the country/state/city has a law about it or not.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Cultures within communities can be very oppressive, generally towards women. Women can often not know their rights or be to fearful to exert those rights. Speaking out can mean loss of family, support systems, etc.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)muslim women or women in muslim families?
saras
(6,670 posts)whathehell
(30,458 posts)and there are degrees of oppression..You don't have to go all the way to being stoned to qualify.
peace13
(11,076 posts)Funny to think that it is for modesty because the women and girls in the show are very beautiful with the scares on. They are attractive and to me it draws attention. Go figure.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)and I don' think that's the point, anyway.
peace13
(11,076 posts)My guess is that the wearer does not feel the confines that you imagine. I didn't say the scarf made them beautiful...I said they were beautiful. I was finding the irony in the modest scarf actually framing the beauty which actually has the opposite of the desired effect which is...attracting attention!
whathehell
(30,458 posts)I did get your point, although it seemed to be sitting alongside some others. Beyond that,
I guess I'm not sure why you find hijabed women particularly "beautiful"...I'd say the odds of their
being so are the same as other women: Some are beautiful, some are plain,
many are somewhere in between.
Your "guess" is that the wearer does not feel the confines that I (and quite a few others) imagine...Well,
you might be right, you might be wrong...I'm not sure any of the "uncovered" can be sure.
That being said, I can imagine that if you've never known anything BUT coverings around
your head and neck in 90 degree weather, you may not know just how "confined" you are.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)In my case, I find them pitiable - I believe they are religiously brainwashed. I don't find that attractive at all, in fact, I am usually sad for them.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The idea is to cover the hair to express modesty in the sight of God, and to not flaunt one's "beauty" in the presence of males who are not family members (you don't want them getting all hot-n-bothered over those lush tresses, now).
It's why, when you ring a doorbell in some Muslim households, there's a whole slew of scurrying while women grab their scarves so someone can answer the doggone door.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)Even their idea of the afterlife is sexual -- Seventy two virgins!
MADem
(135,425 posts)Women shouldn't be allowed to handle them, as they're shaped like a penis! Any food longer than it is wide should be chopped up by a guy--or perhaps a food processor, not sure how they're going to sort that out--because it might cause women to think sexual thoughts!
Hide the twinkies and the fajita wraps, too, while you're at it! Say goodbye to the all beef (or all lamb) sausages! You, Miss--in the chador over by the bananas! I'm calling the Morality Police right now! And you, young lady--put down that zucchini if you know what's good for you!
It's so funny....only it's not, for the poor women who have to live with this sort of complete and utter lunacy. I suppose you either laugh or cry!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2072488/Muslim-cleric-warns-cucumbers-sexy-women-bans-penis-shaped-foods.html
whathehell
(30,458 posts)movement to clothe animals (and piano legs!) in the name of "modesty" in the west, only I believe
that was at least two centuries ago.
Morality Police indeed....How 'bout the "Vegetable Squad"?
MADem
(135,425 posts)They actually will beat a woman in the street for showing their hair, having too much "figure" revealed by that belted raincoat, or wearing high heels and trousers that expose the ankles.
The European cleric who issued the "Vegetable Squad" ruling is said to be a nutty attention-seeker, but it's just one more thing! You have to wonder what motivated him? Perhaps his wife was setting out a plate of little gherkins and jabbed him with a "Thinking of you" comment?
whathehell
(30,458 posts)I have nothing against Islam, per se, but the fierce hatred/fear of women that the behavior you describe
signifies is pathological in the extreme, IMO.
I do love the "little gherkins" thing, though...BWHAHAHAH!!
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)... the head scarf is to avoid drawing attention.
Men, too, are supposed to dress modestly ... but there are far fewer cultural prescriptives associated with that.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Absolutely. You can wear the scarf or scandalize your community and behave like a whore. Totally your choice.
Although I have a Greek Orthodox friend who happily wears them in Muslim countries because then she doesn't have to worry about her hair.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)However, I am aware that American Muslim women do as they like, so whatever that is is OK with me.
Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #38)
Post removed
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Okay, I just burst out laughing with that. lol
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)make the world a better place. Thanks, Mom.
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)And I totally agree with yr comment about American Muslim women.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)except you're not American, and have never even visited
here, so on what would you base your "agreement"?
REP
(21,691 posts)They are mostly from Turkey and Jordan, and are 'culturally Islam' like most Westerners are 'culturally Christian;' that is, they're aware of the traditions and celebrations, but not particularly observant. They're educated and work outside the home. And the idea of veiling or covering is against what the Koran says to them about 'modest dress.'
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)There is a woman who works in my dentists office who wears one. Her parents are from Syria and she is very Americanized. She likes to wear it to keep her family history and culture with her. It's sort of like wearing a piece of jewelry that was handed down. She also likes the appearance and views them as an attractive accessory.
To each her own.
handmade34
(24,009 posts)high heels are oppressive to women... and from what I can tell they are voluntary 
...we humans do many things that are customary and do them willing... sometimes that doesn't mean they are not oppressive
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Hijabs are forced on females by their very patriarchal society which dictates and dominates how women shall behave, what they shall be or not be allowed to do, say, where they shall be allowed to go, etc.
I'm sitting here at my desk wearing flat boots with imitation fur. I have countless different styles of dress to wear. No man forces me to do squat. I dress to look however I desire. Some days I want to look hot, other days I want to look studious, others still I want to look fashionable. It's up to me, not some male-ruled society.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And that is a distinct issue.
Those are abusive situations, and the women are entitled to legal intervention.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)A society in which males rule, and females are subjugated, have to take orders from males, and are made to dress covered from head to foot?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And in the US, she is perfectly free to do so.
My gripe in life has to do with "Hooters" restaurants, which are exactly as you describe.
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)After all, women who claim to want to wear them have been bullied and pressured by patriarchal types and don't even realise they've been brainwashed! All these women who claim they dress how they want to dress obviously need someone there to save them from themselves and ban them from wearing stuff the other folk don't approve of!
btw, yr living in a male-ruled society...
whathehell
(30,458 posts)another poor analogy...and btw, you're living in a male-ruled society too....The entire world,
as far as I can see, is "male ruled" with some countries "ruling" more strictly than others.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)
And especially when you think how hard religion works at suppressing the human spirit and how much it vilifies humans...
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)It's a process that runs in the background, but has eyes and ears into everything the brain does.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)rather than religious, so maybe "culture" is oppressive to humanity too.
Both are male-dominated -- That's probably the most accurate observation.
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)and she always wore the hijab...Her take on it was as long as it's the woman's own choice to wear it or not, it's not oppression
choice being the operative word...
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...and they would compel women not to wear one, even if they want to.
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)It's not been said in THIS thread. Elsewhere? Got a link?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...and, no, I don't feel like doing a search.
It'll come up again.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Sadly enough, this kind of limited binary thinking is pervasive.
See: Death penalty... for murder.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)so many Daniel Pipeses and Pam Gellars
Liquorice
(2,066 posts)their young daughters to wear it. The father was adamant that his daughters should wear it, starting at the age of 8. The girls looked miserable. That was infuriating enough, but I finally turned it in disgust when one of the women forced her husband to give up his beloved dog because dogs are gross and unclean in Islam. She also claims allergies, but I think that was a ruse to make him feel guilty enough to get rid of his dog. It was so sad.
pitbullgirl1965
(564 posts)What ended up happening with his dog?
Liquorice
(2,066 posts)she made to give his dog away. The ad was complete with pictures of his dog looking up at the camera with his big sad eyes and said "free to good home." It was too much for me.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 12, 2011, 08:16 PM - Edit history (1)
When I was a child in the Midwest, we commonly wore headscarves on windy or cool but not extremely cold days.
I have such a scarf and, because I could not find my winter hat, wore it to an outdoor event recently. I quickly took it off.
I did not feel comfortable wearing a traditional head scarf in the US because wearing one is taken as a sign that the wearer is Muslim.
So, actually, maybe I am being overly self-conscious about this, but it seems to me that to some extent, the controversy over the religious dress of Muslim women is limiting the choices of American women.
Is this just me?
Or have any of the rest of the DU women hesitated to wear a headscarf because of this cultural stigma?
I like headscarves on windy days because they not only cover your ears but also protect the back of your neck from the wind and chill.
I'f love to hear from others on this.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)At -25 and blowing its a godsend.
a la izquierda
(12,315 posts)I have a beautiful collection of scarves. I wrap my head all the time (try living in Oklahoma in the winter: 35 mph winds out of the north= frigid wind chills). I don't really give a rats ass what anybody thinks. Let someone think I'm a Muslim. So freakin' what? I welcome the opportunity for some idiot to expose their ignorance.
I've studied, lived, and researched for years in Mexico. The indigenous women wear shawls to protect their heads from wind and rain, and have for thousands of years.
I don't care what anyone else wears. Their body, their life, none of my beeswax.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)a la izquierda
(12,315 posts)I can't tell you I'd be this brave in certain parts of the country. But I've seen women rolling around Oklahoma in full burqas. I always hope that no one gives them any "terrorist" grief.
YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)It was women only. It made me wish I could wear one. I wouldn't have to worry about fixing my hair, and I'd look beautiful! I'm agnostic bordering on Atheist, and I find them beautiful. I'd honestly wear one if I didn't worry about offending a Muslim.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)I betcha they take it off when they're not out and about, tho...
whathehell
(30,458 posts)It's still effing hot.
Yes, they do take it off when they're not outside, but then again, that's when they need it,
since they probably have airconditioning inside as well.
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)
People wear scarves, bonnets, hats, when it is hot and sunny for a reason. And not just because they are Muslim.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)Those are not scarves wrapped close to the skin.
The first picture is of a baby and her neck isn't covered. The second
is a mannequin wearing a 19th century bonnet...Not much choice for either of those.
YellowRubberDuckie
(19,736 posts)So, they probably know a thing or two about how to dress in the desert. Some of those men wear robes and head coverings themselves. I would trust they know what they are doing? 
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)The rest of the world's desert tribes, globally, go naked or near about.
Or maybe the Australian Aborigines, or the Kalahari tribes or ... (insert any of the thousands of other tribal cultures here) just may have learned a thing or two about equality and shrouding in the hot summer sun. Only SOME of those men cover up in the ME tribes - they have a choice. But ALL of their women do....
whathehell
(30,458 posts)
pitohui
(20,564 posts)besides the fact that wearing the scarf/hijab is NOT completely voluntary and some of us know real women who had to leave their countries/families to find freedom
if the scarf/hijab is so voluntary let a few men volunteer to wear it and see what happens
and while you're at it, turn off the effing teevee, stop putting propaganda into your head and get out there and meet real people
Cleita
(75,480 posts)wear it voluntarily and voluntarily is the key word, then I back them 100% in their freedom of choice to do so.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Locking peaceful women up, and then calling that liberation, doesn't seem right to me.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)and personality from a woman, making her anonymous and marking her as male property, commanded by a male deity and enforced by his male followers, is oppressive by definition. If you take the god threat and male control inherent in their religion out of the equation, will they still "choose" to wear it?
Tumbulu
(6,630 posts)and their only defense is to hide as much as possible from all males.
The thing I keep wondering about is this outrageous idea that Muslim men are so over sexed that they cannot control themselves if they see the slightest bit of female flesh. What is that about? Why are men in other cultures expected to control their sexual urges, but Muslim men are considered so helpless that the entire female population has to hide from them?
CTyankee
(68,152 posts)This is an excuse to keep women in bondage to a male controlled society.
That is all you need to know.
Monk06
(7,675 posts)his property under Islamic law. She has no more say over what happens to her than a sheep or a goat.
JCMach1
(29,195 posts)so it entirely depends on how you use it... with the exception that at the heart of it is a system of oppression. In this case, towards women.
peace13
(11,076 posts)And they seem to be able to speak for themselves!
Warpy
(114,580 posts)to wear one needs to know that it comes off as soon as she's out of sight if she doesn't want to wear it.
Hijabs (the simple scarf) are very common in my part of town. I barely notice them any more except that some of them are quite beautiful. The full body black garb is worn by the newest immigrants. I see them gradually dropping it in favor of the hijab or sometimes even nothing at all except modest western dress.
I can't imagine objecting to simple head scarves. They're attractive and they keep the sun off your head, very important in a desert like this one.
I've known many Muslim women over the years as fellow students, coworkers, patients, friends and now neighbors. I have never met one who was a doormat, although I'm sure they exist. If they are wearing any sort of Muslim garb in my neighborhood, you can bet your bottom dollar it's voluntary, at least if they've been here for at least a year.
It's a piece of cloth, folks. Try getting your panties in a wad over something more important, folks, like Bank of America dictating the terms of the Democratic Convention in Charlotte.
Liquorice
(2,066 posts)force their two young daughters to wear it. They started them out at 8 years old. The father was the one really pushing the issue. One of the other Muslim women said the girls were too young and it was taking away their carefree days of childhood to force them to wear it, but he insisted they must and denied that it was a burden for them.
The girls looked miserable, and the one girl said she was so embarrassed about it that she was wearing a hoodie in class all day to cover it. Those girls are being forced to wear it, and I'm sure there are many others in America going through the same thing.
Warpy
(114,580 posts)those things will be off their heads as soon as they get to school.
I've seen that a lot, too.
My coworkers who chose to wear the hijab never wore it at work, it just got in the way too much.
Skittles
(171,553 posts)women can be made to be very afraid to not follow religious/male protocol
Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)I think after reading this thread, there's confusion from some between a hijab and a burqa. A hijab doesn't cover the face at all, and I was jealous of my colleague (who was definately not subservient to her husband) coz having curly hair I have my share of bad hair days and a hijab would have covered up most of it.
I have a bit of a problem with people who hide behind 'concern' for women and trying to force them not to wear what they want to wear. imo, they're every bit as bad as anyone who'd try to force a woman to wear something she didn't want...
Little Star
(17,055 posts)her batterer was the best thing since sliced bread.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)What would the world do without people like you pushing people around and telling then what they can do and what they can wear?
Little Star
(17,055 posts)I never pushed anyone around or said what they could or could not wear.
I was merely pointing out that it is best to be cautious about what oppressed people feel because 'some' of it could come from the oppression/brainwashing. Some oppressed people actually believe what they are saying, but that does not necessarily make it true. Nor does it mean that they are not oppressed.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)of how you or I or anyone else thinks they should look. There are many many Muslim woman - just as there are may Christian or Jewish or Atheist woman who very assertive and liberated and no doubt many who are oppressed and explointed- and I wouldn't judge them on the basis of our one's cultural biases of how people should conform.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)peace
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)However within the context of islamic society the condition of women can only be considered 'dismally oppressed', and the religious dress codes are part and parcel of that oppression. Pretending otherwise is dishonest. Giving societies a cultural pass is dishonest.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)that demeans them as sex objects existing only for male gratification.
uppityperson
(116,016 posts)
http://www.cosmopolitan.com/
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Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I am rejecting an attitude I once held myself, that we should not criticize other cultures for their traditional behaviors, or at least moderate our criticism based on their traditions. All it takes is the realization that one is justifying forcing women to walk around in head to toe bags to understand that this sort of thinking leads to idiocy.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)and also bare in mind that people who try to whip up anti-Islamic sentiment are not doing it out of concern for Muslim or human rights - they are doing it with a much more nefarious agenda.
JCMach1
(29,195 posts)Violet_Crumble
(36,385 posts)Clearly me actually knowing her and what she thought doesn't account for much.
JCMach1
(29,195 posts)and yes, some where it for different reasons... check
But at its heart is the oppression of women by a patriarchal society...
I live in a place where young women are forced to wear it and that veil is rather thin here... it is one means of socially controlling women in Islamic society.
Little Star
(17,055 posts)they can't see the forest for the trees.
I would never trust what anyone who had a high likelyhood of being brainwashed said. And that certainly doesn't just apply to Muslims.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)Having said that, I do not support laws aimed at prohibiting religious dress by either gender.
However, I do wish there was a symbol of some sort people could wear that would make this point and make people wearing religious garb aware that, along with many of their other neighbors, I think they are pious dolts.
Cigar11
(549 posts)A Mosquito isn’t safe.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)...and often it's oppression.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Distinctive headgear, clothing, jewelry, etc. are all a sign of a belief in a fantasy propagated by some cult.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)Guess what?...We're all "irrational"...At least those of us lucky enough to
be experience human emotion.
whathehell
(30,458 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)household says so.
In some places, like parts of Iraq nowadays, women will wear the thing--when they never wore it before--just to avoid catching shit from fundy fellows on the street.
In Iran during the Shah era, you rarely saw hijab or chador in the north of Teheran (it was more common in the poorer south). Now you can't go anywhere without seeing it--it is the mandated "uniform of the day," as it is in Saudi Arabia and some other nations in the region.
No choice. No opting out. That's oppressive, if you ask me.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)but there are big differences elsewhere in the Muslim world. It's not all the same - as I'm sure you know. If one is talking about Muslim women in the United States - most, but not all are living a very westernized life.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It all depends on how "enlightened" the male head of household is.
It really shouldn't be that way, that one still has to rely on the grace and favor of the senior male in the home for the ability to dress as one pleases.
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)the Islamic Crescent on the status and struggle of women under Islam, I would like to recommend :
Viva Laldjerie - filmed in Algeria, directed by Nadir Mokneche
Ten - filmed in Iran, directed by Abbas Kiarostami
Both of these films can be streamed instantly from Netflix. You can also rent the film Kandahar, directed by Mohsen Makhmalbaf, from Netflix
I would consider them all to be must see for anyone in the west who wants to have an opinion (and aren't willing to go live over there) about the status of women and the function of laws and customs in the Muslim world concerning female attire. If you are going to base your opinions about these matters on media artifacts, you'd better get your hands on as many of them as possible and these three are critically acclaimed for good reasons.
Watch them and you will know that your former opinion about the "purely voluntary" nature of the veil was formed in heartbreaking ignorance.
-=-=-=-
Embarrassing Omission: The Circle by Iranian director Jafar Panahi, awarded 1st prize of the year 2000 Venice film festival (Lion D'Or).
This is actually what I had in mind when I recommended Kiarostami's Ten What a mistake! Both films are Iranian and deal with the oppression of women; Ten is an experimental narrative form in which a series of mostly women passengers in a Tehran taxi relate their stories and parry dialog with the female driver. The Circle is also unconventional as it is composed of unconnected episodes in the lives of different women. The Circle was cut short of completion by the Iranian regime but contains suspenseful sequences of action - Ten starts and stops at the pace of real life but is all talking. So I edited them together in my head. Following the 2009 attempted revolution, Jafar Panahi was put on trial by the Mullahs and his sentence was to be banished from working in Iranian film for twenty years. Watch Panahi's The Circle if you can get your hands on it!
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)"A Bed of Red Flowers"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelofer_Pazira
She is amazing.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Like any religion the Islamic faith has their reasonable followers and they have their extremist nutjobs who want to force their beliefs on everyone else. The are some Muslim women who choose to wear a hijab and there is nothing wrong with that, but when it is forced on women that is a problem and it is forced a lot more often than you would like to believe, women are treated horribly in many parts of the Islamic world.
In American culture we also enforce standards on women's dress that is discriminatory as well however. In American culture it is acceptable for men to go topless but women can get arrested for it. You may think this is different, but that is only because we view things through our own cultural lens and justify restrictions in our own culture while condemning restrictions in other cultures. In many parts of the world it would be completely acceptable for a woman to walk around topless, and when you think about it our culture is not that differen from Muslims in regards to requiring women to cover up although granted women do still have a lot more rights here than they do in Saudi Arabia.
MH1
(19,149 posts)
frogmarch
(12,251 posts)In a male-dominated society, few women will speak out for fear of repercussion.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)This is probably the far more common reason, I'd wager. They were raised to believe it is right, and whether or not it is fair or desirable, their internalization of the idea that it's how things 'should be' outweighs any nagging concerns about fairness or equity.
frogmarch
(12,251 posts)I do agree, and I think it can be applied to non-Muslims as well.
My sweet mother-in-law was a Christian, and she believed with all her heart that her duty as a woman was to kowtow to her husband, and to obey him, no matter what.
Pigheaded
(164 posts)Jew
American Catholic
American Druid
American Pentecostal
etc. etc.
PH
MADem
(135,425 posts)Talk about a guy who has gone through a variety of incarnations.
He's just shaved that mighty beard of his, and he looks more like the Matthew of old.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)whathehell
(30,458 posts)I think they'd go back to pants in a hurry!
Covering breasts?...Nah...Let's all go naked, lol.