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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMichigan Recount Problems Are Emerging - Thousands of Ballots in Detroit May Remain Uncounted
In Michigan's Largest Democratic City, Detroit, upwards of 59% of the total votes cast may not be available for a recount with Stein's effort, due to massive errors.
Detroit residents voting is not the problem, in the least. Residents of Michigan largest city stand in line each Election Day, as other voters in the State, with an expectation their votes will be counted.
Unfortunately, the latest information from the Detroit News proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, Detroiters have a 59% chance their votes might not be counted at all.
According to the Detroit News, 392 of the City of Detroit's 662 precincts are unavailable for recounted due to ballot numbers not matching poll book data"
Read More Here: http://www.reachoutjobsearch.com/2016/12/thousands-of-detroits-ballots-might.html
shraby
(21,946 posts)LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)The Problem Is Michigan Election Law....
"168.871 Recount; use of electronic voting system; use of voting machines; recount of absent voter ballots; procedures for conduct of recount; use of computer; testing software application.
Sec. 871.
(1) The board of canvassers conducting a recount pursuant to this chapter shall recount all ballots of a precinct using an electronic voting system unless 1 or more of the following circumstances exist:
(a) The seal on the transfer case or other ballot container is broken or bears a different number than that recorded on the poll book, the breaking or discrepancy is not explained to the satisfaction of the board of canvassers, and security of the ballots has not been otherwise preserved.
(b) The number of ballots to be recounted and the number of ballots issued on election day as shown on the poll list or the computer printout do not match and the difference is not explained to the satisfaction of the board of canvassers.
(c) The seal used to seal the ballot label assembly to a voting device in the precinct is broken or bears a different number than that recorded in poll records and the ballot labels or rotation of candidates' names is different than that shown by other voting devices in the precinct and records of the board of election commissioners."
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(lfby2hchpnkrl1bwixumiyzk))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-168-871&query=on&highlight=recount%20AND%20seal
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)There is NO DOUBT Hillary Clinton would win the state, period. Detroit is the largest Democratic City in Michigan - and the largest City for that matter. She would win Michigan if these votes are counted, hands down.
4139
(1,976 posts)LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Thus upwards of 292,587 (59%) of the votes cast in Detroit, likely will remain uncounted. Hillary Clinton "Lost" Michigan by the smallest margin in Presidential Election HISTORY with 10,704 votes.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)They are not going to be recounted. Huge difference.
brush
(57,034 posts)SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)But it's not supported by the story itself.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts)apcalc
(4,500 posts)4139
(1,976 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts)The official did not explain. So there. Donald won. So there. Ballots in these precincts are not recountable. Live with it.
putitinD
(1,551 posts)LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Have been going on since 2009, that we are aware of. More likely than not Tricky Ricky is well-aware of the problem but, since it helps him and his Republicans to have thousands of voters in Detroit suppressed, the chances he will do a thing about it is --- ZERO.
Aimee in OKC
(160 posts)Who knows, once they find out how unlikely it is their votes will be counted, they could be pissed off enough to do something about that.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)It has been passed to them and they are not happy in the least.
putitinD
(1,551 posts)and just didn't bother to fix anything so it is a lock for republicans. Without Detroit, no Democrat can win Michigan.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)And its' likely a GOOD question -- as in if Snyder really won in 2010 or 2014. Especially 2014, especially.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)I would be out on the street and in the state house
Jeffersons Ghost
(15,235 posts)RKP5637
(67,112 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts)roamer65
(36,961 posts)Invalidate our 16 EV's please!
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Along with filing a Writ of Quo Warranto in Federal Court:
According to Cornell University Law School (CULS), a Quo Warranto action is sought to determine if an individual has a legal right to hold office.
putitinD
(1,551 posts)vote has been broken since 2009, He never really got elected Governor.
Farmgirl1961
(1,564 posts)BainsBane
(54,530 posts)That's outrageous. It absolutely is enough to tip the election.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Yes for sure and our 16 Electoral Votes will MORE LIKELY THAN NOT go completely in Hillary Clinton's column.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)The 14th and 15th Amendments give a Constitutional right to a recount?
BainsBane
(54,530 posts)and equal protection.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)There is no right to have it recounted.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Not to be infringed. If the votes cannot be counted, can such not be considered infringement?
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)On Election night
Kingofalldems
(39,171 posts)I don't get it.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)I think the rule about not recounting precincts due to errors is stupid. But it's simply untrue to say the votes haven't been counted
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)They are UNOFFICIALLY counted on Election Night in Detroit (who should have caught the problem immediately), sent to the County for reconciliation and County Canvassing (which is where the errors should have been caught as a cross-check), then three weeks later -- the numbers are forwarded over to the Michigan Board of Canvassers for the Offical consolidated count (which was the third cross-check that failed).
But, according to you -- they are just counted on Election Night.....
Also, Michigan was not Officially Called by the Networks at all -- until November 28, 2016 -- or when the Michigan Board of Canvassers finished their reconciliation due to VOTE ISSUES in WAYNE COUNTY, MICHIGAN. I.E. -- Where the City of Detroit sits within.
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)Counted in election night. Just correcting the lies about the votes not having been counted.
The author is clearly implying that these votes weren't included in the totals, which is factually incorrect
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)For the second time. The 392 precincts were NOT COUNTED due to errors as noted six times over in this thread but here's the Detroit News take for it:
Michigans largest county voted overwhelmingly for Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton, but officials couldnt reconcile vote totals for 610 of 1,680 precincts during a countywide canvass of vote results late last month.
Most of those are in heavily Democratic Detroit, where the number of ballots in precinct poll books did not match those of voting machine printout reports in 59 percent of precincts, 392 of 662.
According to state law, precincts whose poll books dont match with ballots cant be recounted. If that happens, original election results stand."
Any questions?
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)The votes were counted and included in both the unofficial and certified totals. But because the number of ballots didn't match the number of signatures in polling books, those precincts can't be recounted, as noted in the article.
"According to state law, precincts whose poll books dont match with ballots cant be recounted. If that happens, original election results stand."
If the votes weren't counted to begin with, as you claim, then to what election results is the article referring?
There are 1,355,794 registered voters in Wayne County. 782,719 votes for President were counted, which equates to 57.7% You're claiming, per the article, that 59% of the vote in Wayne County was never counted. Obviously, that's impossible, since even with 100% turnout, the highest percentage that could be uncounted would be 42.3%.
MichMan
(12,985 posts)What is it about the part that states ORIGINAL ELECTION RESULTS STAND that you don't understand. All these votes were previously counted and certified by the Board of Canvasers.
Again, THEY WERE ORIGINALLY COUNTED. Due to incompetence by election staff (trained at the county level, not state level) they are not eligible to be revised per a recount. Either way, the vote count already certified still counts. No ones vote is not being counted!
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)IF the votes were counted then this would not be an issue as with Washtenaw and Marquette Counties:
"Elections officials in Washtenaw and Marquette counties told The News on Monday that votes in all precincts were reconciled."
Also, in Oakland County this happened:
"In the first six hours of Ingham Countys recount Monday, six of 30 precincts from Lansing could not be recounted. One of the ballot containers had a hole in it, making it susceptible to tampering and not recountable, county Clerk Barb Byrum said."
More:
"None had nearly as many problems as Wayne. But at least 13 of 222 precincts in Genesee County are not balanced. More than half of those were in heavily Democratic Flint, according to county canvassing reports. The election was still certified by its board of canvassers.
The trouble is theres too much leniency with the board of canvassers, said John Gleason, Genesee Countys clerk. Theyre not as stringent as need to be because they think it wont affect the outcome of the election.
Next, there is this quote:
When a recount is started, these numbers could change based on information discovered during the course of the recount, according to our procedures, Haroutunian said. You dont know until you get in the middle of it.
Or and this one:
State law spells out a prescribed criteria for determining whether a precinct can be recounted. Workers first check to make sure the number of ballots on the seal of the container matches the ballots recorded by workers on Election Day.
If the seal number matches, then we know its not been tampered with, Rozell said.
If numbers dont match, then workers can count all of the ballots in the precinct twice to see if there was an error made by workers on Election Night.
If it does not match after the second count, then its not recountable, Rozell said.
Entire precincts can be set aside in a recount if the ballots are stored in an unapproved container or if it isnt properly sealed.
What does reconciliation do:
"Make (one account) consistent with another, especially by allowing for transactions begun but not yet completed."
If the numbers cannot be reconciled, the precincts and ballots ARE NOT INCLUDED with the final count, plain and simple. This is not rocket science. It's math.
Lastly, there is this:
"Disqualifying huge numbers of precincts would make it almost impossible for the former New York senator to make up the votes, said Ernest Johnson, a Democratic political activist who worked to get out the vote for Clinton.
Its a real long-shot now because, if I were looking for 10,000 votes, the first place Id look is Wayne County, Johnson said. Thats a huge problem. ... But if anything good comes of this it brings up this problem (with voting machines) that needs to be corrected.
The quotes are from the Detroit News article ITSELF. With that, we are done with this useless back and forth when thousands are Detroiters votes risk not being counted, yet again.
MichMan
(12,985 posts)Not sure what Oakland County has to do with anything by the way
Sounds like Washtenaw and Marquette Counties had competent election staff. As to why Genesee and Wayne Counties had problems, I would have to ask the elected officials in those cities to explain how their staff messed up something so important. Since they are responsible for selection and training I would hope the voters hold them accountable. If they had done job correctly like the other 80 counties this wouldn't be an issue. My county in the middle of no where had no issues either....
Would be interesting to have Gleason explain how his staff screwed up so bad. Blaming the Board of Canvassers for not catching the screw-ups by his own staff seems to indicate he doesn't think his job is important enough to bother with it
I don't believe that boxes that appear to be tampered should be recounted, do you? If so, would you also agree if Oakland County found broken seals, damaged boxes and issues with poll book counts on multiple boxes & Brooks Patterson demanded they be counted anyway that you would be OK with it?
MichMan
(12,985 posts)Interesting that you quote vast parts of the article but omitted this part (again)
The certified election results would stand if a precinct is determined to be non-recountable, Byrum told reporters.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)Can someone post this law? Maybe the eagle beagles here can decipher the legalese.
uponit7771
(91,350 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts)unreliable and "Most of those [problem ballots] are in heavily Democratic Detroit, where the number of ballots in precinct poll books did not match those of voting machine printout reports in 59 percent of precincts, 392 of 662."
AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)How can you run an election and not count ballots casted? How do they legally and arbitrarily discard ballots? Unreal....
MichMan
(12,985 posts)They are not discarding anything. All this means is that due to discrepancies, these precincts are not eligible for a recount thus making the original count results stand
AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)"Unfortunately, the latest information from the Detroit News proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, Detroiters have a 59% chance their votes might not be counted at all."
From that site. I guess I don't understand all this. It seems to me that if you can't guarantee every vote counts, you need to go back and do an audit and recount everything. You can't may sweep it under the rug.
MichMan
(12,985 posts)100% of the votes were counted after the election. Those vote totals still count as originally certified.
Those precincts with the discrepancies however will not be recounted. The remainder of the precincts will be recounted and the totals from both groups will be what is reported.
Change the word "counted" to "recounted" in the quote you posted and that would be more accurate of a description.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Is Because....
Or in other words, voters attended the polls, cast a ballot, that ballot likely was accepted in the machine and NOT counted due to training and clerical error that any Clerk worth their salt, should ensure does NOT happen. Especially in 59% of the precincts, they are in charge of.
MichMan
(12,985 posts)From my understanding, the issue is that there are more votes recorded than voters. What they said was that if a machine malfunctioned when the optical scan ballot was inserted that the voters would put it through again. The election workers were supposed to reset the counter, but apparently failed to do so.
That means that there is a discrepancy between the number of ballots issued vs the numbers fed into the machine. These were counted originally, but are not to be recounted making the original count stand for that precinct.
While the state does appropriate funds for purchasing machines, the county is responsible for maintaining the machines and in charge of the election process as the County Clerk is an elected position. FYI, there has not been a Democrat elected to office in Wayne County in decades. Current County Exec Warren Evans has been doing a good job, but unfortunately long time former county exec Robert Ficano was saddled with a lot of ethical issues before losing the primary
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)First, do you live in Michigan? Second, do you have any insight on how votes are recounted in the State of Michigan?
So, again -- we will refer to the article at hand:
According to the Detroit News, 392 of the City of Detroit's 662 precincts are unavailable for recounted due to ballot numbers not matching poll book data.
These are CLERICAL AND TRAINING errors. Voters attended the polls, filled out a ballot, those ballots were likely accepted by the machine but failed to reconcile with the poll book as Election Workers failed to properly note the ballot to the name associated in the poll book.
Is this the voter's fault? If so, explain how? Should their votes not be counted due to an error that was no fault of their own? If so, explain why?
Also, before answering ANY of these questions, read the Detroit News article, as we would assume Journalists who we know at the Detroit News, got their "Headline" wrong too.
MichMan
(12,985 posts)First . My name is MichMan Go Green!
I have been voting in Michigan elections since John Anderson in 1980.
Second, you bolded the part that is important; read slowly now (recounted)
These are errors by the election staff and not the voters fault, but again read slowly, THE VOTE COUNT FROM ELECTION NIGHT STILL COUNTS FOR THOSE VOTERS!
Unfortunately since those same election workers did not catch the errors or give any explanations, those ballot boxes are not eligible to be recounted. Note this doesn't mean they don't count at all, it just means that the original count submitted on election night will be used for these specific boxes.
(If the Wayne County and Detroit City Clerks do that poor of a job of training, maybe they need to be replaced in the next election, but I don't live in that county, so my opinion on that is meaningless)
By the way, here is the Detroit News article and headline with quotes by Barb Byrum, a well known Democrat from Lansing
Half of Detroit votes may be ineligible for recount
State law spells out a prescribed criteria for determining whether a precinct can be recounted. Workers first check to make sure the number of ballots on the seal of the container matches the ballots recorded by workers on Election Day.
If the seal number matches, then we know its not been tampered with, Rozell said.
If numbers dont match, then workers can count all of the ballots in the precinct twice to see if there was an error made by workers on Election Night.
If it does not match after the second count, then its not recountable, Rozell said.
Entire precincts can be set aside in a recount if the ballots are stored in an unapproved container or if it isnt properly sealed.
At Ingham Countys recount operation Monday at the countys fairgrounds in Mason, ballots were stored in suitcase-like containers that were sealed with plastic zip-ties that had to be cut for workers to take out the ballots.
Byrum plans to have the ballot bags guarded each night during the recount by a sheriffs deputy.
Elections officials instructed Ingham County recount workers who reconciled the ballot numbers on the second count to count them a third time to verify the numbers.
The certified election results would stand if a precinct is determined to be non-recountable, Byrum told reporters.
forthemiddle
(1,431 posts)Would you be so willing to claim clerk error, and demand that all the votes for Trump be recounted, or would you be shouting fraud on the part of Republican officials in the evil county of Waukesha?
All election counts are the responsibility of local officials, and I will be shocked if Republicans don't start screaming fraud on the part of Detroit, and to tell the truth if the situation was reversed, we would be doing the same.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)again? I've never missed an election. Not one.
Eric J in MN
(35,620 posts)If the number of ballots doesn't match the poll book, there should be a recount to try to correct that.
MichMan
(12,985 posts)There are a number of things that cause the ballot boxes from a particular precinct to not be recounted. Note the key word there is recounted.
For example, seal numbers not matching, seals missing, holes in the box, & number of ballots not matching the poll book. There are possible innocent reasons those situations could occur and other possibilities that may show malfeasance. The people running the elections have the opportunity to explain those types of things when submitting the ballots after the election. Apparently in this case none of them did so, and the Board of Canvassers certified the election.
Most likely caused by election staff errors and not malfeasance, however since the recount officials can't prove it one way or the other, they are these are set aside as damaged goods so to speak.
Now that the recount is starting, since there were no reasons originally given for the discrepancies, the recount law deems those precincts ineligible for the recount, but (THIS IS IMPORTANT) the vote totals from election night will STILL COUNT.
(If the situation was reversed and there were multiple Trump precincts with "extra" ballots or broken seals, I'm pretty certain everyone here would be screaming about cheating etc)
Eric J in MN
(35,620 posts)...then the machines were probably taking in some ballots without recording them.
A hand-count would probably account for all thousand ballots.
MichMan
(12,985 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 6, 2016, 02:15 AM - Edit history (1)
From what I read, it is possible that the same one was fed in multiple times before it was recorded.
Doesn't mean that it was uncounted or counted twice, but since the election workers failed to note or correct the counters the ballot box is considered compromised and the totals originally recorded will be used. I don't have any inside knowledge, but just trying to read and understand
Once again, the votes as counted after the election will still count, but the box is set aside and not recounted. I think that is because it could possibly indicate potential post election tampering, so without being able to prove it one way or another it is considered compromised
wordpix
(18,652 posts)thus, not worthy of recount b/c Hillary will likely win the state
C Moon
(12,517 posts)I sure hope every single man and woman who is asked to fight in some Trumped up war, sits down and says "go to hell!"
I certainly wouldn't sacrifice my only life for a country that doesn't even allow us to honestly elect our leaders.
DetlefK
(16,448 posts)Vinca
(50,861 posts)Once again . . . where are the Clinton lawyers?