I notice a lot of posts trying to okay what Russia did to our election.

[shraby]

You can try, but you will not change the narrative on du.
You'll find we are against ANY interference from foreign governments AND McConnell's threat to make it partisan if the word got out before the election. We WILL call it traitorous because that's what it was.

[Little Star]

1. Amen

[TheBlackAdder]

30. This pisses me off, esp. since 2 years ago Reps were saying Putin was going to manipulate Obama!

[billh58]

73. I'll second that...n/t

[lunamagica]

74. This is a CRIME which shall NOT be tolerated!

[ananda]

2. It will never be OK.

But it will be.

[greatauntoftriplets]

3. It's an unprecedented constitutional crisis.

I call it what it is; you make an excellent point. K&R.

[AgadorSparticus]

4. Only good thing to come out of it is at least you can see their true colors

We certainly have us some trolls

[LovingA2andMI]

27. Bingo....

There Are Trolls.

[enid602]

50. SS/Medicare

As if last week's revelation that Trump will decimate SS and Medicare weren't enough to show their true colors. Can't wait to see hat else they have in store for us.

[Raster]

5. NOT OK! NOT OK! NOT OK! NOT OK! NOT OK! NOT OK!

[cwydro]

6. Who in hell thinks this is ok?

Apparently I've missed those posts...

[shraby]

7. They were in the threads of posts. If you look, you'll see them.

[mnhtnbb]

16. Check my thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028352754


Look at posts # 7 and # 10.

Wanting to argue semantics. Legal issues. Get over it and look ahead to the next election.

[cwydro]

19. Thanks.

I see what you mean.

Smh.

[LaydeeBug]

23. mine too. I have the "show us the proof" crowd because the CIA isn't enough for them

seriously. If this shit weren't true, it'd be funny.

Check number 15, for starters:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512652253

[Hekate]

94. Auto removed was sure busy in that thread. By any chance ...

....do you remember their name?

[truebluegreen]

55. Do you think that the call to charge someone with treason

Or a call for a new election is somehow not a legal issue?

[onenote]

79. two posts out of 95?

One of which merely argued that what some posters are proposing is inconsistent with the Constitution.

[Botany]

20. # 15 in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512652253

[doc03]

82. There are plenty just read replies to any op on the Russian thing. They say

they didn't do anything wrong treason can be charged only in time of war. It's like this asshole can do anything
and we are powerless to do a damn thing about it. If the tables were turned we would hear the Republicans saying we
have to use 2nd Amendment remedies,.

[libtodeath]

8. It will never be okay with me.

It was an act of war.

[Jean-Jacques Roussea]

28. we need to levy sanctions against Russia

The fact that we won't retaliate even slightly is so pathetic. It's like if Russians bombed us and we just sat there, half the country denying it happened.

[malaise]

9. I don't think any of us thinks it's OK

What I noted is that the US and other Western powers have interfered in elections across the globe.

It is as traitorous now as it was then. Ask Venezuela about current American sabotage.

[RoccoR2]

13. looking in the mirror sometimes is a hard thing to do n/t

n/t

[Jean-Jacques Roussea]

29. Let's let ISIS fly drones in the states

After all "it's only fair" .

[Arneoker]

32. Whatever others have done doesn't make what Russia does right

In terms of Venezuela, if you ask a lot of Venezuelans (I happen to know a few people from there) they would say that the most serious sabotage of their country is coming from their own President. That's probably the majority right now. If the U.S. government has done anything other than encouraging democracy there, then by all means they should be called out for it. But that shouldn't be used to distract from other shit going on.

[Abu Pepe]

61. And any country in whose election we meddle have every right to be pissed

and retaliate economically or diplomatically.

As we do in this case.

[malaise]

65. Allende was pissed

to the last shot

[Abu Pepe]

109. I am not sure what your point is.

We all known about Allende and others the US has helped overthrow.

Are you suggesting we shouldn't give a shit when someone does it to us?

That is like saying only the pure can be outraged?

[KingCharlemagne]

67. Or Iran - nt

[malaise]

68. Indeed - from decades ago

for us non-aligned folks watching people die around us for others 'interests' is not democracy.

[JI7]

75. what is Obama doing to venezuela right now ?

[JI7]

84. so has the KGB

[Greybnk48]

10. K&R n/t

[uponit7771]

11. Some of it is still focusing the problem being HRC without even mentioning Russia !!

[BainsBane]

22. Because for them the enemy

Is the Democratic Party and the Democratic voters who overwhelmingly voted for her. They are not our friends or allies.

[Alekzander]

12. I have not noticed any of those posts thinking it is OK but could have missed them. That said; it

is not OK & anything who thinks it is I can not possibly comprehend where they would be coming from. How could anyone believe it is OK for another country especially an adversarial one to interfere & try to pick the winning candidate for their purpose. That is totally crazy.

What I am surprised about is the fact for now anyway there is not more of an outcry about this. There should be mass demonstrations demanding a complete & full investigation of what happened. As far as I am concerned also, it will not happen but there should be a complete do-over of the POTUS election if what we believe is found to be true.

[truebluegreen]

14. REally? And do you think foreign interference is the biggest issue here?

Is anyone shocked about Russia's actions? I'm not and I doubt if we can change their behavior.

Mitch McConnell, otoh, should be up on charges, along with the rest of his cronies who don't have a problem with this as long as it benefits them.

[AgadorSparticus]

26. Maybe we can't change their behavior,but we sure as hell can change ours.

And yes. Foreign interference IS a big thing. It is an act of war. It is treason. All of it needs to be addressed. Comrade McConnell included.

[truebluegreen]

44. So what do you plan to change in our behavior?

And I don't know if you meant imply it but "foreign interference" is not "treason".

Maybe the Democrats (we know the pukes won't) should be pushing for election integrity on all levels instead of sitting around waiting for totally predictable bad shit to happen and then getting outraged about it.

[AgadorSparticus]

80. Foreign interference is not treason. But it usually never happens on its own.

There's usually someone to help on the inside. That is treason. I expect to see our elected officials, regardless of the letter after their name, to actively support and get to the bottom of this. That is the change, I want to see. I am worried about the future of this country and would like reassurances from credible sources that we are safe again.

[truebluegreen]

85. Fair enough.

Respect for the integrity of others' governments and internal political processes is up there on my list too.

At this time I'd rather go after the integrity of the vote, and the slow motion coup that has been taking place since at least 2000 in the form of the new Jim Crow and voter suppression laws, non-standard and insecure voting methods, all that. It has been happening in front of God and everybody and somehow, nothing much happens. Maybe if that gets fixed we can start building a truly representative government.

I find it kinda amazing that anyone thought we were safe before, to tell you the truth.

[AgadorSparticus]

86. The 8 years Obama was president, I never feared a hostile foreign takeover.

I never feared we would go to war because he took something someone said about him the wrong way. I never feared that nuclear weapons would be launched because someone called him names. So, yes. I felt a helluva lot safer when OBama was president.

[MFM008]

52. Yes in this " election"

It is. It's OK for the KGB to appoint the monstrous maggot to rule over our lives???? That's NOT our biggest problem???
No excuse. No defense. No discussion.

[truebluegreen]

54. Humm. I think we as Americans would be well-served

not to get too self-righteous about this.
.
.
.
.
Oh, wait, I forgot. We're exceptional.

And to answer your question, no, Russian interference is not our biggest problem. Getting our own house in order is more important. It has to be a measure of how corrupt and dysfunctional our system is that two highly disliked candidates were our only choices. This kind of crap wouldn't have worked otherwise. Truth is the American government has been ignoring the people's wishes for decades; now it will be plain to see that international business interests will rule us, until we all decide to change it.

[MFM008]

57. How can you get your "HOUSE" in order

when there are squatters in it.
I get the whiffs of Sandersisms here but I liked our candidate just fine and worked for and gave her money.
As many of us on this site did.
Ill get self -righteous because disgruntled morons have stuck me with a fat maggot who is going to do away with everything I believe in and have for almost 50 years and most likely destroy the ACA which will cause my mom to die. Its really pretty simple when you look at it.

[truebluegreen]

58. OK.

All the best.

[Hekate]

97. I can see you have a very special pov. Hard to get our house in order when someone is...

....pouring gasoline around the foundations and waving a lighter around. They may not like our housekeeping, but they have no right to burn the place down and drive us into the streets.

[truebluegreen]

103. Karma's a bitch, isn't it.

[JHan]

110. Karma isn't the lesson here, and it never is..

Better to acknowledge the truth : Not a single democracy in the world is perfect. Keep hoping for that sunnyshine government and that perfect brand of politics that passes all moral purity tests.

- you'll never find it , all you'll find is that purity politics is a fool's errand. Which is not an excuse for politically criminal behavior however..

The reality is the US is an empire ( even if she tells herself she isn't) and is in a game with other large empires. We do our bit to hold our government to account, and should never stop doing so, but we should never justify outcomes that could jeopardize our fellow citizens, like the election of a man who could dismantle social safety nets in one fell swoop, because of the ill-effects of American interventionism elsewhere - I had nothing to do with that, neither did you, nor your neighbor..

[SammyWinstonJack]

15. Why would anyone try to do that?

[Augiedog]

17. If any democrat had done this the republicans would be erecting scaffolds on the White House

lawn. One can only imagine the virulent seething indignation on the Sunday talking heads shows. The clarion calls for the heads of the treasonous bastard democrats would echo relentlessly in the halls of congress.

The people who aided, allowed and encouraged the overthrow of our election system and our democratically held republic need to be exposed and held accountable. We need to remember what treason is, and we need to remember the guillotine, the French solution to betraying the people and nation.

[Jean-Jacques Roussea]

31. Republicans were already drafting impeachment plans for HRC on Nov 7th

And were are ours?

[rzemanfl]

51. I was expecting to see the word "guillotine" here eventually.

It is going to be an interesting next few years.

[mfcorey1]

18. I totally agree!!!

[BainsBane]

21. it's disgusting

Not only does it show lack of concern for their country and fellow citizens but also utter contempt for democracy. These same people insisted a few DNC emails amount to throwing a primary but have no problem with a foreign nation taking away our rights to democratic self rule. They have exposed themselves, and I will no longer tolerate their lectures about the party. I suggest no one else give them cover either, even if you happen to agree with them on certain points.

[charlyvi]

49. It also shows gross stupidity

They would have us believe that propaganda doesn't work. That funneling false news stories through social media, pumping selectively chosen leaks through Assange, an avowed Clinton enemy, who then selectively chooses what he wants to release is no problem....who cares where the leaks came from huh? They're still the unvarnished truth! By the way, where are those RNC leaks Julian? As though none of that had any influence on this election. No, they think we are absolving ourselves for nominating the candidate they loathe by blaming poor little Russia! Not so, Russia wasn't the only factor in this travesty. But the interference mattered. It mattered big. 30 years of FOX news has taught us, if we cared to examine it, that propaganda does work. But to some, state sponsored interference in our election is no biggie. Besides the CIA is the source, so the info is tainted right away! After all, the CIA doesn't know shit compared to Glenn Greenwald! Even though a blind man could see it in a minute.......all the way back in July when the news blurbs began about Russia being the source of the Wikileaks docs and the IP addresses of some of the social media posters coming from former Soviet satellite countries. But hey, this effort wasn't unprecedented at all......we're just Red baiting.


Rant over.

[progressoid]

24. A lot? More like very few.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. They are d-e-p-l-o-r-a-b-l-e

[Wounded Bear]

37. Way to do exactly what the OP is talking about...

[AnotherMother4Peace]

34. Yes, they ask for "evidence" that the hack changed the election - Smerconish on CNN was attacked

yesterday with this same line of questioning from a rabid GOP hack named Spicer. Smerconoish was pretty angry.

Russia/Putin attacked our election on many fronts (just like you would do in a war to take over a country), including paying an army of trolls to disrupt and cast doubt - and now the trolls are back demanding proof and evidence of the hack and the effects. Yes, they're back.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

35. The only allegiance those asswipes have is to the almighty $$$, Mr. Greed and his minions FU!!!

[Wounded Bear]

39. Fuck Bebe and our Repub traitors...

who invited him to issue a subversive speech to our congress.

Another RW asshole from another country.

[Paladin]

38. Lord, deliver me from Chicken-Shit Democrats.

If you can't register outrage at the way our electoral process has been ruined, what the hell are you saving your outrage for? Wars have been started for far less.

[Hekate]

95. Someone upthread....

...is telling us we have to get our own house in order before we complain about Putin's behavior. That's special.

Sure, GOPutin is splashing gasoline on our walls and flicking a Bic, but we have to be sure we are without blemish before we can tell them to get the hell out and stop waving around an open flame.

[yallerdawg]

40. When are you against "any interference"?

Before the election?

When the Russians stole DNC documents and released them on WikiLeaks? When there was this "proof" of the DNC "tipping the scales" against Senator Sanders (I-VT)? When Debbie Wasserman Schultz was demonized, vilified and booted out just before our Democratic Convention for "favoring" our Democratic nominee?

No.

When Hillary, her campaign and the Obama administration repeatedly told us the Russians were hacking Democratic operatives only, and were stealing even more documents and doing a drip-drip-drip release breathlessly reported by every form of media in the world? When Hillary made these claims on world-broadcast debates seen by multi-millions, and her opponent's utterances included, "No puppet. No puppet. You're the puppet"?

No.

How about Election Day?

60,000,000 plus voted for this guy? More didn't vote? Some didn't vote to stop him?

No.

The next day?

Was this "What's wrong with the Democratic Party?" Was this "What's wrong with your candidate?" Was this "Hillary Clinton baggage"? Was this "Stop Russia from interfering in our elections?"

No.

Then - "Green Party Recounts!"

"Hey, maybe something happened?"

And now, when recounts end in a big, fat nothing...?

YES! Putin and Russia interfered!

Where were you?

[Jacob Boehme]

42. Bloomberg titled this The Pessimists Guide to 2017

However, it may end up being an eerily accurate prophecy. Judge for yourselves.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/pessimists-guide-to-2017/

[mountain grammy]

43. I think you're equating disagreement with American policies

With agreement with Russia's. Average citizens around the globe have suffered due to American interference to protect American interests. It's wrong no matter who does it to whom. Americans who think we're immune are wrong.

[tenderfoot]

45. The skepticism of the rightward among us says a lot.

eom

[KittyWampus]

47. On various forums, it's quite often Sanders supporters.

[tenderfoot]

48. A lot of "Sanders supporters" are right wing trolls

eom

[KittyWampus]

46. A number of them supported a certain someone during the primaries.

It also extends beyond Russia to anyone perceived as being sufficiently supportive of Sanders, Ellison and Tulsi Gabbard.

[WhiteTara]

53. I've been told that this is our payback for

interfering with other countries.

[truebluegreen]

56. And what is your response?

[WhiteTara]

69. Shocked silence. nt

[truebluegreen]

70. Interesting.

[WhiteTara]

71. ...

[truebluegreen]

72. OK

I was wondering what shocked you: having our collective hypocrisy pointed out, or becoming aware of it yourself.

[Maru Kitteh]

87. The hypocrisy of excusing Putin/Russia because western powers

did bad stuff sometimes? That kind of hypocrisy? Yeah, that is pretty stupid.

I mean, it seems like not too long ago some of those same folks were running around the internets, screaming about a "rigged" and undemocratic process (boy that was Trump's favorite fucking word for a while too, wasn't it?) and now all of the sudden, those same folks are flapping their gums with all kinds of excuses, justifications and outright admiration for Putin, RT and Tangerine Tiny Hands while that unholy coalition goes about the business of beating liberal democracy to death with a meat hammer.

It was easy to see then (and even easier now) that they were never Bernie supporters, or Democrats, or democrats, or progressive in any way. And now they prove it by outing themselves as Putin fanboys.

[JI7]

91. also the kgb did some fucked up shit also

[truebluegreen]

104. How about not "excusing" either?

Not ours (yes, ours, not some unnamed "western powers&quot , not theirs.

[Maru Kitteh]

111. Perfect. DEAL WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. Putin is playing Trump like a violin

while the ideological prostitutes of both the alt-left and the alt-right lift their glasses and dance to the music. Meanwhile, beaten and shaken to her core, democracy slips away under the bright stars of a cold Russian sky.

There is no excuse for justifying the illegal actions of a murdering fascist authoritarian mobster to interfere in our election. Period.

[Different Drummer]

59. K&R for exposure. n/t

[alarimer]

60. To me, they wouldn't have been able to steal it if it wasn't so close.

The difference of a 70,000 votes or so in a few states. The fact that Clinton won the popular vote is immaterial because the margin in California alone is more than the difference in the total popular vote.

Having said that, there are a lot of factors at work, including possible (I'd like to see actual proof of this) Russian interference, voter suppression (this may in fact be more important since some 300,000 people had provisional ballots in WI), various other Republican dirty tricks (including voter ID) that have made it more difficult for some to vote.

And I do think the Clinton campaign may have taken some of those traditionally blue states for granted and spent too much time in places like Arizona which were never going to go blue anyway.

It is important that we establish the degree of Russian influence, but we should not use it as an excuse to avoid examining how the Democratic Party can do better, especially with regard to local races and Congress. The Presidency is not the only thing at stake here.

Now, the Senate, knowing of possible Russian intervention, needs to deny Tillerson as SOS, and other positions that might be vulnerable. They also need to investigate this thoroughly. Some Republicans are already making noise about this.

[pnwmom]

64. 2.8 million votes isn't that close. But the reason DT got as many votes

as he did is that we live in a highly partisan era and regular Republicans held their noses and voted for him.

Also, 7-8 million votes got thrown away to smaller parties.

[Hekate]

98. The election was not even close

[alarimer]

107. Some 80,000 votes in three states

That's pretty damn close. The popular vote surplus was ALL in California, a state she was never going to lose, so we had better stop using it as an excuse. Obviously, the Electoral College needs to go, but until it does, the popular vote is irrelevant.

Clinton got 8.7 million votes in California, Trump got 4.3 million. That difference is 4.1 million, more than enough to account for the popular vote difference.

[workinclasszero]

62. + 100

Trump is a russian plant

[Kingofalldems]

63. But look at the Louisiana Senate race!!

And congrats to Bristol Palin!

[libtodeath]

66. There are folks here that have higher "interests" then what happens to us.

[RKP5637]

76. Anyone can join DU, so posts can be questionable. n/t

[onenote]

77. I haven't noticed too many posts condoning what the Russians did

i have noticed more posts arguing that proposals that Obama declare martial law, or arrest Trump, or otherwise block Trump from taking office through some means have no basis in US Constitutional law as well as a number of posts asserting that it is essentially a fantasy to think that a sufficient number of electors will rebel against voting for Trump to deny him the presidency.

I see nothing wrong or suspicious about such posts.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

78. How many are new accounts?

I've seen at least a couple of those.

[Hekate]

96. There have been a wave of newbies, plus some dormant low post accounts coming up....

It's gotten so I check people's join-dates.

[demon in basement]

101. I'm a new account

And I hate Vlad Putin and his errand boy Donnie! This election was stolen! And Trump must be prevented from taking office by whatever means necessary!

[Cha]

81. Thank you, shraby!

There was a couple I saw but they must gone..

[theglammistress]

83. It isn't okay - and it isn't going away, either.

The trolls - Russian bots - whatever, can shitpost all they want, but this meddling in our election isn't going away. We're at the beginning stages of something very large here. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

[byronius]

88. They're trying really hard to deflect and defray this particular site.

Like it's some sort of power center. Hmmm.

[Hekate]

99. We used to joke about Agent Mike. Agent Boris and his Macedonian teenage sidekick .....

....aren't funny.

[Tatiana]

89. When the effing C-I-A comes out from the shadows to make a statement...

That's an indication that the $hit is serious and real.

It's appalling that the only American agency that appears to not be compromised is the CIA. The FBI is clearly infiltrated. There are probably Russian spies throughout most other branches of our government.

It is time to fight fire with fire. I hope all patriots will unite to protect us from this horrible threat to our way of life and our independence.

[McCamy Taylor]

90. Who could ever be ok with this?

I do not want to be Russia's colony. If it starts heading that way, I am so out of here.

[Iggo]

92. Cute, huh?

[Stand and Fight]

93. I've noticed that too. An alarming number. Perhaps the Communists are up to their old tricks again?

[Hekate]

100. Only the names have been changed...

There's a continuity of culture from the Tsars to the USSR to the modern Russian oligarchy. As regards Putin, I've never forgotten for a moment that he used to run the KGB and his essential character and methods have never changed.

[UncleTomsEvilBrother]

102. One Demographic looks in amazement

The Demographic who struggled through...
Trayvon Martin
Unclean Drinking Water
Voting Rights Being Eroded
Guns Being Poured Into our Neighborhoods
Peaceful Protests
Under Employment...

...kinda sits and wonder why all the noise about the Russians. We are only mildly amused by the Trump swell. When people on here were normalizing the Tea Party rhetoric by refusing to center its white supremacist element, we were yelling at the tops of our lungs that something like Trump would happen. Slavery and Jim Crow had already taught the demographic that white supremacy hated our demographic more than they loved their health care, their education, any country, and even themselves.

Because of (y)our fear (and frankly, (y)our rational minds) and refusal to even engage with w/s element, things may not get better for a long time.

Let's continue to dance around the subject. Doing so, will definitely limit our response to how we confront Trump his threat to our sovereignty.

[BumRushDaShow]

105. Being from the demographic that you write about, I'll posit (take note)

that Russia is chock full of - white people! The Caucus Mountains (origin of the term "Caucasian&quot run through where? The last bastion of "superiority". Food for thought (although we know that this was racist German-originated nonsense but it was and still is pervasive) and analysis of the theory.

[secondwind]

106. K&R

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. Too bad this can't be pinned.