We fought the whole g.d. Vietnam War to keep Russian influence out of a small country

[KamaAina]

halfway around the world, costing 50,000 lives and shattering FSM only knows how many thousands of others. And now it's come to this.

[ladjf]

1. Thanks for clearly getting this Russian involvement into an accurate perspective. nt

[KamaAina]

2. De nada.

[Nitram]

26. Si, verdaderamente de nada. Vietnam used Russian support until they were independent

... and didn't need it. The Viet Kong had no love of either Russia or China, and the Vietnamese people just wanted their country back in one piece. You don't know very much about the Vietnam War.

[iluvtennis]

4. + 1 nt

[FarCenter]

3. We fought the Communists allied with the USSR while we were allied with the Spanish Fascists

It is not nations; it is interests.

we have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow...

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Henry_Temple,_3rd_Viscount_Palmerston

[yurbud]

18. yep. and we fought Germany in WW I BEFORE A there were Nazis

and after WW II, be backed fascists and Nazi collaborators in many countries.

[pinboy3niner]

5. The official number of VN War U.S. military fatalities is currently 58,315

[FailureToCommunicate]

13. ...

[pinboy3niner]

14. I knew more than 60 of them

Roommates, friends from school and back on the block, guys I was with in-country, those I trained with in Army Basic Training, Advanced Infantry Training, and Infantry Officer Candidate School class of May 2, 1968.

I wrote their names down on scraps of paper, including those I didn't learn about until many years later. I put the scraps of paper in drawers in different rooms of my house. It only dawned on me many years later that that was a psychological defense, when I collected all the scraps together in one place--and had to face them all together for the first time. Bad move. That year kicked my ass.

[FailureToCommunicate]

30. One is too many. 60 is unbearable.

I was close to only two names on the Wall, and that seemed, seems, too awful.
Goddamn war. Goddamn masters of war.

[pinboy3niner]

36. When people died, we said they were 'wasted'

We were spot on.

[duhneece]

38. And we just lost another...to Agent Orange? or maybe not

My friend Gary French came back to New Mexico to be my Campaign Manager when I ran for office. He died of brain and lung cancer on November 28 from exposure to Agent Orange, he believed. He was brown water Navy.

I can't know, but the knowledge that HE believed it is enough.

[Paladin]

6. Good point. Thanks. (nt)

[A HERETIC I AM]

7. Or.....

We fought the Viet Nam war to turn a tiny, Fort Worth based helicopter maker into a major aviation company worth billions.

(Bell Helicopter)

[malchickiwick]

8. Hey! Hey! Donald Jay! How many vets have you sold out today??

I was going to say "How many pussies have you grabbed today" but I wanted something more in line with the OP, which makes a very spot-on point that should have everybody thinking WTF?!

[The Wizard]

9. We mistakenly

thought the Tonkin Gulf had as much oil under it than Saudi Arabia had. As soon as they realized it wasn't there we started pulling out troops. Shortly after the last combat troops were out OPEC raised prices knowing we no longer could used Vietnam as a hedge against OPEC. The last combat troops were out in the summer of 73, by fall OPEC quadrupled the price of crude. It's always about oil.

[90-percent]

10. On the plus side of the Viet Nam War

Our 58,000 dead produced over a million dead on the Vietnamese side. So, we are bad ass. Don't fuck with us. But, I guess Manchurian Candidates are OK?

All those wars and all that sacrifice to preserve and defend the "American way of life" and I lived long enough to see it destroyed by a child my country willfully elected.

-90% Jimmy

[pinboy3niner]

22. On the plus side, it kept us from pouring troops into wars in Central America

Conservatives were pushing hard for sending U.S. troops in, but at least for a little while Americans learned the lessons of Vietnam and were not ready to stomach more useless war. That was the main issue of Veterans for Peace in the mid-80s.

How soon we forgot those lessons after that...

[Bear Creek]

11. President Johnson

Had a settlement and Nixon arranged against it. So the GOP extended the war and more of are troops died because of it. Ever wonder if the whole thing against Russia was just so our military complex could make lots of money?

[pinboy3niner]

12. iirc, after John Kerry's testimony and plea to get out, 14,000 more U.S. troops died

[MANative]

15. And during Nixon's escalation, my father was deployed twice, was exposed to Agent Orange...

and developed cancer that was directly attributed to that exposure. He died five years ago. I still blame Nixon and the Republicans.

[Bear Creek]

20. I'm Sorry

I remember the airlifts to get out.

[MANative]

21. Thank you. It's especially raw this Christmas season because we also lost my youngest brother...

unexpectedly a few months ago to a post-surgical blood clot. To paraphrase Her Majesty, 2016 has been an "annus horribilus" which I will be glad to see done. I'm not too hopeful about the condition of our country in 2017, either.

[pinboy3niner]

24. R.I.P. to your dad and your little brother

DU gave me amazing support when I lost my little brother, who had served with me in the Army's 101st Airborne Division in Vietnam. I would not have been able to bring myself to attend his memorial service had it not been for DU.

Agent Orange deaths are not counted as VN War fatalities or eligible for inclusion on the Wall, but you may want to check out the 'In Memory' program at the Wall.

http://www.vvmf.org/inmemoryprogram

R.I.P.

[MANative]

31. Thank you for your kind words and for the suggestion about

"In Memory". I'll definitely check it out.

We always know we'll lose our parents, and it's always devastating. There's nothing that can describe the incredible pain of losing a sibling, though. I don't know that I'll ever feel quite "normal" again. My heart goes out to you, too. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

[Nitram]

16. Well, not exactly, Kama.

North Vietnam welcomed Russia's financial and military support, but they were quit comfortable with their own brand of communism. Remember the Domino Theory? That if Vietnam went communist, it would spread throughout southeast Asia? Well, Vietnam did go communist, but it didn't spread like wildfire thought the region. Nor did Vietnam embrace Russia. The Vietnamese have always been staunchly independent.

[jack_krass]

17. Dont stop him, he's on a roll (nt)

[FarCenter]

19. According to a Vietnamese I once knew, Ho was regarded as the founder of a new dynasty

In Confucian societies, dynastic change occurs when the ruler loses the "Mandate of Heaven" and thus the support of the people. A new ruler rises up from among the people, gains their support, and triumphs over the opposition, thereby gaining the "Mandate of Heaven".

Ho Chi Minh was regarded this way as the new legitimate ruler who ousted the French colonials that had lost the Mandate of Heaven.

[Nitram]

25. He also led them in a long war that defeated the French.

The Vietnamese wanted their country back under any government or leader that could unite the country against its enemies. They have never been very interested in politics in particular as much as getting their country back.

[Initech]

23. And if I remember, we also fought World War 2 to keep the Nazis from controlling the world.

And now they're coming out of the woodwork and supporting Donald Trump. Hitler was only 70 years ahead of his time.

[Hoyt]

27. We were stupid then, and we'd be stupid now to rekindle cold war.

[Nitram]

28. Hoyt, you have the nerve to USE Woody Guthrie as an avatar and you can say that

we were stupid to fight fascism in WWII? You sound a little mixed up.

[Hoyt]

29. Yeah right. Don't think Guthrie would call for demonizing Russia. Trump likely,

Russia no. You are the one mixed up.

The OP was about Vietnam, not WWII. Guthrie could read too.

[Nitram]

39. I thought you were replying to the post above you that referenced WWII. MY apologies.

[Hoyt]

41. No apologies necessary, but thanks.

[INdemo]

32. You know I have thought about this many times since all this damn Russian

theft has happen..think about this also...Our Fathers and grandfathers fought for over 4 years to keeps the Nazi 's/Fascists from taking over the World and here in 2016 one has been elected to be President..

[flamingdem]

33. Good point

what hypocrisy

[Lithos]

34. But, he served his equivalent time..

After his draft deferments...

What do you expect from someone who shirked his responsibility and let some other mothers son die while he visited the doctor to cure his latest std?

[onenote]

35. and many of us thought that was an incredibly stupid and self-destructive thing for the country

[duhneece]

37. This may the best framing I've heard...

Now, my second choice is, "Russia committed an act of war"

Lives and limbs were lost, many hearts broken by our attempt to keep Russia's influence out of a small country, Vietnam.

[onenote]

40. And how many here thought that was a good idea?

Most progressives thought the right's obsession with Russia, including the McCarthy years, the labelling of anyone who didn't support the Cold War as "Comrade" or "traitor" was stupid.

I'm not saying that Russia is a good actor -- it's not. It's a very bad actor. But referencing back to our paranoia about Russia and how it led us into the Vietnam quagmire seems odd.