I was thinking about the issues surrounding the hijab yesterday

[Coventina]

(this has been cross-posted from the Feminism and Diversity group)

The central question seems to be about "choice" and freedom of religion, both things I fully support.

But here's where the support for veiling of women falls apart for me:

I recently heard an (unveiled) Muslim woman give a talk and she explained how the choice to wear the hijab is a personal one, between the woman and her relationship with God. That's just fine and dandy. I would never stand between anyone and their God.

After all, nuns in the Christian church (traditionally) also veil themselves, because they have become the brides of Christ.

But, wait a minute, Muslim women unveil for their husbands (and other women and sometimes other close male relations).

This is where it all falls apart for me.

Why does the husband (and other excepted parties) get the privileges of God?
Nuns don't unveil (traditionally) even for their fellow sisters in the convent.

If it truly is between the woman and her God, why does the husband get to be a party to that?

It all comes down to a cover (bad pun, I know) for misogyny.

This is why I am opposed to the hijab.

Having said that, I would never EVER condone attacking a woman by forcibly removing any part of her clothing.

I will politely disagree, give my reasons, and continue to fight misogyny wherever I find it, but that's as far as it goes.

Putting your hands on another is assault, pure and simple.

[MADem]

1. There are no veils between God and oppressed worshippers in Islam.

It's in the Quran, or a hadith, somewhere.

I am of the personal view that it was a pre-Islamic custom (not universally applied) to veil women to protect them from rapists and assorted kidnappers/evildoers. It evolved into a stylistic oppression of women that was demanded by males in the family unit to control women and use them as property.

It's stupid if it's used as an outward expression of "piety." Most religions have a commentary that says "Keep your faith to yourself; being a blowhard is phony" in more stylized language, of course.

As a fashion statement? Or a way to keep the sand out of your hair in the high desert? Great idea...also good, I would imagine, for a bad hair day.

But as a religious expression I think it's bogus and unreasonably ostentatious, especially when, instead of making the woman "invisible" (which is the supposed intent of the garment) it DRAWS attention to her.

[pangaia]

26. Do you feel the way Tibetan Buddhist monks dress is bogus and unreasonably ostentatious?

[MADem]

37. I think all religious garb is attention-seeking.

It's all about the "Look at meeeeeeee" aspect.

Those monks stick out like a sore thumb.

[HoneyBadger]

2. Fashion and grooming in general are sexist and unhealthy

No one cares if a man wears the same thing everyday. And no one asks a man to shave every hair off his body. It has been proven that hair is healthy. And do not get me started on a dying hair and using cosmetics. Subjecting your body to unnecessary chemicals is dangerous.

[MADem]

60. Someone hasn't seen any recent issues of Men's Health, I take it?

That fashion stuff is BIG BIZ for the males in our society...and the hair removal, too!

As for hair dye and cosmetics....look at the (shudder) President-Elect....

[TreasonousBastard]

3. I find it equally insulting to men, implying...

that we can't control ourselves if we see a sexy woman.

The hajib is one of the more extreme methods of dealing with women's sexuality, but orthodox Jewish women wear wigs so they don't excite anyone but their husbands, and there are the Amish, conservative Christians, and a lot of others who are not into miniskirts, makeup, and 5" heels. The sari doesn't cover the face, but covers just about everything else.

Small comfort, but at least the hajib isn't footbinding. Our species has spent far too much time defining gender to ridiculous extremes, and women too often have born the brunt of the more noxious ideas.

And I am not so sure that those 5" heels are female freedom-- vast amounts of time, money, and pain are spent by Western women trying to conform to arbitrary standards. (An hajib or a boob job-- your choice...)

[Squinch]

4. I think the hijab is sexist and oppressive. However, I would fight to the death for

the right of a woman to wear it wherever she wants if it is what she chooses.

Burqas, though, that's a different story. Has no basis in religion, is simply an women-hating example of cultural abuse. I think burqas should be outlawed in public places.

We have no problem rejecting cultural practices that are anathema to American values. For example, slavery is culturally accepted in Chad and Mali. When people from those countries come here, we do not allow them to import that particular cultural practice of slavery, because it is abhorrent to us. Likewise, the attempt to erase the female identity under a full covering is abhorrent, too, and we should have just as little trouble rejecting it as we do slavery.

[Coventina]

5. Agree completely that anything that hides the identity of a person should be outlawed.

If we are citizens of a political entity, we have the right to be able to identify each other. That's part of the rights of citizenship.

[Ms. Toad]

8. Slavery is inherently not a choice.

That statement cannot be made about what people wear. You're comparing apples to oranges.

It is as if you reduced all of sexual activity to rape and declared that becasue rape is forced sexual activity that all sexual activity is bad.

To the extent that clothing choice is forced, it is bad. BUT merely wearing a hijab does not mean the woman was forced to wear it - any more than merely engaging in sexual activity means that the person engaging in sexual activity was forced to engage in it. By and large they weren't

It's clothing - and people get to choose what they wear. Pants with a waist below the bum are offensive to me. I don't want to see your tighty-whiteys. Maybe I would outlaw them if I ruled the world - but I shouldn't. Wearing those pants are as much a choice as my Muslim friends' choices to cover (or not - I have friends who fall in both categories).

[Squinch]

17. Yea...nope.

[cwydro]

9. Yes.

What you said.

[Ms. Toad]

6. You seem to be intentionally twisting what the Muslim women I have spoken to

say.

It isn't that God is the only one who gets to see her unveiled (your interpretation) - it is that the choice is a personal matter between her and her God as to whether to cover, to what extent, when, and in front of whom - not the actual view of her face. Her husband doesn't get the privileges of God - or a say - in what choice she makes. If her choice is to uncover at home, more boadly, in front of women only, or wherever it doesn't give whoever sees her face teh privileges of God. Catholicism is a different religion than Islam - so there is no reason to expect that a similar practice will be identicial when practiced even by another person within the same religion, let alone by people in a different religion.

By imposing your view of what covering means on her assertion that the entire spectrum of covering or not is a choice between her and her God, you are standing between her and her God. You are telling her that because her choice doesn't fit within your narrow narrative in the way you think it should, that it wasn't really her choice.

[Coventina]

7. I am not intentionally twisting anything. This is what I was told by a Muslim woman who said she

was speaking on behalf of her community.

If the choice is a religious one, it should at least be consistent, and I don't see any consistency in the practice.

Why is it OK for some folks to see her uncovered and not other folks? All those criteria (women, her husband, etc.) are all misogynist choices.

[Ms. Toad]

10. But you're imposing your narrow restrictions on the broad principle she stated.

She, with her God, gets to choose. She didn't say she gets to choose between two options: God is the only one that gets to see me uncovered versus everyone does. You are the one claiming she must make a binary choice covered in front of everyone but God - or uncovered everywhere. That is the twist you are placing on what she told you. Her true range of the choice she makes with her God is a broad spectrum from completely uncovered to completely covered.

Since you say you do not want to get between her and her God, why on earth do you believe you get to limit the choices among which she and her God get to choose? Imposing restrictions that her God does not place on her is twisting what she said - whether you are doing it intentionally is something you'll have to ponder. But it is twisting what she's saying.

[Coventina]

12. Why is it that these supposed "choices" are suspiciously all male centered?

That's why it all falls apart for me.

How about lesbian Muslim women? Do they choose to remain veiled for other women?

[Ms. Toad]

15. It is up to each Muslim woman - lesbian or not.

I don't happen to know any Muslim lesbians (my gay Muslim friends are all male) - so I can't speak to the choices of any individual lesbian Muslim to remain veiled or not. But whatever they choose is just that - their choice.

If you truly believe - as you say you do - that you have no right to get between them and their God, you will respect their right to choose what is right for them. Stop putting the word choice in air quotes, implying you don't believe them. Stop analyzing any specific woman's choice through your non-Muslim eyes and finding it inconsistent or wanting. (Now - if she tells you she is dressing as she is because she is forced to, that is a different matter. My comments here are addressed to the statement you say you respect - that the choice belongs to the woman and her God, but toward which your commentary is anything but respectful.)

Go to an interfaith gathering. Spend some time getting to know one or more Muslim women well enough that you can have a respectful conversation with them about their beliefs (one in which you start out leaving your disrespectful binary beliefs at the door) and ask them why they draw the line where they do.

[Coventina]

16. I put "choice" in scare quotes because I happen to NOT believe it truly is a choice.

Which was the point of my OP.

If I did believe it TRULY was a choice, then I would respect that. It's because I disbelieve it that I wrote the OP in the first place.

Why is it that (compared to women) only a VERY TINY MINORITY of Muslim men in the West wear the Thawb?

Why is they are allowed to leave traditional dress behind, but the women aren't?

All of these "choices" that you seem to think are so freely made just do not hold up to any logical scrutiny.

[Ms. Toad]

18. Then why pretend to support individual choice

("I would never stand between anyone and their God,&quot when what you really mean is that you support individual choice only when these women make the choice you approve of.

I have spoken to enough Muslim women who have made a choice (both ways) to know that for them it is a choice. Have you ever actually sat down and had a heart to heart with the women you are trashing as, essentially, too stupid to understand that their choice is not really a choice? That's a pretty misogynistic attitude.

Again - participate in an interfaith gathering. Befriend some real live Muslim women - and when you know them well enough, have a conversation with them about why they have made the choices they have. The comments you are making about grown women's ability to choose for themselves to cover (or not) are just as vile as and mysogynistic as those who would mandate they cover. But until you choose to expose yourself to conversations with real women, you're unlikely to lose your prejudices.

[romanic]

19. What is a real live Muslim woman.

One that alligns with your opinions on hijabs/veils.

[Ms. Toad]

22. I don't have an opinion one way or the other as to whether someone should wear a hijab.

I believe every woman has the right to make that choice for herself.

What I find offensive is the OPs refusal to believe a woman who says she has made a free choice (whatever that choice is) (1) without evidence (2) because it isn't a logical choice or (3) because some other women don't have a choice. Oh - but wait - the OP is only making those demands of women who make a different choice than the one the OP has designated as logical.

"Real live" was perhaps a poor choice of words, but what I am suggesting is that the OP actually strike up a friendship with women who have actually made a choice and have some one-on-one conversations about the choice - rather than pretend to support choice, but reject that choice as lying or not logical or not freely made without ever actually sitting down and having a real conversation with anyone who has wrestled with the choice.

[pangaia]

27. Having followed your discussion here,

your views seem to me logical, without attachment, and very well stated..

The few Muslim women, I know, married or not, would agree with you.

It's a difficult discussion, for sure.

[LanternWaste]

38. You consistently focus on little straw men of your own design.

You consistently focus on little straw men of your own design, pretending it relevant while merely advertising a bias; regardless of your realignment...

[Coventina]

20. Nope. I support all kinds of choices I don't approve of.

And, I am not trashing Muslim women, so stop accusing me of that.

I'm just questioning whether they are making a truly free choice.

So far, I have yet to see any evidence that it is, indeed, a true choice.

The evidence throughout the Muslim world is overwhelmingly that it is NOT a free choice.

[Ms. Toad]

21. When they tell you they are making a free choice, as the woman you mentioned did

and you insist that it is not a "truly free choice" you are saying that they are lying - or don't know their own mind. Treating a woman's statement that she chooses to cover as presumptively false unless she provides evidence to the contrary is treating her - at best - as a child, incapable of recognizing when choice is freely made.

[Coventina]

23. That would be all very well and good, if it weren't for the fact that millions of women get murdered

beaten, etc. etc. in the Muslim world (and even here in the United States) for not adhering to these blatantly sexist codes of dress and behavior.

I'll believe Muslim women make such choices freely, when there is no longer an obvious pattern of abuse at work.

[Ms. Toad]

24. So because many women are raped,

You don't believe consensual sex is a possibility. Gotcha.

You must be aware that in many places, including the US, there are women who have chosen to wear a hijab who have been beaten and assaulted or arrested for doing so - and that, in many instances, it requires immense courage to wear a hijab, right? The pressure on choice of clothing comes not only from some in the Muslim world - but also from people like you, who ridicule (or worse) a woman's choice to wear a hijab.

http://www.startribune.com/lori-saroya-minnesota-muslim-women-share-hijab-experiences/306856681/

More formally: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/11/heres-what-we-know-about-hate-crimes-us Choosing to be visibly Muslim, as you are wearing a hijab or other covering, opens you as a target for ever-increasing hate crimes against Muslims.

Since you obviously have no desire to actually speak with women making these choices, as an alternative wear a hijab yourself for a few days and see how easy it is for you to choose to wear a hijab.

And do you really belive this woman is wearing a hujab because she has no choice?

[Coventina]

29. You are placing all kinds of words in my mouth that were never there.

It is you who is being disrespectful and rude, not me.

I am well are of the bullying of women who wear the hijab, I addressed that in my OP.
I never said anything about not practicing the Muslim faith.

What I argued was that the wearing of the hijab is not religious, it is a misogynistic requirement by MEN NOT GOD against women.

[cwydro]

31. You are incredibly brave for posting this.

K and r.

[JHan]

34. It maybe a free choice, but it being a free choice doesn't unshackle it from the misogyny..

"free choice" is often never really "free" - it's sometimes an illusion, based on what you know and what you're exposed to, which could be limited.

So I will defend a woman's right to wear a burka, but I won't excuse away the misogyny that conceived it: Its original purpose was to treat and see women as second class citizens. Denying women the agency of free movement in a social setting is to deny them choice and power.

[stevenleser]

48. True. A burka or face veils purpose is to disappear women from society and having any power therein.

Other types of head coverings may not be as severe but I think the purpose of all of them is to minimize and stigmatize women.

I'm very wary of anyone who, from a liberal perspective, would argue so vociferously in their defense without acknowledging their obvious issues.

[stevenleser]

25. "All of these "choices" that you seem to think are so freely made just do not hold up to any logical

scrutiny"

I tend to agree with this. I'm simultaneously wary of some governments efforts to outlaw them but I also understand those efforts and see some logic behind them as well.

This isn't a simple issue, but one thing I am sure of is that even those women who profess that Hijab is a choice, it is a choice that is based on a gender biased caricature of a culture and a caricature of a religion that has been indoctrinated into them.

I'm reminded of women here on the far right who fight against women's rights and opportunities. Some of these women are even in positions of power in organizations or in congress yet they fight against the ability of women to generally have the right to attain those positions through hard work and smarts. What is behind that? Choice? Is that what we are calling that?

[Coventina]

30. Thank you. I just don't understand why that is so difficult to see. n/t

[MADem]

49. She cannot really speak for anyone other than herself.

Check out My Stealthy Freedom. http://mystealthyfreedom.net/en/

These women speak for themselves.

[Coventina]

51. Well, I really don't know what to say about that, except that she was from our local Islamic

Speakers Bureau.

And, she was giving her most frequently presented topic, "Women and Islam."

[MADem]

53. Trump talks a lot, too, but that doesn't mean what he says is true.

She covers her own opinions with a (pardon the expression) veil of authority, but here's the bottom line:

1. Women who believe that a veil is a representation of their piety have been told that by male religious scholars, or by their mothers who got it from male religious scholars. They didn't come to that "choice" on their own.

2. Women who "choose" to go unveiled in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the Yemen will be beaten soundly for their "misbehavior." In other countries, like Egypt and Turkey, they need to watch where they step or they'll 'get it' too. If they have an asshole/authoritarian father or husband, they could get the belt, or worse, if they step out of line.

It's a patriarchal construct. Given truly free choice, it would be a "choice" for a bad hair day.

Great fashion statement, but when mandated, it's just not on.

[Coventina]

54. Yes, I totally agree. When I pondered her reasoning after the talk, the logic just didn't hold up

for me.

But, it might be that is what these women are taught to believe.

[MADem]

56. Oh, it absolutely IS taught. Carefully, too (Like the song from South Pacific)

And even when the women are strong-minded, determined and intelligent, the culture pushes down on them every doggone day.

If someone tells you that you are inferior every day of life, and you are treated as inferior in all your public interactions--even interactions with other women who have bought the Big Lie--pretty soon you'll start to believe it.

It's an insidious little trick. It'll take a helluva lot of leadership by example to brush that mess away.

So much ... conditioning. After a while, it's not surprising that some women regard conditioning as choice, when it's anything but.

[Coventina]

57. So here's my next question: why are some liberals (see this thread) so DETERMINED to defend it?

[MADem]

58. Because they don't understand it and don't have meaningful conversations with anyone who

practices it in the classic middle eastern fashion. Why? Because the society itself is rather insular and indeed tribal. Those lines on the map were drawn by a couple of clowns named Sykes and Picot, after all.


Also, there's the whole "freedom of religion" thing. We're not in the habit of getting up in people's faces about their belief systems.

Women raised in USA in a lightly religious or secular household who had to spend any time in that milieu would have a difficult time adjusting. It is an un - naturally segregated society, but that segregation is ingrained over centuries of patriarchal culture. It takes a couple of generations of living in a western environment for much of the bullshit to fall away.

[guillaumeb]

55. This:

By imposing your view of what covering means on her assertion that the entire spectrum of covering or not is a choice between her and her God, you are standing between her and her God. You are telling her that because her choice doesn't fit within your narrow narrative in the way you think it should, that it wasn't really her choice.

is in my view the best answer that I have read.

[Arazi]

11. The hijab also isnt religiously mandated

http://www.masjidtucson.org/submission/perspectives/women/dresscode.html

The applicable Koran passages @ female dress are in the link and nowhere does it even mandate headcovering

[Coventina]

13. True, and this is why some devout Muslim women do not wear any head covering.

The unveiled Muslim woman I heard speak about this said that it is a choice born out of their religious convictions, but not required.

[MADem]

50. There are no veils between supplicants and Allah. nt

[etherealtruth]

14. I have truly bifurcated feelings about the hijab

I do find the chador, niqab, and burka to be born solely out of misogyny and my belief is that they oppress (and are designed to oppress).

An important thing to keep in mind is that these coverings are cultural vs specifically religious. In the Quran the rule of Modesty is prescribed for both men and women.

My experiences with Islam (and Muslims) are generally very different than the generic American experience. I think what many are attributing to "choice" is often more attributable to family and cultural pressures than actual "free choice" (I acknowledge most of us act in accordance with family and cultural pressures).

Like you, regardless of the reason a woman wears a hijab or burka, for that matter, I am adamantly opposed to attacking, ridiculing and bigotry directed to the women in this garb.

[bhikkhu]

28. That is one confused argument

The essential thing is that we all have traditions for what is appropriate in public, and what is appropriate in private. It is considered healthy, normal and functional to be able to make that distinction. Where women wear the hijab, the custom is to wear it in public spaces, and it is not necessary in private spaces. European culture had the same custom at one time - where women's hair was to be covered when in public.

The roots of tradition are cultural, though they often derive from or refer back to religious ideas. In both the bible and the koran there are minor suggestions of proper dress, which can be interpreted as requiring headcovering. Neither are particularly convincing, but they are (or were) used as an argument of authority for cultural practices.

People are allowed to chose what traditions they follow, and its nobodies business really (especially when it comes to trivial matters like how they dress) whether or how they understand those traditions. If I were to make an argument against misogyny I'd chose a different path.

In other words, I don't give a damn about the hijab, but having the right to vote, to equal protection, to divorce, to property rights and travel, etc, are much more important. The hijab an easy and visible target, but attacking cultural traditions should not be the point, and seldom arrives at anything useful.

[Coventina]

32. I totally agree with you for the most part.

But here's where my concern lies about that:

Yes, custom is custom, and every culture is entitled to theirs, in so much as that it is not used as a form of oppression.

I would argue that these customs regarding dress in the Muslim community ARE used as a form of oppression against women, both here and in the lands in their birth. Not adhering to such dress codes is a CRIME in such countries as Iran, Saudi Arabia, and others. Whereas, it is NOT a crime for a man to wear Western dress in those countries.

In the US and Europe, the VAST MAJORITY of men adopt Western dress (the cultural norm) immediately. Why are the women not allowed to do the same?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Not a fan of it but if it is voluntary it is the woman's right.

People should be able to wear potato sacks if they are so inclined.

[Jake Stern]

35. Question for those who are defending the hijab as a choice

Would you also defend the old timey dresses worn by women in Christian groups like the Fundamentalist LDS as a choice?

If not why?

[frogmarch]

36. The hijab is an emblem

of the oppression and subjugation of women. It has no place in America, even when worn by women who, for whatever reason, want to wear the fucking things.

I wouldn’t assault anyone wearing a hijab or any other misogynistic garment, but I’d probably give the wearer a look of disgust.

[NCTraveler]

40. The last thing a "wearer" needs is your look of disgust.

"I wouldn’t assault anyone wearing a hijab or any other misogynistic garment, but I’d probably give the wearer a look of disgust."

[frogmarch]

42. Yeah, for sure.

The recipient would be forever traumatized.

[NCTraveler]

43. What other victims of male dominated and oppressive religions earn your look of disgust? nt.

[frogmarch]

45. Willing ones.

[NCTraveler]

46. Now it makes sense. You lack understanding of oppression.

Keep giving victims your look of disgust. It's not a statement on the victim.

[NCTraveler]

39. Many Catholic women will go to the confessional....

and be told their husband is the head of the house and it might be best not to question him. Yet few view that in the same way they do the hijab. Not only that, it is done behind closed doors so few even consider it.

[Coventina]

41. I totally agree that all three Abrahamic faiths are full of sexism, misogyny, racism and violence.

Reading the Bible and the Koran will cure any doubts in that area.....

[LAS14]

44. Women appear naked in front of their husbands (and vice versa), but most...

...don't in front of any other male (doctors excepted).

Years ago more parts of the body were just as taboo as genitals are now in our culture.
Why do we get to draw the line for other people?

[Coventina]

47. My point is that when you drill down beneath the surface "reasons"

it is really all about male control of women.

[get the red out]

52. Forced to wear it

I am against it in cases where a woman is forced to wear it or face consequences.

[JCMach1]

59. It's more complicated than you can imagine... there are women who wear it for cultural reasons

(that tends to fall under misogyny).

Women who don cover for religious reasons (sometimes legit).

Some women also don the hijab for political reasons (Islamism, or political solidarity).


Having said all that, I have met a number of ardent feminists when I lived in the MENA region who wear cover. At the same time, I have met young who who consider themselves 'conservatives' dress with bustiers and other provocative clothes that would even be a bit scandalous in the West.

The simple answer is don't judge a woman by their cover, but by the content of their character!