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mfcorey1

(11,001 posts)
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 06:12 AM Dec 2016

5,000-year-old "nativity scene" reportedly found in Egypt

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/5000-year-old-nativity-scene-reportedly-found-in-egypt/ar-BBxv6b3?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout

Italian researchers may have discovered the oldest nativity scene ever found, predating Christian nativity art by about three millennia, according to the travel and exploration website Seeker.

The rock painting depicts a newborn between parents, a star in the east, and two animals. It was discovered on the ceiling of a small cavity in the Egyptian Sahara desert, Seeker reported. Researchers believe it dates to the Neolithic or Stone Age.

“It’s a very evocative scene which indeed resembles the Christmas nativity. But it predates it by some 3,000 years,” geologist Marco Morelli, director of the Museum of Planetary Sciences in Prato, Italy, told Seeker. The site reports that Morelli and his team discovered the rock art in 2005, but only now are revealing their findings under the title “Cave of the Parents.”

68 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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5,000-year-old "nativity scene" reportedly found in Egypt (Original Post) mfcorey1 Dec 2016 OP
Were xtians 5000 years ago? yortsed snacilbuper Dec 2016 #1
They were eating dinosaur. AngryAmish Dec 2016 #2
You are talking about a Hebrew story (Noah) Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #4
No. This PREDATES Christianity. Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #3
this predates Mithraism and Judaism Bucky Dec 2016 #44
I did not say that these images were representative of Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #55
Fascinating Sanity Claws Dec 2016 #5
That would be cool, huh? Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #10
But were there shoppers? milestogo Dec 2016 #6
Ha! Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #11
Interpreting an image is highly affected by what the viewer has known and experienced. TexasProgresive Dec 2016 #7
I agree. It is too old for us to ever be Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #12
Agreed LW1977 Dec 2016 #20
Well, while true that most Americans think of a Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #23
The baby looks like a wine bottle with the corkscrew still in it... elehhhhna Dec 2016 #33
Proof that children have always led parents to drink! Bucky Dec 2016 #45
the baby is flying. Must be Jesus. elehhhhna Dec 2016 #35
This message was self-deleted by its author edhopper Dec 2016 #30
Merry Horusmas ? Achilleaze Dec 2016 #8
Agree. That would be the most obvious connection, given Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #13
The image predates that story by close to 1000 years TexasProgresive Dec 2016 #14
So far as we know. Many stories have origins in Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #18
As far as we know- That's just it when it comes to prehistory we make lots of assumptions. TexasProgresive Dec 2016 #19
Yep, that is the nature of the social sciences. When we Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #21
It's a short story. Watch the video. It should be the whole thing. TexasProgresive Dec 2016 #22
OK. Will do later! Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #28
Just as many different groups have flood myths too. Christianity is not original NightWatcher Dec 2016 #37
I always figured that the proliferation of the flood myths... Wounded Bear Dec 2016 #66
Weren't most of the Greek heroes also of "virgin birth"... Wounded Bear Dec 2016 #47
Absolutely! rusty fender Dec 2016 #53
Actually, none of them were. okasha Dec 2016 #59
So did Mary... Wounded Bear Dec 2016 #63
Dear Bear, okasha Dec 2016 #67
GA Wells is the most well respected scholar on Jesus Drahthaardogs Dec 2016 #60
Maybe so... Wounded Bear Dec 2016 #64
Doubt it Drahthaardogs Dec 2016 #65
The story of Jesus is not an original work. JNelson6563 Dec 2016 #9
There are very few sacred stories that do not contain Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #16
"The cave was universally identified with the womb of Mother Earth..." Donkees Dec 2016 #15
Caves symbolize many things. Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #17
My response is in context to the conversation concerning 'nativity scene'... Donkees Dec 2016 #24
Understood. Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #26
Discussing this research near the time of the winter solstice, brings to mind the myths of sun-god Donkees Dec 2016 #29
Yes, this is true. Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #38
This is not a Nativity scene... Mike Nelson Dec 2016 #25
Who knows?!? Silver Gaia Dec 2016 #27
I see man, woman and child edhopper Dec 2016 #31
Seems like a reach? MineralMan Dec 2016 #32
I think you misunderstood my post edhopper Dec 2016 #34
OK. Well, people are always looking for some MineralMan Dec 2016 #39
Cave paintings edhopper Dec 2016 #41
How do we know it's a child pintobean Dec 2016 #42
There is no evidence edhopper Dec 2016 #43
It was a tongue in cheek question pintobean Dec 2016 #46
I should have put a wink edhopper Dec 2016 #50
Maybe next year we won't have to suffer thru X-mas. ileus Dec 2016 #36
So is your attitude. calendargirl Dec 2016 #40
That's no child... TCJ70 Dec 2016 #48
Auditioning for a job on the History Channel? LeftyMom Dec 2016 #58
My hair isn't crazy enough to be on Ancient Aliens... TCJ70 Dec 2016 #61
The word "nativity" doesn't necessarily refer to the birth of Christ. WillowTree Dec 2016 #49
Acoss from the left hand of the man on my right. Although it is not a star on high in the sky lunasun Dec 2016 #51
"Kilroy" strikes again Historic NY Dec 2016 #52
Most of the Christian stories were taken WhiteTara Dec 2016 #54
I figured out what it means, yortsed snacilbuper Dec 2016 #56
Looks like two people and a kid to me, and a headless cow Blaukraut Dec 2016 #57
What I see is a man, a woman and a child Douglas Kawasaki Dec 2016 #62
Well... you know what this means, don't you? Warren DeMontague Dec 2016 #68
 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
2. They were eating dinosaur.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 07:41 AM
Dec 2016

Most Bible stories are retelling of proto Indo-European myths. Look up the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Silver Gaia

(4,547 posts)
4. You are talking about a Hebrew story (Noah)
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:01 AM
Dec 2016

that Christians adopted from Judaism, and while what you say about Gilganesh is true, this find relates to Christianity alone. Just wanted to clarify that.

Silver Gaia

(4,547 posts)
3. No. This PREDATES Christianity.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 07:54 AM
Dec 2016

The article says this.

There are parts of the Jesus story that are similar to other religions (Mithracism, for instance) that were popular in the Middle East at that time, and many symbolic elements found in other mythologies. The implication of this find is that the symbolism of the nativity is not unique to Christianity, and may have been part of older mythologies found in the area

It is not unusual for new religions to borrow symbolism, sacred places, and even ideas from older ones. One reason for this is that it is easier to gain converts when there are elements of the new religion that feel familiar to people.

Bucky

(54,087 posts)
44. this predates Mithraism and Judaism
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 11:36 AM
Dec 2016

For that matter it predates about half of Egyptian mythology. So you see God had a plan all along

Silver Gaia

(4,547 posts)
55. I did not say that these images were representative of
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 05:13 PM
Dec 2016

either of those religions, nor of any KNOWN faiths. We cannot know about beliefs for which there is no written record. We can only guess. We must also realize that most faiths, except those that began with a particular person (like Christianity and Islam), did not suddenly spring into existence, but were passed on orally for possibly thousands of years before there is written evidence of them. Most religions are not "pure," either, and will contain traces of older religions. None of this happened (or happens) in a vacuum.

Silver Gaia

(4,547 posts)
10. That would be cool, huh?
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:43 AM
Dec 2016

We will probably never know, though. It could be related to the story of Isis, Osiris, and Horus, though.

TexasProgresive

(12,159 posts)
7. Interpreting an image is highly affected by what the viewer has known and experienced.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:41 AM
Dec 2016

I am not prone to jumping to quick conclusions. I found the referring article has an uncropped pic that shows more detail


It is very primitive. I see 2 large humanoid figures; one perhaps female and the other male. There's very little difference between them. The 3 figure is like them but smaller and is levitating above and between them. Off to the right is a dot about the size of the adult figure's head. Is that supposed to be a star?

There is a protrusion of stone above this pictograph. Above that ledge is something that looks like a sauce pan with a handle. It maybe a bison the Seeker article calls it a lion, hard to tell without seeing from a better perspective. To the lower right is something I cannot make out. It appears that the same stone flaking that decapitated the "woman" was at work here.

This may be an image of a mother, father and child or it may be something else altogether. There is noway to know without more information.
http://www.seeker.com/5000-year-old-nativity-scene-found-2161058490.html?ftag=MSF0951a18

Silver Gaia

(4,547 posts)
12. I agree. It is too old for us to ever be
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:49 AM
Dec 2016

able to say what it represents with any certainty. It appears to be a nativity (birth) scene, but it could have meant any number of things to the artist(s).

LW1977

(1,237 posts)
20. Agreed
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 09:38 AM
Dec 2016

I see no "3 wise men" in this image. It looks nothing more than a caveman "family portrait".


What exactly am I supposed to be looking for to see this as a definitive "nativity scene"?

Silver Gaia

(4,547 posts)
23. Well, while true that most Americans think of a
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 09:54 AM
Dec 2016

"nativity scene" only in relation to Christmas, it really just means "birth scene," so it could still be that, just not in a biblical sense. It could mean something else entirely, but most people will probably see it as depicting a birth or a family in some sense. (I think the writers of the article are deliberately trying to stir up controversy, however.)

Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #7)

Achilleaze

(15,543 posts)
8. Merry Horusmas ?
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:42 AM
Dec 2016

"... the Virgin Birth story was not new when the Messiah was born. Mythology is full of such stories. An Egyptian Virgin Birth story, told about 2,000 years before the Messiah, had many details identical with those found in the Gospel accounts. ...

"...In Egypt, long before the Christian era, and before any of its doctrine was conceived, the Egyptian people had several messengers of God, who were conceived through Immaculate Conception. Horus was known to all of ancient Egypt as having been born of the virgin Isis and his conception and birth was considered one of the three great mysteries or mystical doctrines of the Egyptian religion..."

Silver Gaia

(4,547 posts)
13. Agree. That would be the most obvious connection, given
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 08:52 AM
Dec 2016

that it was found in Egypt--but who knows? We can only make educated guesses.

TexasProgresive

(12,159 posts)
19. As far as we know- That's just it when it comes to prehistory we make lots of assumptions.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 09:30 AM
Dec 2016

I love the social sciences but they are not precise as say, a chemical analysis. As a young man I read, "The Digging of the Weans" by Robert Nathan. The youtube should be Theodore Bikel reading it. I have strict data caps so I did not watch. It is the story of Venusian archaeologists studying the frozen Earth. They happen to be working in the U.S. and have figured out English. Since it was called US the objective case of we they assumed that we are the Weans. Anyway it's lots of fun.

Silver Gaia

(4,547 posts)
21. Yep, that is the nature of the social sciences. When we
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 09:41 AM
Dec 2016

start trying to apply the same precision, as you say, as the hard sciences, that's when we mess things up, often horribly. I don't like to see too many assumptions made, and when we do, they should be clearly stated as assumption, conjecture, etc., and not as fact. We don't KNOW what we can't know.

Sounds like an interesting book. I will have to check it out. Thanks!

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
37. Just as many different groups have flood myths too. Christianity is not original
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:50 AM
Dec 2016

"Jesus" wasn't born in December but Christians incorporated local celebrations and mixed them into their myth. Easter originally was about spring rebirth and fertility before they threw his resurrection myth into the local's celebration.

Wounded Bear

(58,737 posts)
66. I always figured that the proliferation of the flood myths...
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 12:47 PM
Dec 2016

is at least in part because civilizations tended to grow in river valleys, where the water is, and where flooding is pretty common: Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Indus, the Chinese great rivers.

Well that, and the fact that societies were not as insular as we tend to think. Stories got traded like goods did. Good stories are likely to travel well.

Wounded Bear

(58,737 posts)
47. Weren't most of the Greek heroes also of "virgin birth"...
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 11:52 AM
Dec 2016

they supposedly thought that the Gods walked among them, and were running around impregnating women all the time.

I know Perseus was supposedly the son of Zeus and a mortal woman.

It's a pretty common theme around the Eastern Mediterranean IIRC.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
67. Dear Bear,
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 10:18 PM
Dec 2016

I think you may be overdue for a talk with one of your parents.

In Christian theology, the Holy Spirit has no physical form and no reproductive organs. Mary remains a virgin both before and after the conception of Jesus. His conception is regarded as miraculous, Mary's continuing virginity being one aspect of the miracle.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
60. GA Wells is the most well respected scholar on Jesus
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 07:37 AM
Dec 2016

Mythology and in recent years has come to believe that Jesus was a real preacher. He, like many Jesus mythology experts, believe in a Q document.

I know of no respected scholar who buys into the Jesus is Horace story. Recent findings, the tablet with Pilots inscription and Ciaphias ossuaury are hard physical evidence.

Whether Jesus was the son of God is debatable, but almost all mainstream researchers believe a man preached around the Sea of Galilee and was crucified by the Romans.

Wounded Bear

(58,737 posts)
64. Maybe so...
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 12:01 PM
Dec 2016

but any society under foreign occupation is likely to have preachers wandering around calling for a "new kingdom."

IMHO, it is likely that the Jesus myth is an amalgam of several, if not many local preacher activists at the time, including John the Baptist.

The linkages to earlier myths from Mesopotamia, Egypt and Greece, all of whom at one time or another invaded and occupied the region are pretty solid in my mind.

Drahthaardogs

(6,843 posts)
65. Doubt it
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 12:27 PM
Dec 2016

There was no amalgamation needed. The Christ was a fulfillment of the prophets, especially Isiah. What the Christ was supposed to be was very well laid out in the Tora.

As for the myth thing, most of that is kind of a stretch. The leading experts just don't agree with the myth theory.

Silver Gaia

(4,547 posts)
16. There are very few sacred stories that do not contain
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 09:03 AM
Dec 2016

traces of earlier myths, whether from the same culture or another nearby. This does not make them lesser or somehow "unholy," though. Regardless, any sacred story (myth) is true to those who believe it. I understand where you're coming from, but unless it is from an isolated culture, there are very few sacred stories that are wholly original. But to the devout, their story is still true.

Donkees

(31,478 posts)
15. "The cave was universally identified with the womb of Mother Earth..."
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 09:00 AM
Dec 2016

Barbara Walker: "The cave was universally identified with the womb of Mother Earth, the logical place for symbolic birth and regeneration" (Barbara Walker, The Women's Encyclopedia Of Myths And Secrets, 1983.

Donkees

(31,478 posts)
24. My response is in context to the conversation concerning 'nativity scene'...
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 09:57 AM
Dec 2016

...headless animals representing fertility symbols, death/rebirth initiation ceremonies, etc.

Silver Gaia

(4,547 posts)
26. Understood.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:05 AM
Dec 2016

The cave itself may or may not have any symbolic sigficance. It may have just been a matter of convenience for the artist. Or it could have meant any number of things to the artist: a place of home and hearth, an entrance to the underworld, or a place of emergence from the womb, as you point out. We will never know for sure, though, which was my point.

Donkees

(31,478 posts)
29. Discussing this research near the time of the winter solstice, brings to mind the myths of sun-god
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:20 AM
Dec 2016

saviors born in caves, including the cave in the story of Jesus' birth, and the 'cave' of his entombment. It seems almost every year about this time, we have a review of sun-god myths and womb to tomb circle of life symbolism.

Mike Nelson

(9,973 posts)
25. This is not a Nativity scene...
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:03 AM
Dec 2016

...it's the earliest known depiction of two people playing Backgammon... or maybe Badminton...



edhopper

(33,639 posts)
31. I see man, woman and child
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:35 AM
Dec 2016

but those are kinda universal.
The christian nativity is a specific myth.
Seems like a reach.

MineralMan

(146,338 posts)
32. Seems like a reach?
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:42 AM
Dec 2016

Try this:

A supernatural deity impregnates a young woman, who later gives birth to a man/god who is later executed by the government, but rises up from the dead three days later to save the world and make everyone immortal who believes the story.

Now, there's a reach...it seems to me. But, hey, that's just me, a worthless atheist, thinking...

edhopper

(33,639 posts)
34. I think you misunderstood my post
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:46 AM
Dec 2016

I did call the Jesus nativity a myth. It is a specific story (though probably borrowing from other myths)

The reach is calling the depiction of a man, woman and child from 5000 years ago having anything to do with the Jesus myth.

Why bother to mention the nativity, except for sensationalism?

MineralMan

(146,338 posts)
39. OK. Well, people are always looking for some
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:57 AM
Dec 2016

sort of significance in things, I guess. Look to me like some folks drew some pictures on the wall of the place they lived to me. I don't really care. None of it makes any logical sense, really.

edhopper

(33,639 posts)
41. Cave paintings
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 11:07 AM
Dec 2016

had significance to those who made and looked at them. they help us understand the cultures of those primitive people. But they shouldn't be looked at for what they actually were, not some ridiculous connection they did not have.

edhopper

(33,639 posts)
43. There is no evidence
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 11:29 AM
Dec 2016

that they used that type of perspective in cave paintings.

man woman and child would be the more logical explanation.

But hey, maybe they found an artistic first.

 

pintobean

(18,101 posts)
46. It was a tongue in cheek question
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 11:44 AM
Dec 2016

but it still makes more sense than calling it a nativity scene.

ileus

(15,396 posts)
36. Maybe next year we won't have to suffer thru X-mas.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:49 AM
Dec 2016

Finally we have the visual proof that Christianity is a big load of bunk.

calendargirl

(191 posts)
40. So is your attitude.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 10:58 AM
Dec 2016

Millions of "Xtian" people feeling love and enjoying family and in the spirit of charity and giving...poor you for having to suffer through it!
DU can be seriously insulting this time of year. I don't see the slams on religious believers here during Ramadan.

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
48. That's no child...
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 11:56 AM
Dec 2016

...it's clearly an alien giving knowledge to our ancestors. The "star" is its home world...duh...

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
49. The word "nativity" doesn't necessarily refer to the birth of Christ.
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 12:06 PM
Dec 2016

By definition, it just refers to birth. Thus, they're interpreting this to possibly be an early depiction of a birth.

Parenthetically, I don't see what they're referring to as a "star in the east", not that it really matters, I suppose.

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
51. Acoss from the left hand of the man on my right. Although it is not a star on high in the sky
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 12:24 PM
Dec 2016

I think that is it in the horizon

WhiteTara

(29,728 posts)
54. Most of the Christian stories were taken
Sat Dec 24, 2016, 01:40 PM
Dec 2016

from older cultures...the immaculate conception is the story of Isis and Horus, Christmas day is the Pagan Return of the Sun andnow we find the nativity from Neolithic times. It makes one wonder how much of the bible is true.

yortsed snacilbuper

(7,939 posts)
56. I figured out what it means,
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 02:37 AM
Dec 2016

It's Adam and Eve, the middle figure is a devil/snake and the spot up on the right is an apple that he /her/it is offering to Eve, the animals are being collected by Adam and Eve for Noah's Ark.

Problem solved to everybody's satisfaction.

your welcome
Al

 

Douglas Kawasaki

(51 posts)
62. What I see is a man, a woman and a child
Sun Dec 25, 2016, 09:50 AM
Dec 2016

At first by reading the clickbait I thought this would resemble the setting of the Christmas nativity.

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