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Mon Dec 26, 2016, 10:40 PM

Why I am taking a break from DU.

I have posted parts of this post elsewhere. I've now decided to put it all together in one place. Apologies to those who have seen it elsewhere.

One reason I joined DU is that it's a progressive site. The word "progressive" means many things to me. One thing it means, to me, is kindness. Not weakness, but kindness; trying to see the best in people.

This includes the way I see most people who voted for Trump. There are certainly evil people who voted for Trump. I have no sympathy for those people.

But there are also many stupid people who voted for Trump. It is simply wrong, morally, to treat all these stupid people as if they were evil.

As an example, good friend of mine went from working for Hillary in the 2008 primaries to voting for Trump in 2016. Why the change? He lost his job. I do not consider my friend evil. But perhaps he's stupid for falling for Trump's empty slogans.

Unfortunately, post after post here on DU treats all Trump voters as evil beings. No exceptions. They are all very horrible people who deserve to have very horrible things happen to them.

As a progressive, this pains me. Stupid does not equal evil in my book. It just doesn't. I would hope to help educate these stupid people. I do not wish that bad things would happen to them.

But as of now I seem to be in the minority here. So I think I need to take a little break. Perhaps when things settle down a bit, I'll be back.

Yes, I know that with less than 1000 posts, I'm not a key player here. I won't be missed. And yes, I won't let the door hit me on the way out.

Best wishes to you all. Stay strong, and stay vigilant. Going forward, DU will be part of what (hopefully) puts the brakes on Trump.

91 replies, 11037 views

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Arrow 91 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why I am taking a break from DU. (Original post)
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 OP
still_one Dec 2016 #1
CountAllVotes Dec 2016 #4
potone Dec 2016 #2
JudyM Dec 2016 #7
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #11
True Dough Dec 2016 #19
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #38
JudyM Dec 2016 #67
spin Dec 2016 #55
Maru Kitteh Dec 2016 #3
CountAllVotes Dec 2016 #5
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #6
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #10
kairos12 Dec 2016 #14
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #20
Skittles Dec 2016 #29
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #31
Skittles Dec 2016 #53
herding cats Dec 2016 #58
bdamomma Dec 2016 #72
Skittles Dec 2016 #81
Calculating Dec 2016 #74
OnionPatch Dec 2016 #75
Skittles Dec 2016 #82
OnionPatch Dec 2016 #87
Skittles Dec 2016 #91
HopeAgain Dec 2016 #78
SammyWinstonJack Dec 2016 #84
lunasun Dec 2016 #24
usedtobedemgurl Dec 2016 #83
Different Drummer Dec 2016 #89
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2016 #8
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #12
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #15
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2016 #22
Paladin Dec 2016 #64
SammyWinstonJack Dec 2016 #86
mythology Dec 2016 #9
EffieBlack Dec 2016 #13
JI7 Dec 2016 #16
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #21
Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2016 #23
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #27
lunasun Dec 2016 #30
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #34
HassleCat Dec 2016 #17
UTUSN Dec 2016 #18
Iggo Dec 2016 #25
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #28
Iggo Dec 2016 #79
RiverStone Dec 2016 #26
hibbing Dec 2016 #32
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #36
kentuck Dec 2016 #39
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #42
lapucelle Dec 2016 #76
Different Drummer Dec 2016 #90
Donkees Dec 2016 #59
Cryptoad Dec 2016 #33
billh58 Dec 2016 #35
hay rick Dec 2016 #37
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #40
BlueStater Dec 2016 #41
certainot Dec 2016 #43
tblue37 Dec 2016 #44
Wiseman32218 Dec 2016 #45
oasis Dec 2016 #46
elmac Dec 2016 #47
world wide wally Dec 2016 #48
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #49
world wide wally Dec 2016 #52
Coventina Dec 2016 #50
Shemp Howard Dec 2016 #54
Coventina Dec 2016 #56
MFM008 Dec 2016 #51
herding cats Dec 2016 #57
FarCenter Dec 2016 #60
cwydro Dec 2016 #61
FarCenter Dec 2016 #62
cwydro Dec 2016 #71
aidbo Dec 2016 #63
Paladin Dec 2016 #65
taught_me_patience Dec 2016 #66
DemocratSinceBirth Dec 2016 #68
moda253 Dec 2016 #69
mercuryblues Dec 2016 #70
Calculating Dec 2016 #73
Generator Dec 2016 #77
Tarheel_Dem Dec 2016 #80
Squinch Dec 2016 #85
liquid diamond Dec 2016 #88

Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 10:48 PM

1. The only thing I know is that those who voted for trump were well aware of his racist and sexist

views

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Response to still_one (Reply #1)


Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 10:50 PM

2. There are a lot of people here...

who haven't yet come to terms with Hillary's loss, and are angry about it. I agree with you that not all Trump voters are evil; I don't even think that all of them are stupid. Many of them are simply ignorant, and many, such as your friend, voted out of anger and frustration at the seeming indifference of the leadership of both political parties to the struggles and anxieties of most people in this country. So a break is probably a good idea, but don't go away permanently. We need voices like yours, or this site will just become a single-minded echo zone.

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Response to potone (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:16 PM

7. +1. And I'd offer that it goes further to the fault of the media not even having intelligent policy

discussion. A lot of those rust belt workers simply don't have a lot of free time to spend reading more than a handful of articles beyond the headlines.

I don't think they're necessarily racist and sexist (as a smaller percentage of his base clearly is), those issues are simply not at the top of their survival-oriented concerns. They might even feel that there's excessive snowflakeness about political correctness because they themselves are not ill-intentioned toward those demographics. The point is that jobs are important, and trump gave the impression that he was going to create jobs, period. All reports suggest that most of these people only half-listened to the racist, sexist stuff he said because they see him as a lot of self-puffing hot air, so they didn't personally appreciate the gravity of the risk he poses, because they think he's a clown who's a good businessman.

His voters were a lot more heterogeneous than we give them credit for being.

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Response to JudyM (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:25 PM

11. Very well said!

"All reports suggest that most of these people only half-listened to the racist, sexist stuff he said..."

That's a key point. I wish I would have included it in my original post! Many people who voted for Trump heard from him only what they wanted to hear. That does not make them evil. It just makes them stupid...which was my central point all along.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:41 PM

19. Enjoy your break, Shemp

but don't stay away too long. I agree with your views and those expressed by JudyM and Potone. There are too few of us who refuse to vilify all Trump supporters. Any one of them who expresses bigotry or misogyny is worthy of condemnation, but we need to give a second chance to the frustrated ones who will inevitably see the error of their ways as Drumpf and his administration makes one horrible decision after another. They'll be back. They will.

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Response to True Dough (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:52 AM

38. Thank you for the kind words. (nt)

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 10:12 AM

67. It doesn't necessarily make them stupid; aversion to both candidates lowered the prioritization

of digging in (particularly in the face of a struggling lifestyle). The media wasn't serving up meaningful differentiation on issues! So it was a little of who do you like/dislike more, and a little of what's in it for me?

IMO this is why we lost those states, as well, and had a better chance there with Sanders, who was forcing more attention onto issues, and specifically the bread and butter issues that matter to those voters. He had consistently high trust ratings, as well... but water under the bridge! Just my view that deeming them racist and/or stupid seems reductivist to me.

I hope you come back soon!

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Response to potone (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 02:45 AM

55. I largely agree with your post. ...

I don't consider people who hold different political views from mine to be either evil or stupid.

A person's political views are often based on the political views of their parents and their own life experiences.

When I talk politics with others I often avoid arguing with them as that is futile but I do my best to understand why they feel the way they do. For example if I am talking to a gun owner who has a significant amount of money invested in his gun collection and owns semiautomatic firearms, I can understand his reluctance to vote for a candidate who wants to see a new Federal Assault Weapons Ban enacted. If I am talking to a fundamentalist Christian who believes the Bible is the liberal word of God then I can understand why he votes for people who he see as conservative Christians. When I am talking to a conservative who believes in a strict interpretation of the Constitution then I can see why he votes for a candidate who promises to nominate only conservative justices for the Supreme Court. When I talk to a liberal individual who favors equality for all races and sexual orientations then I understand why he votes for progressive candidates. If I talk to a person who is concerned about global warming I realize that it's unlikely that he will vote for most Republicans.

However one thing I have commonly found while talking with others that there is a large amount of frustration with those we elect and send to Washington DC to represent us. Nothing ever seems to change no matter who we elect and many feel that big money owns those we elect and in effect is running our nation for their profit.

The level of discontent if not anger has risen to the level that helps to explain why both Betnie and Trump did so well. Far too many people are sick and tired of our political establishment and both major parties.

If our two parties wish to survive much longer it might be wise for both to start figuring out issues they can work together on which would help improve life for all in our nation. Otherwise we may find the "Kick all the bums out" movement finally gathering steam and many long term politicians out of a job. Unfortunately that would mean our nation would lose a lot of valuable experience at the highest levels of government.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 10:55 PM

3. I am beyond weary of excusing the racism & misogyny of Trump voters as "they don't know any better"

They DO. Some of them may be stupid, but they are perfectly aware of their bigotry and they choose to remain as they are. I know these people. They're in my family. They went to my high school. They get no quarter from me.

I respect your decision to take a break from DU but immorality to me is excusing the behavior of bigots, racists and misogynists. I hope we never "settle down" and normalize the behavior of those people. Ever.





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Response to Maru Kitteh (Reply #3)


Response to Maru Kitteh (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:02 PM

6. That is a classic straw man argument.

I never said that we should "settle down and normalize the behavior of those people." I said that we should treat the majority of them as stupid, and not as evil.

And I said we should try to educate those people. I said nothing about "settling down" and accepting their views.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:24 PM

10. They may not be stupid or evil

 

But they were fully aware of Trump's racism and sexism, etc., and still chose to vote for him. They knew they were aligning themselves with the KKK, Aryan Nation and Nazis, yet they felt that whatever interest they felt that Trump advanced outweighed MY interests and those of millions of minorities who will be damaged by a Trump presidency.

They said, "Yes, I know he's a racist, misogynist, anti-Muslim demagogue, but I don't care . . ."

It will be a long while before I manage to muster up any sympathy whatsoever for those people. To paraphrase Vito Corleone, "this, I cannot forgive."

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:32 PM

14. +1000

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:44 PM

20. I must disagree.

"But they were fully aware of Trump's racism and sexism, etc., and still chose to vote for him."

I just don't agree with that. As I noted in an earlier post, many Trump voters only heard from Trump what they wanted to hear. It is somewhat like people who are in love. They only see good in their partner.

I've talked to many Trump supporters of my acquaintance. Yes, some voted for Trump for racist reasons. But many more went for Trump out of desperation. I'm from a rust-belt state, and many of my middle-aged friends are desperate. There are no good jobs, and they are afraid. So they followed the Pied Piper.

Those Trump voters are not evil, or racist. They just made a bad choice in 2016.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:14 AM

29. gawd, you'd have to be DUMBER THAN FUCK not to have noticed Trumps's racism and misogyny

FUCK these voters - they voted to put Trump - DONALD FUCKING TRUMP - a man with EXTREME MENTAL ISSUES - into the PRESIDENCY OF THE UNITED STATES

while you're taking time off, figure out HOW TO STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR THEM

THEY HAVE DISGRACED AMERICA

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Response to Skittles (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:21 AM

31. I'd normally like to have a conversation with you about this...

...as I often learn new things from others, and get new perspectives. But I'm in no mood to trade f-bombs, or be the target of f-bombs. I've learned early on that such conversations go nowhere. So I'll pass, if you please.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #31)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 02:06 AM

53. voting for a racist / misogynist is excusable

BUT DON'T BE DROPPING NO FUCKING F-BOMBS



*DONE HERE*

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Response to Skittles (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:01 AM

58. I was pulled into this thread because of your post...

I just want to say, I approve of your message!

They have disgraced America, and themselves!

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Response to Skittles (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:09 PM

72. they have also

disgraced the office of the President, the country and our standing in the world. There is enough blame to go around, but we have to MOVE on and get this man/child out of the way. He will cause a lot of trouble, and I don't even want to think about him messing around with North Korea bad enough Putin is laughing all the way to the bank.

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Response to bdamomma (Reply #72)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 04:49 PM

81. THANK YOU

I am SICK of the Trump-voter apologists

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Response to Skittles (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:36 PM

74. Either America is the dumbest fucking country on Earth

Or a significant amount of them actually agreed with what Trump stands for. Our country has LITERALLY been disgraced forever with this election. This is WAY WORSE than GWB. Trump might possibly be insane, is filling our government with science deniers, and is one of the least presidential behaving presidents we've ever had.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #29)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:40 PM

75. Do you think Fox News reported racism?

Because if you watch only Fox News you may not have actually seen his racist remarks or they would have been explained away. If you were already a fairly non-political person you probably wouldn't be paying the kind of 24/7 attention that we do to politics so you probably didn't get much helpful information and maybe just took your husband's or parent's word for it that Trump was the best candidate.

Plenty of racists voted for Trump, yes. But I think there are reasons some people voted Trump other than blatant racism, stupidity and complacency being high on the list.

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Response to OnionPatch (Reply #75)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 04:51 PM

82. IF YOU WATCH ONLY FOX NEWS YOU ARE DUMBER THAN FUCK

INTENTIONALLY IGNORANT

and you either ARE RACIST or you ENDORSE RACISM - TAKE YOUR PICK



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Response to Skittles (Reply #82)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 05:51 PM

87. Yes, some people are dumb as fuck

and some are intellectually lazy but it doesn't necessarily mean they are racists. A cousin of mine is like that and she had never seen any of the videos of white supremacists cheering on Trump because when she gets on the internet, she's only there for the kittens and puppies. She didn't vote but if her father had still been alive she'd have gone to the polls and voted for whoever he told her to vote for.

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Response to OnionPatch (Reply #87)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 06:52 PM

91. pleading the 5th

DONE HERE

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:52 PM

78. So which will turn it around? Hate or education?

Can the Democratic party pick up the pieces and find a way to change attitudes without becoming one of them?

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #20)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 05:47 PM

84. No good jobs and they're afraid...well, I'm afraid of deep cuts to Social Security benefits and

Medicare vouchers and so should your middle age friends, be. Why did they think a billionaire business man would be their salvation. LOL.

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:56 PM

24. It should never be normalized or lightly excused. Or next will be a hate criminal was stupid and

just frustrated about a job so let the person back on the streets. Extreme example ? Yes but so is who these voters put in power and if they choose to willing block out trump's bigotry (or their own) to vote for trump ,that is no excuse.
The bad economy was used against Jews in Nazi Germany . Plenty Germans accepted the bigotry and were lulled by work projects like the Autobahn

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Response to Maru Kitteh (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 05:15 PM

83. I have to totally agree with the post and add one thing....

They knew who they were voting for and decided to vote for what they perceived to be their own self interests. They not only mistakenly thought they were voting for themselves, but they knew they were voting against so many of our citizens including people of color, women, Muslims, etc....Without a doubt, some of the people they voted against were in their family but they did not care.

And now I see articles where they did not believe Trump when he said he would get rid of Obamacare and these folks are scared because now it seems they screwed themselves over despite the fact that they always touted they loved Trump because he says what he means and he means what he says.

I have Obamacare and am female. I did not have health insurance until Obamacare came along. I have a close friend who makes maybe $75/month at flea market stalls and is living off the last bit of money from an inheritance. He swears to me he put in the proper numbers and that Obamacare costs too much. Yeah, right. I know his financial situation and I know he would be getting medicare and that it is free. He is a staunch Republican and posted on FB that he was not voting. I did not try to change his mind because I know who he is stupid enough to vote for.

These people voted against me on two counts. They wanted my insurance gone (but not theirs) and I am female and they have created a very hostile environment for my sex.

Some people will die without Obamacare and they will be the lucky ones. All of the climate scientists claim that we are at or very near the tipping point. Not just being stupid but voting out of spite, to show those liberal, people voted to possibly end our planet. More species will go extinct. Reindeer are dying in droves because of climate change. Our planet is dying and you cannot fix the type of stupid who vote for the extinction of every living creature on this planet.

They listen to talk radio and they will not listen to a single thing you have to say because they are brain washed. There is no talking to them and they believe we are stupid for listening to what are actually the facts. They believe they have a strong hold on every fact out there and that we are the ones who cannot be reasoned with. They believe we are stupid and they laugh at us for trying to save the planet and them along with it.

The ballot should have read "Hillary Clinton" or "End of Planet Earth" because that is exactly what was at stake. There are predictions out there that within our foreseeable future earth will have ended. The titanic is sinking and their band plays on.

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Response to usedtobedemgurl (Reply #83)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 06:19 PM

89. ...

They listen to talk radio and they will not listen to a single thing you have to say because they are brain washed. There is no talking to them and they believe we are stupid for listening to what are actually the facts. They believe they have a strong hold on every fact out there and that we are the ones who cannot be reasoned with. They believe we are stupid and they laugh at us for trying to save the planet and them along with it.


This.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:23 PM

8. Funny, cuz I'm thinking of taking a break due to the nonsensical idea being pushed here

by so many that we need to "listen to" the Trump voters and change our message to appeal to them.

No, we don't. I already have listened to them. I know what they think. And so do most DUers. I loved my grandparents, but I found it very difficult from an early age to respect them. They were closed-minded, uneducated, fundamentalist, superstitious, homophobic, bigoted, racist, and in my grandfather's case a bully. They had four children. My mom was the only one to truly reject that "heritage." The other three children, their spouses, and their children are all RWers.

The only way the Democratic party would have won any of their votes would have been to indulge the prejudices and ignorance of these people. And if the Democratic party had done that, they would have lost my mom and dad, most of my siblings, my husband and millions and millions of progressive Democrats.

I don't believe many DUers actually believe every single Trump voter is evil. What we do believe is that they have elevated to the highest office in the land, and world, a crass, homophobic, misogynistic, lying, cheating, intemperate, business-bankrupting, ill-prepared, unstatesmanlike, boor, and that they must take responsibility for that vote.

There is no question that a lot of suffering and misery will befall countless Americans. A wish for those responsible for electing such an ill-suited, war-mongering, benefits-slashing cretin to shoulder a large share of that guaranteed suffering and misery does not seem at all unfair or unreasonable to me.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:25 PM

12. THIS

 

So eloquent and perfectly stated. Thanks.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:33 PM

15. I sort of agree with you.

We do not need to listen to Trump voters, or in any way try to "learn" from them.

But as I have said before, we also need to understand that most Trump voters are misguided (or just plain stupid). Not evil. That subgroup of Trump voters can be turned around. They need to be educated, not vilified.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:53 PM

22. Personally, I'm afraid the last thing most Trump voters want to be is educated.

Trump's election reflects a virulent anti-intellectualism that I fear is on the rise and can only lead to disaster. Look at how so many Rs complained about Obama being like a professor. Oh, god forbid the president of the United States should sound intelligent.

Of course, on the other hand, they also said the Constitutional scholar we elected was stupid and should "read the Constitution." So, logical thinking skills, not their strongest point. They are easily manipulated by appeals to their basest instincts such as tribalism and emotionalism. Facts, not so much.

My only hope, and this is perhaps in agreement with you, that there were a lot voters without whom Trump would have lost, who voted for him simply because they fell for the piles of misinformation fed to them. And this I hope only because it means that maybe, just maybe, not all of them are too far gone to ever "learn" anything that is not confirmed for them by the RW propaganda machine.

But, in many cases, for instance in the case of my RW relatives, it is not even that they have been misinformed. It is some kind of a primitive mind set that causes them to want to believe the lies the RW has been telling them. I'm not sure that can be changed.

What I do know is that unless the Democratic party and supporting organizations take the problem of the RW propaganda machine far more seriously and be willing to put massive resources into fighting back with a similar, but hopefully less sensationalist, dishonest apparatus, any chance of an objective reality agreed upon by factual proof, is gone forever. And then, the RW can't lose.

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 09:35 AM

64. +1,000,000. Thank you. (nt)

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 05:50 PM

86. +1000000!

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:23 PM

9. It's human nature to other those who don't belong to our group

 

And it's human nature to shift blame. If we pretend that every Trump voter is an open racist or sexist, we don't have to look at what we as Democrats can do better.

Obviously we shouldn't give in to the worst angels of our nature, but it's hard. The internet plays into that as well.

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Response to mythology (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:29 PM

13. We don't have to assume every Trump voter is an open racist or sexist. But they joined forces with

 

open racists and sexists to make a fellow open racist and sexist President of the United States.

Pointing that out does not give in to the worst angels of our nature. It's just stating a fact. And I don't want my party to gloss over it or go out of its way to try to make nice with people who so willingly put my people and many others in direct danger.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:36 PM

16. Since you are willing to excuse people who voted for a Bigot. maybe you should do the same for those

who are upset over people who voted for the bigot ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:50 PM

21. No argument from me there.

I can understand why many people voted for Trump out of desperation. And as I noted previously, I classify those people as stupid, not evil.

But yes, I can certainly understand why progressives would be upset at those Trump voters. If a well-intentioned person should drive a bus off of a cliff, it would only be reasonable for people to be upset at that bus driver.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:55 PM

23. IIRC, according to the stats, most who voted for Trump were well off financially.

I'm not sure how much we can excuse due to supposed "desperation".

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Response to Dark n Stormy Knight (Reply #23)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:06 AM

27. That's a good point.

Permit me to qualify my remarks. The "desperate" Trump voters of my acquaintance are not well off financially. They are, like me, working-class Democrats. And their fathers and grandfathers were working-class FDR and JFK Democrats.

But my acquaintances went for Trump because they were afraid. They bought into Trump's boastful and empty promises.

We will never be able to reach the rich Trump voters. No reason to even try. But we can reach those working-class Trump voters! Because they are NOT evil, as so many posts here seem to imply. They are just confused. That's all I'm trying to say here.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #21)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:19 AM

30. Plenty of well intentioned Germans took thier country down . It's only reasonable to not want

to accept that for my own country
and be upset at the voters who seek the same bigoted solutions for their own economic reasons (even though stats say trump voters averaged higher incomes overall) and do not care what that means for fellow targeted citizens . If the final words for them is I want my money and care none if it screws or kills others then they are correctly voting republican

The bad economy was used against Jews in Nazi Germany . Plenty Germans accepted the bigotry and were lulled by work projects like the Autobahn.

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Response to lunasun (Reply #30)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:30 AM

34. True.

The German experience of the 1930s is a lesson we must never forget. But we must be careful not to apply it where it does not fit.

You are right to be on alert. I certainly can see Trump, if he is not checked, drifting into fascism. But I'd also hate to see many voters who made a mistake in 2016 being lost to us forever, just because we demonized them unfairly.

Perhaps there is merit in both our positions.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:37 PM

17. You may not be in the minority.

 

Yes, I know those posts seem hateful, but they come from a relatively small group of people. And this is a time when we tend to vent. Some supporters were emotionally invested in Hillary, not just politically invested, and her defeat was almost like a death in the family. Part of the grieving seems to be lashing out. I don't think they really mean much of what they say. God, I hope not. It should taper off pretty soon.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2016, 11:41 PM

18. Can't "puts the brakes on (DRUMPF)" by loving & being kind to him and his.

That's the Col. SANDERS recipe over at the poultry farm.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:01 AM

25. Stupid doesn't equal evil, but stupid does equal stupid.

Fuck stupid.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #25)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:10 AM

28. Fix stupid.

Don't f*ck stupid. Fix stupid.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #28)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:54 PM

79. You.

I'm done fucking with those fuckheads.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:04 AM

26. While I appreciate your sentiments, when we start losing our civil liberties...

On 1/20/17, it's gonna take an unapologetic resistance.

We have never seen a fascist in power in America.

His followers are also propagating the lies and hate. While insults to their face won't change them, here on DU - we remind ourselves often that we will never normalize what has happened. That includes, remembering that a vote for tRrump, is a vote for racism and misogyny.

I have no problem with how DU characterizes his followers. The fight to save our democracy is on!

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:25 AM

32. Hmm

Calling people stupid = kindness = being progressive?

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Response to hibbing (Reply #32)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:42 AM

36. LOL, odd isn't it?

But yes, I think in this matter calling most Trump voters stupid instead of evil is a form of kindness, and so it's a progressive trait.

And it's also probably the most sensible thing to do. A person branded as evil is shunned. But a person thought of as stupid is not shunned. That person can be the target of education. For the sake of the next election, I think it's worth the effort.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #36)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:00 AM

39. Who is Shemp Howard?

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Response to kentuck (Reply #39)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:03 AM

42. My favorite comedian of all time, of course.(nt)

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Response to kentuck (Reply #39)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:46 PM

76. The fourth stooge from The Three Stooges.

I think he was a replacement stooge when one of them couldn't perform.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #76)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 06:34 PM

90. Correct.

The original Three Stooges were Moe Howard, Curly Howard and Larry Fine. When Curly had to stop performing due to health problems, Shemp stepped in for him.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #36)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:56 AM

59. Equanimity is a progressive trait, being able to shift focus and observe the various facets of a

situation, as opposed to using emotional reasoning treating feelings as facts. When emotions run high, complex reasoning gets high-jacked into ego-wars and polarized thinking. Just as there are strategies for dealing with emotional reasoning, there are ways to approach some of these Trump voters and reach them.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:27 AM

33. GOP is the ,,,,

largest organized group of Bigots and Hate Mongers in the USA.... Period! ,,, and if u vote for them u have become one! ,,,,,,

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:33 AM

35. Buh bye...

Thanks for playing.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:52 AM

37. Stupid is as stupid does.

Many of the Trump voters are not really stupid- they are inattentive and uncritical. Failing to pay attention to available information, however, does not exonerate them from responsibility for their actions- especially when the consequences of their foolishness affects other people. Being "nice" by avoiding confrontation makes us complicit. Being nice to people is my default behavior but it isn't always appropriate. I have no sympathy for Trump voters who allowed themselves to be misled. They failed themselves, their families, and their country. They don't get a participation trophy.

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Response to hay rick (Reply #37)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:01 AM

40. I agree with you (surprise).

I used "stupid" as a catch-all word to describe most Trump voters. But your description of them - "inattentive and uncritical" - is much better.

And I also agree that we should neither excuse them nor be nice to them. My point is that we should not treat them as monsters. Because most of them are not monsters. They simply heard from Trump what they wanted to hear, and ignored the rest.

Stupid, inattentive, and uncritical. And also redeemable. Not monsters.




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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:02 AM

41. Maybe not evil.

But they went to a polling booth and cast a ballot for a misogynistic self-admitted sexual predator who mocked a disabled man. That's not a minor character flaw that I can just overlook. They can make all the excuses in the world for why they did it and it's all completely irrelevant to me. Nothing can possibly justify voting for that colossal fuckbag to be POTUS. Nothing.

And stupid people can be just as dangerous as willfully evil people. A lot of people are going to suffer, including themselves of course, thanks to their idiocy. I could tell just from listening to Trump for five minutes that he wasn't qualified to lead a goddamn boy scout troop, let alone the country yet, for some unfathomable reason, they could never see it. I have no sympathy for them.


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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:07 AM

43. unfortunately liberals don't realize 'stupid' means talk radio-educated

and they analyze everything in a rw radio vacuum

for eg - 'lost his job' is about who to blame, which cannot be blamed on democrats unless you serve koch think tanks and have a direct line to 1200 radio stations blasting 40 states with 80 senators and 30 years of unchallenged bullshit

which liberals continue to ignore, in the biggest political mistake in history

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:07 AM

44. Ignorant and uninformed is not the same thing as stupid.

The wattage may very well be there, but if people, for whatever reason, fail to inform themselves, then those people are foolish, but not necessarily stupid.

Furthermore, propaganda works, and tribalism is part of humans' instinctive package. Both of these factors can deform the perception even of well-meaning people, and both of these factors are very much involved in the way people vote--and in this election perhaps more even than usual.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:08 AM

45. I don't see people that voted for trump as evil just

extremely mis-informed by the bought and paid for MSM and becoming mind numbed robots that cannot understand the repercussions of their voting actions. You can leave but that does not help solve the problem we are facing. Best of luck on whatever path you choose.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:10 AM

46. There is a multitude of deplorables who take pride in their ignorance.

They are beyond redemption.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:25 AM

47. So the stupid people who voted for trump

 

blamed Hillary for all their problems? Wow, I guess they are stupid, evil stupid.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:26 AM

48. It's not my place to determine if they are evil or stupid... It's just my place to say "Fuck 'em"

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Response to world wide wally (Reply #48)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:45 AM

49. Imagine, if you will...

You are the leader of a people's revolution, and you are marching on the palace. Blocking your way is a unit of government soldiers. These soldiers all enlisted voluntarily. Some enlisted out of boredom, some liked the fancy uniforms, and some were seduced by the promises of the recruiter.

And yes, a few of them enlisted for vile reasons.

So what should you do? Should you try to reason with the soldiers, knowing that most of them enlisted out of confusion? Or should you just give them all a big F*ck You?

I'd argue that the revolution would have a much better chance of succeeding if you went the reasoning route.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #49)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:57 AM

52. They would most likely prefer to see me dead, so I say "Fuck 'en"

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:51 AM

50. Losing your job does not mean racism and sexism are ok.

Your good friend knew what he was doing.
There is no excuse.

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Response to Coventina (Reply #50)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 02:10 AM

54. A question for you.

"Losing your job does not mean racism and sexism are ok."

I agree completely. But that's not the point I was trying to make. I avoid evil people; I shun them. They give off bad vibes. I don't want them anywhere near me.

Now let's consider my friend who worked for Hillary in 2008 but voted for Trump in 2016. I do not excuse his choice. I just explain it.

Here's my question. Should I classify him as an evil being, and shun him? Should I wish that bad things happen to him? Or should I continue a dialog with him, and try to get him back to his Democrat roots?

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #54)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 02:47 AM

56. Your friend did something evil, but that doesn't automatically mean he is evil

I would need to get to know him personally before I could make such a determination.

If I was aware of a friend who voted for trump, I would definitely have a talk with him about it, with a conclusion that I really did not see a future for our relationship as long as he endorsed trump's values.

I would then encourage him to reach out to me after having time to think about what I had said.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 01:57 AM

51. They are to stupid to be evil

I don't like them, don't have to.
You don't have to like it and I don't expect you or anyone to.
I wish I could be more forgiving, but i have family members that will DIE
if they lose their health insurance.
A personal stake because of maggot voters disgruntled stupidity.
Racism, sexism , misogyny....whatever..
Death focuses you.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 02:53 AM

57. I've actually worked at the frontlines trying to flip many of these voters.

I'm not doing it anymore (at least for a few years, I have burnout) after this election cycle, but if you'd like to pick up my slot, it's yours for the taking. It's grueling, thankless work for the most part, and people will be vulgar and spew any personal insult they think might sting in your direction. Not all people, but the margin grew significantly this past election cycle.

I mostly work state and smaller level elections, but I do (did) work work the vital national elections in a handful of states where I was needed. The best advice I can give anyone looking to influence such people is, pound the pavement. You'll get nowhere with this demographic by being an internet warrior. They're too insulated in their peer groups and thinking. They reinforce themselves with those who mirror their thinking (look at their facebook, Twitter, etc., accounts, they seek out reinforcing voices, and facts do not matter), values and political views. You know that "bubble" people like to beat each other up with here? They patented it two decades ago. Yeah, I know they've been expanding the usage of "bubble" to cover people on the left, but I believe that's a symptom of social media (See above), and not even close to what those actually on the right have going on. They've had way more time to perfect the technique of full on propaganda, after all.

I agree with your getting off DU and getting out there working to change people's views. DU is a gentle, yet comforting port in the political storm, not a substitute for legwork and actual one-on-one personal interaction. It's discussion, not activism. They're not even similar! Your understanding that they're not evil, just really ignorant pack thinkers voting to harm themselves, and others, because they've not been educated enough yet is an interesting approach. I have no idea why the Democratic Party hasn't thought of this yet.

Be sure and update us on the elections you're working for so we can follow your success. I know I'm deeply interested in your personal experience.

I wish you the best of luck in your future political work.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 08:34 AM

60. Come back around mid-summer

 

Political discussions are worst when there is no political action going on. Wait until there is some activity in the new administration and congress.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 08:39 AM

61. I see countless posts from DUers about all the health problems they're having since the election.

Numerous posts about the need for psych meds.

Living with hate and vitriol in your heart hurts only you. I'm amazed at the level of hate on this board.

Your hate is not hurting the deplorables. Those that are even aware of your hate are laughing at you.

So I agree with you on most points Shemp, but we're in a minority here.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #61)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 09:12 AM

62. You are probably in the majority here

 

Any sufficiently large political discussion is always dominated by the 10% most vitriolic participants.

Just as society is dominated by the 10% most antisocial members.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #62)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 11:37 AM

71. Hmm, you may have a point there.

At any rate, I won't let hate for the other side ruin my life.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 09:32 AM

63. Even Hillary called for reaching out to the half of Trump supporters that aren't deplorable.

 

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 09:38 AM

65. Thank you for stepping aside.

Things are just going to get uglier before there's any improvement, because of who we're up against.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 09:48 AM

66. Honest question... are you a minority?

 

As a minority, I see things a very different way. The election of DT was a real punch to the gut to minorities and women because you realize just how many people around the country sympathize with a racist/misogynist.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 10:53 AM

68. I have glbtq, undocumented, and Muslim fiends.

People who voted for Trump put their lives in danger. Where is us the empathy for them?

Do the pluralities of Germans who gave Hitler and his Nationalist Socialist party his victories get a pass because some of them lost their jobs or were hurt by the hyperinflation that plagued Germany in the thirties?

If they don't get passes why should Trump voters? Because they were Germans.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 11:01 AM

69. Fuck that noise

 

Evil, stupid, lazy, vindictive... whatever it is that led them to vote for these people there is absolutely no excuse. None.

Pussy grabbing should have done it and don't tell me that they didn't know about that. Nasty woman and bad hombre should have told them that he doesn't have the temperament to be president.

There's no excuse. These people voted to ruin our country. They voted to completely fuck up my kid's world.

My children might now get to practice such fun exercises as hiding under their desks to protect themselves from nuclear blasts.

So no I don't think I will just agree that they are just uneducated voters and we shouldn't talk about them in nasty ways.

These people actively participated in destroying our country. Until they get out their pitchforks and torches and march on washington demanding that an about face occur immediately... fuck em. They did this.

In my eyes they are in lockstep with a fucking traitor.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 11:16 AM

70. What would you call

people who blatantly ignored the racism and misogyny that came out of Trump's own mouth? Who claim they voted for Trump because he is a business man, yet ignored all of his bankruptcies, sham college, not paying people who did work for him and his "charity" that he used to buy himself stuff?
Then to add the cherry on top, he promised to get rid of the ACA, with no plan on just what could be done to ease the pain and suffering of those who find themselves without a chance of getting insurance, mid chemo treatment?

Who inspired racial animosity to the point that they feel free to assault anyone who is a minority.

Just what would you call a voter who ignored his rallying cry to "lock her up" that escalated to kill her?

No. they don't get a fucking pass. They knew this and still voted for a man who is volatile and unstable. Because "I lost my job" I am going to vote for the man who says he will bring jobs back. Despite the very fucking fact that every single one of the trump family's factories are all over seas.

You seem to want to ignore the fact that people all over the world will DIE because of trump's policy proposals, while he and his buddies get even more tax dollars to hoard. While the single mother gets the blame for this country falling apart.

No fucking way will I let them rest comfortably. Every chance I get I will remind them how and why SSDI, SS, Medicare and Medicaid was ripped away from people in need. I will remind them that Clinton had very viable solutions to many of the problems in this country, yet they chose to wallow in hatred and believe lies.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 12:33 PM

73. Nope

They don't get a pass in the name of just being 'stupid'. Even the stupidest would have heard about Trumps racism/sexism/refusal to pay people who worked for him/etc. Either they agreed with him on that stuff, or they thought he was the lesser evil because they were so UNBELIEVABLY stupid that they believed all the conspiracy shit about Hillary being some kind of satanist.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 03:49 PM

77. I don't believe you

 

That your friend went from "working FOR Hillary" to voting for Trump that makes no sense. Sorry. Maybe liking Hillary but working for her to liking Trump is insane. He lost his job so billionaire racist asshole with no experience is gonna get him one. Insane or stupid? Which would you pick? Maybe your friend is insane. That makes more sense. I don't like being gas lighted. And so sorry your tender feelings were hurt by our dislike of Trump voters. PS most of us have NEVER nor would EVER vote for any Republicon. Not in 50 years. Also you could have discouraged your friend from voting for a monster. Did you even try?

Also I CAME BACK to DU after years because of this nightmare. Leaving now seems the worst decision for a progressive. DU has never been a place of super nice no swearing loving everyone because they are sorry folks. You missed the Bush years! LOL.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 04:27 PM

80. There seem to be a handful of you here, much like Susan Sarandon, who feel that a Trump admin...

won't be so bad. Personally, I don't a give two fucks about Donald Trump, his voters, and his useful idiots like Sarandon and her ilk. There seems to be a concerted effort among those sporting BS avatars to join forces with bigots, outright white supremacists, and sexual deviants who openly boast about assaulting women. You probably need that break you speak of, because I'm willing to bet that there's a huge chunk of DU who could care less about the willful idiots & outright racists who voted for Trump.

Bye Felicia.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 05:48 PM

85. LOL! Give it a little while. When you realize just how much death and destruction those "nice

people" have wrought, you'll be back.

And remember, when it was time for action, we acted in their interests. If only the same could have been said for themselves.

No one wanted bad things to happen to them. That was why we voted for Hillary. To prevent bad things from happening to them. But now, despite all of our best efforts and because of their own actions, bad things WILL happen to them. There is nothing wrong with hoping they learn the lessons from those bad things.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Tue Dec 27, 2016, 06:00 PM

88. Your friend had plenty

 

of proof from Trump about what kind of president he would be. A liar, misogynist, racist, and xenophobe. Being stupid is one thing. Willful ignorance is unforgivable. Fuck trump and anybody who voted for that piece of shit.

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