Gun Homicide Rates Up 31 Percent Since Stand Your Ground(FL)

[HAB911]

Florida’s gun deaths have gone up 31 percent since Stand Your Ground has been on the books. An international research team published the findings in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

http://health.wusf.usf.edu/post/gun-homicide-rates-31-percent-stand-your-ground

[Marengo]

1. Study "did not find enough evidence to definitively find the law caused the increase"

[HAB911]

2. It will only get better...........

I'm sure it's just a coinkydink

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1648072

[etherealtruth]

3. "...the STG law in Florida has resulted in far more harm occurring than it was argued it would"

“So this would suggest that, consistent with a lot of the concerns of public health advocates and various public safety groups, that the Stand Your Ground law in Florida has resulted in far more harm occurring than it was argued it would,” Humphreys said.

SYG's impact doesn't seem to be the question ...

“From this analysis alone we can’t tell why that this. Whether or not specifically people decided to arm themselves more, whether they decided to react more violently to perceived threats in public…But it’s quite startling how the increase occurs at exactly the same time as the Stand Your Ground law,” Humphreys said.

[Marengo]

9. Begs the question of "harm" to who?

[etherealtruth]

10. Human beings. Nothing to question.

[Marengo]

13. Human beings doing what?

[etherealtruth]

15. Apparently, human beings engaged in a multitude of activities of daily living

Some involved in criminally threatening activities .... but those were covered under self defense statutes prior to stand your ground and would have no appreciable impact on the statistics (since crime rates have not increased)

[Marengo]

16. Perhsps if that "some" had not included criminally threatening activities in their activities...

Of daily living, they might still be alive. Consequences, and all that.

[etherealtruth]

17. Thats an odd take ... What level of "criminality" entitles one to murder?

does one just have to suspect something? Is fear enough .... i know plenty of 'soft racists" that are terrified of black men .... would simply approaching someone and triggering great fear in them justify this....? If someone steals from you do you have the right to chase after them and then murder them? Does a person nopt in grave physical danger have the right to act as judge, jury, and executioner?

Now one North Miami man claims he stood his ground and shot an unarmed ex-lover — inside the women’s bathroom at Denny’s.

Sean Barnes insists his ex-girlfriend, Brooke Tuchinksy, appeared to “grab a shiny object” from her purse after he followed her into the restroom at the North Miami diner in August 2013.Barnes shot her once in the face. Tuchinsky had no weapon. Detectives found her purse closed.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article94885892.html#storylink=cpy

In April, 22-year-old Cordell Jude shot and killed Daniel Adkins Jr., a pedestrian who walked in front of Jude's car just as Jude was pulling up to the window of a Taco Bell drive-thru in Arizona. Jude claimed Adkins had waved his arms in the air, wielding what Judge thought was a metal pipe—it was actually a dog leash. Jude shot the 29-year-old Adkins, who was mentally disabled, once in the chest. As of May, an arrest had not been made in the April 3 shooting. Arizona passed a Stand Your Ground law in 2010.

In January, a judge in Miami tossed out a second-degree murder charge against Greyston Garcia after he chased a suspected burglar for more than a block and stabbed him to death. The judge decided the stabbing was justified because the burglar had swung a bag of stolen car radios at Garcia—an object that a medical examiner at a hearing testified could cause "serious harm or death." The judge found Garcia was "well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property."

In November 2007, a Houston-area man pulled out a shotgun and killed two men whom he suspected of burglarizing his neighbor's home. Joe Horn, a 61-year-old retiree, called 911 and urged the operator, "Catch these guys, will you? Cause, I ain't going to let them go." Despite being warned to remain inside his home, Horn stated he would shoot, telling the operator, "I have a right to protect myself too, sir. The laws have been changed in this country since September the first, and you know it."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/06/top-five-stand-your-ground-cases-zimmerman

[Marengo]

20. Wouldn't that level be established by the statute in question? Murder is an unlawful killing.

Killings not justifiable under SYG have certainly occurred, but are the majority unlawful?

[etherealtruth]

26. ...or murder is the taking of a life with cause or justificatiion (a moral decision)

A lawful act is not necessarily a correct, moral, or ethical act. The NRA and ALEC have spread (sponsored and funded) this malignancy .... they have achieved what they set out to. As to your question r/t "unlawful" .... we have a history of good laws and egregious laws related to a plethora of situations ... lawfulness is not the measure of correctness, it is a measure of what has been passed by legistlatures 9in this case right wingers funded by the NRA and ALEC)

In February, Cyle Wayne Quadlin and Kriston Charles Belinte Chee got into a fight in the middle of a Walmart in Chandler, Arizona. After sensing that he was losing the fight, Quadlin pulled out his gun and shot and killed Chee, who was unarmed. After declaring he had feared for his life, Quadlin was not arrested.

Earlier this year, ThinkProgress broke down 26 children and teens in Florida alone who had been killed in "Stand Your Ground" cases. They included a mix of instances in which the shooters were ultimately convicted, found innocent, or let go with charges. That list includes the death of Jordan Davis, known as the "loud music trial" and the most high-profile "Stand Your Ground" case since the Martin case. In the case, Michael Dunn, the shooter, was acquitted of first-degree murder, but was convicted on lesser charges, after firing into a car with four teens following an argument over the loudness of the music in the car.
I am suprised to see someone here defendinglaws

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/05/the-many-cases-that-have-tested-the-limits-of-stand-your-ground-since-trayvon-martin/371770/

[Marengo]

56. You didn't answer my question. Where the majority found to be unlawful?

[etherealtruth]

57. Irrelevant ... laws need not be just or moral

Laws can and are designed and passed with an agenda. One can pass a law to justify many egregious things (slavery, internment ... examples of the most egregious).

[Marengo]

58. I did not ask your opinion as to the morality of the law in question. I asked if the majority...

Of SYG defenses were found to be lawful under statute as it's written.

[etherealtruth]

59. More than half were ... google SYG Florida and you will be provided a wealth of information

Once again it is irrelevant as "anything" can be codified to be designated legal

[LanternWaste]

52. It's important you keep moving your goalposts

It's important you keep moving your goalposts each time the answers you receive do not validate your bias. Good on ya for that, cupcake!

Agendas, and all that...

[Hoyt]

32. Oh, In Trayvon Martin's case, walking home. In Jordan Davis's case, riding in a car with friends.

You wanna go through some more?

Truthfully, I think most gun fanciers, including many who post often in the DU Gungeon, like SYG because it gives them an out if the mess up and shoot an innocent, unarmed person. Just a month or two before Trayvon Martin was murdered, the Gungeon had a thread about what to tell police if you shoot someone. As gunners are trained -- by NRA certified instructors -- say, "I was afraid for my life" when you shoot someone or brandish your weapon. Never tell the truth, "I saw this Black guy walking toward me and they scare me, so I stuck my hand on my gun and when he sneezed I shot him because I'm afraid of Black/Brown people and, actually, just don't like them -- duh, that's why I and all my armed friends carry a gun."

[Marengo]

33. Can you provide a cite to an example of an NRA certified instructor recommending to "never tell...

The truth"? I'd like to see a cite to an official source or publication. Also, are those actual quotes? If so, by who? Cites or links to those as well please.

[Hoyt]

35. The last sentence, I am quoting racist gun lovers. The NRA most certainly tells you to say you were

afraid for you life, and gunners have it memorized, just like police who say, "I thought he was reaching for a gun."

[Marengo]

37. Can you provides links to the sources of the quotes?

[Marengo]

42. Still waiting for the source (s) of the quote. You do understand what a quote is, correct?

[Marengo]

34. Are all cases of SYG homicide unjustified? A majority?

[Hoyt]

36. I think most cases could be handled without resorting to a gun. But, gunners have invested too

much in their weapons and training to let an "opportunity" pass, and their hatred/racism just makes it worse when that is part of the equation.

[Marengo]

43. What is your definition of a "gunner" in this context?

[Hoyt]

44. When most of your DU posts are in support of lethal weapons, I'd say "gunner" likely applies.

[Marengo]

45. These persons are most likely racists waiting for a chance to kill? Can you give us usernames?

[hack89]

47. Hoyt doesn't do quotes

You are expected to believe what he says without question because..... racism or something.

[Hoyt]

49. I don't expect someone enamored with gunz to understand the use of quotation marks or anything

else critical of their "hobby."

[hack89]

50. Since I don't own any gunz

not sure what your point is.

More to the point, unsubstantiated opinions devoid of both facts and proof are not what I consider criticism. But I know .... racism! Because owning a gun is no different then joining the klan. Or something.

[Marengo]

51. You: "I am quoting racist gun lovers". Can you cite or link to the source of these statements?

[Marengo]

61. Is hack89 a "gunner" as you define the term?

[OregonBlue]

29. But if it's Teabillys shooting other Teabilly's it's not really harm is it?

[Marengo]

55. Is being a "teabilly" itself a criminal act?

[HAB911]

4. Jama link has stopped working, here is another take

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-tied-to-huge-increase-in-homicides-8924443

[ileus]

5. What % of those are claimed self defense using SYG?

[Wounded Bear]

6. Guns are offensive weapons, not defensive....nt

[Marengo]

7. Guns are never used in self defense?

[Wounded Bear]

8. Only in the sense of 'the best defense is a good offense.'

Guns don't 'protect.' They provide violent response to a threat. A gun provides a means to counterattack.

[jmg257]

11. "A gun provides a means to counterattack." And an effective one at that!

"They provide violent response to a threat"

[Marengo]

12. Point taken. However, I would argue that protection is accomplished with the neutralization...

Of the threat.

[jmg257]

14. Strange - homicides up, even non-gun, but most crime rates down...

Burglary, aggravated assault, rape, robbery, Violent Crime, larceny, vehicle theft are all down.
Murder rates seem pretty consistent.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/flcrime.htm

Weird they say it has resulted in "far more harm" despite this, and without saying whether the homicides are justified or not. And why non-gun killings increased as well.



"The number of gun deaths in Florida is up across the board, but the increases are highest among whites aged 20 to 34."

"Importantly, the monthly homicide rate among African-Americans increased 32 percent, from 36 deaths each month to 48."

[Vinca]

18. If I wanted to murder someone, I'd take them on a vacation to Florida.

"Sorry, officer, but I felt threatened."

[etherealtruth]

19. Sickeningly, that is probably a workable plan

[Calculating]

21. irrelevant study

Correlation with no meaningful proof of causation.

[HAB911]

22. Irrelevant comment

I'm sure it's all an unfortunate coinkidink

[Calculating]

23. Insufficient evidence

Ho: Stand your ground had no effect on gun violence in Florida. H1: Stand your ground caused an increase or decrease in gun violence in Florida.

Insufficient evidence to conclude that stand your ground directly led to the increase in gun deaths in Florida. Conclusion: Do not reject the null hypothesis.

[HAB911]

24. I live here

I see it every day. barrel strokers just looking for a reason to pop a cap in anyone. It's all a coincidence. yep that's the ticket.

[Calculating]

25. Well don't give them a reason

So long as you don't attack them they have no legal right to shoot you. Just avoid altercations with random people in the street and there shouldn't be a problem right? Zimmerman was a POS and harassed Martin, but nobody forced Martin to attack him. Martin could have simply turned his back and walked in the other direction.

[HAB911]

27. Martin should have shot him and stood his ground

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028407809

too bad he wasn't armed.

[Skittles]

39. WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?

Zimmerman STALKED AND MURDERED Trayvon for NO REASON other than Zimmerman is a PARANOID, RACIST GUN HUMPING PIECE OF SHIT

no way in HELL did that prick not display his weapon, WHICH IS WHY MARTIN ATTACKED

go peddle your bullshit over at the FREAK REPUBLIC where it will be APPRECIATED

[HAB911]

41. WTF is wrong indeed

He is proving my point. He suggests I walk away from a confrontation rather then invoking my 2nd Amendment, stand your ground right. That right is reserved for little dick barrel strokers packing heat for that stressful drive home every day, LOL. No cognitive dissonance there.

[Calculating]

62. Why attack a guy displaying a gun?

Seems like the opposite of what I would do. I would turn and run like hell.

[etherealtruth]

28. The actual study cited an increase in the rate of homicide ... not gun violence.

[Igel]

30. I can't get to the actual article.

Just the press release. The headline says "rate," but the article entails "number." That's a egregious bit of confusion.

Meanwhile, there was a jump in the homicide rate from 2005 to 2006. http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/flcrime.htm

It ended a multi-year low-homicide period, and was the third lowest year (looking at the absolute numbers) since '77. In other words, the year taken as the baseline, as the standard for comparison, is an outlier. It's hard to not pick that year in some way, but "easy" isn't always "correct." Strictly speaking 2004 would have been a better year. The law too effect on 10/1/2005, so 25% of the baseline year is also in the dataset that's being evaluated. But if they'd picked 2004 they'd have not gotten the results they did. Again, picking an outlier skews the stats.

A few years after the jump in 2006, the rate declined again, presumably for reasons also not well understood since SYG didn't go away. The absolute numbers also declined, but not nearly as much. Comparing 2005 to 2015, there's an increase of 160 homicides. But the rate increased only by 0.1. What accounts for the difference?

The population increased during that time. Factor out the population increase and take a multi-year window for averaging the rates, and the increase vanishes. (Just eyeballing it, it looks like the rate declined. But that's because 2005 was anomalously low.) I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that whatever else happened perhaps the size of the male 18-24 year-old cohort in Florida increased.

Like I said, can't get to the original article. Perhaps they did note that the homicide rate went from 5.0 to 5.1 percent, after getting down into the upper 4.x range, and count that as a 30% (instead of a 2%) increase. Or perhaps they found other deaths to include. Dunno. But press-release conclusions devoid of statistical clarity are bad premises for much of anything.

[etherealtruth]

31. I found it earlier (via a backdoor google, but can't recreate to get to it ... articles dated 1/2017

From recall they used percentages (30%, 38%) ... I am sure they very carefully used the word homicide ... I don't have time to look .... but the study was conducted by researchers at Oxford (perhaps an "in" to the actual study).

I do agree with you ... reading a "pop-culture" analysis of a study can be very misleading

[LanternWaste]

53. It's important you cling to the study being irrelevant

It's important you cling to the study being wholly irrelevant, else your bias may be invalidated.

Agendas... god bless those little things!

[LittleBlue]

40. Bingo

The criminals should not be empowered. Stand-your-ground rules are necessary in any country where guns are available for self-defense purposes.

So glad this pro-criminal propaganda is getting debunked. The American people simply aren't falling for it.

[Orrex]

54. Unless, of course, gun violence had decreased

Then the fans of SYG would be heralding it as a miracle cure.

[rockfordfile]

38. Not surprised

With the creation of this pro nra "law" common sense would tell you that's gonna happen.

[Crunchy Frog]

46. Guess it's working as intended then.

The American Fascist Party wants Americans killing each other and living in perpetual fear.

[Lee-Lee]

48. Several things- like using homicide rates instead of murder rates

The use of homicide instead of murder rates is the first clue this isn't a good study to try and base policy on. Homicide isn't always murder, if a victim of an attempted rape shoots her attacker it is a homicide, but a justifiable homicide in the name of self defense (but some here would still label a rape victim fighting back a gun jumper). Likewise that justified police shootings are still homicides.

The states they compared Florida too also are not very good controls. None of them really are good controls as they don't match Floridas laws or demographic makeup very well- and they seem to have been cherry picked, with no mention of how both Florida and the controls compared to the national average.

They don't seem to have looked at any other changes in the law or policy during the same period to see if they are a cause.

And after all that even the study authors can't say that there is any causation between the law and the increase in homicides.

[HAB911]

60. Stand Your Ground law not working as intended despite changing self defense in Florida

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2015-11-21/story/stand-your-ground-law-not-working-intended-despite-changing-self-defense

It’s been a decade since Florida enacted a Stand Your Ground law designed to provide a simpler, faster, cheaper legal path for those defending themselves against accusations related to deadly force. And while that path still exists, it is infrequently used by defendants and even less frequently successful for them.

Meanwhile, the law has created ambiguities and misunderstandings about self-defense in Florida that are impacting the way deadly-force cases are defended and decided.

Records show that since the Stand Your Ground law was implemented, there have been 64 cases filed in Duval County in which defendants charged with felonies claimed self-defense and requested a Stand Your Ground hearing. Of those hearings, judges granted dismissals in just four. Eight defendants — twice as many — were acquitted after a trial. The other 52 reached plea deals, were convicted by juries, were committed to mental institutions or are still awaiting trial.

One of the four defendants whose charges were dismissed after Stand Your Ground hearings was Leonard Dillard, accused in the stabbing of Albert Camp outside a Main Street sports bar. Dillard was arrested in December 2011, but his Stand Your Ground claim wasn’t granted until September 2014. Circuit Judge Adrian G. Soud presided. “He looked right at me and said, ‘Mr. Dillard, this case is dismissed.’ I thought I could breathe again for the first time since I’d been arrested.”