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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy would they threaten Eastern Europe when US alone has a military 5 times bigger?
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,669 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Thus making US military spending a good thing.
And the 700 plus US overseas bases are also good things and purely defensive.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)And Ukraine. Why won't they attempt to destabilize countries they view as Russian? They got away with it before.
TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)the Russian half of the country.
Even if they had invaded, we are hardly in a position to judge them given the string of countries we have laid waste to since the end of the Cold War.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,172 posts)Crimea, which Russia had previously agreed by treaty belongs to Ukraine, is now Russian territory thanks to Putin sending in his troops. And Russian meddling in Eastern Ukraine created problems in that part of the country where it didn't exist before.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Is usually considered a bad thing in international relations.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,172 posts)But sadly I remember all that talk back in 2014 insisting, without evidence, that President Obama paid $4 billion for a "coup" in Ukraine and all that good stuff.
It was Russian disinfo then and it's still Russian disinfo today. Why are you still here buying it like a sucker?
yurbud
(39,405 posts)There is a long list of countries we have done it in that are a matter of public record and no amount of ad hominem attacks can hide that.
For the Ukraine, you might google Victoria Nuland and her role in the coup.
You might also look at who ended up in charge in the Ukraine.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,172 posts)Viktor Yanukovych, who just like Donald Trump was both a client of Paul Manafort and very much a favorite of Vladimir Putin, ran into trouble in the fact he was a hideously corrupt president who was stealing literally billions from the Ukrainian treasury, imprisoned his political opponents on bogus charges and persecuted his media critics. When he turned his back on the planned EU deal and towards Russia, Ukrainians had enough of it and started to protest. Yanukovych in turn sicced his secret police force on protesters, dozens were injured and later killed, and it only intensified public opposition to him even further. Eventually he didn't see the value of sticking around, Putin offered him safe harbor in Russia, and he took three days to pack up his luxury belongings in his mansion (all while people were literally dying in the streets) and flew off. Several days later, Putin moves into Crimea and claims it for his own, all in violation of previously acknowledged treaties.
But please, tell me more about how Victoria Nuland once handed out cookies to protesters and was caught saying "Fuck the EU" on the phone.
Also, not sure what Petro Poroshenko has to do with it in the end. Yes, like Yanukovych he's an oligarch and not being a Ukrainian citizen I can't speak either positively or negatively as to his effectiveness as President, but it's not like he forced Yanukovych to pack up his stuff and fly away, so I have no idea where you're going with that.
And just another FYI, if you're attempting to sound informed on the situation, you should note that "the Ukraine" is a non-standard reference to the country. It's actually just "Ukraine".
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Because someone is implicated in a bad act it then excuses bad acts by all others? .....this appears to be implied by your statements.
emulatorloo
(44,112 posts)Ethereal Truth nailed it.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028445555#post49
yurbud
(39,405 posts)emulatorloo
(44,112 posts)You'll have plenty of company w Putin's paid internet Trolls, The GOP, Trump and his Sec of State, the Nazi-lovers at Breitbart, and the deranged CT nuts on alt-left.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)emulatorloo
(44,112 posts)jehop61
(1,735 posts)Putin wants to reclaim nations from the old USSR. An American administration looking the other way when he does this, is exactly what he wants. The Fellow Traveler (a 50s term, look it up) in the White House, will give him what he wants. And there goes the balance of power.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)concerns that we could easily accommodate without compromising our security at all.
Generator
(7,770 posts)Are human beings Concerns now? It would be nice if they respected some borders. Or some human rights. You know shit like that. You made me laugh! Putin is scum. He loots is own country and his people suffer. The people in the countries he's concerned about also have shitty lives after all his concern.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)violate someone else's borders right now.
And this is also why Trump frequently criticizes NATO and the UN. Without the US, both of those organizations would likely collapse - or at least be utterly marginalized on the world stage, which is good enough for Putin's goals.
Igel
(35,296 posts)if you've said you're not going to use it.
Or, worse, you've threatened to use it but when pushed refused to.
"If you do this, Assad, it's a red line and there'll be hell to pay." A couple of weeks later, "Thanks, Volodya, for saving my bacon and coming up with a nice way to keep me from having to be nasty."
"Okay, Putin, we are *not* going to tolerate a frozen conflict in the Donbas." Three years later, there's a frozen conflict, almost. I say "almost" because the LNR and DNR are still busy sending large quantities of artillery shells and bullets that they can't locally produce and can't legally import from anywhere over the "borders" to kill and maim those in un-occupied Ukraine.
It's what the West has done in Abkhazia (twice), with S. Ossetia, in Transdnistria, in Crimea. It's what we did in Syria and with Aleppo. We jaw-jaw because that's always better than war-war, apparently, and any direct action might, just might lead to war.
At this point it's a pattern, with strong precedents that you can rely on. If you're committed to the idea there's no military option, then you've written off your military. If the other side thinks there's a military option, we can sleep soundly that we've made the country safe for hawk chickens--those who speak boldly and proudly before going off to sit on the eggs they've laid and wait for them to hatch.
AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)And he is really slow to do it. But when he sets his mind to it, he carries a pretty big stick.
Moving the troops takes out that jaw-jaw you say. Clearly we are ready for the war-war. Europe will be too. The world is on notice and the spotlights are on. I hope it is not too late.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)He wants to undermine liberal democracies, make them as crappy as Russia, and see them turn to autocrats as odious as him.
AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)Absolute power breeds absolute corruption. Totalitarians want it all.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)AgadorSparticus
(7,963 posts)In the way. If they could, they would rule the world too.
But Trump won't be there long enough. I think trump is going to quickly get impeached. It's the only way the Republicans can get rid of him, still keep that base, and put one of their own in.
haele
(12,646 posts)And that's what Putin wants. His people in high places affecting any nation or organization that can threaten him. No matter how it affects the average citizen of his country or any other country - because frankly, in the old Soviet he grew to power in, people don't really matter; they're disposable components to the workings of the State.
Haele
edhopper
(33,562 posts)We know have a,President who will let them and won't use the military.
He wants to dismantle NATO.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)a peace dividend then, and ramping up hostility to Russia now won't help anyone but bankers and weapon makers.
edhopper
(33,562 posts)Putin now wants to dominate.
Or do you agree with Trump that we take Russia's side.
?
yurbud
(39,405 posts)edhopper
(33,562 posts)to occupy other countries?
yurbud
(39,405 posts)not invade it.
If he did invade one of the smaller Eastern European or Baltic states, he knows at a minimum, it would kill trade with Europe.
It would be committing economic suicide.
Why does our foreign policy so often depend on assuming other world leaders will act like the bad guys in a shitty action movie, whose whole purpose in life is to be killed by the hero?
edhopper
(33,562 posts)and the Ukraine.
And Trump wants us out of NATO.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)We don't want them manipulating our elections, especially to the benefit of racists, homophobes. nativists, xenophobes, misogynists, and bigots?
Where is the empathy for their victims ?
Don't see much here.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)who still call them deplorables.
Ironically, when we interfere with other countries governments, it is often to install racists, fascists and the like (though the main criteria is obedience to our business interests and banks).
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)You're confusing consistent and typical reactions to foreign political and military events with "ramping up hostility." It both flaws your basic premise and illustrates a dramatic bias.
Xolodno
(6,390 posts)The narrative is:
Putin wants the Soviet Union back....because he said the collapse of the Soviet Union was geo political disaster. Oh and he's a homo-phobe. Nevermind that Ukraine and Georgia oppressive laws against LGBT communities that are just as bad as Russia's.
Uh, yes it was a geo political disaster that resulted in war, Russian areas being incorporated into nations that weren't Russian, economic chaos, social unrest, etc. Nor did it help things that the US was determined to keep Russia a weak nation and undermine all their interests, historical ties, etc. And no, Putin doesn't want a new "Soviet Union". It collapsed because the empire was too much to maintain. Belarus offered to reunite and Putin turned it down. That's hardly the attitude of someone who wants a new Soviet Empire. And lets not forget, the former republics state lines were unilaterally drawn by the Soviet Union to include Russian territory to make it hard for any succession that was allowed by the Soviet Constitution....and none of this was given any consideration.
"Russia is the enemy" is bilking us out billions that can be used for infrastructure, health care, social security, etc. But no, we have to spend it on a military that could already take on Russia if it had to.
And yes, we got screwed over when they wouldn't allow Russia to join NATO....and many here have no idea that happened.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)Xolodno
(6,390 posts)...Bibles printed during war time. They change "Thou shalt not kill" to "Thou shalt not murder". Change language, omit history, rewrite history, etc. to fit the agenda. We're being set up for a cold war with ourselves...and way too many fall for it every time. And of course if you call it out, you get accused of not supporting the current leader, party, etc. When it really has nothing to do with it.
Generator
(7,770 posts)If we stand against what they do is a Putin talking point. There are many options besides war. Jill Stein-also pro-Putin said the same thing. It's rubbish scare mongering and you can read it on on RT any day of the week.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)When their regime is so incredibly repressive. I don't want to help enrich them as they seek to expand their borders and their influence. Why would I?
yurbud
(39,405 posts)Bankrolls terrorists as even Hillary acknowledged in her emails, and has one of the most repressive regimes in the world.
Our government like most, doesn't choose allies and enemies based on how nice or democratic they are or aren't.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)But that ain't Eastern Europe.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)It's the person who has the least qualms about hurting the other person.
Russia knows they can invade Georgia and Crimea and Ukraine militarily because the US won't respond with its own military, no matter how big it is.
Progressive dog
(6,900 posts)threatening Eastern Europe. The governments of Eastern Europe used to be their puppets.
Why did they interfere in US elections?
haele
(12,646 posts)They've felt the need to collect satellite states to protect them from Europe and the Asia since the 11th century.
Putin is trying to rebuild the old Soviet. He's an Andropov acolyte though, rather than an outright Stalinist. Lots of Mob corruption.
Haele
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,338 posts)Or Lithuania or Estonia.
In TrumpWorld, those three little countries are insignificant and don't pay their fair share to NATO, so fuck'em.
Plus, Putin sees China taking over the South China Sea, so why can't Russia take over the Arctic Ocean?
So, it's a risk, but why not test Prez Trump, and his money-hungry Secretary of State?
yurbud
(39,405 posts)JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,338 posts)Plus, hate to say it, but we probably care more for European and NATO countries than we do some peninsula in Asia.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)TubbersUK
(1,439 posts)which, based on what we've seen of Trump's position, could be quite a lot.
JPZenger
(6,819 posts)Russia doesn't want a world war. However, they find that if Russia acts crazy enough, the West is willing to step aside to avoid them.
Hekate
(90,640 posts)He is no friend to democracy, anywhere.