I suspect this supposed report on Trump was fabricated in order to discredit the media and left

[Lee-Lee]

I want it to be true. I really do. I want to see something like this bring him down. But I fear this is a staged attempt to discredit anyone who runs with it.

There are many, many issues with this document.

There is no such classification as "Confidential/Sensitive Source" in US or British intelligence. There is Confidential in US and Official is the Brit equivalent, however what is in this document is way, way more sensitive than what would be classified at that low a level. It is possible that the private company used that classification, but highly, highly doubtful. The private agencies like that work hand in and with the government agencies and hire people from them, and if a person has 20 years of understanding one meaning of "Confidential" a private company staffed with them isn't going to use it in a very different way. Not only that, but the headers suddenly stop after a few documents despite the following ones having info of just as sensitive nature, if not more. Why?

The documents conveniently use "source A, B, C etc" in an attempt to appear they are keeping the identities of the sources secret, but then reference enough detail that any Russian counterintelligence agents could easily figure out who they are from the detail given- like saying the "female employee of the hotel" where the female part is totally irrelevant to the document but would make identifying that source easier by eliminated all the male staff with access to that info. No professional analyst would do that. It also presents all those identities in a convenient way that only involves the existence of the story line in this document. That is not how it is done, the world is much bigger than this story and the work with sources is far older, so the idea that the identities of the people involved conveniently start with "source A,B, C" just as this story starts is not how sources are listed. And the first documents give you background on those sources just like the start of a book, as if the whole story starts right there. In reality they wouldn't give the background on those sources but would have actual designators for those sources from the moment they were cultivated and they wouldn't be "A, B, C" directly in line with just this one story because they would have much more history with them. They way this is constructed it stands alone with background on the players in the first leaked piece conveniently starting with "source A" right at that point. Way too convenient, like a short story more than a handful series of leaked documents from a much larger source.

The document has several things that read more like a Tom Clancy novel like how it uses the term "komprmant" then defines it for the reader- the target audience of this document is supposedly intelligence professionals and the source is supposedly intelligence professionals, they won't use the Russian term just for color in the reading and they won't define such a basic term. That is written like something intended to educate or entertain the reader, not like a professional document meant for professionals. This repeats in several other places where very basic stuff is explained that wouldn't be in a document intended for intelligence professionals.

The document switches between British English and American English, giving the indication it was created by the speaker of one or the other trying to pretend to be the opposite. In this case there is a HUGE giveaway that this document was authored by an American on page 2 where is references the "World Cup Soccer Tournament". Only Americans call it soccer, and only an American would feel the need to add "soccer tournament" after World Cup. If this document was actually of British origin it would most likely just say "World Cup" because that is perfectly understood, and if they felt the need to add more it would be described as a "football tournament". That was the part that tipped me toward this being a fabrication when I saw it, there is nobody in the UK who would describe the World Cup as a "soccer tournament" and this document is claimed to be of British origin.

There are other things that just don't seem right too, and the whole thing wraps up way too cleanly. Leaked documents never are such a clean picture with an earliest one giving all the background on players like this, this looks more like someone started trying to tell the story and make it look like leaked documents.

I may be very wrong. I hope I am. But I see enough red flags to say that we need to move very carefully on how we push this until there is more information that can back this up, because there are a lot of red flags. And if this turns out to be a fabrication it could stand to harm the credibility of those who run with it and will be a tool for Trump to discredit any further bad news that comes out about him by saying "sure, you people reported that fake golden shower story too, this is just as fake".

I know some people want to believe this despite anything and will attack me for posting this- all I am saying is tread with caution until we get more information that backs this up, because your credibility is on the line and I see lots of red flags in this.

[a kennedy]

1. D*mn, I know you're right.........it's just so good. eom

[Canoe52]

2. If tRump can say Obama was born in Africa

We the people can tweet about #GoldenShowers.

[Cha]

4. Exactly, Canoe

[berni_mccoy]

25. Boom

[Paladin]

23. Bullseye. (nt)

[MFM008]

57. Exactly

If this gives maggot heartburn, I'm all for it.

[Girard442]

3. You may very well be right, but...

...this is a story that could stick even if it's not true. It pulls together all of the threads: Trump as a perv, an asshole, and a suckup to Putin -- things that we know are true. It's so damn truthy, the actual truth may not even matter in the long run.

[Cha]

6. Excellent points.. and there's this..

And, he hates Obama

[underpants]

7. I agree. Actual facts are important but in this case - screw it

He has benefited for just making crap up and his spokespeople daily spew nonsense. Well what goes around comes around. Let them run around in circles trying to correct this (IF it's not true) and see how they like it.

[Cha]

47. This is perfect karma for predatory liar.. I tend to believe it's

actually true.

[Lee-Lee]

9. The problem is that if its a setup they will bring out something to discredit everyone pushed it

That is where this may differ from the Dan Rather story- if this was done by Trump supporters they may later put up proof it was a fabrication to "show how bad the media and left are at following fake news" in an attempt to discredit.

It could end up being far more damaging to our side. Not just to the credibility of those who shared the story, but also to the credibility of any future stories that have bad information on Trump because they can say "sure, just like the golden shower nonsense you reported too" to cast doubt.

[0rganism]

64. they'll try to do that whether it's true or not

truth doesn't matter anymore, they told us so themselves
now it's all about the willingness to act on whatever you prefer to be true and having enough volume to make the propaganda stick

[lapfog_1]

5. a Dan rather take down

something that might actually be true (like W's TANG records) but reported using a fake document (typewriter was too modern) and thus the entire thing debunked and people reporting it fired / quit.

This smells too good and too easy to be true.

And, even though this has been circulating for 6 months, it comes out AFTER the election and DURING the packed confirmation hearings on some very controversial nominees.

[Freethinker65]

16. Exactly what I am afraid is happening

[louis-t]

52. Even if it is false, it keeps the narrative in the news.

Hopefully for years. Eventually, "golden showers" will stick to him like glue.

[lapfog_1]

61. sexual assault as in "grabbing them by the pussy"

didn't stick and that was on tape.

I don't think the right wing in this country gives two craps about what he does in his own sex life, even the holier than thou evangelicals, what they care about is overturning Roe V. Wade and telling kids that only abstinence works and... they dream of removing contraception pills from the market or only giving them to married couples... and they dream of rolling back "the homosexual agenda" by which they mean "it's ok to discriminate against gays again"

The only reason they would care about tRump is that he was/is operating as an agent of the Russian oligarchy because they have both financial and sexual blackmail on tRump.

[ismnotwasm]

8. I don't care

It's way too entertaining making fun of him. And we will never know the truth...unless there are videos of his pee fetish

[delisen]

10. It does illustrate the power of fake news though. n/t

[Docreed2003]

11. Honestly...I have zero effs to give about whether this is true or not

The press had no issue running with emails and Wikileaks and going back further birtherism. It's far past time for the right to taste a bit of their own medicine. While the details in the report may be suspicious, there is no doubt of Trumps Russian connection, and if this report makes them squirm, even just a little, I'm good with that.

[Lee-Lee]

13. Unless it is a setup by them to discredit the media and the left

If enough people run with this then someone pops up with proof of how they fabricated it all the credibility of the media and the anti-Trump movement takes a huge hit, and from now on they can use this as an example of why other bad stories about him shouldn't be believed.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Many media sources say it's been shown around for months

A BBC correspondent said he was told about it in August, for instance. He also specified that the first client of the private intelligence operation was a Jeb Bush superPAC.

[Freethinker65]

18. Yep. and Donald can attack the dishonest media and tell "us" to trust him to save America

[Docreed2003]

42. But they were going to do that either way, that was set when the "fake news" reporting began

After the election. I understand your point and concern, and I have no doubt that the Trump administration will do everything in its power to deligitimize the press, they were always going to do that. The way the Trump apologists are obsfucating and reacting to this issue tells me they truly got caught with their pants down on this. Trump was briefed on this my intelligence agencies on Friday and yet Kellyanne is on Seth Myers saying Trump was never briefed. We know that's just blatantly false. They need to be forced to answer hard questions about this in the same manner President Obama was forced to face the bullshit birtherism. Perhaps I'm being overly emotional, but turnabout is fair play here.

[Freethinker65]

55. Oh I agree with you....but why make it easier to discredit the true media/journalists?

If the media/journalists can just wait until they can verify what information in the BuzzFeed dropped document is true, what is false, and what is still unverifiable, they can keep the general public's confidence. Unfortunately we are running out of, or have already run out of (?) time and there is a rush to believe anything that can potentially derail Trump and the GOP. Keep hammering with the damning information known to be true, verify the rest. Proceed with caution.

[Canoe52]

62. Maybe it will push tRump into trying

to "impeed" on our first amendment rights.

I'd love to see the sh*t storm that would cause.

Plus according to his press conference this morning, he's blaming the intelligence agencies for all of this, that also might come back to bite him.

In the meantime...

[hells]

12. I'm pretty sure

it's fake. And even if it's not there will not be enough proofs. But the thing is - these people have been spreading propaganda as far as I remember. tRump himself started gaining attention after he started spreading lies about Obama's birth certificate and now he's crying like a little baby. You know what - fuck 'em. The only reason why drumpf won is because of fake news. Remember the stories "Hillary is murdering people" or "Obama's a muslim" or that bullshit about the flag being white. Their little political party probably paid millions of dollars to advertise their lies and make them popular. So it's fine to use fake news as long as it's against democrats but if it's used against republicans they start screaming "dishonest media".

Anyways, while I agree that made up stories will make even more morons believe that the "dishonest media" is attacking tRump, at least this story achieved something - it humiliated him and it's honestly pretty funny to see him raging on twitter.

[Raster]

27. No. Not fake...

...absolutely CLASSIC Putin/KGB, and tRump the most absolutely clueless "world leader" to fall right in. USEFUL IDIOT, indeed!

[radical noodle]

53. Russia monitors people that come and go

Trump was there several times and the Russians knew it. They would have watched him. His past behavior doesn't rule out anything, so whatever he did... they know it and could use it. He's been far too defensive about Russia for no apparent reason.

[Island Blue]

14. How did that staff meeting go?

"What story can we make up to distract them this time?"

"I don't know, how about something involving Donald, hookers and pee?"

"Sounds like a plan to me. Let's go with that."

[Solomon]

49. You're thinking the same way I am. There are plenty of other fake stories they could

have planted. But one about pee? I was telling my wife last night that it doesn't make sense to plant a fake story like that one. They run the risk that people will believe it. There's a ton of other subjects they would have chosen to run a fake story about.

[Dream Girl]

15. According to Malcolm Nance, this wouldn't have gone into Intel briefing

Unless they had their own independent verification

[jannyd65]

48. Malcolm Nance...

Malcolm Nance has been saying for months that the Russians may have something on Trump. Now, is it his proclivities for deviance, who knows, but as one DU poster said in another thread, it is the fact that Trump associated with Russian oligarchs and the like while he was in Russia.

Nance has repeatedly said that things are not put out to the media unless they believe the have credible intel. Also, Richard Angle ( I think he was on with Rachel last night) said that the whole point of this briefing for Trump was to alert him to the fact that Russia may have MORE credible intel on him. The golden shower situation could be a red herring-we don't know.

But, don't forget-the PeeGate thing-Trump has been alleged to sexually assault women for years and that he likes to humiliate his enemies has been known, again, for years. So this new controversy is not out of the realm of having possibly happened.

[NYC Liberal]

19. Except there are far more allegations from various sources about his ties to Russia.

This is hardly the only one.

The Bush-TANG story was a single allegation with a single one-page letter as proof.

[Lee-Lee]

20. I suspect someone took those allegations and made this document

And then will expose it as a fake to discredit those allegations.

[tinrobot]

21. Then why would they fabricate the sexual stuff?

All that does is make people laugh at him. It plants a very bad image of him that can't be erased.

Sorry, but it is too glaring of a detail to be planted by his side. For that reason alone, I'm not buying the argument.

[emulatorloo]

22. Sorry, Trump is saying US Intelligence leaked this report

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028458418

[HoneyBadger]

28. If it really is a false flag, then Trump probably leaked it himself

I said leaked 👍

[emulatorloo]

30. Ha ha!

[wishstar]

24. Several elements have been previously confirmed- Manafort and Page's contacts with Russia

Also, in latter weeks of campaign there was credible reporting on obvious foreknowledge by Trump of subject of wikileaks emails (altered) before they were actually made public. His unwavering support of Putin and changing of Repub platform towards Russia gives credibility to collusion and some element of blackmail, although I am not convinced these memos explain the whole story.

But certain details as presented in the memos are likely questionable hearsay that can't be exactly corroborated. Appears that the information passed through several hands in process of conveying and recording the information, leaving behind some obvious technical errors and amateurish writing.

It's possible, but I think doubtful that whoever leaked the information is trying to damage Democrats and discredit the whole story. Seems that the new info raises enough red flags and casts doubts about Trump and his team perhaps helping slow down the confirmation process and force Congress to look more closely at ethics and conflicts of interest with Trumps's appointees.

Report also raises some problematic issues that haven't previously got much exposure- Trump's deals with China and other countries allegedly involving bribes and kickbacks while he purposely turned down some Russian deals supposedly giving him plausible deniability over Russian collusion.

[Paladin]

26. When you're dealing with someone like Trump, you use the weapons available.

This is payback for years of Trump-inspired Birther-ism, and for the "Put Her In Jail" ugliness of Trump's recent campaign. He's Mr. Golden Showers from now on, as far as I'm concerned. We'd be self-destructive fools not to use these latest developments to our advantage.

[mnhtnbb]

36. If he actually is inaugurated (I wouldn't be surprised to see him step aside before 1/20)

he will forever be known as President Pee Pee.

[Paladin]

44. I hope captain pissgums does exactly that. (nt)

[libtodeath]

29. So what if it isnt true

let the asshole squirm.

[mnhtnbb]

38. I don't give a hoot if the details aren't true because I do believe the Russians have

something on him.

I do believe he colluded with the Russians to mess with our elections.

I do believe he has all kinds of ties to Russia through his businesses.

I do believe he probably has narcissistic personality disorder and that he is a pathological liar.

I do not like the idea of a President Pence, but Trump occupying the Oval Office scares the crap out of me.

I want Trump GONE!

And I do believe that the anti-Trump forces have figured out that humiliating him is the way to force him out.

[KittyWampus]

54. That's the point to stick to. They have kompromat on him. Multiple intel sources around the WORLD

are now confirming it openly. If it's not "Golden Showers", it's something.

[pangaia]

31. Very interesting analysis.

May I ask a question, if this is true, that it is fake, why would 'top US intelligence officials' brief Obama and Trump on it and say something about the source being known and very reliable in the past, things like that?

[cyclonefence]

32. I disagree

This "report" is not an official intelligence document. It was written, under contract, by a retired British intelligence agent who was hired first by Republicans opposed to Trump (I have read that it was John McCain who gave the report to the FBI), then by Democratic operatives, so it doesn't matter that it does not conform to standard regulations.

Democrats were picking at Comey all day long to get him to reveal that he has this report, and he refused to acknowledge that he has this (unspecified) information because the usual ongoing investigation shit. If it were clearly a fake, I don't think he would hesitate to denounce it as such. What better way to be rid of these allegations once and for all?

The report itself isn't a leaked document. It was written to tell the story, so of course background material, etc., is present that you wouldn't find in an official document. The report is a document that was leaked; it was composed under contract, not leaked to the people who paid for it. Some one or more of those people leaked it.

I believe every word of it.

[Cha]

40. Thank you for this, cyclonefence. You make good sense

[flamingdem]

43. I think so too!

This is the real deal though a few details may be incorrect.

[FarCenter]

50. So why is the author's identity not being revealed?

He is presumably a former British spy who worked in counterintelligence against Russia, probably MI-6 (but maybe MI-5, since it is counterintelligence). He was working for an American company that was retained to do opposition research on Trump.

In the intelligence world "former" is a squishy thing. He may also have been working for the UK when he did the report.

In June, the former Western intelligence officer—who spent almost two decades on Russian intelligence matters and who now works with a US firm that gathers information on Russia for corporate clients—was assigned the task of researching Trump's dealings in Russia and elsewhere, according to the former spy and his associates in this American firm. This was for an opposition research project originally financed by a Republican client critical of the celebrity mogul. (Before the former spy was retained, the project's financing switched to a client allied with Democrats.) "It started off as a fairly general inquiry," says the former spook, who asks not to be identified. But when he dug into Trump, he notes, he came across troubling information indicating connections between Trump and the Russian government. According to his sources, he says, "there was an established exchange of information between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin of mutual benefit."

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/veteran-spy-gave-fbi-info-alleging-russian-operation-cultivate-donald-trump

[cyclonefence]

60. It probably will be

eventually; I don't see that her identity is all that important if the statements in the report can be verified.

[Cattledog]

51. +1

[KittyWampus]

56. Clarification. It was JEB! who paid for it and then apparently passed it to McCain afterwards.

And I don't think Clinton ever got it... hence Reid getting wind of the research and sending a letter to Comey.

And he'd have to write to Comey and not CIA because the CIA can't handle intelligence about an American candidate.

[herding cats]

66. I basically agree with you here.

Except I'm not sure it's 100% gospel, but I'm confident much of it is accurate.

Beyond that, it's not a fake document, nor is it a classified document. It's was private opposition research against Trump that the FBI has had, at least in part, since at least August of last year. And, we know the FBI has had it in its entirety since December of last year when McCain handed a copy he'd been sent to Comey.

Also, it was a series of memos compiled by the firm run by an ex M16 agent. It's never been said that these memos were all written by his own hand.

[madokie]

33. I'm very concerned about this

remember how Dan Rather was forced out with the report on W and the Texas National Guard story.

I suspect very much that this is a planted story to discredit the intelligence community as well as what little of a Press we have left

ETA: The mo'fo's as well as tRump and the 'CON party plays DIRTY

[GusBob]

34. Seems as if McCain fell for it

Flew all the way to Europe to check it out. Gave it to the FBI

Could be fake, but parts of it could be real. British spies are very clever. read the book "Operation Mincemeat" their attention to detail is obsessive, almost to a fault. Even Hitler felt the info on the dead body was "too perfect"

The reason for the differences in language could be the idea that it is coming from different sources, the consultant is just using their jargon.

As far as the female employee of the hotel, there is one person who would have to clean up that bed, and that would be a maid.

Poor thing, I reckon she was shocked

I hear what you are saying, it could be fake so no flames

[flamingdem]

45. LOL, when the screenplay is written

it can be told from her viewpoint

[octoberlib]

35. The reports were initially commissioned as opposition research by neverTrump

Republicans. If anything, McCain etc will be the ones with egg on their faces if they're not true.


Senator John McCain passed documents to the FBI director, James Comey, last month alleging secret contacts between the Trump campaign and Moscow and that Russian intelligence had personally compromising material on the president-elect himself.

The Guardian can confirm that the documents reached the top of the FBI by December. Senator John McCain, who was informed about the existence of the documents separately by an intermediary from a western allied state, dispatched an emissary overseas to meet the source and then decided to present the material to Comey in a one-on-one meeting on 9 December, according to a source aware of the meeting. The documents, which were first reported on last year by Mother Jones, are also in the hands of officials in the White House.https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/10/fbi-chief-given-dossier-by-john-mccain-alleging-secret-trump-russia-contacts

[AngryAmish]

39. Who cares?

Trumpism will say it, we will believe it. It is funny. And if /pol/ really did pull it off, then it is very funny.

[emulatorloo]

41. The Guardian says it is real, and is from a respected source:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028457728

[ileus]

46. Even if it's not true, it'll always be true in my heart.

[Phoenix61]

58. Whether it's true or not

it will get people looking, really looking into Trump's relationship with Russia and China. Do you really think his business dealings would stand up to a forensic accounting audit? Now he can prove something didn't happen. Looks like he may have to find that tax return after all.

[wiggs]

59. Past gop behavior: If they ever admit to anything, the full truth about the

misdeed is much, much worse.

[kentuck]

63. That is a possibility but...

why did John McCain get involved?

I think there is something there and his primary defender is Putin. But, if Putin keeps it under wraps, then Donald would owe him bigly.

[herding cats]

65. We're all over thinking this. This is a 35-page compilation of memos..

It was done by an agency run by an ex M16 agent. It's reasonable to assume the owner wasn't the only person working on these memos.

These were sent to the Trump opposition (most likely Jeb) initially, and then later others.

They've been circulating since last summer, but it's possible they've been added to since then.

The intelligence community knows the owner of the firm that compiled the memos, and believes them to be reliable along with their sources.

The intelligence community presented a two page synopsis of these memos to President Obama, and then three days later to Trump. Which implies they give at least some credence to some of the information in the memos.

Intel such as this isn't all going to be accurate, but some of it is and that's how intelligence works. They have to weed out the real from the bullshit.

What CNN reported seems quite legit.

The memos Buzzfeed posted are not verified, but are apparently, per media who've seen them since last summer, the memos which have now been linked to the intelligence community's 2 page synopsis presented to the president and Trump.

I may have missed some points, but I think that's about where we are now.

[pnwmom]

67. I'd just point out that this document was not written for an audience of

intelligence officials, as you say.

This repeats in several other places where very basic stuff is explained that wouldn't be in a document intended for intelligence professionals.

It was written for the Republican campaign opponents who commissioned it; and then for the HRC campaign.