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[bupkus]

This message was self-deleted by its author (bupkus) on Fri Sep 28, 2012, 09:14 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Wilms]

1. Steve Jobs - American Hero

[Amerigo Vespucci]

2. I worked for Apple as a contractor...

...the fanboy shit is SERIOUSLY overrated.

I was there during the Scully years, prior to The Second Coming Of Steve©.

Corporations are people too, my friend.

[TomClash]

3. UNION

[marybourg]

4. That's right.

[hfojvt]

23. ...

[TomClash]

62. I tried to get a good photo

But you trumped me!

[entanglement]

5. Ain't capitalism grand?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

6. Progressive icon Steve Jobs hated unions.

So this shouldn't surprise anyone. I'll wait for all the apologists to come here and cry "BUT THESE OTHER COMPANIES DO IT TOOOOO".

[WCGreen]

54. He took it personal that "his" workers didn't need a union because he was....

so progressive and cool.

[JHB]

67. That's the hubris of the "good" boss...

"My employees are like family to me" is a familiar refrain from people who think of themselves as "good bosses", except...


1) when push comes to shove, the only part of "like family" that holds up is a parental "because I said so!"

2) Employees are not kids (much less their kids). They have other points of view, and disagreeing with the boss is not being "ungrateful" nor betraying the "family".

3+) add your own

[former9thward]

7. Apple is giving its workers a 25% pay increase this year.

I suspect that is more than most companies are giving. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-21/apple-retail-store-workers-said-to-receive-wage-increases.html

[MADem]

11. He'd probably take ten bucks an hour if he could get a percentage of his sales. nt

[Initech]

45. It's still completely disgusting that the CEO makes 22,000 times the average worker.

I'm with Bill Maher when he said Occupy Wall Street needs to get their asses out of the tents and on the campaign trail - this isn't going to change until they do.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

10. 25% of $11.25 is $2.81.

Break out the Dom Pérignon!

Apple has an ACS-run call center in Raleigh paying its Tier 1 associates about $9.00/hour. Strong communities are not built on $9.00/hour.

[hfojvt]

13. Does anybody else think $11.24 is not that bad?

How much do people think he should make? Is $15 an hour enough?

[former9thward]

14. If it is Apple you will find no number is enough.

Any number you suggest would still be criticized as Apple still making a profit.

[Logical]

17. And people like you would defend them if they paid them nothing!

[former9thward]

18. No I have standards and use logic.

Unlike the I Love To Hate Apple Crowd.

[Logical]

20. The pro-apple crowd and anti-apple crowd are no different!

[Confusious]

52. It's not logic you're using

14. If it is Apple you will find no number is enough.
Any number you suggest would still be criticized as Apple still making a profit.

It's called Hyperbole.

[former9thward]

55. Yet no one suggested a number.

What is yours?

[Confusious]

56. Been a lot of suggestions downthread

Apple seems to be doing well, $15 to $17.5 seems reasonable, and a bonus for really good salesmen like this guy.

[Elwood P Dowd]

15. I know kids working at Target and Lowes that would love to make $11.24 an hour selling computers

in an Apple store. Face it, big company retail jobs don't pay shit. They usually start in the $8.00 to $9.00 an hour range.

[Confusious]

53. The great service economy! nt

[Merlot]

16. It's pretty mediocre

Apple sales people really know their products well and are very helpful. It's a high end products, usually sales in high end retail involves commission or incentives. With Apple being as profitable as it is, they should work out a better structure for their sales force.

BTW, 11.24 is about what I was making in retail in the early 90's in the travel industry. Same level of expertise was needed for that job. Prices are much higher now.

[hfojvt]

22. in the early 1990s

I was making $5.40 an hour at a satellite dish factory. And after I got laid off from that in 1995, I went to snow shovelling and then another satellite dish factory making about $7 an hour by piece rate and with a 40 minute one way commute, and then to part-time janitor job making $5.50 an hour, then to an auto parts factory (for one week) making $7.15 an hour (and feeling like I was getting the crap beaten out of me) and then back to no-benefits part-time janitorial work for $7.15 an hour.

So, from my perspective, $11.24 is not that bad.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

19. He sold $750,000 worth of stuff in 3 months...

why isn't he paid a fair commission or bonus?

[hfojvt]

21. Why should he be, if the products sell themselves?

How much value does a Wal-mart checker move on an 8 hour day? Probably for about $8 an hour.

My guess is if he said "screw it, I quit, I am not making enough money" That two things would be true. 1. He would not be able to find a better paying job, and 2. Many people would be lined up to take his job at his current pay.

Anyway, from where I sit, $11.25 is not that bad. My brother was just telling me about his assistant hotel manager. He/she gets paid a salary, and typically works more than 40 hours a week. His/her salary - $32,000.

[TeamPooka]

26. do you have to teach a person how to sleep in the room?

Computer sales is real hardcore sales.
Computers cost hundreds and thousands of dollars.
People businesses rely on them.
Customers have real questions unlike a hotel assistant manager who's focus is customer service.

[TeamPooka]

25. 11.24 sucks How about a total of 10% of his sales? Is that a fair number?

Keep his base at 11+ and provide quarterly sales bonuses.
That would put him at 75K and allow a family to be raised in the middle class while allowing Apple to make a nice profit on those $800 iPads that cost $24.87 to make in China.
I sold cars a long time ago and made 25% of the dealers total profit on the car.
Apple could do that but then they would have to be honest with employees about delivered cost.

[hfojvt]

27. so you think $75,000 is "middle"?

How about some facts? For 2006

top 1% - over $388,806, average $1,320,289
next 4% - over $153,542, average $218,434
next 5% - over $108,904, average $127,532
next 15% - over $64,702, average $87,147
next 25% - over $30,563, average $46,265
bottom 50% - less than $30,563, average $14,979

IRS estimates, 75% of tax filers made less than $64,702. Many of those are households with TWO incomes. So this dude at $11.24 an hour is already in the middle if he has a spouse making minimum wage. That would be over $40,000 a year for the couple - more than 50% of tax filers make.

[TeamPooka]

29. so you blame people

for corporations devaluing their worth and underpaying them?

[hfojvt]

42. value judgements like "blame" are not part of a discussion of facts

It is factual that most households, often with two incomes, do not make $75,000 a year, much less most individuals make that much.

Therefore, in factual terms, the way the world actually is, $75,000 a year is not in the middle.

Now, you could argue that $75,000 a year OUGHT to be how much the average worker makes, but I might note that even if all the money in the US was divided equally, each taxpayer (many couples are filing jointly) only gets $62,369. And that the average for those of us in the bottom 50% is only $15,287. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=732414

[white_wolf]

28. I'm willing to bet he works harder for his money than most of the people on Apple's board.

At the bare minimum he should be receiving a living wage with full benefits. Every worker should receive that and if the CEO's have to take a pay cut so be it.

[Starry Messenger]

35. +2

And if your wages aren't high enough to comfortably afford the product you labor to sell, then how can Apple keep staying in business?

[hfojvt]

40. but what is a living wage

and what are full benefits? Because many people are working harder than this apple salesperson and making less money and with fewer benefits.

[white_wolf]

60. A living wage varies by where you live...

Benefits should include healthcare, maternity/paternity leave, sick days, at least a week of paid vacation. That should be the minimum for ever worker in this country, not matter what company they work for. I have no use for companies that refuse to pay their workers a living wage and benefit, especially when the parasites on top live like feudal lords.

[hfojvt]

41. I don't make that much money now

so it depends on a point of view.

I think I live pretty well, although I am not sure what a "decent community" is supposed to be.

Take away the hyperbole and I am guessing that more people are taking vacations and eating out than was true back in the 1970s, and home ownership is up since then as well.

[TBF]

51. How about some cites to back up these accusations?

"more people are taking vacations and eating out" - OK, let's see some comparisons from independent sources.

And "home ownership is up" - would you like to see it fall? Again let's see some numbers and I don't want them to be 10 years old - I want you to account for the foreclosures of the past few years.

Why do so many of your posts constantly parrot right-wing talking points?

[hfojvt]

64. What rightwing talking points?

That home ownership is still up? http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/hvs/historic/index.html

65.4% in the first quarter of 2012. 68.2% in the 3rd quarter of 2007, before the depression started. In 1972 - 64.3%

Not that much worse, but certainly not any better in the glory days of the 1970s.

Check out the SAUS table 684.http://www.census.gov/prod/www/abs/statab1951-1994.htm

Average expenditure on dining out (food away from home), in
1975 - 50.2 billion of 979.1 total consumption - 5.1%
2009 - $2,619 of 49,067 average expenditures -5.3%

Further that is a rising percentage (slightly) of rising income. Real average income of the middle quintile in 1975 was $43,199 and in 2010 it was $49,309. For the 4th quintile, the average was $26,331 in 1975 and $28,636 in 2010. http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/household/

average expenditures on entertainment
1984 - $1,005 (in 2009 dollars, that is $2,075)
2009 - $2,693

Speaking of averages, average real income of the top 5% was $168,184 in 1975 and $287,686 in 2010. The top has snarfed up much of the gains in the last 3 decades, but that does not translate into the idea that the working class was all so much better off in the good old days of the 1970s.

[TBF]

65. "The top has snarfed up much of the gains in the last 3 decades"

That is the best sentence in your post. Although percentages are higher, how much of that is the top 10% buying property, going on vacation, and going out?

I think it's a better indicator to look at who actually has the income:

?4c9b33

Between the end of World War II and the late 1970s, incomes in the United States were becoming more equal. In other words, incomes at the bottom were rising faster than those at the top. Since the late 1970s, this trend has reversed.

Data from tax returns show that the top 1 percent of households received 8.9 percent of all pre-tax income in 1976. In 2008, the top 1 percent share had more than doubled to 21.0 percent.

http://inequality.org/income-inequality/

[LeftyMom]

39. It's less than my first retail electronics job paid, in the middle nineties.

I got some sweet perks Apple store employees don't get, too. That $5/mo cell plan was awesome.

[hobbit709]

43. In most places $11.25/hr is barely living wage iif that.

$450 a week gross in a place where rent averages $1000 a month doesn't get you very far.

[hfojvt]

47. what is "most places"?

According to ITEP, in Missouri 40% of households make less than $31,000 a year. Two people making $11.24 an hour would be making $46,758 a year. So you think that 40% of Missouri households are not "living"?

(here's ITEP's pages on the various states http://www.itepnet.org/state_reports/whopaysfactsheets.php)

In Texas as well, 40% of households make less than $31,000 a year. Even in expensive New Jersey, 40% make less than $41,000 a year and in Connecticut, 40% make less than $44,000 a year. In California, 40% make less than $36,000 a year. In Massachusetts, $41,000 a year. In New Hampshire, $40,000 a year. In Illinois, $36,000 a year. In Wisconsin, $35,000. In Ohio, $32,000 a year.

In all of those states, for 40% of households, one, or both, workers in that household are making less than $11.24 an hour, because if they both were making that much, their household income would be $46,758.

Further, many more people are making $12, 13 or $14 an hour and probably also do not think that $11 is THAT bad, like it's minimum wage or something.

And if you are paying $1000 a month in rent, the problem is not that your wages are too low. Rather. the problem is, to coin a phrase, that the rent is too damn high.

[hobbit709]

48. When I first came to Austin in 1974

you could work 20-25 hrs a week at minimum wage and make enough to pay your rent, eat, and go out once or twice a week.
Now a 40 hour minimum wage job here means you're sleeping under an overpass because it won't even pay the rent.
Average rent in Austin is$1000/mo not even counting deposits and none are all bills paid anymore.
High rents, lousy public transportation, make Austin very expensive today.

I'm lucky, my house is paid for but it still costs me $300/mo to cover taxes and insurance. I get $923/mo from social security and I have medical coverage through the VA(My meds alone would cost me over $800 a month if I had to pay list price) but there plenty of people here who don't have that and are about 1/2 a paycheck or an illness away from being out on the street.

[LanternWaste]

44. I imagine a median living wage would be enough.

I imagine a median living wage would be enough.

[TBF]

50. Maybe we should talk about why the CEO makes so much

instead of beating up on workers.

[Selatius]

59. 11.24 is basically minimum wage circa 1969, adjusted for inflation.

Since then, the purchasing power of the minimum wage has steadily fallen. It hasn't been increased enough to keep up with inflation.

[FredisDead]

24. Microsoft, Amazon Amongst Top Tech Employers

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyclay/2012/06/22/microsoft-amazon-amongst-top-tech-employers/

http://www.payscale.com/battle-over-the-geeks


Looking for a job in tech? If money matters most to you, consider Microsoft as your top choice. According to new research from PayScale, the Redmond-based software (and potential future hardware) giant offers the highest starting salaries, with a median of $91,500 per year for workers with 0-5 years of experience. Microsoft also offers some of the best perks, including paternity leave. Amazon, also based in Seattle, offers great benefits as well, including some of the best stock options.

PayScale’s analysis of the top tech employers, presented as “Battle Over the Geeks”, reviewed pay, benefits, perks, work environment, typical age of employees and other factors that impact how each of the leading tech companies attracts the brightest minds in the business.

While Microsoft offers the highest starting salary, PayScale’s research found Google actually dominates pay over the long-term, with a median pay for workers with 10+ years of experience of $158,000. If being happy with your job is more important than your paycheck, though, consider LinkedIn. PayScale’s data reveals 100% of LinkedIn employees report feeling extremely or fairly satisfied in their work. That said, you may want to avoid Salesforce or Monster; employees at these companies most commonly report feeling extremely or fairly high stress on the job. And for those who like a good work-life balance, Facebook offers the highest amount of vacation among the leading tech companies, at 3.6 weeks per year.

[flamingdem]

38. Google makes you send all your college transcripts to get a job

and you better be under 33

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

30. Apple pays lousy at all levels

My girlfriend received an unsolicited offer from Apple a couple of years ago, she is the master of component pricing and making sure teams developing new products aren't designing something either too difficult to manufacture or too expensive to sell at a reasonable margin. Taking the offered Apple position would have amounted to an enormous pay cut while relocating to a very expensive area.

She said the recruiter seemed genuinely astonished when she turned them down.

[Brickbat]

34. "It's kind of tough."

Well, li'l imprecise Apple dude, either suck it up or do something about it.

[ellie]

36. That explains the horrible

customer service I get when I go in to an Apple store.

[flamingdem]

37. Hey but Iphones are cool and you can have pink hair

[RetailActionProject]

46. Any way you look at it, Apple employees are simply not getting their fare share...

Any way you look at it, Apple employees are simply not getting their fare share of the company’s profits. Apple asks their employees to know and do above and beyond what most retailers ask, and the NYT just showed we can get a bigger percentage of profits selling yoga pants. Apple employees deserve better. Just 1% commission would completely transform our paychecks, and the only way the company will give us what we deserve is if Apple workers come together to demand what we deserve.


Get connected to other Apple employees who want to see change by “Liking” the Retail Action Project on Facebook (www.facebook.com/retailactionproject), calling us at 646.490.5925, or emailing us at [e-mail].

[JCMach1]

49. Even a 1% commission would have majorly boosted his income %

but noooooooooo

FRAK APPLE!

[Jakes Progress]

57. For a more useful perspective try this.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/06/23/imagining_a_better_world_what_if_the_apple_store_were_the_worst_job_around_nbsp_.html

I mean if reality and the real world are pertinent.

[Jakes Progress]

63. Not if your whole purpose is to join the Apple bash wagon.

If you're already on that wagon, there is no use in talking. Apple is a corporation. There are no angel corporations. Some are bad, the rest are worse. Apple isn't as bad as most. When they were the little guy, the media (and the droolers who fall for their every word) loved them. Then, for a nice boost in audience, the media turned (like they did on Obama) and the droolers turned with them.

Tell me which tech companies have a better record for behaving than Apple. What computer are you posting with? Do you know anything about their record, or will you have to wait for the media bandwagon to fill you in? Of course, you could just throw all your tech stuff away. Should we wait?

You are a victim of the current craze. Apple isn't an angel company. They are not worse than any of the others. You just noticed the bright, shiny lights that the media is distracting you with.

The article I pointed you to discussed what the pertinent issues concerning the lack of worker pay is? It isn't Apple that you should be bothering yourself with; it is the political structure that lets corporations behave that way. Or can you tell me that the computer you are using pays better?

So in the midst of all the media turmoil about bad old Apple that gets people like you worked up, Matt tried to draw people's minds to a more pertinent discussion.

[Jakes Progress]

68. Do you read the posts in your own thread?

After the OP and the thread bashing Apple, you claim to be writing about the corporate monopoly of wealth and malignant capitalism.

That's great. You just agreed with the link in my post that you trashed. That was exactly what that link said. Congratulations for jumping on the new wagon.

Please show me where I countered anything. Then just because I injected a point in your tirade about the very thing that you now say you are ranting about, you have to say that I use hyperbole like the bad old guys. So when you don't get it or when you find someone trying to find actual meaning in your righteous circle of argument, you fall back on calling them bush lovers. Then you pull on the mantle of being the arbiter of factual information and truth. I have given all the time I can to the rambling effort of your last sentence. it is without point and lacking reference to anything I have posted on this thread. Try reading what you type when you type in a huff. Think before you hit post.

[demosincebirth]

58. Ahh, the rich get richer and the workers just take it in the shorts. What's new?