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suffragette

(12,232 posts)
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 04:22 PM Jan 2017

Lying about illegal voting is cover for election manipulation

It redirects the focus from the many tactics used to manipulate the election - purging; gerrymandering; providing too few working machines, having fewer polling places in college areas, poorer districts, and those with higher numbers of people of color; placing barriers to registration; and hacking by a foreign country.

It is an attempt to change the conversation from the above to one about whether or not illegal voting occurred. As with their other lies, they don't care about needing or even trying to prove this. They only care about redirecting the the topic.

73 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Lying about illegal voting is cover for election manipulation (Original Post) suffragette Jan 2017 OP
right on! triron Jan 2017 #1
Yep, they trot it out as needed. suffragette Jan 2017 #3
That's Why The Dems Need To Be On The Offensive Today As Trump Is Providing Them With.... global1 Jan 2017 #2
Excellent. I wish it was possible to "Rec" a reply. n/t Mister Ed Jan 2017 #12
The problem is that they'll limit it to voting fraud and not investigate election fraud. suffragette Jan 2017 #17
knr triron Jan 2017 #21
That Was A Long Time Ago And The Repugs At That Time Wanted To Turn The Election In Their Favor.... global1 Jan 2017 #32
Part of me agrees with you but I still think they would manipulate it into pushing through suffragette Jan 2017 #65
+1. n/t rzemanfl Jan 2017 #33
+ 1000 red dog 1 Jan 2017 #44
I'm going to call all my congresscritters to press for this. Hopefully others will, as well. JudyM Jan 2017 #61
+ 1 red dog 1 Jan 2017 #67
Yes! Everything he does is done to cover something up radical noodle Jan 2017 #4
Yep and to push for their agenda. suffragette Jan 2017 #23
Spot on! Truth...nt Wounded Bear Jan 2017 #5
Thanks! suffragette Jan 2017 #24
The right wing always projects. NRaleighLiberal Jan 2017 #6
That they do. suffragette Jan 2017 #26
Trump HAS A TELL- any sin, vice or corruption he mentions, it's projection. Did or doing it. n/t Turn CO Blue Jan 2017 #7
Yes, he's the projector-in-chief. suffragette Jan 2017 #50
I thought KKKobach's Crosscheck program... Cracklin Charlie Jan 2017 #8
Maybe Trump heard just enough from Kobach that he picked up the idea of millions of illegal votes. Amaryllis Jan 2017 #42
They know Crosscheck is about purging likely Democratic voters. suffragette Jan 2017 #48
Exactly! And this bait and switch method of theirs needs to be spread unitedwethrive Jan 2017 #9
Oh, yes. And called out for what it is. suffragette Jan 2017 #56
It has to be. alarimer Jan 2017 #10
Projection and manipulation. Over and over and over again. suffragette Jan 2017 #57
brava suffragette saidsimplesimon Jan 2017 #11
Yes, too many look at the headline and not below it. At least some of the headlines on this suffragette Jan 2017 #59
Let me be clear saidsimplesimon Jan 2017 #62
This message was self-deleted by its author Pacifist Patriot Jan 2017 #13
Very well stated. Did you see Padilla's response. Also well put. suffragette Jan 2017 #40
here's an explanation for how vote tally programming/results were stolen Rene Jan 2017 #14
Well here's an analysis done by Ron Baiman Ph. D. triron Jan 2017 #16
Not really loyalsister Jan 2017 #15
I'm not saying ignore it. It needs to be countered by noting that voter suppression is a far suffragette Jan 2017 #19
It inadvertantly backs Trumps accusations to declare fraud without ample evidence loyalsister Jan 2017 #22
I feel like we're talking past each other when we really agree, at least mostly. suffragette Jan 2017 #25
kick for visibility triron Jan 2017 #18
And Greg Palast has the data. Chalco Jan 2017 #20
Greg has part of the answer. triron Jan 2017 #28
True. nt Chalco Jan 2017 #37
They'll use it to justify more purging and restrictions IronLionZion Jan 2017 #27
Yes. They've been doing this for a long time and are ramping up to increase even more. suffragette Jan 2017 #41
That's right, they're laying down markers for future disenfranchisement efforts, rec, Nt Mc Mike Jan 2017 #47
They've already been doing so much of this. Now they're prepping to kick into higher gear. suffragette Jan 2017 #60
They're already miserably sucky human beings, when they get emboldened they're even worse. Mc Mike Jan 2017 #73
Trumped the shark C_U_L8R Jan 2017 #29
Trump is slowing sinking into insanity.. townie Jan 2017 #30
From an attorney who I know at the Brennan Center Gothmog Jan 2017 #31
I Think that is not all Oldtimeralso Jan 2017 #35
Yes, they've done it in the past and now are trying to do it on an even larger scale. suffragette Jan 2017 #63
Everything he says is a false flag bighart Jan 2017 #34
knr triron Jan 2017 #36
I wonder if there is any way at all an ordinary citizen could sue for a new election based upon Vinca Jan 2017 #38
exactly; it's essentially fake news to distract from the true election fraud worked by repugs. nt TheFrenchRazor Jan 2017 #39
Yes and to push for even more voter repression. suffragette Jan 2017 #69
It also justifies rigid voter ID laws and Crosscheck type operations. Have to prevent all those Amaryllis Jan 2017 #43
KICK! red dog 1 Jan 2017 #45
News Headlines Bear Creek Jan 2017 #46
Great post about how they engineer this to add more voter repression. suffragette Jan 2017 #64
Trump needs to believe certain lies for the sake of his ego. Ohioboy Jan 2017 #49
I agree. The "rigged" thing was too. underpants Jan 2017 #51
Absolutely. suffragette Jan 2017 #68
Bingo! Achilleaze Jan 2017 #52
Let's call for a full, independant audit of the election then meadowlander Jan 2017 #53
Carter would be the best person to do that, but Trump would never agree. suffragette Jan 2017 #72
Exactly why we must demand an investigation randr Jan 2017 #54
The thing is he didn't really need to change the conversation because NOBODY but himself TrekLuver Jan 2017 #55
History will absolve me malaise Jan 2017 #58
I believe it will, sis. suffragette Jan 2017 #66
Yeah.. Cha Jan 2017 #70
Thanks. I needed a laugh, even if just for a moment. suffragette Jan 2017 #71

global1

(25,216 posts)
2. That's Why The Dems Need To Be On The Offensive Today As Trump Is Providing Them With....
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 04:25 PM
Jan 2017

Last edited Tue Jan 24, 2017, 08:06 PM - Edit history (1)

the perfect opportunity to call for an intensive investigation into the voting and election process.

I posted this elsewhere at least two times now and am posting this again here:

The Dems Need To Call Trump On His Allegations And Make Him Put Up Or Shut Up.....

The Dems need to call for and push for an investigation about his claims that "3 to 5 million people" had voted illegally in the 2016 election. They need to say if this president believes this to be true that it completely undermines the whole election process and actions need to be taken to prevent this from happening in further elections.

They need to say that such an investigation needs to be comprehensive in that it will involve a thorough review of the voting and the election process in each state and that this investigation should result in standardizing the voting and election process across all the states. This would result in the possibility of either paper ballot voting or standardized voting machines (same in all states); prohibit reporting of results of an election until all votes are in across the country and they are reviewed and certified.

The American People need to be reassured that the process works and that their vote counts.

I believe that if the Dems push for such an investigation it will get the support of the American People or it will put Trump on notice that his lies have consequences and maybe prevent him from any future lies or putting out alternative facts.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
17. The problem is that they'll limit it to voting fraud and not investigate election fraud.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 05:14 PM
Jan 2017

I don't disagree with what you are proposing. Unfortunately, history shows that's not the direction the Republican majority would allow or take.

They've done that before when they tried to overturn Sanchez's victory over Dornan in California.

Back then, even all the attempts to repress the Latino vote (and there were many documented ones) weren't enough to keep Dornan in his seat.

Dornan kept screaming about voter fraud by "illegals" and throwing out wild stories about 'proof' that undocumented people had voted for Sanchez. He was very similar to Trump in many ways.

The LA Times ran quite a number of articles on this at the time, including investigative reporting that debunked some of his most flagrant lies.

Republicans in DC pushed for an investigation. They supposedly found a certain number of fraudulent votes. That number and the supposed fact that some were found was reported, of course as fact even though that was suspect as well. Still, not surprisingly, they could not find enough of a difference to overturn the result that Sanchez won.

While they were doing this, they also pushed for new legislation to make it even harder to register and vote. That is another part of why they push this BS about voter fraud so hard.

Meanwhile the genuine issue of the voter repression that occurred was not given the attention and was not being investigated.

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/sep/28/local/me-37111

At issue is whether illegal votes were cast, and for whom. Dornan has long contended that efforts to recruit new minority voters for Sanchez helped result in voting irregularities that cost him the election. Sanchez's campaign hotly disputes that.

Sanchez spokesman John Shallman said that if Republicans can show there are 984 individuals who voted fraudulently and that they cast ballots for Sanchez, then there should be a new election.

However, he said Sanchez and Democrats have reservations about the objectivity of the investigation.

"Thus far, the investigation has been anything but fair," he said. "It has been a farce."


http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/02/13/cq/sanchez.html

"The fact that we ended up with 748 illegal votes makes it clear his allegations had merit," Ehlers said.

Democrats have characterized the probe as a witch hunt, charging that Republicans sought to unfairly single out and intimidate Hispanic voters. Rep. Steny H. Hoyer of Maryland, the lone Democrat on the task force, said of the panel's recommendation, "It's never too late to do the right thing."

Sanchez celebrated surrounded by House Minority Leader Richard A. Gephardt, D-Mo., and cheering Democratic lawmakers and staff at a rally held just after the task force's decision. "I feel great," Sanchez said. "When you stand up and you fight for something and you know that you're right, justice can prevail."

Gephardt said: "Loretta won this election fair and square. There's never been a doubt in my mind."



http://articles.latimes.com/1998/feb/13/local/me-18643

In a report released Thursday, Republican members of the committee provided new details about the investigation. The details, however, cast doubt even on the 624 votes that were identified as illegally cast because of citizenship questions.

The committee had arrived at this figure by matching Orange County voter rolls with data provided by the INS. But in at least 226 of the cases, differences in addresses or signatures raised questions about whether the matches were precise.

"We categorically deny that there is substantial proof that there is anywhere near 600, 500, 400, 300, 200 improper votes," said Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (D-Md.), a member of the task force that conducted the probe. "Our analysis shows that their number is wildly inflated."

Republicans on the oversight panel said that while investigators were unable to prove there were more illegal votes than Sanchez's margin of victory, the findings were nonetheless troubling.



On top of all that, Dornan and his family actually made money from all this.

global1

(25,216 posts)
32. That Was A Long Time Ago And The Repugs At That Time Wanted To Turn The Election In Their Favor....
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 06:02 PM
Jan 2017

in a local election - from a Dem to a Repug.

This is a national election and the elected president himself is saying that 3 to 5 million voted illegally. That calls to question our very democracy if Trump could back that up with proof. The American People need to be reassured that our election system works across the board. This is not just a state issue. This involves all the states.

I believe we have a very narrow window here. The Dems need to call for this investigation ASAP before people like Lindsey Graham talk Trump into retracting his allegation. Once Trump retracts - the possibility of an investigation evaporates in the alternate fact universe.

We have an opportunity that Trump served up to us Dems and calling for an investigation puts them (the Repugs and Trump) on the spot. Like I said this could make them put up or shut up.

If we call for an investigation and Trump backs off of his allegation - we've exposed him as a liar; a conspiracy theorist; a man with a big ego that can't have anyone show him up. I believe he has shot himself in the foot with this one - and we can't let this opportunity go away.

If he doesn't back off of his allegation - the investigation has to show that 3 to 5 million people voted illegally - and I really think that is a stretch. He still looks bad. And who knows - in the process we just might be able to uncover some of the dirty tricks the Repugs use to cheat and win.

This past weekend marches - showed me that the American People are up for such an investigation.

We need to move fast though.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
65. Part of me agrees with you but I still think they would manipulate it into pushing through
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 09:47 PM
Jan 2017

even more voter suppression.

I get what you're saying about a difference being that the winner of the election is the one making the claim this time and I agree it makes a difference in some ways.

The more I think back to the Dornan/Sanchez election though, the more I see certain similarities here.

One example is the bogus claims that Dornan made then, even providing some names to the LA Times and stating these people committed voter fraud. The LA Times investigated those and found that for the most part these were people with similar names (mostly Latino) and they were eligible to vote.

With Crosscheck, they've taken the same damn idea and process, but they've now taken it across state lines to a national level and they managed to get some states to actually purge these legal voters. This despite it being illegal to purge them and despite the LA TImes having exposed it back in the 90s and publications like Rolling Stone exposing how Crosscheck is doing it now.

red dog 1

(27,742 posts)
44. + 1000
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 07:02 PM
Jan 2017

Keep on posting this..but not just on DU

You've got an outstanding idea here, and you need to share it; and WE need to share it too.


Go to other sites and post it there too.
For example:
- Thom Hartmann Show (Free to join - You can post your own blog there)
- Facebook, Twitter (140 characters only) + any other social websites you belong to


Go to ALL the progressive news websites & post it:
including the following:

- Mother Jones
- The Nation
- Truthdig
- Daily Kos
- Alternet
- Crooks & Liars
- Talking Points Memo
- Raw Story
- Think Progress
- Counterpunch
- Right Wing Watch
- OpEd News
- In These Times
- Politicucusa
- Any other progressive websites you can think of

Contact:
- Michael Moore
- Gregg Palast (He's frequently on DU)
- Rachel Maddow
- Stephanie Miller
- Mike Malloy
- Randi Rhodes
- Brad Fiedman
- Howard dean
- and anyone else you can think of, including Democratic leaders in Congress

(Use Google searches to get website contact info)


WE ALL should contact these websites, as well as other progressive websites as well, and re-post global1's reply to this thread, and we need to strike NOW, while "the coals are hot"

Trump has opened a can of worms here, and we need to act NOW!...ALL OF US!

JudyM

(29,176 posts)
61. I'm going to call all my congresscritters to press for this. Hopefully others will, as well.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 08:47 PM
Jan 2017

If anyone knows how to get a petition going, this would be the time!

Cracklin Charlie

(12,904 posts)
8. I thought KKKobach's Crosscheck program...
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 04:39 PM
Jan 2017

Was there to make sure that didn't happen?

Is Trump saying that all the states that used/purchased the software, got tricked into buying something that didn't work?

He must be hearing lots of scuttle about how they purloined the election...he's out talking about it every day.

Amaryllis

(9,524 posts)
42. Maybe Trump heard just enough from Kobach that he picked up the idea of millions of illegal votes.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 06:59 PM
Jan 2017

I've often wondered if that is where he got the idea. Kobach could justify Crosscheck by spouting that nonsense.

Problem is the alt right media will report Trump's statement as truth and his base will believe it, justifying more Crosscheck and rigid voter ID laws, etc.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
48. They know Crosscheck is about purging likely Democratic voters.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 07:23 PM
Jan 2017

I like the way you turned his talking points back against him.
Nicely done.



We need more of that, along with more of the great investigative reporting like Rolling Stones expose of Crosscheck.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/the-gops-stealth-war-against-voters-w435890

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
11. brava suffragette
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 04:49 PM
Jan 2017

It's the reality show motto. Too many seem to lap up the gruel served by those who seek to dominate them.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
59. Yes, too many look at the headline and not below it. At least some of the headlines on this
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 08:34 PM
Jan 2017

Also point out it's not true.

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
62. Let me be clear
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 08:58 PM
Jan 2017

with my strength and weakness. I believe in the Republic on which we stand, for better or worse.
The "worse" is not acceptable too me. Between a rock and and a hard place?

Response to suffragette (Original post)

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
40. Very well stated. Did you see Padilla's response. Also well put.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 06:54 PM
Jan 2017

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/white-house-doubles-down-trump-s-debunked-illegal-voter-claim-n711526

Prior to Spicer's briefing, California Secretary of State Alex Padilla warned in a statement to NBC News that Trump "is dangerously attacking the legitimacy of free and fair elections and the foundation of our democracy" with his claim.

"These are not 'alternative facts.' They are corrosive lies without any evidence. Even leaders in the President's own party agree there is no evidence to support his claims since they were irresponsibly made back in November," Padilla said.

"Rather than continue to deliberately deceive the American people about his nearly 3 million vote loss, the President should focus on addressing the substantiated threats reported by our intelligence community."

Rene

(1,183 posts)
14. here's an explanation for how vote tally programming/results were stolen
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 05:03 PM
Jan 2017

Distributed batch job execution that runs programs on servers are usually set up with a primary and a secondary server....serverA and ServerB......per url addresses.
Same program/script names are usually on both servers....but I believe serverB's pgm is rigged. Call it scriptZ
A Virtual server name is created....say ABC...both servers are defined to ABC definition.
Officials are checking/testing scriptZ on ServerA and don't even know there's a 'back door'.
A 'switch' process script is written and job created for it.
99% of the time the application batch is running on ServerA (primary)... The switch job/script is executed and now the ABC virtual name references ServerB and the script runs there instead....but the scriptZ on ServerB can have different programming that flips vote counts.
Anyone in IT, working with scheduling/running batch on distributed servers can understand how the originally intended ServerA/scriptZ has been compromised and is running on ServerB...could be miles away. Run that 'switch job' again and the files sent back, with flipped votes finishes up running on ServerA. Anyone even staring at the screen cannot see what happened 'behind the scene' that executed elsewhere and reverted back. You'd have to examine logs..follow url's.

triron

(21,981 posts)
16. Well here's an analysis done by Ron Baiman Ph. D.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 05:13 PM
Jan 2017

that is consistent to your proposal. Except author blames it on Republican 'vote rigging' . Except their 'vote rigging' this time went further.

http://www.cpegonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Unexplained-Patterns-in-2016-and-Earlier-U.S.-Elections.pdf

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
15. Not really
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 05:05 PM
Jan 2017

And suggesting that it is plays right into Trump's hands. He wants people to hate immigrants and one way to stimulate that is to suggest they are stealing elections. It also increases support for more voting barriers.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
19. I'm not saying ignore it. It needs to be countered by noting that voter suppression is a far
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 05:26 PM
Jan 2017

More serious and verifiable problem.

I agree with the points you make. See my #17 post above about the Sanchez/Dornan election.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
22. It inadvertantly backs Trumps accusations to declare fraud without ample evidence
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 05:35 PM
Jan 2017

I prefer to focus on the legally implemented barriers and the fact that they are using the claim to put up more of them. If we make the claim of fraud, why would we oppose more barriers?
I am already hearing it from liberals. If we maintain this position and it gains public traction the lie will have worked. Trump's mission accomplished.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
25. I feel like we're talking past each other when we really agree, at least mostly.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 05:42 PM
Jan 2017

I prefer to focus on barriers and how they use their claim to put up more as well.

That is a huge part of how they manipulate elections, they prevent people from exercising their legal right to vote.


triron

(21,981 posts)
28. Greg has part of the answer.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 05:46 PM
Jan 2017

The rest was subterfuge by elements of the FBI and Putin directed Russian hacking including electoral corruption on and possibly before election day.

IronLionZion

(45,380 posts)
27. They'll use it to justify more purging and restrictions
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 05:42 PM
Jan 2017

and reduce polling places even more. They don't like where the demographics in this country is going and they would like to keep their power.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
60. They've already been doing so much of this. Now they're prepping to kick into higher gear.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 08:37 PM
Jan 2017

So damn sick of it.


Mc Mike

(9,111 posts)
73. They're already miserably sucky human beings, when they get emboldened they're even worse.
Wed Jan 25, 2017, 07:56 AM
Jan 2017

Guess we'll have to work on shortening the leash of the junkyard dog that is the repug party, so they run out of chain as they charge toward their goal of dictatorship.

Good to see you, suff.

C_U_L8R

(44,976 posts)
29. Trumped the shark
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 05:48 PM
Jan 2017

The BLOTUS has overstepped with delusional conspiracy bullshit
and yes there need to be a thorough investigation. Either the
world's greatest election crime has been committed (without a
result for Trump's supposed conspirators, mind you) OR....
Trump is absofuckinlutely crazyass nuts and unfit for office.
Let the proceedings begin!!

Oldtimeralso

(1,935 posts)
35. I Think that is not all
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 06:19 PM
Jan 2017

I think that the objective of this is a national registry for voters.
This, of course, leads to a national registration of all citizens.

Can you say "Show me your papers."?

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
63. Yes, they've done it in the past and now are trying to do it on an even larger scale.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 09:09 PM
Jan 2017

And they're trying to divert away from the allegations about Russian interference as well.

Vinca

(50,233 posts)
38. I wonder if there is any way at all an ordinary citizen could sue for a new election based upon
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 06:49 PM
Jan 2017

Der Fuhrer's own statements. It seems if millions of people voted illegally, the election should be voided.

Amaryllis

(9,524 posts)
43. It also justifies rigid voter ID laws and Crosscheck type operations. Have to prevent all those
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 07:02 PM
Jan 2017

immigrants and dead people from voting.

Bear Creek

(883 posts)
46. News Headlines
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 07:20 PM
Jan 2017

The network news outlets need to watch how they cover trump. They are helping the propaganda by how they word the head lines. Headline needs to be Trump Lies about voter fraud. Instead they had Trump says there was voter fraud. Most people dont read past the headline and when they see it a number of times will take it be gospel. They dont teach vetting and critical thinking anymore?
This must have been what got them stirred up at work. They were in a tizzy that if they have to pay for a drivers license that everyone can pay to be able to vote. And that ID needs to be on you at all times and should show it on demand. I guess they dont understand that driving is a privilege and voting is a right.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
64. Great post about how they engineer this to add more voter repression.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 09:18 PM
Jan 2017

And how some people get sucked right into it.

We need more civics education. Of course, with Trump that won't happen.

Ohioboy

(3,237 posts)
49. Trump needs to believe certain lies for the sake of his ego.
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 07:25 PM
Jan 2017

He can't stand the fact that he didn't win the popular vote. It bugs him so much he needs his press secretary to bring up voter fraud as an explanation. It also bugs him that Obama's inauguration was attended by more people than his. Spicer needs to keep his fragile boss happy.

meadowlander

(4,386 posts)
53. Let's call for a full, independant audit of the election then
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 07:37 PM
Jan 2017

and see what Trump's excuse is for not supporting it.

 

TrekLuver

(2,573 posts)
55. The thing is he didn't really need to change the conversation because NOBODY but himself
Tue Jan 24, 2017, 07:58 PM
Jan 2017

brought it up. No No...there is something seriously wrong with him. Even my Trashpot loving co worker is doing eye brow raising.

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