Could you imagine if the Soviet Union demanded we pay for the Berlin Wall ?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Neither could I.

BTW, does it bother you as much as me that Trump is bullying a much weaker nation?

[yallerdawg]

1. One prominent Mexican has responded.

Link to tweet

[braddy]

2. Do you know what the Berlin wall was? It wasn't like your fence, it was a prison wall to enslave

people, it wasn't a border to block outsiders. Using the Berlin wall as an argument against the border, doesn't make any sense at all and looks silly to people who remember the USSR.

As an army and NATO veteran, I really dislike such ignorance on the Berlin wall.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. The Berlin Wall was built to keep people in. Trump's Wall is to keep people out.

Ill will is the basis for both walls and is the thread that binds the two together.

[braddy]

4. There is a huge difference between a border wall, and a prison wall, you can make your case for

ending borders without trying to conceal that the Berlin wall was about enslaving the german people and other enslaved peoples in eastern Europe.

Border fences are common, but I can't think of another example of a Berlin wall.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. I do not believe in open borders. It is the symbolism of The Wall that offends me.

Kruschev built a war to keep people in. Trump built a wall to keep people out. I actually have more sympathy for the former because I know he was the leader of a deeply flawed system.

And he is bullying the Mexicans to pay for it.

[braddy]

6. I didn't have sympathy for the Soviet empire when I was helping to protect the non occupied

Europeans, while we prayed for the future of those enslaved behind it. Trump hasn't built a wall yet, but he is saying that he will expand on the 700 miles of the wall that has been built during the last decade, but that has nothing to do with the Berlin prison wall.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Trump's Wall is every bit as morally odious as Kruschev's Wall.

Trump's Wall is every bit as morally odious as Kruschev's Wall. I fail to see how anybody who holds themselves out as a progressive can demur from that sentiment. And the fact we would try to bully an infinitely weaker economic, political and militarily nation to pay for it only compounds the damage.

Since we are talking about walls:

We welcome change and openness; for we believe that freedom and security go together, that the advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause of world peace. There is one sign the Soviets can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace. General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization, come here to this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!

-Ronald Reagan

"I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace, a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity, and if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it and see it still."

-Ronald Reagan

[braddy]

8. You clearly don't understand the Berlin wall, but most people do, so it isn't an effective argument.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. The Berlin Wall was built to keep East Germans from fleeing to freedom.

The Trump Wall is built to keep people out. Both walls are morally odious as Ronald Reagan pointed out. I can't believe we are discussing the merits and demerits of Trump's wall on a progressive board:

"When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people... And we will build a great wall and Mexico will pay for it one hundred percent."

-Donald Trump

What's next ? Discussing which regime was worse: the Batista regime in Cuba or the Marcos regime in the Philippines,

The Wall is an affront to liberal democratic values

[MarvinGardens]

10. So the Berlin Wall would have been OK if the West Germans had built it?

If West Germans had built the wall to keep out the East Germans, it would have been acceptable? Is the direction of travel what makes a wall morally acceptable or not?

[braddy]

11. It wasn't a border, it was a prison wall.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Trump's Wall is every bit as antithetical to liberal democratic values as Kruschev's Wall

At the risk of committing an Argumentum ad populum logical fallacy almost everybody here sees it but you.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8536998

[MarvinGardens]

16. We agree on that, but not my question.

Let me ask the question a different way. Suppose that history had played out a bit differently. In this scenario, the East Bloc was still Communist, but the West feared the people escaping Communism rather than welcomed them. Suppose in this scenario, the West built all the physical fortifications of the Iron Curtain to keep the refugees out, and gave very few of them a legal path for entry. In such a scenario, the West is motivated to keep people out, though the effect on the refugees is similar.

In this case, is the wall acceptable, and is the physical component of the Iron Curtain acceptable, because of the different motivation for building it?

[uponit7771]

13. The intent behind both of them are horrible

[braddy]

14. Which has nothing to do with how ridiculous it is to pretend they are the same thing, people know

better, it is a silly argument that discredits the speaker. This obsession with saying that we are building the Berlin wall II, is bizarre, but if you guys want to go around saying it, then go ahead, but you just have intelligent people shaking their heads.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Moving the goal posts.

"...This obsession with saying that we are building the Berlin wall II, is bizarre, but if you guys want to go around saying it, then go ahead, but you just have intelligent people shaking their heads."

-braddy

Nobody is saying the Walls are identical. What intelligent and progressive posters are saying is both walls are antithetical to liberal democratic values. What part of that don't you understand?

We welcome change and openness; for we believe that freedom and security go together, that the advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause of world peace. There is one sign the Soviets can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace. General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization, come here to this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!

-Ronald Reagan

"I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace, a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity, and if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it and see it still."

-Ronald Reagan

Even Ronald Reagan got it; walls to keep people in and indiscriminately keep people out are bad. You should.