The beginning of the end?

[AlexSFCA]

Last edited Fri Feb 3, 2017, 11:07 AM - Edit history (11)

This is my first thread. It is a long thread but I am asking you to please read it.

I have absolutely no doubt we are witnessing the beginning of the end of our democracy and I have no idea if and how it can be stopped.

I am saying this as someone who have lived through Soviet Union, through the fall of Soviet Union and a birth of a democracy, and through the end of a democracy. I have lived in a deep red southern state, I live in deep blue California.

While it is true that numerous right wing radios, fox news and right wing conspiracy websites have been conditioning the public for years, Trump was not possible before Citizens United ruling. The decision had allowed Putin's machine to pump unlimited amount of dark money to weaken our country. We were not at all prepared for this.

He did the same for Brexit and now is agressively financing Le Pen in France and Wilders in Netherlands. They will stop at nothing to 'elect' Le Pen and both will withdraw from EU. They are using the same technique of fake news, propaganda, gaslighting, etc. In a few short years we will no longer have EU, NATO and UN.

Germany is one of his bigger targets trying to destroy Merkel. But, somehow, I have a slight beacon of hope that Germany may withstand this dangerous populist wave because of its unique history. If true, she will become the leader of the free world because there is no doubt, the war is coming. Even Gorbachev broke his silence yesterday warning us.

Going back to Trump, which is really a coordinated effort with Bannon and Flynn. They are following Alexander Dugin playbook (Putin's political advisor) but also Hitler's philosophy that Trump knows by heart.

1. Delegitimize independent press
2. Delegitimize integrity of election results
3. Deligitimize courts

Both are being aggressively worked on. On this forum, I am seeing folks obsessing over Trump's bizzare behavior claiming the largest inauguration crowd and voter fraud. Unfortunatey, it is not necessarily his beliefs, but intentional gaslighting. Voter fraud accusation is classic and is needed to selectively supress voting rights but also to gain access to voting machines by federal government ('investigation'). They will 'find' fraud, don't worry.

What you all have to understand is that once Attorney General, Jeff Sessions is confirmed, he will stop enforcing civil liberties and not even SC can stop him cause they don't have enforcement capabilities. This is needed to proceed with mass deportations and, more importabtly, quick deportations (Law and Order). This is coming any day now.

You could not be more naive if you think there will be fair elections in 2018 - the world will be different.

Some of you like to calm themselves down by thinking that we still have SC and even with Scalia replacement it is still ok. Think again. Trump has his CIA, NSA, FBI, AG, etc. at his disposal. They will 'find' a clean way to remove Ginsburg ("died of natural causes&quot .

If you think we are golden in California, think again. California is #1 enemy of the new administration. This is a war on 'liberalism'. Do not take for granted that our state is solidly blue. The lines between blue and red are being deliberately blurred and a social unrest may fundamentally change the political climate leading to brutal gubernatorial campaign next year. I expect a populist challenger to Newsom with broad appeal, perharps even 'Independent' since we have open primaries.

They will NOT allow California to be an example of success.

All mainstream media is owned by 24 corporations. Expect upcoming mergers, changing CEOs, acquisitions by billionaires. It will be under control sooner than you think.

And finally, due to an extreme social unrest in the country and a possible war abroad; the administration will push very hard for traditional values (Judeo-Christian). That is when Roe v Wade followed by same-sex marriage rulings will be overturned. They will not allow those laws to exist at federal level.

I would also add that immigration and Islamophobia are merely wedge issues - means to an end. Immigration enforcement (vs. reform) attracts most conservatives and some independents. While islamophobia is used to attract many liberals, including gays, to further divide and conquer. Do not take the bait.

To conclude, we are currently in transition from a liberal democracy to an authoritarian oligarchy and I don't know if and how we can stop it.

[Generator]

1. Well he can try

But he's gonna have to kill a lot of people. We aren't backing down.

[geek tragedy]

2. fight back hard, fight back smart

don't abandon the battlefield out of despair

[GliderGuider]

5. You've got to have weapons to fight back.

Right now the main weapon in play on our side is an awakening media. The other one we need is a unified body of Congresscritters. Beyond that, well, Russia has already seized the high ground so it's going to be a long uphill battle with a lot of casualties. Victory is remote, at best.

[geek tragedy]

6. our biggest weapon is that the Republicans will own everything bad that happens

under Trump.

[GliderGuider]

9. That and $5.00 will buy you a latte.

As I said, a lot of people here aren't going to get what our good friend has written.

[AlexSFCA]

10. bingo

that's my fear, very few people really understood what I wrote and none of the politicians in power. I am glad there are some on DU that get it, I came to the right place.

[GliderGuider]

12. I've been working out the scenario for the last couple of weeks.

It has been slow going, but as I connected the dots, I could suddenly see an image of the lion hiding in the grass. You nailed it.

[riderinthestorm]

118. I sincerely doubt DU is the right place for your excellent analysis

There are very few here willing to really understand what's happening.

Thank you tho for this. I get it. Paul has been singing this song for a few days now. We ignore it at our peril.

Big K&R

[GliderGuider]

130. The "Paul" in question being yours truly.

Paul Chefurka. I'm also singing the song loud and clear on FB.

[IamFortunesFool]

132. There are those that do see the writing on the wall...

And as you so stated, the only question is can it be stopped. Unfortunately, I think not. This is a global problem that has been in the works (in current draconian form) for over 100 years...in earnest since the advent of modern central banking. The same old motives for power and control that civilization has always fell victim to are at work here, again. As our global population balloons out of control it is the economic, religious, and political authorities that conspire to set us against each other in their own jostling for terrestrial immortality.... ever more demand is placed on increasingly depleted natural resources, and as the inevitable social violence follows, our civilization will collapse and our species will face a genetic bottleneck. We will emerge changed, if we emerge at all. We are watching the swan song of the world as we know it. It is a closed system, and there is too much entropy....

[cilla4progress]

176. Nothing less than

The undoing of the Enlightenment, really.

[IamFortunesFool]

182. It is so frustrating to live in an age...

...in which we can hold the sum of human knowledge in our hand, and yet we are ruled by belief systems and superstitious tendency from the stone age. I understand that our biological evolution is being far outpaced by our psychological adaptations and evolution, but it is maddening all the same. Can you imagine a world where we embraced the implications of our science and technology? Where we could appreciate how catalytic and exponential our vast wealth of exosomatic knowledge is and what it means to us as a species both historically and for our future?

[pangaia]

203. Do you think Schumer gets it? And a few others?

[AlexSFCA]

205. no way

Shumer is very biased by his former friendship with trump so I doubt he truly sees that trump can be absolute evil under Bannon.

I seriously don't know who in the senate would be the most knowledgable. Maybe Jeff Merkley?

Definately not mccain or graham - they are not very bright people, operate in the bubble. My house representative is part of the house intelligence committee and she knows way more than I expected in terms of the new global order and putin's influence (I participated in town hall conference).

Honestly, the most knowledgeable people about this are right wingers. E.g., Glenn Beck has written and said quite a bit about dugin, alt right, etc.

Pelosi?? Give me a break. Maybe Tim Ryan?

[pangaia]

206. Thanks..and for your post

I've taken almost all cash out of banks, and brokerage account. And Ira in t-bills..
Not much else I can do there....

[geek tragedy]

13. I heard similar despair after 2004.

The US is too decentralized and Trump is too incompetent to pull off a totalitarianization within 16 months.

[GliderGuider]

14. This isn't necessarily about imposing a totalitarian state.

This is about destroying the state. Bannon inadvertently made it clear in an interview that he is a Leninist, and this is his goal. The state is to be destroyed, and the citizens will do the work.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/22/steve-bannon-trump-s-top-guy-told-me-he-was-a-leninist.html

[geek tragedy]

23. there are 50 states. Much easier to destroy an empire

than a federalist republic.

[bdamomma]

157. So bannon is the mastermind of our demise?

Are we supposed to bring this to the attention of our congress people?? or are we accept this as our fate?

Tell me or are we lost sheep on this?

[pangaia]

207. But trump is just the wooden mouthpiece, in my view.

[riderinthestorm]

117. Agreed 100%nt

[pangaia]

202. I sure get it.. got it quite a while ago....

[Nitram]

3. Yes, it looks bad. No, the sky is not falling.

It will not be pleasant, but we will survive, and US democracy will, too.

[FSogol]

7. +1 True. Time to stand up for what we belieive in, not play Chicken Little. n/t

[GliderGuider]

8. Well, I for one think you are dead wrong.

This is a civilization-level war - a 4GW version of WWIII. And the US has already lost the main engagement.

IMNSHO.

[ecstatic]

139. What evidence do you have? We've been going down this road for years

All norms have been violated. Anything goes.

[pangaia]

208. At some point you reach the end of the road..and it is a dead end.

Like flying into an ever narrowing canyon.

[starshine00]

161. I so hope you are right

this OP is one of the most depressing I have ever seen. Ugh.

[GliderGuider]

4. Way to go! What a perfect analysis!

How the hell did you get so clued in? Dugin, even! I think a bunch of people here are going to be impressed, and a lot of people aren't going to get it.

Here's my strongly related post from this morning:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028546307

[AlexSFCA]

20. thank you

I have a very unique life experience being (1st gen) Russian American and lived through critical changes and in critical places. On top of it, I am a minority which amplified my sense of bias and injustice awareness. I've been up to date on hate groups for many years following SPLC, and russian civil rights organizations. I have been reading (researching) opposition propaganda websites for years (both US and Russin) to truly understand what is being developed here. The hate is very powerful and it is sold to many innocent people as doing the right thing (Judeo-Christian values).

You seem to be the only one who understood what I wrote. See naive and clueless responses from other DUers.

I connected the dots after the election but not until a few days ago when it hit me as to why I am seeing things in a society, no one else seem to notice. And then my unique life experience came to mind which positioned me in a perfect place and time.

What is happening is 100% real. It is so outrageous that most peoples minds can not possibly take it in until much later. The worst times ahead in human history is possible and it is on auto-pilot.

[GliderGuider]

25. I have the same sense of being alone with this knowledge.

Most people here can only see it as a bad political outcome. I do have some friends on FB who seem to get it (I cross-post all my stuff to my FB page).

It wasn't until somebody on here alerted me to Dugin that I finally understood what I was looking at.

I've been a dot-connector in a number of different fields for the last dozen years, so I guess I was primed for this. Interestingly, I have a Ukrainian heritage, two generations back. I saw a bit of the Prague Spring and drove through Ukraine and Russia in 1968 just as they went into Czechoslovakia. I've always had a low opinion of them, but a healthy respect for them all the same. When Litvenenko was poisoned I really started paying attention.

[AlexSFCA]

29. great

Understanding Dugin is key because Bannon is highly influenced by him. It is really a mix of Dugin and Hitler for both strategy and end goal.

Please everyone on DU learn about Alexander Dugin - he is Putin's Bannon (strategist). As I said most peoples mind won't be able to take in what is truly happening. Most americans have never ever experienced anything close to it - they have no tools to comprehend. That is the purpose of thread to spread awarness and if at least a few people here are able to see the reality then maybe they'll find ways to simplify it for the masses. The global populism movement is now on auto pilot and not even Bannon can predict the outcome. This has. ever happened to such a diverse country as US.

Trump may be ill but he is not more ill than Hitler!

[GliderGuider]

33. Well, Bannon is a Leninist whose main goal is to destroy the state.

When that is the goal, you can tolerate a lot of variability in the actual outcome. It's not anywhere near as complicated as trying to install a dictator.

Have you seen this Bannon interview?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/08/22/steve-bannon-trump-s-top-guy-told-me-he-was-a-leninist.html

[AlexSFCA]

41. yes

I have read probably just about every little thing about Bannon.

You have to understand that while Bannon would be ok to destroy the governement, he is, in the meantime, trying to achieve the following:

To reverse the course of history and maintain majority white christian population in the US. This will be painful and may result in full destruction and he is ok with that too but worth a try. He is at war with 'liberalism' and he'd rather world to end than continue like this.

To achieve this goal, it is very critical for the new administration to remove as many (unauthorized) immigrants from the country as possible and quickly.


Changes to (legal) immigration are coming soon. Immigration from non-white countires will be reduced to bare minimum.

California is a main battleground and for a reason. Bannon actually likes it or I mean used to like it when it was 'great'. He has home in LA.

[GliderGuider]

43. Thanks. You articulate Bannon's goals very clearly.

And I bet you're pretty sure it was Flynn who shopped those two poor SOBs in Russia?
The Seth Rich murder?

It's a horrible, horrible pattern.

[AlexSFCA]

48. haha

that's the least of our problems, we are eyeing insanity in California with massive ICE raids which will tear up our communities apart. They are using our own weapon ('identity politics') against us - divide and conquer. Only in a more powerful way with no holding back. Dear DUs, please abandon your political correctness and identity politics starting right now if not aready.

We have never faced anything like this. Do mot take anything for granted. A social unrest as a result of ICE raids or serious 'accident' blamed on muslims or immigrants will fundamentally change the political landscape in the entire state. Please do not take for granted that our state is blue in 2018 brutal gubernatorial election. Billionaire and alt-right financier Peter Thiel is involved with the help of the entire federal government against our state. People, families will prioritize public safety!

[GliderGuider]

50. You're a real ray of sunshine, aren't you?

But you're completely right.

[TeddyBear 1]

85. thank you

most interesting read

[cilla4progress]

177. Following your conversation

Here and I have followed Paul before, including PM'ing hIm. I feel intuitively you both may be right. I don't know if I'm a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist at heart, or maybe it's because I also have Russian blood coursing through my veins...but I hear you, I'm not certain I belive you are correct but it is a definite possibility in my mind. You terrify me.

[onlyadream]

187. Bannon wants to install a Theocracy

One Christian nation so we can have a religious war against Islam.

[GliderGuider]

188. Yup! His goal is a moral/ethnic cleansing of the USA.

The associated violence suits Putin's goal as well, which is the removal of the USA as a world power.

[pangaia]

209. You're the one who convinced me.

[manicraven]

64. This is hogwash. Trump is a lifelong narcissist/psychopath. That's the #1 issue right now.

I do not believe the GOP is going to do Putin's bidding either. Are they out of control? Sure. They've won big, but overall they're no friend to Putin.

How do we know you aren't a Russian troll sent here to panic us? In any case, the USA is not Russia.

[AlexSFCA]

71. optimism

I envy your optimism and your belief in the republican party. I have been posting here for a while so obvously I am not a troll - please do a search before throwing those words.

[pangaia]

210. Alex, r u a Russian troll? LOL.

Thanks for all your posts. As depressing as they may be.

[onlyadream]

186. Yes, Trump is but it's Bannon who has his ear.

Trump is the celebrity that is fronting this. I believe the OP is on to something (something terrible). I can see all the chess pieces being put into place for something big. It's frightening.

[LiberalLoner]

74. I understand perfectly what you wrote and I agree. The only thing I would add

Is that I think another goal is to decrease the population worldwide in a hurry. Cull the herd.

I hope we will be able to fight and win. But I fear the worst.

[AlexSFCA]

78. correct

And I don't need to tell you which people are to be wiped out. They will stop at nothing. The hate of this movement is so deep, it is intoxicating to them inducing animalistic instincts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. A Drumpf like candidate has no chance here in Cali .

It was Hillary's best state. And before somebody brings up Arnold they couldn't be more different.

[Caliman73]

37. That is not the point

If you look at the larger and longer term strategy as discussed by Alex and GliderGuider, they are talking about Alexander Dugin, who is a sociologist in Russia, who in the late 1990's wrote a book on Russia's place in the geopolitical world. He headed the New Bolshevik movement and when Putin became president, his status grew. He is seen as a top strategist in the Kremlin.

Dugin talks about a Eurasian empire and a method by which Russia begins to reestablish its power over all of Europe through attacks on liberalism and America as it's number one sponsor in the world. Dugin discusses destabilizing the European continent then reestablishing ties through Franco-German Alliances, and a Berlin-Moscow Axis. The main goal is to isolate then defeat the US, and not in a military sense but through the establishment of a new politics based on European identity (read Russian identity).

It sounds conspiratorial and weird but there is a lot going on that points to this process occurring now.

California is a large, prosperous state in the Union, but that will not protect us if this ideology remains effective in infiltrating the nation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. What is China going to be doing while all this going on ?

[Caliman73]

42. Being that there has been talk about engaging in a trade war with China...

China has its own problems and there is no love lost between China and Russia, but I am not sure what you are asking. Are you implying that China will be this White Knight and join with us to battle this out with Russia? Why would they. 1. They are facing serious crises in resources, health, and economy. 2. They may be thinking that it is better to try to wait out any hsotilities and pick off weaker geopolitical adversaries.

China is not our enemy, but they are certainly not our friend either.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. China isn't going to sit on its hands while Russia tries to make the world lily white.

[AlexSFCA]

93. not much

I think China is not part of it, they are already a nationalist country. They may contain China from reaching its superpower but I think not in a short term. I didn't bring China into this convo because it will only complicate things and will distract us.

China is not liberal and not really a threat to 'Judeo-Christian' values. Many chinese are christian here.

[Phoenix61]

15. Nope!

We are not Russia. We have been a democracy since the beginning. We have been practicing it a long time. They said women would never get the right to vote, then they did. They said African-Americans would never get equality, then they did. I understand we are still working on that and have a way to go. They said same sex marriage would never be legal, until it was. We have fought for these freedoms before and we will fight for them again and again and again... We are not the government or the institutions we created to make it work, WE are the democracy and we are not going anywhere.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Trump has authoritarian instincts but I have faith our institutions hold.

BTW. the CIA is not the FBI, the former has a lot of folks from the center and left like Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame.

[AlexSFCA]

24. I beg you

Please I beg you to educate yourself on Alexander Dugin and Bannon (separately and together), alt right (being rebranded the new right), Flynn, Manafort, opposition propganda websites, gaslighting and in connection with brexit, Le Pen being consulted by Bannon - those the very minimum pre-requisities to understand it. We on DU should be ahead of the game but sadly...

[Phoenix61]

27. That doesn't change a single thing I wrote

Russia couldn't keep a fledgling democracy going. To suggest that we are in the same situation is ludicrous. Does that mean we can sit on our tails and do nothing? Absolutely not. You seem to feel it's a done deal and there is nothing we can do except roll over. I know you are wrong.

[AlexSFCA]

32. this

and that is why your mind is not able to take it in. You have not developed tools to comprehend what is going on. You know it is not normal but can't quite put a finger on it.

No one is denying that US is not Russia. What you have learned througout your life is that our democracy is strong. This has changed because of Citizens United (Bannon was heavily involed in that too). Our democracy has not been prepared for post- CU period. You are witnessing transition from libera democracy to oligarchy. The wealth will be transfered to the top with acceleration. Trickle down on steroids - this will happen very quickly.

You have an obsolete belief that our Constitution will protect us. Newsflsh: our constitution is only as good as a judge who interprets it. Trump will be appointing over 100 federal judges across the entire country fundamentally changing legal landscape in the US - most cases never reach SC.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. The next governor of California will be pro gay rights, pro immigration, and pro health care for all

If you think we are golden in California, think again. California is #1 enemy of the new administration. This is a war on 'liberalism'. Do not take for granted that our state is solidly blue. The lines between blue and read are being deliberately blurred and a social unrest may fundamentally change the political climate leading to brutal gubernatorial campaign next year. I expect a populist challenger to Newsom with broad appeal, perharps even 'Independent' since we have open primaries.

They will NOT allow California to be an example of success.

The next governor of California will be pro gay rights, pro immigration, and pro health care for all.

[Phoenix61]

45. Really? You know my mind? You know what I've learned?

You know what I believe? Obviously no reason to discuss it then since you already know.

[mythology]

155. Yes, everybody who disagrees with you is blind and foolish

Ignatius Reilly isn't a role model.

[AlexSFCA]

156. fair

please provide your account of what's happening. And please read the most recent news - Trump just appointed Bannon to National Security Council, right after he spoke with putin on the phone.

[GliderGuider]

26. I second what AlexSFCA said just now, word for word.

It is utterly infuriating that people on DU can't se what's going on, but to be fair it does require quite a bit of background reading outside the boundaries of American politics. Dugin, Bannon, Flynn, Manafort, propaganda, cyberwarfare, 4GW. This is WWIII.

[AlexSFCA]

35. there is more

Unfortunately, there is more. I want you all to digest what is written first but I'll give you a preview.

This administration is de facto provoking a military conflict with Islam countries. The US embassy move to Jerusalem is strategic. I will formulate this development for you later because it is not the highest priority at the momeny.

[GliderGuider]

38. Yes, I figured that Jerusalem was no spur-of-the-moment decision.

A war with Islamic countries makes a lot of sense - more than a war with China. I look forward to reading your thoughts. Could you send me DU mail to alert me when you put up your OPs?

[riderinthestorm]

119. Yes please send me a pm as well. nt

[elehhhhna]

190. Me too please. I see exactly what you're describing. You've outlined it very thoughtfully.

Once you look at it, it's obvious.

[hedda_foil]

221. Please pm me too. I'm late to your OP but completely ... and unfortunately ... agree.

Right down to the idea of mass eugenics as population control measure with the side effect of making Europe and the U.S.white again or vice versa. Same goal, same result. It's horrifyingly brilliant and brilliantly horrific.

[WiffenPoof]

16. Welcome to DU. NT

[workinclasszero]

17. I agree that Russia is behind Trump and the secret support of fascist movements in Europe

and the fascist republican party here.

NATO is dead and the British Prime Minister here today is a world class fool if she believes any promises from Trump about supporting NATO, what a joke!

The UN is next.

Putin is going to rule the entire European continent by hegemony or worse. The western democratic alliance is to weak and divided to stop him.

It looks like the greatest generation only stopped fascism for 70 years or so. It reins supreme in Russia and China now, Hitler would be proud I suppose.

And now its our turn.

[Initech]

21. And crippling the US is part of his plot.

Financing a totalitarian dictator who's goal is to severely cripple the United States government is part of his strategy. We must stop him at all costs. We cannot let him get to the UN or the EU, or its' over.

[workinclasszero]

28. Yes it is

President Trump exists to weaken NATO for his benefactor/money man/boss Vladimir Putin.

The EU is a dead man walking IMO.

Brexit was the first blow, now Trump will fatally weaken NATO and finish them off for Putin.

[bdamomma]

158. No one will stand for

the demise of both the UN or NATO, will anyone come to their defense? So Putin will be the main winner here of winner takes all?? I do not see the American people rolling over? or will tRump exacerbate a conflict with his big fucking mouth? Ok Bannon is the manipulator here he is pulling the ropes.

So are we supposed to accept this fate? Last night Bannon was working feverishly to get his hard on to ban refugees from coming from 7 countries and it was thwarted by justice. Bannon and Putin from the articles posted here on DU they are not BF. This is chilling and articles posted here are appreciated.

So again are we supposed to share this information or accept that this is our demise??

[workinclasszero]

163. Who will stop Trump?

The only way to stop him is impeachment. The would have to come from the hardcore right wing controlled House of Reps.

Democrats cannot do a damn thing about it. Democracy died the second that the republican party gained total control of all three branches of the US Federal government.

So now all we can do is wait for the fucking republicans to do the right thing.

Its going to be a loooooooong wait!

[AlexSFCA]

65. how

Last edited Sun Jan 29, 2017, 09:47 AM - Edit history (1)

that is the main question? how can we stop the entire administration? I have a bad feeling that Paul Ryan is also being corrupted by this ideology to be part of oligarchy (we are talking billions). The power and money are intoxicating to them.

I do sincerely beleive that McCain and Graham are clean. We will need republicans. I know McMullin is forming a bipartisan movement against Trump. This is the first good idea i heard so far.

[Initech]

19. Vladimir Putin is a mad man.

I support nothing less than a full embargo of Russia if / when we get this madness sorted out, and he is trying to take over the world by financing extreme far-right campaigns. He is the enemy of the free world and he must be stopped at all costs.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. Drumpf is a mad man. Putin is a cold as ice calculator.

[workinclasszero]

62. Putin is an evil genius

And a student of Sun Tzu it seems.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. Sun Tzu

This quote is playing out in front of our own eyes at this moment in time.

With Strongman Putin at the helm, Mother Russia will be the most powerful nation in the world by the time Trump weakens America and NATO enough in the next four years.

[AlexSFCA]

53. good luck

Shortly, you will be witnessing the removal of all sanctions against russia to form a strategic alliance against Islam.

[workinclasszero]

200. I believe that you are right

Bannon in particular wants a 'holy war' with Muslims. No way this war will be fought without nuclear weapons being used.

Maybe China will join in with Muslim countries just to wipe Trump and Bannon off the face of the earth, who knows.

I guess we should start digging fallout shelters but I live in a area that would be heavily targeted so...

The only lucky people in a major nuclear war are the dead anyway.

[shraby]

30. How about we make it the end of the beginning? There are droves of people in the streets,

the media is waking up to the danger, another election is just around the bend, a good majority knows what putin is all about and also what trump is doing.

I call it the end of the beginning. Bannon is about to be trounced, outed and kicked to the ground.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. Drumpf sucks but this "woe is me" stuff sucks more.

[Phoenix61]

46. Agreed!

[WePurrsevere]

57. Agreed. "Woe is me" is a trap...

that can suck you in, demoralize and incapacitate you.

We can't allow ourselves to be that way. We need to be angry and determined in order to fight and fight we MUST.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. There are more of us than there are Deplorables.

And though we desire peace we will fight if necessary and we will fight effectively and to win.

[WePurrsevere]

73. I totally agree. nt

[AlexSFCA]

80. yes

Yes it is true that there are more of us than them (at least for now). But we are not equal in power. I don't need to tell you what that may mean.

[bdamomma]

128. We will fight back

I don't like this shit of them saying we are afraid, that is psychological shit that they are assuming.

There is so much shit going on we will fight back hard.

[AlexSFCA]

52. I envy your optimism

[manicraven]

66. I agree! The GOP is planning to oust tRump and that will remove Bannon.

There's no way the GOP is going to sit back and take orders from Putin. Even that's too far for them. Give me a break!

[jambo101]

31. How did it get to this?

How did nobody see it coming and put in place actions to avoid Americas rightwing nut jobs from being in charge of all the marbles,? how could all the polls and talking heads on the various talk shows get it so wrong?, Now what? do we just sit back and watch the madman Trump and his lemmings destroy the world?

[AlexSFCA]

54. easy

As I mentioned earlier - Citizens United. That's how.
Why nobody saw this coming - our minds were not preared to comprehend it, mine included. It goes against our 'American optimism'.

[True_Blue]

133. Yes how could anyone not see this coming?

Trump is clearly unfit to be POTUS and our lawmakers need to remove him as soon as possible.

[world wide wally]

223. They forgot to remember that elections have consequences...

And none so severe as this past one

[wishstar]

34. Agree,unless IRS charges him with massive tax evasion, his returns are inconsequential

Never have understood what people expect to be revealed in his tax returns that would be game changing, since he already admitted to not paying any income taxes for decades due to his massive bankruptcy write-offs. Anything nefarious involving NY or Russia mob would not be revealed as those payments would be hidden and laundered. We already know he owes Deutche Bank and Chinese banks millions. We already know he received millions from Russian oligarchs who purchased properties in NY and Florida. He was already fined for illegal campaign contribs to Pam Bondi from his foundation. None of these facts has affected his popularity or caused him repercussions.

Even if he is forced to resign under threat of impeachment, Pence, Ryan, et al, are standard bearers eager to carry out the same anti-liberal onslaught. Our elections are severely imperiled by Repub dominance in so many states and they will make it even worse for us.

Seems to me that only hope for liberalism to prevail is by educating our friends and relatives who are not brainwashed yet, relentlessly speaking out on social media, pressuring our politicians and showing solidarity in opposition, rather than resigned appeasement and the circular firing squad.

Some of the voices in our mainstream media at least are finally showing some backbone exposing and countering him but it's frustrating that they were glad to have the election stay razor thin for ratings and entertainment value allowing him to win, until belatedly realizing they should stand up to him now that their very existence is threatened.

[denbot]

47. Tell that shit gibbon to bring it on!

We're not going to let that happen!

[Blue_true]

49. I mostly disagree.

But on Germany most likely becoming the leader of the free world, I agree. May in Britain is a poser, I expect Scotland to decide to leave the UK if Brexit happens and Germany and France manage to keep the EU healthy.

You seem to feel that the sky is all dark. I actually feel that we may be on the dawn of a new, long term progressive epoch. Trump will not run over California, Jerry Brown won't let him. As Brown wins battles, states like New York will revolt, as will New Jersey after Christie is gone in two years or less (if Democrats in Jersey don't take the Governor's chair after Christie, they are true posers). Expect a Democrat to win Governor of Kansas after Brownback's gross mismanagement. One of the best things that may have happened for Democrats and the country long term was republicans taking over all of federal government and most states, although there will be short term suffering, republicans in Washington DC and nationwide won't be able to blame their incompetence on Democrats.

[AlexSFCA]

51. again

You are applying your old thinking and politics as usual. Have you educated yourself on the things I mentioned? I emphasize and even am jelaous of people like you who can remain optimistic or be in denial.

Brown, Newsom are not prepared for this. Election integrity itself is in question.

Trump can not do it alone, that is why foreign policy is key. Britain, France, Netherlands, Italy, possibly Germany, Russia (of course) all joining the new geopolitical reality where the war is not really on Islam (it's a bait) but on 'liberalism'.

[Blue_true]

56. Brown is a tough cookie, he is ready to

Fight Trump. There are other solid Democrats in California other than Newsome once Brown leaves in two years, there is no certainty Newsome will assume the Governor's chair. I really like the Mayor of Oakland and the Mayor of LA, both are progressive and sharp politicians.

Voting Rights attacks by Sessions will get tied up in the Courts for years, he can't do squat on his own. Our problem as Democrats is that we have fallen into the belief that money wins elections, it doesn't, having clear ideas and driving those ideals home every minute wins elections, along with having an effective political war room to instantaneously call republican candidates on their bullshit. Also, as a party, we need to get younger, more agressive politicians to the front adap, that is why I was so disappointed when Nancy Pelosi didn't step aside in favor of a younger Democrat House Leader (republicans have successfully used her as a lightening rod for the last eight years, to the detriment of Democrats).

[AlexSFCA]

55. thank you

Last edited Sat Jan 28, 2017, 08:51 PM - Edit history (1)

I wanna thank all DUers who are keeping track of facts. I know that some of you may not be able to grasp what I wrote in its entirety immidiately. But you will understand it once you see what is happening next. We are so focused on the issues and not on the intents of those who propose them. Without seeing the intent we can not make the right choices.

I know some of you will be in denial or completely disagree with me. All I can tell you that I have no doubt in everything I wrote. I know how painful it is to let this into your mind. Because you see that this populist movement is now on auto-pilot with no stop button, it will frighten you deeply. Trust me, I am not sleeping well.

We can not develop strategies if we don't understand the ultimate goals of the new regime and how they will be achieving it. Bannon has been planning this coup for a long time - he worked with Ted Cruz first and thought he would be his best chance but then saw Trump's 'talents' and propelled him to victory.

[MineralMan]

58. Really? A week into Trump's presidency and you can see all that?

That's really amazing. Rarely do I come across someone who is so quick to have a complete understanding of the present situation and to be so sure of what it all means in terms of our future.

With all respect that is due, I suggest that you are incorrect in your assessment. Instead of Trump portending the end of American democracy, the exact opposite may actually be the result.

May be. I would not presume to predict the future based on any President's first week in office. That seems so premature to me that I can hardly contain myself. So, I'll end this reply before I disintegrate into uncontrollable laughter.

[AlexSFCA]

61. I understand

Please re-asses in a few weeks when you will start remembering what I wrote. He is moving quickly.

[Leghorn21]

67. Hey AlexSFCA - thanks for posting, and welcome to

America (seriously) - you have been through more than I could ever understand, and I hope this country has been good to and for you -

...the second night after the election, I saw Masha Gessen on Rachel Maddow - like you, she has been there/done that, and minces no words - she said we might "lack the imagination" (putting it kindly) to think such a scenario as you describe could actually happen here - her twitter account links to her various articles on Russia/US -

I also read Ned Resnikoff's article, and...have tried to...absorb it all...again, thank you for posting


Ms Gessen's twitter acct:
https://mobile.twitter.com/mashagessen?lang=en


Ned Resnikoff, November 27, '16

Bannon is a skilled practitioner of the “darkness” strategy, but he is not its inventor. The real Master of the Dark Arts is another Karl Rove equivalent: Vladislav Surkov, a top adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Surkov, the documentary journalist Adam Curtis said in a 2014 film, is “a hero of our time.” He went on to describe the Surkovian method:
His aim is to undermine peoples’ perceptions of the world, so they never know what is really happening.

Surkov turned Russian politics into a bewildering, constantly changing piece of theater. He sponsored all kinds of groups, from neo-Nazi skinheads to liberal human rights groups. He even backed parties that were opposed to President Putin.

But the key thing was, that Surkov then let it be known that this was what he was doing, which meant that no one was sure what was real or fake. As one journalist put it: “It is a strategy of power that keeps any opposition constantly confused.”

A ceaseless shape-shifting that is unstoppable because it is undefinable. It is exactly what Surkov is alleged to have done in the Ukraine this year. In typical fashion, as the war began, Surkov published a short story about something he called non-linear war. A war where you never know what the enemy are really up to, or even who they are. The underlying aim, Surkov says, is not to win the war, but to use the conflict to create a constant state of destabilized perception, in order to manage and control.



Whole article here:
https://thinkprogress.org/when-everything-is-a-lie-power-is-the-only-truth-1e641751d150#.dxar2ac78   

[AlexSFCA]

70. painful

When I became a naturalized citizen it was the best feeling. I've had the best time of my life under Obama.

This is the reason why these developements hit me so hard. When we experience tradegy we try to analyze searching for answers. To dig out of the abyss, I found those answers and they are frightening.

Of course, the only thing that's stronger than fear is hope - we are humans. I do beleive in humanity but we don't learn! We can not transfer feelings from one generation to another, only emotionless facts. We go up and down. Germany was progressive liberal democracy prior to Nazi.

Bad scenario (which I beleive is most likely): Trump will succeed in moving to oligarchy and we will have this 'regime' for a long time. Ivanka may become a president after him, already preparing. Constitutional rights will be opressed, no major marches - Putin's playbook. The choice who to vote for on state and federal levels will be limited. I am not even gonna mention a war with Islam abroad and possible draft in the US. 'Liberalism' will be severly supressed. Every regime falls apart and I do beleive one day even Russia will become democracy again. But this will require a true revolution and a Civil War.

Good scenario: Trump gets assasinated. But there is a caveat - it may lead to unintended consequences.

It is now us against federal government. Prepare for the battle of your lifetime.

[Leghorn21]

76. I appreciate your reply, and am so truly sorry you have found yourself once

again back at "the scene of the crime", with few around you listening and understanding what you are desperately trying to explain - we do, indeed, most likely suffer a "lack of imagination".

As each astonishing day goes by, many of us are grasping for "logical" explanations, and yours - PAINFUL as it is - may, slowly/surely, be making more and more sense, which is just AWFUL - but we need to know who and what we're dealing with here to more effectively resist it.

Thank you again, Alex, truly.

[AlexSFCA]

84. frusturating

The frustrating part is that even older people with sifnuficant life experience and education do not grasp it. Because, we have been throwing words like Nazi and fascism and hitler left and right. They lost their power.

the feeling I had on Sunday, when Conway said alternative facts and then press-secretary doubled down. It was very painful because I remembered when I had this feeing the last time. The day aprtment bombings in Moscow (1999) started followed by gaslighting and a war on 'liberalism' and consolidation of media. My PTSD blocked this feeling from me. So I left the country for good and never looked back (and I am gay so figure). But it is a distinct feeling of hopelessness that brought me down immediately when I saw that clip with Coneat because it was post-inauguration.

Beleive in the worst possible outcome, I know it is very painful but we can not come up with effective strategies on how to overcome their methods.

[Leghorn21]

94. I'll tell you what, Alex, if English is your second (or third or fourth)

language, HOLY excuse me SHIT. Your description of that verrrrry distinct "little" moment when you heard the words "alternative facts" after what you have been through is simply gut wrenching. I have only just heard about the Moscow apartment bombings and subsequent swift annihilation of Russian institutions - I'm not proud of my ignorance - so to hear you speak of it all so personally is just devastating.

Now, I am not ready to concede, not ready to "believe in the worst possible outcome", but I am so glad you're here; here in America with us, and in California, and on DU. I salute your courage, strength and honesty, PERIOD.

[GliderGuider]

90. So the impression I'm getting is this:

Dugin is the strategist; Surkov the tactician; and Putin the power broker who can put their plans into action. Would that be a fair view?

From the little I've read this afternoon (your post was the first time I've run into Surkov with my eyes open) it definitely seems like he is the architect of the 4GW scenario the US now finds it in - a war that serves Duginist strategic goals.

[AlexSFCA]

96. surkov

yes, Surkov. This is when we don't have enough info, perharps. My guess would be is that Bannon and possibly Fynn both had training in those techniques. Surkov was likely involved in all of these elections but I do not know if he has hands on involvement post election or post-inauguratuon.

[GliderGuider]

98. I noticed that there seems to be a fog around Surkin.

Lots of words, lots of facts, but his connections seem obscured. I find no solid direct link between him and Dugin, which is surprising.

[AlexSFCA]

121. hmm

I wouldn't spend too much time on Surkov. By the way he changed his name. He used to be Dudayev before and the opposition beleives he orchetrated those apartment bombings in Moscow in 1999 to start a war in Chechen war and transition to oligarchy. I think it's interesting to learn about techniques he uses - I am not too versed beyond the basics.

[GliderGuider]

122. You're probably right

I'm prepared to accept his techniques as a given - it's obvious that they've been well developed and are in use here. One aspect of thr technique is the apartment bombings you've talked about. I expect to see a false flag attack to cement Trump's position, and I've already speculated that it would follow the pattern of those bombings, or (or possibly and) the school siege in Beslan. They're quite familiar with the techniques, both of the bombings themselves, and the exploitatation of the aftermath.

But I'm much more interested in the strategic aspects of this. Partly it's my nature, and partly that I can afford to be a bit more detached, since I'm Canadian and we haven't been hit yet. I'm fully expecting us to be dragged into the maelstrom one way or another over the next year or two, though.

The fact that I'm Canadian is also why I'm less aware of issues in the various states like you describe in California. I'm not close enough to have a good view, and I frankly have had little interest in the details of state politics until now. But I can see that if there is a prime target for concentrated "reality bombing" outside of Washington DC, California is it. The news about Thiel should be setting off alarms everywhere in the context of Trump's victory.

My perspective on this situation is grounded to a large degree in complex systems science and evolutionary psychology, and far less in party politics per se. That makes Dugin very interesting to me. But also, the tactics that are playing out on the ground are classic examples of ev psych principles in action. I'm especially interested in the principles related to to leadership, followership and group membership - the classic tribal instincts that I expect to see stimulated across the US in the coming months to foment multi-axis identity politics and tribal warfare. California is a natural candidate to be a crucible to prove out these methods.

I apologize to DU members if my commentary sounds pretty damn bloodless and cold. It all makes me so sad, I have to withdraw into an abstract world view in order to save my own sanity. I'm having anxiety attacks from the situation, and I've been on anti-depressants since the inauguration. We each protect ourselves in our own way.

[AlexSFCA]

125. good analysis

Unfortunately, Canada is not immune. Its economy is deeply interconnected with USA even beyond NAFTA.

Always remember what this is all about. The global war on 'liberalism'. After they destabilize California, Canada will remain a symbol of success of what they view as liberal policies: multiculturalism, pro-choice, gay marriage, etc. They won't let this happen.

You know Canada better than me but Alberta is particularly conservarive with resemblances to American conservatism. I don't need to tell you how islamophobia can be instigated in Canada to initiate the process. Look for traces of this 'alt right' ideology in canadian news, rhetoric, new politicians, talk against 'establishment', etc.; and see if something might be in the works...

[GliderGuider]

127. There are alt-right tracks all over the landscape up here.

There will be escalating political attacks on Trudeau from the local rightwing (esp out of Alberta as you correctly note), along with economic warfare and propaganda from the US.

In the short term I'm also worried about a false-flag attack on the US that implicates Canada, possibly by making it look as though the "jihadis" who carried it out entered the US from here. They already tried that tactic during the 9/11 aftermath. It didn't work then, but it would be a slam-dunk now.

[cilla4progress]

179. Hi again, GG

Thank you for responding to my PM of a week or so ago. I am impressed with and fascinated by your commentary.

I believe the actions at UC Berkley CA last night are a mini-false flag, if you will. Who knows, maybe Putin is funding these blackrobed "anarchists" to foment violence at protests, leading towards clamping down on the resistance. As we have been reading, there are many bills being introduced across the country to outlaw or limit even peaceful protest.

Will we ever learn who the purchaser of Russia'so largest state-owned oil company for $19 billion was?

And bless the indigenous trying to protect the water at Standing Rock...and keep them safe

[IamFortunesFool]

183. If I may interject

Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2017, 03:38 PM - Edit history (1)

I like to keep an ear open to the millings and mood of the people as much as possible. It is through this lens, watching the political theater manifest into the words and actions of regular people, that we may get at the heart of what is motivating the manipulations of their provocateurs, and extrapolate what are the results they likely want to achieve. All reverse-engineering is admittedly fraught with and executed by assumptions, but those assumptions can be informed and made confidently based on known related maters/cases, and through the application of deductive reasoning and logic tools like Occom's razor.

The people, LEFT AND RIGHT, are all speaking of conspiracy. I live in the south, and the people here are grumbling with resentment over what they believe are protests and social unrest being bankrolled by George Soros, with consultation from the Clinton's and a handful of their other favorite liberal punching bags sprinkled on for good measure. They believe that the millennial generation has been brainwashed by propaganda from Hollywood and that the people demonstrating are either one of these two types: anarchist funded by the Soros cabal to sow unrest and upheaval, or mindless BernieBro servants of pop culture. The general consensus is that the people (those protesting) don't get it, and don't count as real Americans. At the same time, these same conservative are polarizing among themselves over the actions and chaos of the administration. There are those who are ecstatic and elated over Trump throwing monkey wrenches and grenades all over and making good on his myriad and maddening campaign promises. Conversely, there are those who foolishly thought Trump would somehow normalize and govern with some semblance of prestige and respect for our institutions of government. Those folks are now starting to realize their guilt, but are still too stubbornly proud to do much but whisper about it to sympathetic minds. They are dumbfounded by Trump's warmness to Putin, and his continuing reality show approach to everything he does. These two factions are aware of and horrified at each other, but they are still too allied against the Democrats and liberalism to meaningfully break rank publicly...but the divisions are real and festering nonetheless.

This thread is a fantastic example of the most leftists take on the conspiracy, and one which I happen to believe is immeasurably better researched and reasoned than any of the conspiracy tropes on the right. That said, the evidence to me points to a transition from operational to institutional. What I mean by that is that at some point, if the Dominion's psy-opps are successful, they will no longer need active agents creating violence within previously peaceful resistance, as the social turmoil will be breeding violence of its own accord, and their operation will have been a success. I believe we are at that point. I would wager that the low scale "riot" behavior at Berkeley last night was organic. If it had happened in a more conservative place, like Chattanooga, Birmingham, or Little Rock, then I would perhaps suspect a dark hand. There is enough cultural support at Berkeley for that sort of rabble to happen as a natural consequence of the very real anger we all feel. There is no such consensus in the heartland and south. When we start seeing violence erupt there, it will signify either the agents of the Dominion staging the type of "false flags" you proposed, or it will mean that organic social violence has become pervasive and our country is on the brink of social war and militarized police rule.

Standing Rock will be a flash point for all of this. When things go bad there, and they inevitably will, the rest of the country will follow suite.

[cilla4progress]

184. I think the black suits and

Crowbars distinguish the agitators from the student protestors. May or may not have been a setup.

Thanks.

[hedda_foil]

222. Thank you for mentioning Silicon billionaire Trump backer Peter Thiel, California's next governor.

Peter Thiel considering bid for California governor
The outspoken Silicon Valley billionaire and Trump supporter has been discussing a prospective run with advisers.
By ALEX ISENSTADT 01/14/17 06:25 PM EST
170114-Peter-Thiel-GettyImages-619462970.jpg
Peter Thiel, who is worth an estimated $2.7 billion, would have the ability to self-fund a campaign. | Getty
Facebook Twitter Google + Email Comment Print
Peter Thiel, the Silicon Valley billionaire and outspoken Donald Trump supporter, is considering a 2018 bid for California governor, according to three Republicans familiar with his thinking.

Thiel, who co-founded PayPal and was an early investor in Facebook, has been discussing a prospective bid with a small circle of advisers, including Rob Morrow, who has emerged as his political consigliere.


Morrow has worked at Clarium Capital, the San Francisco-based investment management firm and hedge fund that Thiel started.

Those who have been in touch with the 49-year-old entrepreneur are skeptical that he’ll enter the race. He is a deeply private figure, and California is unfriendly territory for a Republican — particularly a pro-Trump one. The president-elect won just over 30 percent of the vote there.

But they add that Thiel has conspicuously yet to rule out a bid and that those around him continue to discuss it.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/01/peter-thiel-california-governor-bid-233632

[Leghorn21]

97. GG, your wondering if you've come up with a "fair view" is

certainly not a question I could answer!! Sad (ignorant) truth is, I'm only just now hearing about this Dugin character...I think there's a chance you meant to reply to Alex? - but at any rate, glad to meet you!

[GliderGuider]

100. Yes, sorry. I missed on who I was replying to.

I'm learning as we go as well - I only encountered Dugin a week ago myself. This is an absolutely riveting discussion, though. I hope it makes some impression around here, because both Alex and I are as serious as a heart attack about the danger the USA is in..

[Leghorn21]

101. No worries, eh? We're all reading and writing as hard as we can!! I'm off to

study up on Dugin, right effin now - !

[riderinthestorm]

120. The rapid EOs and confrontations are deliberate imo. Part of the plan

They keep us from being able to focus on one single transgression.

[Vilis Veritas]

59. At least I am not alone in my thoughts...nt

[Doremus]

63. What's happening to the economy while all of this is going on?

I always follow the money. Social unrest doesn't bode well for the economy, or at least the driver thereof. Worried consumers aren't the best spenders.

Also, what are the hedge fund managers and Wall Street gazillionaires going to think about a destabilized economy?

Another thought: China owns a great deal of US debt. I don't think they'd happily watch anybody potentially messing with their money.

[AlexSFCA]

69. tough

This is not a simple question. This ideology believes in losers and winners. For the time being stock market will be fine and maybe continue to rise. This is because they expect corporate tax cuts, deregultion and thriving banking sector. I suggest you follow Robert Reich - he is spot on when it comes to economy.

It is a very high priority for trump to deliver abundance of well paying jobs to his voters in WI, MI, PA, et. This is because he needs to indefinately lock the electoral college leaving no chance for democrats in 2020 and 2018 quite frankly. Nuclear option will likely be activated in the senate.

All his voters and new converts will worship him like a god because he delivered as promised. Those people will evangilize and multiply the support for trump increasing his approval ratings.

The economy will depend on any potential military conflicts and it is highly unstable due to changes in trade agreements. It will crash as usual but I don't yet know when. A lot depends on infrastructure bill.

[workinclasszero]

75. But how exactly is he going to do this?

"It is a very high priority for trump to deliver abundance of well paying jobs to his voters in WI, MI, PA, et."

A trade war with Mexico won't do it that's for sure. 30 buck an hour factory jobs by the millions for HS dropouts are never ever never coming back no matter what Trump does.

They were never here for most in the first place, ask me I was there!

Every US corp that pulls jobs back to the US to gain favor with Dumpf will automate all the positions they can and pay the lowest wages and least benefits as possible.

Trump lied his ass off to those suckers and they bought it hook line and sinker.

Cold reality will slap them in the face soon.

[AlexSFCA]

77. infrastructure

One way is through massive infrastructure investments. Nevermind that those jobs might be temporary (4-5 years) enough to amplify the movement and get reelected. As you know drilling is about to start on a large scale. Bringing back manufacturing jobs - they will be automated but it will take time and in the meantime automation needs to be fully developed (high paying jobs).

C'mon, there are so many ways to deliver jobs to a specific region when it is your goal (even at a cost to us, taxpayers). It's the easy part, IMO.

[workinclasszero]

81. For instance...

The Keystone pipeline will create just 35 permanent jobs. Don't believe the lies
We cannot pollute our way to prosperity. If President Trump doesn’t own up to that, he will face a backlash
Raúl M Grijalva Wednesday 25 January 2017 11.11 EST

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028542860

And what about all the coal miners? Is Trumps government going to pay them a great wage to dig up dirty coal that the rest on the non-insane world is rapidly moving away from?

Because no one else will pay for a product no one wants.

As soon as Trump comes out with a TVA level national works plan I'll believe it.

Of course his own damned party would be against that jobs plan too. LOL

[AlexSFCA]

87. big picture

$1T infrastructure scam is gonna be pushed by bannon. Expect massive scale propaganda like we have never seen before.

They control the 'facts', labor dept statistics, IRS, unemployment stats... You guys are so focused on minute things that still do not want to understand how this administration is driven. Passing an infrastructure bill is MUCH easier than succeding in trump election. Be vigilant, and you will see, it will be happening within weeks.

[workinclasszero]

89. We will see soon enough

Good discussion though.

[Doremus]

92. The economy is not 'minute'. It's everything. Not only to the working class

but especially to the movers and shakers.

I just don't see gazillionaires standing idly by while Trump strangles the golden goose.

[yardwork]

68. I've been thinking everything you say here.

Any suggestions on how we can fight back?

[AlexSFCA]

144. a million dollar question

We are just now beginning to see the whole picture.

[0rganism]

72. yep, this is where we are now

the question of "what is to be done?" cannot be answered successfully without understanding this much at least

Putin re-opened the cold war without us noticing and is maybe 2-4 years away from effectively annexing the USA from within

the democratic approaches of non-violent peaceful resistance that were successful in shifting and shaping national policies 40-50 years ago are not going to get it done this time. in a few months massive protests won't even get coverage outside of social media, and after a few years of that, combined with aggressive pro-Trump bias in the re-consolidated news media, protests will barely get coverage at all.

2018 is shaping up to be an absolute bloodbath for us. between the unfavorable senate map, the inevitable capitulation of the news media in the name of getting access necessary to cover political developments at all, and continued sabotage from dedicated Russian agents and operatives, we're going to have a very difficult time maintaining the minorities we have now let-alone making legislative gains sufficient to stem the tide of destruction heading our way.

we're in a transitional period now, where the vestiges of the Old Republic still hold some value and our voices can still be heard. soon even this turbulent time will be but a pleasant memory, to be swept away as we become Russia's #1 client state.

from what i've seen in studying such things, systemic transitions between stable points tend to happen very fast. now is our best opportunity to organize a resistance, but we are already operating with very incomplete information and many of us are still in denial over how complete the changes will be. instead we're overwhelmed by revulsion at the personality of one of the agents, who's doing his actual job (aka pretending to rule a democratic nation poorly) extremely well whether he knows it or not.

i could barely sleep for weeks after the election. finally someone has successfully articulated why.

[Rex]

79. The end came back in 2000.

This is just finishing off the body. IMO.

[VOX]

99. Yes. The 2000 "selection" and 9/11/2001 are what got us here.

All the nationalism, Red State vs. Blue State, deep divisions, Patriot Act, the xenophobia, etc. As a democracy, we've been going downhill ever since these events. Obama held the line for eight years, but now...

[LovingA2andMI]

82. So Are You Leaving?

This is a serious question because instead of focusing on the Doomsday is here and in LIVE and LIVING COLOR scenario, others are working to Maintain Democrats in the Senate in 2018, add a couple of seats (like four by ANY MEANS NECESSARY), gaining seats in the House, taking over local governmental units full of Progressives ready to fight, overturning the Map in State Legislatures --- and you know -- important things like so that are CRITICAL to MAINTAIN our DEMOCRACY.

Just saying....

[lunatica]

86. Put up the good fight

But don't ignore the warnings. It's best to be realistic, albeit optimistic.

[AlexSFCA]

88. not leaving

have nowhere to leave. I beleve in America and even under worst case scenario I may still see this country coming back to liberal democracy in my lifetime. But I bet that 8 years under Obama will always have special place in my memory.
It's not so much the country itself anymore but I love all the people who are on our side. We are in it together no matter how hard it is.

Obama really spoiled us. Honestly, I was not once worried about our country and its direction since about 2010. So we stopped being vigilant while the other side had activated started from Tea Party.

[lunatica]

83. Very good points, well thought out and clearly stated

You have smarts! Welcome to DU

[Generator]

91. What is your motive in posting this?

What do you want people to do? Because Du'ers have had these thoughts believe me. Some of us know just voting and protesting isn't going to be enough. But I feel you want us to surrender before the war has even started. And that I do not like. Is that just Russian pessimism? I no longer believe in any kind of American exceptionalism if I ever did.

I do believe in people. Individual people. A country is not a monolith. The CIA has individual people with individual beliefs. As does the military and on and on. You have no idea how individuals will react and what they will do. The same is true with every individual in this country. They may fail democracy or they may stand up. Not very long ago people with black skin weren't even considered human in this country. Individual people changed that. The future is not written. I object to those that say it is.

And as far as the tax returns-once you start saying everything is a conspiracy-ie the tax returns will be rigged then we have no chance to ever have any reality. That is dangerous. Obviously the taxes still matter-why hasn't he thought of issuing fake ones yet? Where are the great masterminds? If they were honestly the masterminds you say-maybe people wouldn't know that Bannon is literally a Nazi wannabe. Yes he is a Nazi. I say it every chance I get. The alt-right are Nazi's. Language matters.

The culture of this country has changed dramatically in a very short time. I am not sure people will go back so easily to not having gay rights and women's rights. But it's possible we will cave and it's all over as you say. Then I guess we should eat, drink, take drugs and travel because it's all over. I mean the end of the world happens to us all the time-every time someone you love dies. That is probably as important as anything political. I did a lot of thinking about this in the shower. Life is short. Being in despair isn't really any better than being "awake". It's one freaking day at a time. Just like when someone you love is dying. That's what this American nightmare is. And in between we have some joy.

[AlexSFCA]

102. thanks

Thank you for your input. It made me feel better, maybe it can be stopped. I shared my thoughts here because outside of DU, friends do not truly grasp the end goals of this administration. I posted in hopes to start thinking of our strategy. Politicians do not even talk about it, just pieces and bits of info.

As pessimistic as I am at the moment, more than anything in the world I would like to be proven wrong. Thank you for your input on tax return. You are right, maybe I was overthinking it. I corrected my original post to that effect - I don't want anyone to despair.

By sharing thoughts, I know I will sleep better today because I am not going crazy, several other members have exact same thoughts. I just don't have anyone in my circle to even discuss it with - not everyone is interested in this.

[cilla4progress]

181. I imagine there are more politicians who see as you do

But won't say anything for fear of causing panic...

[VOX]

95. There has been a coup d'etat, and these are not ordinary times.

It is imperative to look at what's going on from all angles. Because there are multiple alarm bells being triggered daily. Our democracy is under attack, that much is obvious. Trump is a preening, blustering puppet, and not the "head of the serpent."

Put another way, Steve Bannon is to DT as Dick Cheney was to GWB. That's the key here.

On edit: I'm not endorsing or repudiating the OP. I just think everyone should seriously examine Steve Bannon's history and connections, because he's pretty much "directing traffic" for DT.

[nancy1942]

103. You are right.

These are not normal events we are seeing. This cadre of swindlers, snake oil peddlers, etc,etc were put in their positions to destroy our democracy as we thought we knew it. Anyone who thinks we just need to march, carry signs, write letters to the editor, call our elected officials; is living in a country that simply doesn't care because as they say, " we won and we will do what we please. Go away. Shut up. Yah. Yah.
I am frankly surprised that a whole week has gone by without tiny Trump getting in a snit and lobbing a nuke at someone/anyone who dares to insult him in some juvenile fashion.
I have never been a Pollyanna, but this outfit terrifies me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

104. We have been ruled by elites since our nation's founding

To conclude, we are currently in transition from liberal democracy to oligarchy and I don't know if and how we can stop it.

We have been ruled softly by elites since our nation's founding. Some times they ruled for the best , some times they ruled for the worst.

What you are suggesting is we will fall to an authoritarian or totalitarian regime. That would be a much harsher system than we have now and would only increase the already powerful centrifugal forces. The elites would have preferred things the way they were. I doubt they are enthralled with Trump.

[AlexSFCA]

105. term

Maybe I used incorrect term, whatever system Russia has - pseudo-democracy oligarchy? Authoritarianism?

The elites may not give up power but I don't even who are the elites anymore. But looks like there are options. I am starting to feel better already.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

106. I would call Russia an authoritarian regime.

North Korea is a totalitarian regime. The U S is a bourgeois democracy with elements of a meritocracy and an elite based on primogeniture.

Trump is a bad guy. He is not a small (d) democrat. In your original post you mentioned oligarchs would like to turn back the clock on reproductive and glbtq rights. Why ? They don't threaten their money or standing. I doubt the Waltons or the Kochs or the Mercers give a hoot who is sleeping with who. It doesn't threaten them.

IMHO, the elites are small c conservative. I don't believe they are happy at all with all the tumult Trump is creating.

[AlexSFCA]

107. geez

It's like we are back to square one. This is a war on 'liberalism'. One of the most critical elements of this movement is the establishment of Judeo-Christian values - Pence was chosen for a reason. Again, keyword - Dugin and Bannon.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. But the oligarchs don't give a rip about Judeao-Christian values as long as they are making money.

If I am a Walton I don't care what folks are doing as long they aren't harming my bottom line. In fact most corporations would prefer to not become combatants in the culture war.

[AlexSFCA]

111. it's not the same

this is not up to corporations to decide. Social unrest will lead to 'Law & Order" and establishment of "traditional values" because this is what it's all about. To reverse the course of history in order to maintain majority white christian population. Liberalism contradicts their mision. Again, Bannon and Dugin.

I'll make it even easier for you - with a single tweet, trump can crash a stock of a corporation.

[LisaL]

124. US is not a democracy. If US was a democracy, Hillary would be president because she got more votes.

US is a representative republic.

[AlexSFCA]

143. equivalent

I'd say for all intents and purposes, US is a liberal constitutional democracy especially on a state level. Many libera democracies don't even elect their presidents (prime-minister) but in a context of this discussion we call them liberal democracies.

[singed.dude]

109. Glad you wrote this

I agree with you in that we are witnessing the end of our democracy. However, IMO, the beginning of the end started with the JFK assassination. Citizens United was the tipping point.

[AlexSFCA]

110. the end then?

that would be too depressing. I was quite happy with our democracy, I mean we had Obama elected twice, he wasn't really the establishment back then. He inspired me deeply. We've had civil liberties and we were moving forward. Goah, for such a diverse country and especially in major metropolitan areas, I'd say it's been quite great (all relative of course).

Their movement blames 'liberalism' for all the problems in the world while we see it as the evolution of democracy and freedom. I beleive 'liberalism' is natural, that is who we are when we're children - we're free to be ourselves.

Conservatism and especially alt right is artificially created to brainwash people with propaganda in order to gain power.

Reagan, Bush and Bush W did not try to destroy the foundations of our democracy (independent press and election integrity) and quite frankly destroy half of the government. The recount was a separate issue, IMO.

I believe that it was Citizens United ruling that destroyed it. Because we wouldn't have trump otherwise. That is also why Putin's previous attempts to undermine our democracy were not successful until recently.

An important fact - Trump was exploring a run for president in 2011. It is not a coincidence. It was after Citizens United decision (Bannon had connection to it). What I am saying is that it is logical to conclude that trump has been planning his campaign for quite some time. Bannon was too but he decided to support Ted Cruz because he beleived he had a better chance until he switched to team trump.

Trump's vision was not as coherent until Bannon started to work on his campaign and he had gone full breitbart of course. So there is a tiny, tiny chance that Trump may open up his heart and atart acting independently. Bannon is not the president.

[singed.dude]

115. Read this comment

written by Animal Farm:

[Mr. Ected]

112. Far too many people have been brainwashed to believe liberals and HRC

Are the true enemies, and that we will say and do anything to seize and maintain control. They won't listen. They won't ever believe that Trump is what he is. Their denial will also be their, and our, demise.

[AlexSFCA]

114. bingo!

Yes, this has been going on for quite some time. Millions of people got hooked on right wing radio, breitbart as main news resource, fox news, etc. MILLIONS. We have nothing like that and to recapture the time lost is going to take a while.

They have conviniced millions that our country is falling apart cause of 'liberal policies' and that governemnt is your enemy.

I would not be surprised if Russia has been pumping money to those right wing personalities (pre- Citizens United) for a long shot at eventual coup. Cause trump could not have happened without years of propaganda.

[DEM4EVR801]

113. This Will Be A Messy Fight For Our Democracy...

Don't Give Up Hope.

If you recall during the 2016 Presidential Election Drumpf started tweeting when threatened by Senator Elizabeth Warren and called her "Pocahantas". (First Mistake Whereas His Drug-Induced Followers Couldn't Add 1 + 1 = 2)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/06/28/why-donald-trump-calls-elizabeth-warren-pocahontas/?utm_term=.8bd393fb01b7

This choice of nickname was used by the main character in the 2000 movie 'Me, Myself and Irene' by the Farrelly Brothers starring Jim Carrey who played a schizophrenic Rhode Island State Police Officer.

As Recent Events Suggest, 45 watches a lot of TV and we don't know if he deals with reality or is off his meds, etc.

Really, He needs to go to Bethesda for his first physical so the public can get to the honest truth. (Not Going To Happen. Pootie Is Visiting!).

Also, he picked the pale-skinned guy as his running mate who was just like the guy in the movie (Ref. "Whitey&quot .

If all this makes sense then our democracy will survive under those willing to fight back like all of us DUers, etc.

Hope This Helps!!!

“Live everyday as if it were your last because someday you're going to be right.”
― Muhammad Ali

[AlexSFCA]

116. dream

I have this pathological dream periodically and probably just a deflection from gruesome reality but nevertheless.

I sometimes imagine if trump is actually smarter than we think and is going for 'expose' by outplaying bannon and even putin. As if he pushes the world to the edge (nuclear threat) so the people can see that those right wing propaganda personlities are just insane and corrupt (expose) and their supporters will see the actual reality and putin gets exposed too and all corrupt republicans.

The only reason I keep imagining this is because I cannot get over the fact that Ivanka seems like a nice, honest person and allegedly a friend of Chelsea. I just can't reconcile that she has a monster father. How could she be tolerating this insanity? It's like there is a plot with clintons themselves helped to plan it. Weird. But I thought I'd throw it out here. It helps me sleep at night sometimes.

[LisaL]

123. Having a nice daughter doesn't prove anything about the father.

Didn't Stalin have a nice daughter?

[AlexSFCA]

126. true

haha, now you even killed my escape dream. No sleep for me anymore, lol.

[old guy]

129. Thanks for posting this.

Bookmarking for sure.

[GliderGuider]

131. A kick for what is probably the most important thread on DU right now.

[AlexSFCA]

135. thanks

Last edited Sat Jan 28, 2017, 05:09 PM - Edit history (2)

Thank you Glider and others who are contributing. Concise messages are being born here to educate our non-political friends. Education is the first step as it will allow the innocent public to recognize what is happening - this is needed to effectively resist. On my facebook it only reached a few friends who really got it and started discussions with their friends and families. Most others just liked the post or dismissed it entirely (no politics on facebook kinda). But it's a start.

Your comments are pushing my thoughts to the next level. Let's also start summarizing some basics and still so many questions left:

1. Global war on 'liberalism' has been instigated by duginist Putin with the help of Surkov. Core ideology: Liberalism is the cause of all evil in the world including 'jihadist' terrorist attacks.
It's been going on for years but when did it start?

2. Dugin's core philosophy is that 'liberalism' can only be eliminated if USA is destroyed. Putin has been trying to undermine US democracy for years. My logical conclusion led me to this: he has been exploiting American conservatism and contributing to directing right wing propaganda to the right direction. For those who have been following/tracking right wings, are there any links between key right wing wakos and Russia? Have their philosophy changed over the years and how? Have any of them ever visited Russia any links at all (Limbaugh, Coulter, Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, etc.). Any propaganda websites that got initial funding from Russia? - maybe hard to track. Did Bannon get any money from russia?

3. Why are we having this war? Liberalism is fundametally incompatible with authoritarianism. It is a major threat to Putin's dominance.

4. Let's also think about pre-putin era. Did we have as many jihadist terrorist attacks?

5. Jihadists attacks are used as fear to gain power through democratic means. Other wedge issues of abortion, gays, establishment, etc. are needed to gain enough votes.

6. Putin's plan is to be the world's dominant superpower. He has been trying for years to brainwash (successfully) his entire popultion that the liberal West is the root of all evil.

7. Putin would not help to put trump in power if it would make America better in any way. He will present it as liberalism destroyed the west.

8. Here an epiphany I had today: it is possible that Putin wants to use America to enrich Russia first: cancel sanctions, solicit massive investments, trade deals. Ironically, the US will make Russia rich before Putin destroys us completely. Russia has the largest natural resources in the world beyond just oil. I say this, because simply destroying US does not automatically make Russia wealthy and I'd think it is important to him. Economy is failing there. Another way to remain in power is to start a war - massive draft in Russia (like WWII). Hunderds of thousands of unemployed, demoralized youth - send them to war sounds about 'right'.

9. Trump moving so aggressively starts to quickly alarm everyone. I would argue it is not the smartest strategy? Trump is nowhere as smart ir even informed as Putin - he was an easy target addicted to the idea of becoming like Putin. I think he is likely on some sort of experimental drugs used by FSB to desensitize. We may see him slowing down after speaking with Putin - do not be fooled by this move if it happens. The media will swallow it - "he was just overwhelmed and now learning how to be president".

10. Trump is hortified to face the truth (again drugs are needed for him to even function). Things did not go as planned - the world hates him. But he knows what Putin will do if does not proceed with dugin's plan?

[IamFortunesFool]

140. You are leaving out the other half of the equation...

While we (liberals) are waking up to the very real and intentional assault on our sensibilities, the conservatives have been feeling like this for a generation now. There are larger forces than just the Russians at work here. The overall pageant of western history is the story of a gradually evolving ethos that today we would call liberalism. It has not been a straight shot, and has been subject to many fits and regressions. The dynamic of painful progress wrought from entrenched habit; entrenched habit born of progressive successes. The fight of conservatism vs liberalism is required for progress to be made; and progressive adaptations are inevitable, as entropy will always increase within a closed system. Things are about to get incredibly painful as we define our next lessons about what it means to be human.

The real fight is for practical sustainability. We have overrun our ecosystem. Our evolutionary success has become so pronounced, that we've become unsustainable. Surviving the current rise of populist totalitarianism doesn't mean much if we don't get our global population in control. The current dystopian future you're foreseeing and articulating is only the tip of the iceberg of what will become the global wars for resources. So far we've only fought over arbitrary lines on the earth, and consumable luxuries like oil and minerals. The battles (even the greatest of wars) have been small compared to overall global populations. Just wait until we start fighting for clean water and air...

[AlexSFCA]

145. this is not the point

the point is that without external forces our country would be just fine, your old fashioned democrats vs. republicans where conservatism and liberalism co-exist - it is what we used to call an American Exceptionalism. We have been generally moving forward since WWII.

The real issue is that external forces (putin) have been interfering to shape and direct right wing messages over the years to their advantage. With the intent to undermine our democracy. I bet their propaganda may have infiltrated the left too - remember, we are talking about Surkov.

[IamFortunesFool]

146. I agree... That's not my point, either.

I am suggesting that Surkov and even Putin are part of a larger and more entrenched global cabal that can be historically traced to the turn of the last century and the institutionalization of central banking across the western and near east world.

[AlexSFCA]

147. let's stay focused

on present time or I feel we'll quickly get lost in all kinds of propaganda and endless conspiracy theories that will side track us away from the horryfing truth we are facing right this moment

[IamFortunesFool]

149. Agreed

I completly agree. I'm just thrilled to have found some folks that have seen behind the veil enough to realize what's really happening. Regardless of the depth of the conspiracy, the task at hand is clear. This process of us all finding each other and spreading the word is where it has to start. Before we can organize we have to educate.

[IamFortunesFool]

148. Further...

The global liberal order that you're referencing to and which has indeed been moving forward since WWII was needed to foster the animosities and political fetishes of the right. What we are seeing now is the crescendo of that process. We have been divided against ourselves by wedge issue after wedge issue for generations now. It has reached the boiling point, and the evidences you point to are the agents of this cabal making their play. I agree with you in every way, except I believe this process and vision predate the current Russian protagonists.

See my other archived posts for further articulation of this.

I have a lot more to say on this subject. I've been watching it and connecting the dots for years.

[AlexSFCA]

150. global order

Last edited Sun Jan 29, 2017, 12:17 AM - Edit history (1)

The thing about fostering to the right. I thought the right has been pretty happy with free trade that is part of the liberal global order? See how putin's has attenuated their messaging to fit his agenda?

This whole situation forced me to re-examine some of my views. Globalism is good - it keeps the world safer, nations closer, and it fosters freedom and democracy across the globe by helping poor countries. It is far from perfect but the alternative is so much worse. Russia is the main antagonist to globalism because they are not part of it. Populism is destroying the entire world, not just developed nations.

[InformedElitist]

151. great commentary!

I've had some of these thoughts sort of floating around in the back of my head, but you've presented the long-term trajectory (past, present, future) in such a clear, sobering and depressing way.

[IamFortunesFool]

152. There is positive view...

It doesn't have to be depressing. While, in the short term, what the future holds for our children and our grandchildren is undoubtedly terrifying, there really is the long view of our place in the parading menagerie of life. The chance that we have to subjectively witness and behold the universe and narrate this story is, as far as we know, unique to our modern condition. The brutality of existence only exists when we view it in terms of time...lifetimes, generations, singular species, or even geological features. All this is mutable in the face of infinity. We each have this one fragile chance to behold the great and terrible beauty of it all. That's where I find refuge, albeit sparse.

[IamFortunesFool]

136. I couldn't agree more...

I've been kind of ghosting on here for months and discovering this conversation today finally drew me out my silence. I've been watching this build and develop for years... I first started connecting the dots as the dust settled after 9-11. I've since followed the thread further back into history to gain a fuller understanding of just how such power has come about, but the results are inarguable. See my response to the original post for an overview of the situation we face as a species.

[IamFortunesFool]

134. Finally, some like minds!

Hello All!

As this is my first day actually posting here, let me first just say that I have read through this thread and am thrilled to see that there are others out there who see the signs of the encroaching Dominion. Thank you, Alex, and others for giving me cause to feel some sense of intellectual community in the vacuum of our day.

Your observations and deductions are spot on, and inarguable for any mind capable of hearing the argument. I would only add that this global cabal can be further traced back in history to the institutionalization of centralized banking across the western and near east world at the turn of the last century. If you consider the last 100 or so years of geopolitical and economic history within this context, the shadowed hand emerges from behind the veil. Since that time, this global Plutocracy has, with exponentially increasing technological capacity and masterfully designed social theatre, bred us to be increasingly apathetic and tribal as they go about consolidating and entrenching their power.

The first great world war against fascism became war the against Nazis, and then on communism. The Red Threat became the war on drugs, and the war on drugs became the war on terror, and the war on terror has become the war against each other; each one more abstract than the last. They are turning us against ourselves in order to sow the social war and violence needed to enshrine the ascendant police state and finally make an overt seizure of power. And the worst part is that we will beg for it. Just as we happily gave away our rights in the Patriot Act after 9-11, so will we gladly accept totalitarianism disguised as protectionism to save us from the social violence we are being bated into...our genetic tribalism is being exploited against us.

As you've stated, most are not informed enough or even willing to entertain this premise, as it too deeply disturbs more fundamental and likely even less informed assumptions. We still live in a world where the vast majority of people believe quite literally in some form of mythologies or parroted cultural cosmology. Science education has become so specialized that we no longer produce competent multi-disciplinary minds. Al of western popular culture, led by this country, has been running away from critical thought since the Industrial Revolution. The masses have happily sacrificed their minds for the comforts of the modern world. This original bargain is being reinforced by Darwinian selection processes at both a cultural, psychological, and sexual level. We are breeding and training ourselves to become progressively passive, placated, and easily transfixed.

I, for one, believe the die is cast. Our rampant and ballooning global population puts ever increasing strain on this planets limited resources. As I've posted elsewhere... You think things are bad now as we squabble over oil and minerals? Just wait until the wars for clean water begin... We haven't seen anything like that in all of human history, folks, and it's coming...

Our species is facing a genetic bottleneck. If we don't destroy ourselves and our chance on this planet in the next 100 years, we will likely be interstellar, still facing a genetic bottleneck... The fact is that we've so successfully evolved that we've lost our sustainability by overrunning our environment. The span of modern human conquest on a geologic timescale is absolutely minuscule. It is the ultimate human vanity that we thought we could ignore the chain of contingency. Every species that has ever lived has gone extinct. The question is: How long before we join that great hall?...not if we will.

Like I said, we face an impending genetic bottleneck, and we will emerge changed, if we emerge at all.

[AlexSFCA]

138. brainstorming

Thank you Glider and others who are contributing. Concise messages are being born here to educate our non-political friends. Education is the first step as it will allow the innocent public to recognize what is happening - this is needed to effectively resist. On my facebook it only reached a few friends who really got it and started discussions with their friends and families. Most others just liked the post or dismissed it entirely (no politics on facebook kinda). But it's a start.

Your comments are pushing my thoughts to the next level. Let's also start summarizing some basics and still so many questions left:

1. Global war on 'liberalism' has been instigated by duginist Putin with the help of Surkov. Core ideology: Liberalism is the cause of all evil in the world including 'jihadist' terrorist attacks.
It's been going on for years but when did it start?

2. Dugin's core philosophy is that 'liberalism' can only be eliminated if USA is destroyed. Putin has been trying to undermine US democracy for years. My logical conclusion led me to this: he has been exploiting American conservatism and contributing to directing right wing propaganda to the right direction. For those who have been following/tracking right wings, are there any links between key right wing wakos and Russia? Have their philosophy changed over the years and how? Have any of them ever visited Russia any links at all (Limbaugh, Coulter, Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, etc.). Any propaganda websites that got initial funding from Russia? - maybe hard to track. Did Bannon get any money from russia?

3. Why are we having this war? Liberalism is fundametally incompatible with authoritarianism. It is a major threat to Putin's dominance.

4. Let's also think about pre-putin era. Did we have as many jihadist terrorist attacks?

5. Jihadists attacks are used as fear to gain power through democratic means. Other wedge issues of abortion, gays, establishment, etc. are needed to gain enough votes.

6. Putin's plan is to be the world's dominant superpower. He has been trying for years to brainwash (successfully) his entire popultion that the liberal West is the root of all evil.

7. Putin would not help to put trump in power if it would make America better in any way. He will present it as liberalism destroyed the west.

8. Here an epiphany I had today: it is possible that Putin wants to use America to enrich Russia first: cancel sanctions, solicit massive investments, trade deals. Ironically, the US will make Russia rich before Putin destroys us completely. Russia has the largest natural resources in the world beyond just oil. I say this, because simply destroying US does not automatically make Russia wealthy and I'd think it is important to him. Economy is failing there. Another way to remain in power is to start a war - massive draft in Russia (like WWII). Hunderds of thousands of unemployed, demoralized youth - send them to war sounds about 'right'.

9. Trump moving so aggressively starts to quickly alarm everyone. I would argue it is not the smartest strategy? Trump is nowhere as smart ir even informed as Putin - he was an easy target addicted to the idea of becoming like Putin. I think he is likely on some sort of experimental drugs used by FSB to desensitize. We may see him slowing down after speaking with Putin - do not be fooled by this move if it happens. The media will swallow it - "he was just overwhelmed and now learning how to be president".

10. Trump is hortified to face the truth (again drugs are needed for him to even function). Things did not go as planned - the world hates him. But he knows what Putin will do if does not proceed with dugin's plan?

[orangecrush]

141. Thank you!

Very informative post.

I believe many here are still in shock, and unaware of the full scope of what we are facing.

[AlexSFCA]

142. interesting read about Dugin

Last edited Sat Jan 28, 2017, 08:11 PM - Edit history (1)

https://blogs.shu.edu/diplomacy/2017/01/international-nationalism-the-long-arm-of-the-alt-right/

"He also suggested that Russia utilize its operatives to encourage separatism within the U.S. by fomenting tensions between whites and ethnic minorities in an effort to both destabilize U.S. institutions and encourage the implementation of isolationist policies."

Terrifying truth. It only supports my hypothesis that right wing propaganda might have been sponsored by putin's machine, perharps, in a way that even those personas wouldn't know - through various foundations.

[Ligyron]

153. Kick and rec.

hmmmm, could be...

[InformedElitist]

154. will it be worth it?

I'm also fairly new to the forum (but I've lurked on and off for years), and I keep meaning to post a similarly long thread about my concerns, which dovetail with yours.

I've honestly thought for years that the US has been in decline my whole lifetime (since Reagan). Now, we're just a late-night tweet storm away from oblivion. I've thought about just finding work overseas for a few years, but I wanted to see how the elections in Europe turn out first.

But in terms of staying here, assuming we somehow get out of this alive, will whatever is left be worth saving and building on? I'm not convinced that the answer is yes, yet my instinct is to fight.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

159. The scenarios you describe make sense to me.

Though I admit I'm no expert or even intermediate in geopolitics.

Another DUer mentioned ballooning population being one of the drivers of this mess. I absolutely believe that. As resources and elbow-room decrease, people get uglier. You can see it everywhere on the micro level, land snatching for "development" in every locale. The more crowded, and hotter, and uglier we make the environment, the uglier the people with no way out (most of us) will become. And in turn, the guys selling off the last remains also become uglier.

But the question is, what do we do? It would seem better to be blissfully ignorant, but we don't have that luxury.

[bdamomma]

160. K&R

please read for those who did not

a lot to take in but sleep on it and it starts to make sense that light bulb will go on!

[Ligyron]

162. Excellent OP and thread.

Quite facinating and scary as hell if this is what's going on. Read about Dugin the other day in GilderGlider's OP on him and been looking for the Bannon connection.

Are these guys really that smart and this co-ordinated?

Alot has to happen yet for their plan to really work if so.

No doubt that Trump is just a useful fool in all this.

Whether they actually planned this or their just lucky so far the agenda seems about the same in either case.

The money is consideration that makes this seem rather wild. Can't see the corporatists going along with some of this.

[AlexSFCA]

164. we'll see

There is another excellent post on explaining Rex Tillerson's money connection. In short, Putin, has a pipeline going through Crimea and could not allow NATO be anywhere near so annexation of Crimea was critical. Well, ExxonMobil has invested a lot of money in it and the sanctions need to be lifted to continue this massive project. But don't get swayed solely by this, it is only one part of it with key element and driver being duginism:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028555281

Remember, Bannon famously said his plan is to destroy the government. He is being quite succesfull so far. Now I do not know if it means rebuilding the government afterwards. We do know that he is hard-line ideologue with pure neo-nazi ideology and maybe as smart as hitler. He is driven by the idea of preserving majority white christian population in the US, but even more so - to preserve all power in white hands. We will see it through policies, e.g.:
1. Education - large scale voucher program, destroying existing public education state by state and channeling 'Christian' based edication in private schools. De facto segregation by race.
2. Housing - segregation

Now back to what is going on right now with muslim ban. After reading numerous alt right websites over the past few months:
Bannon and Putin will launch an aggressive war on muslim world: nothing short of nuking a large population from the earth. That is why muslim registy being actively currently developed by a company in Palo Alto is critical: we have many muslims in the US - they expect massive backlash. Registry will allow much better control.

Natanyahu is also right wing ideologue - we will be witnessing elimination of Palestine - this is no doubt. This is how the conflict will be resolved. Moving the US embassy to Jerusalem is first step to induce a conflict needed to justify such measure.

I am still trying to understand how North Korea will be resolved.

Corporations do not have as much power as you think, they are at a mercy of current administration. Trump is a bully and can crash a stock with a tweet. They will be investing massively in info war at first but eventually may be investing heavily in Russia too.

Per Dugin's core vision, the US must be destroyed, meaning its world's dominance, economically and cultrually must be destroyed. This allows a creation of multilateral world - Fourh Political Theory - 4pt. It is de facto authoritarian.

P.S. I do not necessarily think that trump is a pure ideologue like bannon but I think he is addicted to the idea to be like putin and will stop at nothing. I even think that he is really scared himself and has to be medicated to perform but putin has plenty of info on him to make sure he doesn't do anything stulid. The plan may make trump the richest person in the US. So that embarassing video very well may exist because it would humiliate him beyond repair and we all know how narcissists are. Putin is a clever pschycologist.

[IamFortunesFool]

165. North Korea

DPRK will not be resolved without involvement from China. China is an unknown variable in this Dugin/Bannon equation. I suspect that Russia and China have more allied interest than we may suspect, by simple virtue of geographic and economic proximity. China could well agree to be appropriated by Russian and western propaganda in exchange for our private facilitation of their economic and military conquest of Asia. Would tying a neat Chinese ribbon across the Asian/Pacific region benefit the proposed cabal? I think, at least in the short term, yes.

[AlexSFCA]

166. good point

Basically, China needs trade like oil from russia. In exchange China will take care of NK.

[IamFortunesFool]

167. It you remember, the very day that Trump announced our withdraw from the TPP China's president

spoke at length about China's intention to fill the void of economic leadership in the region. China's military being activated against DPRK would force regional military submissiveness and finish the work they've already been pressing with their artificial island building and bullying in the South China Sea. The timing is too convenient to be coincidence...there is too much at stake for those in positions of power to leave these things up to chance.

[AlexSFCA]

168. sounds logical

The new multilateral global order is unraveling so fast, I think the economy would be unstable due to trade wars and uncertainty.

[IamFortunesFool]

169. Economic instability is a boon to the cabal in the short term...

The more unstable the global economy becomes, the louder and more resonant the nationalist and isolationist call will become. The true believers that support this new fascism won't be bothered by the facts of how it started...

[AlexSFCA]

170. true

No doubt they will find a way to blame Obama for failing economy.

[IamFortunesFool]

171. Probably...

Or it will be vaguely subscribed to the general growing global instability. Most people have no idea how the economy works. If the American people understood anything about our economy, they would never have swallowed Trumps lies to begin with.

[AlexSFCA]

172. Assange?

Based on everything I'm reading Julian Assange is basically helping to fullfill duginist putin's vision by helping destabilize governments. Anyone has more details? Is he financed by Putin?

[GliderGuider]

173. I think they are ready to make their big move.

It's not going to be pretty. My analysis here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028563629

[AlexSFCA]

174. About Dugin (essential read)

Found a very insightful article about Dugin. It's by Glenn Beck, I know! But he knows about far right more than we do. He calls Dugin "much worse than Hitler."

www.glennbeck.com/2016/08/01/understanding-russian-alexsandr-dugin-and-the-inevitability-of-ww3/amp/?client=safari

Terrifyingly spot-on. Dugin appears to be more hands-on than we thought:
“What Trump just said about NATO is exactly what Putin wants. He wants a weakening of the European Union. He wants a weakening of NATO. He wants a guy who is stirring things up, causing problems, causing conflict. Dugin is looking for people all over the world that are causing hatred, division and revolution to fester and grow. It is critical that you understand that. Otherwise, you’re going to be played,”

Trump got played! He might be so delusional that he even beleives that what he is doing is good for everyone! Bannon, on the other hand, knows exactly what he is doing and does not care about having a prosperous nation as long as it is christofascist.

"With the unrest across the world, there’s little doubt we’re headed for World War III."

[pat_k]

175. kick

[jaxind]

178. To AlexFSCA

Is there any chance that the connection between tRUMP and Putin will be found out??

[AlexSFCA]

212. maybe

However, if trump is succesfull in lifting sanctions and then working with puting on 'defeating isis' then the public at large may no longer care. Because by that time trump would have succesfully turned putin into our ally. Nevermind, that putin has zero interest in defeating isis - he needs them for fear factor so he can remain in power.

[Demsrule86]

180. We can and will stop the orange nightmare.

[brooklynite]

185. Consider that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton aren't obsessing as much as people here...

"We're doomed!" rants really don't help.

[GliderGuider]

189. The "We're doomed" rants do help in one regard.

If they are sufficiently well founded, they may inspire some here to prepare themselves for the coming breakdown in civil order. That could save lives. I know that's my goal here.

[brooklynite]

191. Mike Huckabee will be happy to sell you an emergency food supply...

...as for me, I'm assuming we'll muddle through...just like Obama and Clinton.

Like you, I've lived in a dictatorship. This isn't it.

[GliderGuider]

192. This isn't it - quite yet.

But that's where your country is headed.

What gave you the idea I've lived under a dictatorship? Do you count Canada or France? Those are the only places I've lived.

[AlexSFCA]

193. not yet

Denial might the best coping strategy. I am not talking about totalitarian dictatorship but autoritarian oligarchy aka 'managed democracy'. Full transition may take a few years but is typically faciliated by major conflicts, like the one trump/bannon is actively trying to provoke.

Everything that I wrote is not a hypothesis but publicly available information about how Putin has been trying to undermine democracies across the globe with Dugin being brain power behind identifying individuals/parties that can destabilize governments. In the US and Europe, the funding has been focused on far right movements pushing towards isolationism and spreading islamophobia.
E.g., Alex Jones is frequent on Kremlin's propaganda channel - RT. Other right wing puppets likely get funding through various foundations and may not even be aware if it's coming from Russia.

I would not even be surprised if that truck driver attack in France was false flag or intentional provocation to make sure Marine Le Pen rises (which she did).

Trump himself has been living in conspiracy theories for many years and may no longer distinguish between facts and alternative facts. He is an opportunist and con man addicted to the idea of being like putin. He never read US constitution. Putin's goal is NOT to make a partner of friend with US. His goal to destabilize our governemnt and country, to discredit us as legitimate democracy and to make we never ever again tell him what and whT not to do on his for ambitious expnsion of Russia. Bannon is just the man for that who is on record stating that his goal is to destroy the government and destroy the state.

[butdiduvote]

194. All of these posts about people not "getting it"

are making me feel like I'm out of the loop on some kind of inside joke.

[Skittles]

198. idiotic Trump voters

for the most part they still have ZERO CLUE what they, with the help of voter suppression, Russia and the FBI, have actually done

[pablo_marmol]

195. Excellent OP deserving of a.......BUMP. NT

[pablo_marmol]

196. More on this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2016/dec/19/trump-putin-same-side-new-world-order

[AlexSFCA]

197. great article

I wish I had read it when it first came out so it would help me to solve the puzzle much sooner. Bannon is also a big fan of Dugin (google it). In a nutshell, Russia follows 4th political theory (=authoritarianism) and Trump was sold on the idea. I do not beleive that Trump understands all of it 100%.
I feel like he is mostly following whatever Bannon tells him. If there is a way for him to see the evil of bannon and putin, maybe through Ivanka/Jared, maybe there would be hope?

The turning point will be France election in May. If Le Pen loses, there is hope. Because they need Europe to implement the new world order.

[pablo_marmol]

201. You've read my mind........and I thank you deeply for your OP.

I knew nothing of Dugin before -- hence had no ability to connect dots. Too many of my friends here in California think we're untouchable. They have no clue about what we're up against.

I do not beleive that Trump understands all of it 100%. I feel like he is mostly following whatever Bannon tells him. If there is a way for him to see the evil of bannon and putin, maybe through Ivanka/Jared, maybe there would be hope?

Agreed. And yes.......Le Pen must lose.

[kentuck]

199. Robert Reich's Resistance Report from today. Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/RBReich/videos/1463582200321038/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED

[Stinky The Clown]

204. Please watch this short video clip in another DU OP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028606817

[pablo_marmol]

211. Yeah........I think Pelley's "No question" was irresponsible.

This irrational confidence/optimism is what Putin et al are counting on.

[regnaD kciN]

213. Well, it seems to me that, from what you've written, it's all over...

...and we have zero chance to stop the coming authoritarian oligarchy.

So, let's take our mind off politics, accept the new order, and go watch some television. Or play video games. Or have a few drinks. After all, if there's nothing we can do, we might as well get as much private enjoyment out of life as we can.

Isn't that the logical response to the scenario you painted?

[AlexSFCA]

214. no

I said I do not know how to stop it. But through collective thinking, there are fresh ideas being born.

1. Biprtisan coalition (McMullin leads the group)
2. Dissapointed trump voters - we need to make allies with them. They need to be vocal and visible in order to amplify.
3. Trump's base is not growing and might be (slowly) shrinking - see above.
4. Alt right activists are not brave and are afraid to come out for fear of losing jobs. Virtually, all major businesses and corporations are on our side. Alt right remains mosty online and its ability to grow is currenty crippled.
5. Independent press and media remain resilient and some obvious flops by Conway and Trump helped us in the past week. We own ALL comedy.
6. The courts are still powerfull - trump didn't get a chance to stack federal courts (over 100 judges pendig) with swamp yet.
7. If we have a major attack/conflict - it will be most likely attributed to trump. People who will suffer and their families will be very vocal - there will be no time for mercy and apologists. This means that, as of right now, we are able to control the narrative.
8. Trump is nowhere near as smart (or as evil?) as putin so we may have overestimated his ability to destroy the world.
9. France election in May is extremely critical. If Le Pen loses - the new world order is in peril. Putin and trump will need europe to proceed. More importantly, it will mark the end of this dangerous populist movement.

All of the above gives me hope that we may survive till 2018 elections. Honestly, I am not certain that congress will pass infrastructure bill - so no jobs (loss for trump). Trump has created a lot of republican enemies in the congress already. Obamacare repeal and replacement is a huge flop already.

The question is how to take the senate back? We need to be strategic. Residents in reliably blue state should probably help senate candidates in competitive states.

[MFM008]

215. Personally, I think this democracy will out live him.

Just my opinion.

[AlexSFCA]

216. let's follow up on this in a few months

Trump is actively hammering our court system and individual judges. He does not respect the process. To him, the judicial branch of government is an unnecessary obstacle that reduces government efficiency. Putin solved it by getting rid of non-loyal judges and threatening the rest so they always make pro-kremlin decisions.

[Caliman73]

218. One difference

I may be foolishly optimistic in stating this but I think that there is a fairly fundamental difference in Russia and the US historically and culturally that makes Trump's plan infinitely harder than what Putin did.

Historically, Russia went from an absolutist monarchy to an authoritarian form of communism where power was controlled by a dictator through repression. From there, as the system appeared to be collapsing, Gorbachev tried to maintain some functionality by opening the USSR up a bit, but he could not stop the collapse. When Yeltsin and Putin were reforming the CIS and Russia, they had a lot of room to work with. The country was a shambles, so a little bit of freedom and some economic good news was welcomed and Putin became really popular. He has since cracked down on those freedoms, but not to the extent that he wants to, not yet. For him, he has fertile ground to work with, the Russian people are somewhat used to, historically, being under authoritarian regimes. They have not tasted freedom to the extent that they will die for it. I think that they would be okay with a little bit of economic comfort and would not revolt against being dictated to.

The United States has grown up under at least, the illusion of being free. While we have accepted more authority, we still have a fairly clear line, as witnessed by the Acting AG refusing to implement the ban, the massive protests that followed, and the courts recently ruling to stay the ban (issuing an uncharacteristic statement about their opinion that the law will not withstand legal scrutiny). One thing that Republicans have always been good at (and I mean this in the sense of "for democracy&quot is that the over reach. They are so hungry for power that they jump before everything in their plan is set, then they get punished for it.

2010 was one of their biggest victories. They really did a number on the country, but that is very slowly ebbing and there has been resistance. Getting Trump into office was good for people like Bannon and Putin in a sense, but because Trump is so bumbling and stupid, they may have gotten more than they bargained for. Trump being Trump, is maintaining a motivation of resistance in the country that I think, will grow as he continues to over reach.

As you said up thread, we need France to remain Progressive, and Germany to stay the course as well. Here, we need Ginsberg & Breyer to stay healthy. We need to not only protest but to really start organizing and push to take back the Senate, House, and any local races that we can get. We need to really work on fair redistricting, or alternatively, to get control of State legislatures in 2020 in time for the census so that we can do to the conservatives what they did to us in 2010. It is s tough fight, but it is the fight for life in America they way we have known it.

[AlexSFCA]

219. true

Of course, there is no comparison between Russia and USA histories. The point is that Trump's administration is using the same techniques. Whether he will succeed it's a big uknown but he did succeed winning the election using Putin/Surkov methodology.

One of the main differences is that the US has a robust court system, something that, of course, Russia did not have. Recent developments show positive signs. However, we may not be able to predict what happens if an event of 9/11 magnitude occurs under Trump. He appears to be actively soliciting it.

Independent press, of course, is MUCH more resilient here. It appears, so far, they are holding strong. This is due to the fact that mahority of US population opposes Trump so it is good business for media. Not to mention that corporate America also appears to oppose Trump for now.

To answer my own question. I do beleive that we can stop Trump but it won't happen on its own. Protests work but they have to be strategic to have significance - women's march was great but it may get diluted by science marches, environmental marches, lgbt marches, tax marches, etc. We need to find a way to consolidate somewhow, build coalitions.

I dream of bipartisan march against Trump: e.g. "We the People" march or "Constitution" march, or "American march". The message being is that Trump is against American values = anti-American. We can't let his supporters claim that they are the 'real' Americans.

Another fact is that Trump won not by being trump but rather in spite of it. He won because of the techniques he used (he would have never won without Bannon). This means trump is no putin, he makes too many mistakes that are obvious and, by all accounts, he is mentally ill.

There are reasons to be cautiously optimistic at the moment. But if 2018 does not go well for us, there will not be much room for optimism. Not to mention the destruction that will be done by 2018 (Healthcare, Medicare, SS, Environment, Education, etc.).

And by all accounts, France election in May may be the most significant event coming which will determine the global order.

[bdamomma]

217. K&R

just keeping this in view of those who have not seen this.

[Leghorn21]

220. Alex!! Is it possible for you to repost your original text here without all the comments?

That way, fresh eyes can see your amazzzzing post - "the beginning, part deux"? (plus my old iPad won't crash trying to load all the comments!!) (selfish me!)

Also, GG said

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8635961

this morning