So What is A Good Conservative?

[Quartermass]

I really would like to know, what is a good conservative? Are there any in existence at all that you like? Why do you like them? Do they have to support the issues you support?

[3waygeek]

1. An oxymoron n/t

[COLGATE4]

2. More likely, a genuine moron

[FarLeftFist]

60. DUzy!

[barbtries]

70. lol

i wrote precisely the same response.

[abelenkpe]

3. Eisenhower. Nt

[hifiguy]

13. +1 nt

[MicaelS]

32. Eisenhower was a warmonger of the first order...

The fascination of some people on the Left with Eisenhower, simply because of his anti MIC speech as he left office never ceases to amaze me. He presided over the enormous buildup of the US Nuclear Arsenal, and regularly contemplated Thermonuclear War with the USSR. Eisenhower was no Dove.

http://hnn.us/articles/47326.html

Peace activists love to quote Dwight Eisenhower. The iconic Republican war hero who spoke so eloquently about the dangers of war and the need for disarmament makes a terrific poster-boy for peace. The image of Eisenhower as the “man of peace” is so useful that I almost hate to burst the bubble. But if you look at the historical record there is no escaping the other Eisenhower: the Eisenhower who said “he would rather be atomized than communized,” who reminds us how dangerous the cold war era really was and how easily political leaders can mask their intentions with benign images.


Early on, he noted in his diary what he later said in public: nuclear weapons would now be “treated just as another weapon in the arsenal.” “We have got to be in a position to use that weapon,” he insisted to Dulles. That became official policy in NSC 5810/1, which declared the U.S. intention to treat nuclear weapons “as conventional weapons; and to use them whenever required to achieve national objectives.” By early 1957, Eisenhower told the NSC that there could be no conventional battles any more: “The only sensible thing for us to do was to put all our resources into our SAC capability and into hydrogen bombs.” He found it “frustrating not to have plans to use nuclear weapons generally accepted.”

His whole reason for fighting was to prevent the communists from imposing a totalitarian state in America. He had long recognized the irony that nuclear war would lead to the very totalitarianism he abhorred. But he confessed to the Cabinet that he saw no way to avoid it: “He was coming more and more to the conclusion that … we would have to run this country as one big camp—severely regimented.” After reading plans for placing the nation under martial law, giving the president power to “requisition all of the nation’s resources–human and material,” he pronounced them “sound.”

It is hard to give up the “man of peace” that peace activists have come to admire. And perhaps it’s not fair to give him up. After all, we can never know what another person truly believes. But the record of the other Eisenhower is so consistent and so extensive (I’ve offered only a sampling here) that it is hard to ignore. More importantly, it is dangerous to ignore, because the other Eisenhower was the one who made actual policy. It was a policy that put anticommunist ideology above human life, made by a man who would “push whole stack of chips into the pot” and “hit ‘em … with everything in the bucket”; a man who would “shoot your enemy before he shoots you” and “hit the guy fast with all you’ve got”; a man who believed that the U.S. could “pick itself up from the floor” and win the war, even though “everybody is going crazy,” as long as only 25 or 30 American cities got “shellacked” and nobody got too “hysterical.”

[abelenkpe]

38. He expanded social security

Signed civil rights laws protecting the right to vote and used federal troops to enforce desegregation in the south. The US wasn't alone in building up it's nuclear arsenal and late in his presidency he regretted giving the MIC so much sway. He's more liberal than many in congress who label themselves democrats today. The OP asked if there were any good conservatives and Eisenhower was one of the only reasonable ones that came to mind.

So you're against war? Most are. Sadly no one in congress gives a shit democrat or repuplican given our recent history. War in afghanistan? War in Iraq? Libya? Threats to Iran and Syria? How about the war on terrorism or war on drugs. Ask the people and they will tell you all these wars should all end. Ask our elected officials and they'll work feverishly to sell you on the need for more war. Heck the pentagon openly tells us they work with media to do so. Do I like it? No. But between a war monger that expands social services and a war monger that cuts them....

(Eisenhower also had the highest income tax rate at 92 percent and at at the time union membership among workers was at it's all time high. If republicans could resurrect Eisenhower they'd win. Instead they run lunatics.)

[Neoma]

64. Well, he made the military industrial complex from scratch.

The thing with Ike that you have to keep in mind is that before WWII, our military wasn't even remotely capable of protecting our country from attack... Or joining in WWII to help the Europeons. Not many commanders survived WWI, and when WWII came around, we had horribly inexperienced young soldiers and not many of them either. Equipment was underfunded and a complete joke. The military industrial complex was created to very quickly solve this problem.

That's the more likely reason it took so long to help Britian, other than the sudden push from Pearl harbor (which was a good excuse for FDR to join the war that he already wanted to join.)

Now, as far as nukes... He was a military man, and honestly, this was back in what, the 50s? People back then thought that radiation was HEALTHY for you. In his mind he could have thought, "Right! It works and all this radiation is good for the lungs anyhow!"

And wasn't that around the time they discovered how gruesome Stalin was?

[The Magistrate]

4. One Is Tempted, Sir, To Quote General Sheridan, In Slight Paraphrase....

"The only good conservatives I ever saw were dead."

[RZM]

18. Disgusting

This kind of thing hurts the left. It's pure fodder for RW arguments that the left is violent and wants to kill conservatives.

[randome]

23. Well, let's not rule anything out just yet.

[The Magistrate]

36. You Keep A Tight Clutch On Those Pearls, Sir...

Conservatism as a legitimate political movement is dead in this country; all that remains are reactionary radicals bent on overthrow of the existing order, by any means necessary to achieve their destructive ends. It is the duty of all citizens to resist this vicious and Anti-American endeavor.

[RZM]

37. Like I said. Disgusting

Your lame attempt to justify your desire for violence isn't working on me. In the end, you're no different than those radicals on the other side that talk violence (emphasis on 'talk'). Thank heavens most people dont agree with you or them.

[socialist_n_TN]

40. Bullshit. Resistance to fascism BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY....

is my motto. You can try to make "accomodation" to the Nazis all you want Mr. Chamberlain, but I will FIGHT the fascist bastards. Because I know that if they get into power, we're all dead anyway. Might as well go down fighting.

[RZM]

41. Nothing's stopping you

Last edited Fri Dec 30, 2011, 04:45 AM - Edit history (1)

Why aren't you getting violent now? You live in a red state with a Republican governor, two Republican senators, a majority Republican House delegation and a General Assembly with Republican majorities in both houses. One would think if you're so dedicated to ending fascist tyranny, you'd already be getting violent.

Or are you of better service to the revolution typing endorsements of violence on message boards and leaving the dirty work to others?

[HangOnKids]

47. Hyperbole

Ever heard of it?

[unkachuck]

42. Thank you, Magistrate....n/t

[Ohio Joe]

55. +1 - nt

[Zalatix]

43. "Do as I say do, not as I do".

Conservatives would be happy to see us all exterminated. But they cry when the same sentiment is hurled in their direction.

Buncha hypocrite crybabies.

[RZM]

44. I've never seen them crying over it. I'm the one crying over it here.

Generally when confronted with rhetoric like you see on this thread, they tend to say things like: 'bring it on, we're better armed than you.'

I've known many conservatives over the years, some of whom are in my family. I've never heard a single one of them say anything remotely like what you describe. I have heard people say such things on the internet. But how much faith can you really put in that? Like the people threatening violence here, it's usually a bunch of tough talk with little behind it.

But that doesn't mean it still isn't harmful. It poisons the discourse.

[Zalatix]

45. I don't see threats here.

Nobody here is talking about killing anyone.

[RZM]

46. I see endorsements of violence

And violent rhetoric. That's pretty close.

'The only good conservative is a dead conservative' is not an explicit threat. But it's an implied threat. That bullshit has no place in decent, civilized discourse.

[HangOnKids]

48. Please get over yourself

This is a Democratic board. You have a problem with that?

[RZM]

49. LOL

So endorsements of violence are ok because it's a Democratic board?

Why is that?

[HangOnKids]

52. You might see endorsements of violence

Take it to the jury and see how this plays out. This is a Democratic board.

[Zalatix]

50. Violent rhetoric? Not even close.

A good Conservative lives by their philosophy. Which means, living on toll roads run by a private company, no pollution regs, no workplace safety laws... etc...

Someone who lives by such rules, which are consistent with Conservatism, would be dead soon.

So many good Conservatives would be dead ones - by their own environment, not by any violence on the part of the Left.

[RZM]

51. That's how you're going to try to justify it?

Seriously?

[HangOnKids]

53. Dude if you have a gripe

Please take it to a jury, then we can get a consensus about the post you find offensive. Simple.

[RZM]

54. Already did

Note that of the four people voting to leave the post alone, only one bothered to say why.

So because the jury didn't go my way, I'm supposed to bow out of the discussion then? Just because 4 out of 6 randomly selected DUers don't agree with me doesn't mean that I should refrain from speaking my mind.

At Thu Dec 29, 2011, 07:31 PM you sent an alert on the following post:



REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

More or less advocacy of violence, albeit in a subtle way. I don't think this kind of thing has a place on DU.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Dec 29, 2011, 07:48 PM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: I was on the fence with this one, as I don't think the poster is intending to advocate violence against anyone, but I do see how it could be taken that way. I think it is better to be safe than sorry with something like this.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: For one, this is a slight paraphrase and an accurate one, imo. Please place these types of responses in CONTEXT.

The poster is NOT advocating violence on any level. Lighten up folks, this post is appropriate.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: I agree with the person alerting on this thread. We shouldn't stoop to FR levels.

[HangOnKids]

56. You Spoke Your Mind

And the consencus was that you were incorrect. Let it go.

[RZM]

57. Nah, I'll pass

Thanks for the advice though.

[HangOnKids]

58. Whatever Dude

Not everything goes your way. You lost this one. Better take it to heart.

[RZM]

59. Depends on what you mean by 'lost'

If you're referring to the jury decision, yes I did lose. That's how the game goes and I accept that.

But just because I disagree with the decision doesn't mean I still don't find that post to be harmful. I'm free to post in this thread as much as I want.

Why do you care so much about what I'm doing? How about you make an original argument about the topic under discussion instead of following me around and telling me to stop expressing my opinion.

[HangOnKids]

61. You Are Posting On An internet Board

People are free to post what they like. I never said you can't post what you wish. I followed the thread because you were very vocal about your feelings and I thought they were incorrect. I never said you should stop posting your opinions. Did I? If you are free to post so am I.

[Zalatix]

63. Yup, I've lost one myself not too long ago.

Sh*t happens.

[Zalatix]

62. Yup, got a problem with that?

I say let the Conservatives move to their own island and destroy themselves.

It's nature, it's PC, and my hands are clean.

[RZM]

65. If that's your opinion, fine

But you attempted to justify somebody else's statement with that argument. I don't think the Magistrate was referring to 'death by lack of environmental regulations.'

In fact, I know he wasn't because as he explained in his response, he's talking about actually fighting people.

[randome]

5. The idea that government should stay out of our private lives...

...is a good one, in general. It should not apply where social issues DEMAND redress, such as the abolition of slavery or gay rights or women's equality.

But that's about it. Usually conservatives insist on applying fiscal terms, as well and that just seems stupid. America would not be where we are today if we didn't have somewhat of a centralized direction of our economy.

A totally free market is bullshit because no one company can give us the advances we need to do things like land on the Moon or stabilize the environment.

[annabanana]

6. Do you mean, like a REAL, you know *conservative* conservative?

One that would conserve what seems, empirically, to be good to conserve?. .Like a liveable planet?

[RZM]

7. Depends on if you are talking about a regular person or public servant

Regarding regular people, I think a good conservative is similar to a good liberal. I'm talking about somebody who respects beliefs that aren't their own, backs up their arguments with evidence, and is willing to hear out the other side, even if they don't agree.

For politicians etc., I'm not sure. I guess somebody who is motivated by loyalty to their country and a desire to make it a better place.

[maggiesfarmer]

27. most intelligent post i've read all day (including my own)

[RZM]

29. Thanks!

[Scootaloo]

8. Technically, a liberal

They would want to conserve things. You know, like our safety net, American jobs, the environment, etc.

What we refer to as "conservatives" in this nation are, almost one and all, radical deconstructionists.

[abelenkpe]

9. Teddy Roosevelt

Square Deal, fought corruption, conservation, busted up monopolies. Abraham Lincoln also good.

Do they have to support policies I do? No, I'm gonna vote against my own best interests. Yes they have to support similar policies. Today's conservative is a bigoted, polluting, corporatist that attacks affirmative action, the EPA, the department of edication and social programs that benefit the neediest among us. Only a self loathing fool would follow them.

[Jazzgirl]

10. There aren't any.

Anymore.

[totodeinhere]

11. A good conservative would be the type that helped LBJ get civil rights and Great Society legislation

through Congress in the face of opposition from Southern Democrats. A lot of people forget that it was Republican votes that put the 1964 civil rights bill over the top. Due to the southerners, there were not enough votes in the Democratic caucus to do it without help from the other side.

Of course, conservatives like that doesn't exist anymore.

[rurallib]

12. what passes for conservatism right now ain't conservative

it is more reactionary.
Good conservative? I think of the original Americans who only killed for food etc.

[Motown_Johnny]

14. my answer to that would be against the rules

and not really serious....




The only good conservative is a ____ conservative!




You can fill in the blank yourself, and no I am not really serious. My point being that there are no good conservatives.

[guitar man]

15. One that's been properly marinated

and slow smoked.... if not prepared correctly they can be really dry, tough and stringy

[Sarah Ibarruri]

16. It's a person who is born angry, envious, filled with hatred, suspicious, authoritarian,

controlling, falsely patriotic, amoral but pretending to be moral, a pro-life faker (as they adore capital punishment), someone terrified that a poor person somewhere might (heaven forbid!) not be breaking his back with work, and someone with the mentality that humans are either landlords or serfs. I have more but I got tired just typing this out. Conservatives make me sick to my stomach.

[Quartermass]

17. Okay, what is falsely patriotic?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

19. Wearing flag lapel pins, crying at the Pledge of Allegiance, then not caring a RAT's ASS about the

people of this country or what happens to them, their lifestyle, their health, etc. etc. etc.

In other words, being in love with the flag, not the country.

[CANDO]

30. Remember "Support the Troops"?

All that really was was a call to support an unnecessary war. Falsely patriotic to the core, in my opinion.

[toddaa]

20. Frank Zappa

He called himself a practical conservative.

[Zorra]

21. Good Conservative (n) An environmentally responsible liberal; a liberal that uses resources frugally

[dawg]

22. Um .... someone cautious like me.

I was tempted to say President Obama, because of the very incrementalist approach he has taken on some key issues, but decided it would be less divisive to hang this label on myself instead.

Under the old paradigm, liberals wanted big, bold changes for the better. Conservatives argued that existing systems evolved that way for a reason, and that abrupt changes are likely to cause more harm than good. Conservatives argue for maintaining the status quo, or, when really needed, making slow incremental reforms.

Under the old definition, President Obama and I are both conservatives. (Him more than me )

But the Republican Party has stood that whole concept on its ear. Today, conservatism means economic royalism, and there are no "good" ones.

[maggiesfarmer]

28. nice post - well thought out

[MrDiaz]

24. RON PAUL

Ron Paul is THE MOST conservative, out of every politician, he votes against absolutely everything that requires the government to provide for the people with the exception of infrastructure, and defense. LOL he is so conservative, that not only do we hate him, so do the repukes.

[Bucky]

25. The only good conservative is a dead...

on, no-apologies defender of the Bill of Rights. Not just the 2nd Amendment, but also the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments too. A conservative should favor, you know, conserving the protections of American's inalienable rights. A conservative should not just profess belief in small government, but actually vote along those principles. Don't bloat up the military with no-bid contracts, don't privatize our foreign policy by handing over security and intelligence functions to no-bid private contractors who don't directly answer to a unified command structure.

I don't have all the answers. I don't pick favorite policy solutions because they're liberal. I pick them because I favor laws that would strengthen the economy, secure a truly free enterprise system, and provide for opportunities for small businesses by curtailing the power of oligarchic firms that act as monopolies and monopsonies. I favor whatever works.

[proud patriot]

26. one that doesn't vote or votes Democratic

[TheCowsCameHome]

31. Hasn't been discovered yet. Sorry.

[gulliver]

33. Ignore the "schtickers" who can't resist the one-liner you may intend them to parrot.

The conservatives have become fairly pitiable. The things they value most aren't in any way wrong. Patriotism, honesty, hard work, being a good neighbor, tradition, family...all used to be right in the conservative wheelhouse (as it is in the liberal). When one thinks of conservative nowadays, though, one does not think of someone who is patriotic and hard working. One thinks Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, etc. "Conservative" has become short for "brainless asshole."

How did conservatives allow themselves to sink so far? When did they stop really thinking about and caring about the country? They get their own TV channel, and whammo, they turn into blithering propaganda crack whores.

[LeftishBrit]

34. Well, there are plenty of good individuals who vote Conservative

As regards good conservative pundits/politicians, however - the only good ones would be those who nominally belong to conservative parties, but generally support liberal/left policies. Such people exist, though less frequently than the other way round.

[Rex]

35. A good conservative is a Park Ranger.

There is no such thing as a 'Good Conservative' when it comes to Republicans. They hijacked the words, just like all the terrorists activities they perform against America.

[bluestate10]

39. If I explained, DU would ban me for advocating violence. nt

[Neoma]

66. I think we're very confused on how to classify ourselves these days.

Canadian conservatives are very different from our conservatives. Look into that.

[Quartermass]

67. Yes, I'm aware that different countries ahve different definitions for liberal and conservative.

[TheKentuckian]

68. Reformed can be pretty awesome, they often have passion.

Recovering types are okay at times but seem really receptive to voodoo economics until they can (if ever) fully break the chains.

[barbtries]

69. an oxymoron nt