General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTPM: Flynn Doesn't Matter. This Is About Trump.
As usual, Josh Marshall cuts to the core of the issues in his Editor's Blog.
A particularly cogent excerpt:
For all that I've been associated with scrutiny of the President's ties to Vladimir Putin and Russia, I've always been skeptical of the maximal claims and arguments. Indeed, I've been skeptical of the whole idea. All the claims about Trump and Russia rely on suppositions which are unproven and hard evidence we don't have. But the circumstantial evidence, the unexplained actions, the unheard of spectacle of a foreign power subverting a US election while the beneficiary of the interference aggressively and openly makes the case for the culprit, the refusal to make even the most elementary forms of disclosure which could clarify the President's financial ties - they are so multifaceted and abundant it is almost impossible to believe they are mere random and chance occurrences with no real set of connections behind them.
Step back for a second and look at this. While certainties are hard to come by, it seems clear that Russia broke into computer networks and selectively released private emails to damage Hillary Clinton and elect Donald Trump. When President Obama took a series of actions to punish the Russian government for this interference, President-Elect Trump's top foreign policy advisor made a series of calls to the Russian government's representative in the United States to ask him to have his government refrain from retaliation and suggested that the punishments could be lifted once the new government was sworn in. Then he lied about the calls both publicly and apparently within the White House. What has gotten lost in this discussion is that these questionable calls were aimed at blunting the punishment meted out for the election interference that helped Donald Trump become President. This is mind-boggling.
Consider another point.
Through the course of the campaign, transition and presidency, three top Trump advisors and staffers have had to resign because of issues tied to Russia. Paul Manafort, Carter Page and now Michael Flynn. Page might arguably be termed a secondary figure. Manafort ran Trump's campaign and Flynn was his top foreign policy advisor for a year. The one common denominator between all these events, all these men is one person: Donald Trump.
As I said above, this has all been happening before our eyes, the train of inexplicable actions, the unaccountable ties and monetary connections, the willful, almost inexplicable need to make the case for Vladimir Putin even when the President knows the suspicion he's under. When I was writing my first post on this topic more than 6 months ago, I had the uncanny feeling of finding what I was writing impossible to believe as I wrote it. And yet, I would go through the list of unexplained occurrences and actions, clear business and political connections, sycophantic support and more and realize there was too much evidence to ignore. It was fantastical and yet in plain sight.
Much more at link: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/flynn-doesn-t-matter-this-is-about-trump
lame54
(39,999 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)Treason is explicitly defined in the US Constitution. Every US citizen ought to know that, too. They also ought to know why it is so narrowly defined in our nation's founding document.
If folks are so ignorant to not understand such things, I cannot help them. I can only suggest that they get to know the constitution and the context in which it was written. This is particularly important with respect to "treason" under our laws.
lame54
(39,999 posts)Way to skirt the rules
longship
(40,416 posts)Here:
Article III, Section 3:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.
Pretty simple and narrow definition. We are not at war with Russia. They may be adversarial, but no rational person would call them an enemy.
BTW, this was included because charges of treason were often used to suppress political opponents. (Henry VIII made a lot of work for the headsman with that.) Madison knew that.
No insult intended, my friend.
NewJeffCT
(56,848 posts)" in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort" would qualify
longship
(40,416 posts)We both have diplomatic missions with each other. Our presidents regularly meet. I might be generous and call our relationship somewhat adversarial. However, only madness would call it war, or us enemies. What sane person would want that?
Especially solely to be able to promote a charge of treason!!!
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)... charging him with being an asshole.
The "legal" bar is a winger TP right now ... the patriotic bar should be ours no?
longship
(40,416 posts)I mean, read the definition in the constitution.
The only way treason can be invoked here is if we are either at war with Russia, or they are otherwise our enemy. Who in the fuck wants that?
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)... direct charge its more important to bring the light to the MiniPootin admin via Flynn right now.
JMHO
longship
(40,416 posts)I am baffled about this treason talk, when it is so clearly and narrowly defined in the constitution. Make no mistake. SCOTUS will be acutely aware of this when it unanimously overrules such charges.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)... and on the right are putting the bar at legality vs patriotism.
I've read too many post here being way too technical on the issue of bringing negative light to the KGOP
longship
(40,416 posts)Treason is in the latter category. Thank you, James Madison and the US Constitution, that treason is off the table for mere political opposition.
Flynn no doubt violated laws, just not treason laws.
On edit: get him for the charges which will stick.
longship
(40,416 posts)HAB911
(10,520 posts)Jack Kingston
Rex Tillerson
Steve Bannon
Donald Trump
randome
(34,845 posts)Dolt45 is scared. He knows the game is up.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]
NewJeffCT
(56,848 posts)is maybe the biggest example of chutzpah I've ever seen.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]
Cha
(320,140 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)The fact he has gotten away with so much for so long has contributed to a colossal hubris.
And same can be said of the Republican party including Sessions and McConnell.
Also, both Trump and his son-in-law Kushner are desperately and deeply in debt.
UTUSN
(77,795 posts)Predictably, Bill O'LOOFAH said, "It *ends* with FLYNN" (nothing to see here).
I say that *everything* goes back to DRUMPF, that all of the truly DEPLORABLE people he surrounds himself with are the low quality scum who are the only ones willing to kiss his ass, like the second tier and below has-been celebs willing to do it on his reality circus. The whole bunch are flawed in all categories of morality/immorality, greed, cravenness, everything. Nothing "ends" with FLYNN or any one of them to come. It's all him.