General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWe are at war. You can pretend we can be one country again, but we can't.
The battle lines have been drawn and the troops are amassing on the field.
I hear many on DU who want common ground between us and the GOP. They want common ground between intelligent professors and inbred rednecks. Sorry, it isn't going to happen.
There is no chance to heal these wounds. Since Reagan, they have declared war on US. Remember "Government isn't the solution, it's the problem"?
That was code, saying we, the liberals, the progressives, the intelligent ones, the reason based community, are the problem and Lee Greenwood is the solution.
It was a declaration of war, although we didn't see it as such.
Fast forward to today - it's clear there's a war going on, and the minute we fight back, we get accused of provocation.
Some here want us to make nice with them. They want us to make nice with people who want minorities dead, women kept and our children indoctrinated with their fairy tales. They want us to make nice with people who think they can change reality just by belieiving in a different one. They want us to make nice with people who won't be happy until the middle class is long gone, and we're back in a feudal system.
Well I am here to say FUCK NICE!
I don't want common ground with these people.
I want a HIGHER ground from them, so if they are in my metaphorical cross hairs I can take them out like the pests they are. I want them gone, and I want them to be tossed to the scrapheap of history.
Do you know what these people think of you? Do you know what they call you behind closed doors - well you can probably guess because Rush has been doing it out in the open. But you women, women who want to make your own decisions - they think you are sluts. They think you are whores. They think you are less human than they are. They think you are incapable of making an intelligent decision.
They are aghast you would question their Iron and Bronze age moral code, and not do what they say. They also train other women to hate you, to view you in contempt.
Do me a favor. Google "Quiverfull Movement" right now. Then after that, google "The Phoenix and the Olive Branch." The latter is a blog run by a survivor of the Quiverfull movement, and she spills the beans on the Patriarchal Slavery that is Quiverfull.
Minorities - they do not believe you are Americans. Here, let me show you a line from De Niro's excellent movie "The Good Shepherd." Edward Wilson, a CIA operative is talking to a Mafioso who asks him what WASPS have to go back to, since the Italians have their families, etc.
Joseph Palmi: Let me ask you something... we Italians, we got our families, and we got the church; the Irish, they have the homeland, Jews their tradition; even the n****, they got their music. What about you people, Mr. Wilson, what do you have?
Edward Wilson: The United States of America. The rest of you are just visiting.
This is what they, the Republicans, think of you. This is how they view you. As visitors. You are not American.
This is what they really mean when they say Obama isn't an American.
It has nothing to do with laws, and everything to do with his skin color and ethnicity.
So play nice with these people?
Sorry, I don't negotiate with terrorists.
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bupkus
(1,981 posts)There is no common ground with these people because they refuse to consider any ground common ground.
They just want THEIR country back. But it isn't their country. It's OUR country.
Enough is enough. No more dealing with traitors. No more negotiating with the enemy.
We want OUR country back. Our country that was ruled by intellect not by superstition. Where government offered solutions to society's problems that only government could handle. Where education was valued for learning, not an opportunity for indoctrination. Where society moved ahead, not back to the Dark Ages.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Does the trick for me every time.
Thanks!
Gregorian
(23,867 posts)&feature=related
The Wes Montgomery, especially, brought me back to the days when I was part of sessions like these. What struck me most about it, recently, was how intelligent and non-conservative it felt. Very soothing in times as rigidly opposed as these.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)
M0rpheus
(885 posts)http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1417086/
http://www.jazzprofessional.com/profiles/Michel%20Petrucciani.htm
*Thanks his grandfather for passing on an appreciation for good music*
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)
Johnny Noshoes
(1,977 posts)Michel Petrucciani.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)
freshwest
(53,661 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)
leftstreet
(36,101 posts)From political 'wars' to class 'wars' to 'wars' for oil and resources
Taverner
(55,476 posts)However, the baby has ran off with the bathwater and turned it into napalm here...
leftstreet
(36,101 posts)They aren't part of the political 'war' so they still have their sanity
Taverner
(55,476 posts)leftstreet
(36,101 posts)You know that, right?
whistler162
(11,155 posts)your hate is showing!
Taverner
(55,476 posts)I hate people who view me and my bretheren as non humans.
I hate them and want them to shut the fuck up.
I hate them and hope they go away. Any way.
I am not a Christian, so loving your enemies is off my table.
If you want someone who loves his enemies, go see Michael Moore.
He's the closest thing you'll find as per a real Christian out there.
As for me, I'm an Atheist, I'm a Socialist, and I hate hate hate Republicans.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Excellent rant, loved this part:
I hate them and want them to shut the fuck up.
I hate them and hope they go away. Any way.
Tigress DEM
(7,887 posts)Thing is, it's not even just about being Christian toward someone or not. It's about existing in the same communities and having common sense and reason become the rule of law.
All the hate you hang onto doesn't touch them, but it wrecks what you can be as a person of real common sense and reason.
Still, I feel perfectly fine hating what they are doing and have been doing and being vocal about it and in my heart and at week moments I feel the overwhelming urge to just hate "them" but I resist because that is THEIR fucking game, not mine.
WE WIN when it's about US and about the TRUTH. THAT is the job I gotta stay focused on.
WE LOSE when we get into the whole US vs THEM shit because they just want to fight and do damage. WE wind up fighting people, labeling THEM as the evil, awful enemies when really people can just get stuck on dumb ass stuff.
I have people I already loved before this shit hit the fan who are drinking the kool aid because the supposed MSM is telling them lies. SO if they are basing their opinions on lies and letting themselves be fooled, I can still tell them the truth and make them accountable for letting themselves be fooled.
The way I look at it is, if I can take back ANYONE who has been indoctrinated, then it's a sweet victory and should be celebrated.
Keeping hate for other Americans out of the equation keeps me in a better state of mind. Still I understand WHY you feel the way you do. It just isn't healthy for me to go there.
Tig
Chan790
(20,176 posts)I hate them. By their deeds they are known. I feel justified in hating them as I hate evil.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)if not for his enemies Moore would not be a wealthy, famous film maker. If I were him I wouldn't hate them either. Hard to hate a goose that keeps laying gold eggs.
Julie
Meiko
(1,076 posts)Is there anything in this life that you enjoy? Is there anything you like to do except make yourself miserable telling everyone how much you hate things. Do you have family you enjoy or are there members that belong to the other side so you hate them too. One of the problems we have in this country today is too much hate and it shows in everything we do, politics, movies,even the way we drive. Hate has permeated everything that was once good in this country.
There was a time when we could live together and agree to disagree, it didn't mean you hated your neighbor just because he was of a different political leaning. It's tragic really it will be the death of us. I'm sorry but I can't buy into the idea that the boogeyman right is out to get me. Hate mongers like Limbaugh will always be with us, I choose not to listen to them.
I believe my side is correct but I do not hate the right for having their own opinion. The system is devised for pro and con, give and take. We would not survive very long as a country with only one party. It's our differences that make us strong and holds us together, not the hate. Everyone thinks their idea is better but we have to share this country we live in. It can't be one groups way all the time. It's not good for the people and it's not good for the country. We have to start listening to each other again. We have a lot of core problems in this country that need to be attacked as a group.
I know that there will always be people like you, you hate everyone and everything that doesn't agree with you. Even when you have your way you are not happy and you just find something else to hate. I believe your kind is in the minority and we will survive as a people and a nation even without your help.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)And willing to admit it
freshwest
(53,661 posts)May be able to flesh it out in terms of fear and self-interest. Is that what we're saying?
Autumn
(44,986 posts)Fuck nice
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
Ohio Joe
(21,733 posts)
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)I have neither hatred nor fear toward those being manipulated by powerful and greedy interests.
The only war worth fighting now is the war for economic justice. Once we accomplish that, much of this hatred and ignorance will fade away.
Tigress DEM
(7,887 posts)
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)IF the working class falls into the error of fascism and cannot be educated out of it, it must be fought.
The RW in this country, personified by the current state of the Republican Party, borders on fascism along with their supporters, even the supporters in the working class. If they can't be educated out of it, it must be fought.
Zultra
(3 posts)How can any same person be a Marxist?
Do you even acknowledge the hundred or so million killed by the Bolsheviks?
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)My Marxist tendency was persecuted more by the Stalinists than any other group.
As to how can any "same" person be a Marxist, ALL of business, and this is ESPECIALLY true of the bigger businesses, nowdays is run on Marxist principles. They just use those principles to screw the working class rather than HELP the working class.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Or are you too stupid to understand that?
hay rick
(7,590 posts)If you aren't angry you aren't paying attention.
Tigress DEM
(7,887 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)"Arguing with one who has abandoned reason is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
I've reached my Popeye Point with these dimwits, addlepates, nincompoops and god-botherers: I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more! I refuse to even attempt to make common cause with people who would happily destroy me.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)"dimwits, addlepates, nincompoops and god-botherers" Right on brother! 
TBF
(32,017 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)that does not mean I am looking forwards to it going hot.
I expect it, but that does not mean I am crazy enough to even look forwards to it.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)The First Civil War was never resolved
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)But I am not looking forwards to it.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)had been completely defeated and that it had better shape up and wise up or else. A philosophy of firmness and forced confrontation with the truth worked very nicely to turn Japan and Germany into responsible global citizens after the Second World War. Reconstruction should have lasted a minimum of thirty years. Then we might have been spared the hordes of neo-Confederates and retrograde goofballs who have been polluting the national discourse for the last 30+ years.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts) coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)(1876 Hayes v. Tilden dust-up) that brought an end to Reconstruction. Essentially Republicans agreed to end Reconstruction in return for securing enough Southern Electoral College support from Florida, South Carolina and Louisiana to put Hayes (the Republican and a Civil War military hero) into the White House, even though Tilden (the Dem) won the popular vote nationally.
A Faustian bargain if ever there were one.
Tigress DEM
(7,887 posts)BUT, it WAS resolved for those with the common sense to stop tearing apart our country and focus on moving forward.
The First Civil War was never resolved
Tig
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)If I had been in charge back then I would have had every Planter Aristocrat "liquidated".
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)Old Testatment on their asses and salted the earth.
But I take your point
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Sherman's march of destruction is one reason for the decades-long resentment against the North. Saying it didn't destroy enough is like Russia saying, "Damn, we should have torched more of Chechnya". And the North had its version of "planter aristocrats", that is, "industrialists", who had no qualms about using child labor or exploiting underpaid adult labor until the workers either died or became too sick to work.
And for that matter, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were "planter aristocrats". Would you have liquidated them?
kctim
(3,575 posts)Been hearing this from the extreme right for decades now.
Sorry, but neither extreme has the numbers of support to bring it about.
The coming second civil war is based on the same thing your opinions of each other are based one: fantasy.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)but current conditions on the ground, like both sides creating the enemy of the other side and dehumanizing it.
Those are pre conditions, read a history book or two. I will not recommend you debrief refugees from actual well civil wars, because you would not get it.
kctim
(3,575 posts)"Current conditions on the ground" are no where near what the two extremes say they are. Those extremes are only creating enemies amongst themselves, not to the majority. The VAST majority of us live, love and get along with our neighbors, family and friends who hold different beliefs.
Tell us something please, how many of those refugees were the results of a civil war that occurred in a country with a stable and free government such as ours? How many of those civil wars were started because 1% of the people didn't get their 'free' health care, educations and abortions? How many were started because government required ALL contribute to the needs of society?
NONE.
March and cry about bankers. Play soldier in the woods. Doesn't matter one bit. The simple fact is that the end of the country is not coming about simply because a very very small percent of the population is not getting everything they want.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)or this lovely trope, "Liberalism is a Mental Disease."
Or perhaps we have all missed the many statements about the insanity of Republicans.
Those my dear are the first steps.
You can use all the lipstick you want on this pig, it is still a pig.
And sadly I am not talking of play soldier or marches in the streets. But I am sure you have no understanding of what I am talking about.
When it comes, you will still refuse to see it, of that I am proof positive, after all we are special and exceptional...
I Love a Mystery
(30 posts)Some of the posters here sound like they belong on those "Doomsday Preppers" shows.
treestar
(82,383 posts)They sure do sound like that!
I Love a Mystery
(30 posts)
Dash87
(3,220 posts)It's the absolute epicenter of passive-aggressiveness. Every other post is always "I'm going to do this and this... you know... when the time comes!"
Yet somehow, right now, according to them, the government needs to be overthrown immediately.
Basically, they're Cheeto-munching losers who live in mom's basement. The only activity they ever do is go to the firing range, and have GI Joe fantasies of UN invasions while playing with themselves to repeats of "Red Dawn." They could shoot a gun, but they probably can't sprint (listing any amount of distance here would be irrelevant) without letting out a few nasally whines and retreating back into their mom's basement with their computer that's filled with porn and World of Warcraft stuff.
Response to Dash87 (Reply #116)
Post removed
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Dash87
(3,220 posts)coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)Bleeding Kansas moments, a la Gabrielle Giffords and the police smashup of Occupy camps).
Civil wars (the hot kind) are horrible and, imho, usually increase the net amount of suffering on the planet by one or more orders of magnitude. Even though hindsight may prove a civil war entirely justified (like our first one), to most of those who suffer its consequences, such justification is frigid cold comfort.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)What I fear, though, is a charismatic leader to unite them towards one common goal. They're already taking (or have taken over) the Republican party. Mitt is a hated dork (by both sides), and is not one of them.
What I'm afraid of is one of the fake "Super-Christian" men with bright, fake teeth, the slicked-back hair, and the energizing personality (think, like those preachers at the mega-churches) screaming about how the extreme right needs to take over and make America "Christian" again (or, when removing the coded words, make America a theocracy and give him all the power).
With that man coming to power, and a religious revival in the country (brought about by a combination of his speaking power /energy, and changes in our culture), things would get very bad.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)As to your charismatic leader, look outside conventional politics, a few are already there and taking form.
I started writing a novel based on this back during the Clinton years. I put it permanently on hold with Columbine. Some of the things in it, based on research on that movement, have happened since.
I have kept up with them. Highly recomend the Southern Poverty Law Center as a place to follow.
But potentially we have four people who could fit the proto leader role right now...and I am sure a couple more are just under the radar.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)And this is not hyperbole or an exaggeration
kctim
(3,575 posts)because the minority group of the Democratic Party with extreme views cannot get along with the minority group of the Republican Party with extreme views?
I don't think so.
Your false intentionally misleading stereotypes of Republicans are just as silly as their stereotypes of Democrats.
Luckily, the vast majority are intelligent enough to know that neither extreme represents the beliefs and values of the average American.
And, luckily, this majority, filled with left leaning and right leaning Americans, will re-elect President Obama to his second term come November.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)civil wars are NOT STARTED by majorities, you silly. They are actually started by MINORITIES, who feel they have but one way open to achieve their goals... that be the ammo box.
Sectarian conflicts, and civil wars can and do become sectarian. do require something closer to a strong minority.
Oh I forgot, the US IS EXCEPTIONAL and none of these conditions we are starting to meet on the ground matter, well because we ARE exceptional and live well, outside of history.
My mistake. Sorry.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Instead of foment change
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)or not.
What you are seeing is the classic denial I heard from many a refugee. Most people do not want to believe things can be that bad, until well, shit they are fully undeniable. It is human nature.
As one put it to me, paraphrase, as part of the ethnic cleansing, "who could believe they were actually killing people?"
This is a common patter in every country around the world. Some acts or events are so outside of the normal course of events that they become plain out impossible to believe. We know of this from Holocaust survivors and the Germans themselves, but it is hardly limited to the "good war."
The US, well read the years before the hot civil war. Even in the midst of the Kansas Little War, people were still in denial this could come to pass in the US.
LiberalLoner
(9,761 posts)coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)themselves," but Daniel Goldhagen and others have pretty much demolished the notion that the typical German (the so-called 'Good German') did not know what that Nazis were up to. Even as the Nazi regime was collapsing on both fronts, massive numbers of 'Good Germans' participated in the forcible transfer of Jewish detainees from one concentration camp to another.
The average German knew full well what Hitler and the Nazis were up to. They may not have known about the gory details of Auschwitz, but they knew enough to make them culpable before history's judgment.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And the typical german BY THE END OF THE WAR knew, in 1935 hardly... and that is what I am talking about
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)inconceivable to the average German in 1935 and probably many if not most run-of-the-mill Nazi Party members. (And I'm reasonably sure Goldhagen would agree also
BTW, if you get a chance, Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners is well worth the time and effort to read.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)RZM
(8,556 posts)And Goldhagen certainly isn't without his critics.
My personal opinion is that peole 'knew,' meaning most people kinda sorta knew, but maybe chose not to think about it too much. But I'm sure feelings ran the gamut. Some probably had a good idea of exactly what was going on, others maybe had a much less realistic view. But I'll be most had at least some inkling that mass murder was occurring. That range of opinion existed among the European Jewish population itself, at least until the death camps were operating in full force from late 1941-on.
The Rosenstrasse affair is an interesting example. That was an action in early 1943 where Himmler tried to round up and deport the last Jews living in Berlin. These were assimilated German Jewish men who were married to non-Jewish women. While they were being detained, their wives went out into the streets and protested in front of the building where they were held. Surprisingly, the Nazis ended up backing down. There's a recent German movie about this, though I haven't seen it.
The incident could be construed as evidence that the forceful behavior of these women meant that they knew full well what was in store for their husbands.
Of course, you could also argue that anybody would be worried and mad if their spouse was going to be sent away. But it does point in the direction that the average German person knew that when the Nazis sent Jews east, very bad things were in store.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)not stayed fully abreast of the criticism of Goldhagen's work, even though I know of it. AFAIK, though, Goldhagen's central thesis - that the average German both knew and approved of the Nazi's genocidal program - still stands.
I am not familiar with Rosenstrasse. I can see I have some significant gaps in my own historical knowledge of the time. Thanks for the tip and I will be checking it out this weekend.
I will say this: even the Pope in Rome knew by 1941-2 what was going down in the killing centers in Poland. So to think that the average German did not understand what 'transport East' meant demands a level of credulity that can't be sustained for very long. (I like your notion of a spectrum of awareness, btw, as it seems to do the most justice to the human experience as I understand it.)
Nadin subsequently clarified that she was referring to the Holocaust being inconceivable to most Germans in the mid-30s, a position with which I also agree.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and could not conceive of it. There were different levels of awareness, just like every other genocide.
The people carrying it out, knew. Their families, especially those who lived at the camps, knew.
The people who bordered the concentration camps, had a knowledge that something was happening, from probably real knowledge to just something bad.
The owners of things like the chemical companies that used slave labor, knew.
Von Braun, knew... the V-2 program used slave program.
The train conductors knew.
The average man or woman in the street not meeting any of these conditions, or married to any of the people in the above group... let me ask you a question, before the whistle blowing at Abu Graib did you think for certain anything like that was going on? For the record, when it came out, I was not shocked, saddened, but not shocked. The transports to the East were done under the same kind of state secrecy.
But in the 1930s the number of people who knew was smaller, and since people did come out of the reeducation camps... I suspect to inoculate those who might think worst thoughts, and at the same time terrify them... that is why I said what I said about the 1930s.
By the 1940s, which is the basis of the thesis by the way, the universe of people who knew was larger.
As to government officials, as early as 1941 the US Government knew about it, from folks who actually made their way to the West... and we chose not to do a thing. Some say we chose not to believe it. Some have accused the US Government of unwilling participation in the holocaust. Suffice it to say antisemitism was rampant in the 1940s in the US... should we make that charge too? It was known all the way to the President. And so did the Churchill Government, by the by.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)tapped into a very well-connected left-wing network here in Los Angeles (IVAW, VetsforPeace, ANSWER, United for Peace and Justice and so on) and we all knew that very bad things were going down in occupied Iraq, atrocities by our own soldiers and mercenaries and so on. But I do not think that I can say I "knew" that Abu Ghraib specifically would be the result, even though I was very well acquainted with the French and British colonial experiences in northern Africa.
Like you, when it came out I was not surprised or shocked. More like it confirmed my worst suspicions. I did say that the establishment would fall back on the My Lai defense ("a few bad apples"
and sure enough it did.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I wasn't. But it did not surprise me or shock me due to academic and life experience, war and atrocities go hand in hand.
Think back to the reaction to it by your not at all aware neighbors. We are fed the same kind of we're great crap...just victorious people don't do these things. Part of the reaction you yourself saw was a classic when national myths are violated.
It's not Germany or the US, it's human nature.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)This though has stuck with me: From the beginning of the Final Solution until the end of WWII, the Office of the Fuhrer received an average of 1500 letters a day from common Germans to the effect of "Hey Fuhrer Hitler, You won't believe what they're doing at the work camp near my village in your name and I just thought you should know so you can put a stop to it. I love you. -Your Beloved Supporter, _______"
You see, it was easier for the average German to deny a reality they saw no way of ending than to face their powerlessness and culpability. It was impossible to believe that a leader they had been conditioned to adore could be a mad man and a paragon of cruelty & evil. It was easier to believe even in the face of overwhelming evidence that things were not as they appeared and that the Fuhrer who had vocalized an intent to exterminate Jews and social-minorities was not actually exterminating Jews and social-minorities.
It is indeed human nature to be willfully-blind to the horror of conditions.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Ike understood, why the forced tours.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)Germany, the scale and scope of the Holocaust may not have been grasped by provincial Germans.
Do you have a source for the 'average of 1500 letters a day'? Not disagreeing with it, but I have read widely in the field and have never encountered that claim. So I'm thinking there may be a significant hole in my bibliographical understanding that I should fill.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)It might have been from the German-to-English translations (which he did) of original documents and German subject-texts in that class. I at one time knew where the citation was for that but the class was over a decade ago and I don't know any longer. I may admittedly have the number wrong but I don't think so, I do recall it being substantial.
It's one of those classes where I wished I'd known at 20 how blessed I was to be in and kept the syllabus. I'd appreciate it more today than then. How many students can take an undergraduate course with someone of that caliber on the subject? I remember being a punk because he worked us harder than undergraduates were used to. 
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)even when confronted with physical evidence of atrocities people can be 'blinded' to it. I think psychologists refer to this phenomenon as 'cognitive dissonance,' the anxiety that arises when someone holds strongly countervailing ideas, e.g., Our dear fuehrer Hitler could never exterminate Jews vs. Germans are exterminating Jews in our dear fuehrer Hitler's name. And the lengths people will go to in trying to reduce that anxiety.
It was the scale of the letter-writing that caught my eye in your original post. Seems directly at odds with Daniel Goldhagen's thesis in Hitler's Willing Executioners, a book I strongly recommend.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)People don't like to criticize their Beloved Leader, and turn his advisers into scapegoats, instead. People believed that "if the king only knew" the BS would stop.
kctim
(3,575 posts)and sizeable support is needed in order for a conflict to escalate into war. If not, the ten thousand or so militia yahoos would have already started one.
The far left and far right extremes do not have even a quarter of the support they would need to start a civil war.
Yes, we are exceptional. Our form of government is exceptional. And because of that, the cries of 'government give me more' and 'government leave me alone' are no where close to having the support needed to start a civil war.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and the Middle Kingdom, I forgot Greece and a few others... and the sun is setting already son.
Tigress DEM
(7,887 posts)Doesn't mean we won't find a way to remain civil, but there is a lot going on with the leaders of the rethugs and what the MSM is putting out that creates a large group of people who vote against their own interest, disbelieve facts and operate on fear. Not to the high degree that the leadership wants, but enough to create a constant friction down in the political trenches.
I wish the vast majority of Americans were intelligent enough to understand that if you have a fact in one hand and a lie in the other, that mashing them up together does NOT get you the truth. The extreme beliefs don't represent the beliefs or values of the average American, but some folks can be scared into stupid stuff when they believe outrageous lies.
AND as election fraud has been proven over and over again and since voter suppression is alive and doing fine in many places, they don't NEED an actual majority to "win" an election. They just have to not get caught at it, persecuted for it until the votes are recorded.
I don't want a war. I'm not here to hate anyone, but if the OP is overstating the problem, you are on the opposite end minimizing it. I really WISH you were right, but I've seen a lot of otherwise intelligent people spout a lot of BS. Used to be only FAUX News watchers were decreasing their intelligence. Now CNN is putting up phony headlines.
I constantly feel like there is just too much to do too many fires to put out to be really effective anywhere. Then I just pick something and get to work, hoping it helps.
Tig
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Even though "you won't understand it"!
Typical nasty comment from that poster.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)"...falsely intentionally misleading stereotypes of Republicans..." Name one Republican in a position of leadership that does NOT sound like Rush Limbaugh?
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)the fraction of the Repukes that have extreme views is roughly 100%. You present false and misleading stereotypes of this century's fascist party - namely, that they're sane.
The majority of Republicans and the majority of Democrats hold moderate positions on most issues and have chosen to be a Rep or Dem because of that Partys position on the issues they care about most.
There is also the problem with how the two extremes define the "other" sides so-called extreme views. The two sides have gotten so ridiculous that anything other than total acceptance of their view is "extreme." Common sense gun laws are "extreme." Marriage is between a man and a woman is "extreme." Not wanting government health care is "extreme." A tax to help those in need is "extreme."
Nothing but blind childish partisanship.
Please find me a single Dem who is as far to the left as the most "moderate" congressional Republican is to the right. The fantasy in your post is that you seem to believe that Repukes are some sort of big tent. They are ALL anti-choice, anti-health care, anti-gay right, anti-environment, anti-public school, anti-union, pro-gun, pro-prison, etc. This doesn't ake any research. Just check the Congressional voting record and see how many Repukes have voted for any legislation propsed or supported by the Dems
Since you're in MO I will forgive your ignorance. I am sure your only access to information is hate radio and Fox "News", so your reality is far from the truth.
kctim
(3,575 posts)Kucinich was so far left he couldn't garner but maybe 10% of votes from Democrats.
If you left your fantasy world for a bit, you would see that in reality, there are different degrees to what people, Republican and Democrat, believe on all of the issues you bring up. There are anti-abortion Democrats and pro-abortion Republicans. There are anti government run health care Democrats and mandate friendly Republicans. Pro 2nd Amendment right Democrats and Republicans who live in fear of their 2nd Amendment right.
The fact of the matter is that you use personal opinion, not fact, to stereotype people as being "anti" whatever issue they don't agree with you in lock-step on. Pretty easy to label people negatively when you are the one defining.
Save your forgiveness for somebody insecure enough to need it. I believe people are responsible for their own actions, not some left or right wing media conspiracy.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)would be if the Republiban were solidly beaten and humbled this fall. They won't even try to work with us or show ANY moderation at all unless and until they've had the electoral stuffing knocked out of them again, and by a larger margin than 2008.
At this point, they still think they're ENTITLED to hold the White House and Congress for all eternity.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)They would have to be utterly convinced that no amount of rhetoric could give them an electoral victory based on their current positions and that they would have to moderate.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)branches of government for 12-20 years to repair the social safety net and reinvigorate the traditions of Western liberalism.
However, I think what would happen in such a Democratic one-party state is that the Democrats themselves would splinter along ideological and possibly sectional lines such that, in effect, we'd have Social Democrats vs. Blue Dog Democrats (with Repigs being a bunch of fringe cranks).
Igel
(35,282 posts)True cooperation means doing what I want and working with me to achieve the only reasonable goals--mine. That's compromise. Anything else is, well, arrogant.
It pays to remember that Reagan and the Religious Right that helped put him in power were a *reaction.*
Once you figure out the answer to the question, "A reaction to what?" then you have the proper response to the OP's question. Until you know what the action and the reaction are, you can't really do much in analyzing the forces at play.
Ultimately the dispute resolves into a number of different kinds of disputes (you have to think fairly abstractly for some of them--they surface in all sorts of different ways), and the disputes go back many generations. What's happened is that the sheer amount of self-righteousness and smugness of privilege ramped up rather significantly when I was a kid as a result of prosperity. Since then self-righteousness has routinely been confused with rightness, and critical thinking with being critical.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)Last edited Sat Jun 30, 2012, 04:53 PM - Edit history (1)
to read more of your thinking on these subjects.
As for self righteousness replacing rightness, I'm reminded of Ecclesiastes: "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity" (words I try to apply to myself as much as to anyone else, but not always successfully
Herlong
(649 posts)Buddha Quote Peace comes from within
Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.
By Buddha
JustAnotherGen
(31,783 posts)I'm done. At this point - I'm also arrogant. We've played nice - they never play nice. We offer kindness and reconciliation - they slap us in the face.
I'm done. Just done.
Igel
(35,282 posts)It was during a lecture on rewards and punishments as motivation in the classroom. The idea was that a reward would increase the behavior you desired and punishment would decrease it.
She'd tried every kind of reward she could think of and had been patient. She'd tried punishment. She decided the entire thing was a crock.
She'd tried praising the bad boys and saying how good it was they were finally doing what she wanted. They were being obedient. This reward produced the wrong response.
She tried punishing them by sending them to the principal, causing them to miss hours and hours of class, showing the class how defiant they were. This produced the wrong response.
Therefore the theory was wrong and she was through with the idea.
The lecturer asked if the kids got any kind of public recognition from their peers for their defiance. "Of course." And did the kid's peers look up to the goody-two-shoes, the nice kids? "No, they were sissies."
"So you're trying to get these boys to behave by making them look like sissies in front of their friends--by insulting them--and you punish them by making them look brave and defiant and make it so they don't have be in class?"
His point: You define "reward" by what the kid wants; you define "punishment" in terms of what the kid defines as punishment. You're right--it's arrogant to define the rewards and punishments in terms of what the teacher thinks should be rewards and punishments. Same for "nice". I've listened to what many said Obama did to be "nice," and most of the conservatives I know found it either meaningless or insulting--picking some point that most didn't think important and yielding on it in some way that most don't care about, or saying how, exactly, the conservatives wanted things done when most didn't.
Some USC folk did some research a few years ago. They asked conservatives if they understood other conservatives and if they understood liberals. They also asked liberals if they understood conservatives and other liberals. They posed a series of topics and asked each to explain themselves--and then to explain the viewspoints and reasons of others of like politics or opposing politics.
They found that a relatively small percentage of conservatives were willing to explain other conservatives' politics. Most who did so were right, although they gave themselves low odds of being right. Their answers didn't always agree with their own views--conservatives who were willing to answer were aware that most other conservatives would give other reasons. Very few were willing to explain liberals' politics. Most were wrong and thought they probably were. Their knew where their knowledge ended and ignorance began.
The researchers found that a startingly large percentage of liberals were willing to explain other liberals' politics. Typically each liberal said every other liberal thought precisely as s/he did; a hefty percentage were just plain wrong in explaining their colleagues' thinking. There was a marked lack of actual empathy and awareness of where one's ignorance began.
A startingly large percentage of liberals were willing to explain conservatives' politics. They were overwhelmingly wrong but said they were highly confident of their answers. And they were overwhelmingly wrong in mean-spirited and petty ways, and gave themselves similarly high confidence levels.
pscot
(21,024 posts)to that USC study. Your abstract sounds somewhat counter-intuitive.
ret5hd
(20,483 posts)DhhD
(4,695 posts)business of the People instead of the Few from the old ruling class who do not need to be taken care of (do not need government or do not need a teacher). (The ruling class of the Few who wanted to continue serving the King of England paying taxes through the Bank of London Pre American Revolution and the Southern Few who had their money in America Pre Civil War.)
To me, this is also like sending an unruly student to the office; he falls behind and the others are rid of his type of society until he returns in worse shape. And others can be sent out too. Then the Few are helping to rid themselves of the People in the classroom. Finally the classroom society has gotten away from the reason for its being there in the first place, to promote everyone FORWARD. Only the Few are getting almost everything that the country has to offer. Some call this the difference between the 1% and the 99%.
It seems to me that every time the Few are in power, more and more of the People are being forced to leave a society of promise or the American Dream.
phantom power
(25,966 posts)skydive forever
(443 posts)Gregorian
(23,867 posts)Today is especially hard for me. I live in a liberal community, yet I'm looking at moving. And that move means risking what I have. And being that I live where the hippies and artists moved after Haight Ashbuy, it's pretty much all downhill from here.
But it's not about me. It's about all of those communities of duped fools who live in an alternate reality. They're dragging the rest down.
former9thward
(31,949 posts)So I assume in November you will be sitting at home cleaning your gun.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)
MineralMan
(146,262 posts)A Revolutionary Bong. 
AynRandCollectedSS
(108 posts)I agree completely and think people that want to try to play nice with sociopaths are living in a fantasy world. It is war and my children's future is what's at stake. I will not negotiate either. 
agent46
(1,262 posts)that has made the rounds over the last couple of decades as the culture war continued to heat up.
That is that Anger = Fear. Have you heard that one? Ever been reminded of it by some rational, sensible adult who knew better than you? A great way to turn people back on themselves and shut them up. No one wants to be a coward.
More and more I'm seeing the subtle social engineering that has gone into pacifying the public for so long that we are now way past the frog boiling scenario in this country and yet...things still haven't gotten bad enough.
Yep. It's time to get angry America. Good and angry.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)to make them gone?
"I want them gone, and I want them to be tossed to the scrapheap of history."
If we're at war, and you won't negotiate, what is the solution?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)running and hiding, I'm sure.
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)MineralMan
(146,262 posts)It's a statement of resolve. A plan actually includes actions you plan to take. Without those, your resolve will simply be ignored.
HALO141
(911 posts)hah
Thought you were serious for a second.
Mockingjay
(31 posts)This battle has been going on for a long time, these people on the Republican side are hostile people, they don't feel anyones pain but their own, they band together like gangs and clicks and they will get you any way they can. I grew up with these people, here in the south, you can't trust them and they will never change....to afraid of their friends shunning them. I only hang out with Liberals and normal people. Obama I think was dreaming thinking they would ever accept him....I can't blame him for trying, I think he knew and wanted to expose their insanity. So now the country has to deal with it...it's going to a long time before things get better if ever.
patrice
(47,992 posts)those of our own Working-Class and "lesser" Americans to continue to vote against their own interests. If these people call themselves Republicans as they do in my state, I guess that's just too damned bad, but if there's a chance of winning the CLASS WARFARE that is being carried out on us, we must cross those CLASS lines to seek solidarity with our own class.
If we can't bring ourselves to do this, there will NEVER be a super-majority to give us a chance against super-PACS, in the voting booths or in the courts. Even when we "win", it'll be splitting margins, and thus creating the co-relate of our blue-dogs in whatever the hip flavor/color of the current election cycle is.
Have your read this yet? http://books.google.com/books/about/Stayin_Alive.html?id=h9acQrZmpmAC It tells the story of just exactly HOW we lost "it" and suggests the way to get it back and yes it does have to do with exactly the things you describe, but Cowie et al are calling for CLASS solidarity as a solution.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)
deaniac21
(6,747 posts)[link:
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Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)not only the Republicans that are in office and the 2-headed liar running for president (Romney), but also the not-really-liberal media, the low-info voters, conservative radio, and conservative billionaire donors.
It's going to be a long, grueling fight for progress with so many enemies and roadblocks on the other side.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)I've spent 2 years seeking common ground with my teaparty sister, who is 9 years older than me.
What I realized a few weeks ago, when she threatened me, was that while I've been seeking common ground, she's been seeking vulnerable moments to attack me.
3 times she has launched unprovoked attacks on me, always when she thought I was particularly vulnerable. The last attack was right after I told her my hours - already part time - had been cut at work, and this was just a few weeks after I'd told her she would never be homeless...that if they lost their home, they could come stay with me.
She has a fancy-schmancy lake front home within commuting distance of NYC. 2,000 sq ft, 4 bedrooms, 3 baths for 2 childless people and 1 dog. And yet when her sil that she claims to love so much was losing her home, they didn't offer to take her in.
Selfish, greedy, self-important and entitled in the worst sense of the word. All of them.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)upthread all the more real because it's grounded in the personal.
Igel upthread said that 'self righteousness' has taken the place of 'rightness.' Your sister illustrates that point.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)I grew up in a family that featured democrats on my mother's side of the family and republicans on my fathers side. No one was extreme in any way. For instance my father loved and respected RFK and JFK. My mother was a democrat and used to joke about canceling out my fathers vote. But as the years went on she was more influenced by my father turning into a republican after her mother passed away.
Family gatherings were always peaceful and respectful. Everyone was quite reasonable until the mid 90s. My mother started frequenting a bulletin board called the Clinton Administration Scandals which pumped out trash about whitewater and then Monica Lewinsky daily weaving the most outrageous nonsense imaginable. She alienated her own sister and brother over her non stop fixation on all the things she read on the internet concerning the Clinton administration.
After 911 My mother and father suddenly started going to church regularly again. They had not gone since I was maybe five. I came back home to visit a few years later after having my son and their home was filled with religious icons, books by Rush Limbaugh and the TV was tuned non stop to FOX news. My brother was openly referring to minorities using the worst most bigoted slurs. No one even blinked much less complain. I asked him not to speak like that in front of my son and was verbally attacked. Since then they have forwarded me the most toxic hateful crap one can imagine and we've gone through periods where I've had to: 1. ask them not to send me that stuff 2. argue about my request 2. go through the silent treatment followed by a handful of decent conversations that ultimately lead to more forwarded nonsense and finally me un-friending them and filtering out their emails. I've been called a brainwashed nit wit. A California nut and fruit. A traitor. And after having to choose between saving the daughter who was developing perfectly and her twin that had no chance to survive but was threatening the survival of the other I'm now blacklisted and forever alienated from the family that raised me.
There may be reasonable republicans out there. But I don't know any. In my own life those that were once reasonable have been fed a steady diet of hate from radio and TV pundits and their churches for going on 12 years now and they are spouting the most hateful rhetoric.
I blame FOX news. And right wing radio.
I don't think there can be any reasoning until that stuff is gone and it doesn't appear to be going anywhere.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)our beliefs is the severance of family ties, one has to ask whether it is worth it. I believe it is worth it, but that is very cold comfort indeed to those who must pay the price.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)I do try. DU is a comfort as you can imagine.
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)I can only spend a few hours at a time with my cousins on my Mom's side. They're all far right; one carries around copies of Beckerhead's book.
I should mention they're all Assembly of God (way-out Pentecostal, Evangelical) types. They're starting to give me static about 'getting saved' because the Rapture is coming, don't ya know!
I will probably end up just staying away from that side of the family eventually, and that's sad!
My aunt on my Dad's side remembers the Depression and FDR. She even rebuked my late Uncle (her younger brother) for using the n-word for the male nurse who was taking care of him in a veteran's hospital.
TrollBuster9090
(5,953 posts)The bottom line is this: Republicans have been fighting dirty for 40 years for one reason, and one reason only==BECAUSE IT WORKS. BECAUSE WE NEVER CALL THEM ON IT. Because we ALWAYS take the 'High Ground'...AND LOSE.
Because nobody has ever STOPPED them from fighting dirty by giving them a taste of their own medicine.
Everyone knows if you negotiate with terrorists, you just invite more terrorism.
Everyone knows if you accommodate kids that are behaving badly, you just encourage more bad behavior.
Everyone knows if you appease a school yard bully, you're only inviting more bullying.
So WHY are we so surprised that when we try to negotiate with Republicans who are acting like political terrorists, their behavior only gets WORSE?
Did we learn NOTHING from the Clinton years? It's important, because they're running exactly the same play! They started out with the idea that Clinton was not legitimate. That somehow only conservative Republicans are ENTITLED to be President, and if somebody is in the White House who is not a conservative Republican they got there dishonestly. And that justifies ANY dishonest tactic used to get rid of them. What did they do?
Tried to block Clinton's stimulus plan using every dirty trick in the book.
Tried to block his Healthcare Reform attempts using every dirty trick in the book.
SHUT DOWN the Government over budget squabbles and hoped the public would blame it on Clinton.
Attempted to INDICT his Attorney General, Janet Reno, by creating a tempest in a teapot (SEVERAL times).
Tried to IMPEACH Clinton for a trumped up reason. (ie-start out by creating a fuss over an inconsequential realestate deal like WHITEWATER, and then just keep on digging, subpoenaing witnesses and documents until you EVENTUALLY find evidence of adultery. Just keep digging until you find something you can use, politically.)
Sound familiar? And how did Clinton respond? For the most part by throwing himself on the floor in a helpless fetal position.
So, should it really surprise us that they're now running exactly the same play against Obama, only with TEN TIMES the INTENSITY?
These are political terrorists. As soon as they started voting and filibustering ideas that THEY originally sponsored, including TAX CUTS and PAYROLL TAX HOLIDAYS just because Obama supported them, it should have been obvious to anybody that this is a political terrorist strategy. POISONING THE WELL. (Do you want to know the REAL reason why Roberts FLIPPED on the conservatives yesterday? Because he didn't want to POISON THE WELL over the Healthcare Mandate. He didn't want to poison the well on what is essentially a Republican healthcare plan written by the Heritage Foundation. If Obamacare is struck down, so is Romneycare in Massachusetts. Roberts knew that if he struck down Obamacare, Romney would be completely helpless on healthcare if/when he was elected.) Wrecking the the economy and the country JUST to defeat the other party. Saying "if WE can't govern, we're not going to let anybody ELSE govern." If you appease that attitude, we're only going to get more and more of it, not less.
If that doesn't work for you, try this one on for size: The American people voted Obama into office, and they've done everything they can to SABOTAGE HIS PRESIDENCY. When foreigners living in other countries deliberately try to destroy the duly elected President and Government of the United States we have no trouble calling them ENEMIES of the United States. Well, that's what these people are.
If Tim Geithner had gone to China to discuss American Bonds and American Debt with them, and then Hugo Chaves had gone to China right after and said "Don't believe a word the U.S. Treasury Secretary says," we'd have no trouble calling him an enemy of the United States. So...how is it different when MARK KIRK does exactly that?
If Vladimir Putin had sabotaged the American credit rating through some KGB subterfuge we'd have no trouble calling him an enemy of America. So how is it different when House Republicans destroy America's credit rating by threatening to DEFAULT on our DEBT, SOULLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF EMBARRASSING OBAMA?
It's NOT different. This is war. Get your inspiration from HENRY V! (And yes, only liberals know that Henry V wasn't 'that fat English guy with six wives.' What of it?)
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)The took a Huge failure of Right Wing Policies, took the word of a lying fucking prick of an agent and smeared the good people to go after Holder and the President.
There is no working with them.
chknltl
(10,558 posts)(Man o man am I about to jump into hellfire here, knowing I do so against many fellow DUers I have long admired! Hope it's not my meds talking! Damn......guess there is nothing for it master Frodo, on we go.)
The corporatiststs as we can plainly see outspend the left by perhaps insurmountable amounts. Should mitt rob-me get the White House it will be because of that money. These people who are investing millions and likely billions do not do so because they think there is a chance they might win. They go into this KNOWING that they will win and they expect their wishes to be carried out by those they are purchasing. Do you think we can go toe to toe with these guys financially in this election? Hell China alone can outspend us on the left if it so chooses...and it likely will be heavily involved in our election, financially. What about all the other nations who want to financially influence our elections? Add in foreign corporations and foreign billionaires with religious craziness and add in American billionaires heavily influenced by John Birch...
Look around, Wisconsin proved that we on the left do not have the financial wherewithal to compete in this war. Go back in time and inject "mad as hell" into the equation, it won't change squat! The ONLY thing I see that still scares the hell out of these big money spenders is our vote. If this was not true then why are they spending all that money trying to influence how we vote? Why are they trying to disenfranchise so many of us out of our vote? An awakened sleeping giant scares the hell out of these guys. Cut that giant in half add in disenfranchisement and slick advertisements and a repeat of Wisconsin happens on a much larger scale come November.
I hate the stupidity of the right just as much as the next guy here, we already know that they hate us. That said, would you fight in a foxhole with a knuckle dragging freeper against a foreign invader should it come to that? I'm betting you would. I'm betting most here would. We are not at war with the freepers instead we are at war with the corporatists who influence them.
You say we can not get back together again, we were even further apart during the Civil War. It took awhile, but for most of the nation we were back together by WWII. Personally I would like to see us start putting things back together before we have to go through Civil War II. Might be a whole lot less bloody.
We are indeed at war, our enemy is a hostile corporate takeover of our government. Things keep looking more and more dire. Many here, some I can not argue against say we have already lost! I say that it is time to look at that freeper in the foxhole with you, the one pointing his gun at you, and find some fucking way to engage in dialog. I ain't got all the answers but I can not see We the People win back our democracy without a full and united effort. Going at this half assed has gotten us exactly where we are-on the very verge of maybe losing it all and worse, perhaps even another civil war.
It may not be too late to pick our enemies and to remember that a common enemy united us once before. An old common enemy is currently kicking We The Peoples asses!
The "Freeper in the foxhole" has a lot more in common with me than he does with the oligarchs he either explicitly or implicitly supports and serves. If he could see that, things might change for the better.
-Laelth
chknltl
(10,558 posts)He hates us for being intellectual we hate him for being ignorant. We are both wrong to hate! He needs our wisdom, we need his strength. He can not come to this simple understanding without our help. WE KNOW who the real enemy to our democracy is....if we are so damned smart then why can't we get him to see what we see? If we are so damned smart why do we push him away?
Letting the corporatists use our fellow citizens against us like this may be an insurmountable advantage. Why can't we be smarter than this? I believe that TOGETHER WE CAN push back against this coming darkness and usher in a golden age for American democracy.
Ghost of Huey Long
(322 posts)All of this is made possible by the corrupt corporate media using our public airwaves to lie to millions of Americans.
I love what you wrote, let's look beyond the people who have been duped and fight the corporations who control them.
Republicans are weak, morally, intellectually...they are easily manipulated. They are irrational and impossible to get through to. We cannot count on them ever to 'get it', they will just go along with it when we change things.
The means of control....TV. They are using it to 'create reality' and everyone just goes along with it.
Also the way to steal elections, manufacture consent while messing with the tabulators.
chknltl
(10,558 posts)This thread is proof. Some here are veritable intellectual giants compared to me, fellow DUers I have long been inspired by. Truth be told, I feared to open these two replys knowing I was likely going to defend my position against a fellow DUer I feel is a close comrade and in a few cases my intellectual leaders! Imagine my surprise....thank you for the kind words. I agree with much of what you said my fellow DUer, but this part I wish to discuss further:
"Republicans are weak, morally, intellectually...they are easily manipulated. They are irrational and impossible to get through to. We cannot count on them ever to 'get it', they will just go along with it when we change things."
There are clinical studies that I have seen that lend credence to what you say here. Even so these words you write do not sit well with me. I personally know republicans who are neither morally nor intellectually weak. Yes, they can be stubborn resisting our facts and data tirelessly until we withdraw from debate in sheer frustration. May I point out that this can be a good thing too?
Imagine that same pig-headed 'idiot' fighting on our side against the corporatists who are wrecking this nation. There was a time he fought with us against the NAZI and the Imperial Japanese. That same pig-headedness was a much needed tenacity which kept him in the fight. These are warrior souls and I strongly want them in my foxhole....we just need to find the key that gets them to point their guns at the true enemy instead of us! That key is our democracy, they have clearly shown that they are ready to lay down their very lives for her. If history repeats itself...well, see why I want them in our foxhole fighting with us now?
FEAR HATE and ANGER, was used against the right by the corporatists. Those studies I mentioned earlier suggested that there is a certain type of mindset that allows those three tools to flourish. We on the left take it for granted that this mindset is one which lacks education and/or curiosity. Present a hardcore righty with the facts and time after time the righty will find a way to explain away those facts. We DUers reinforce this by calling those on the right knuckledraggers and countless other names which suggest that they are uneducated/uninformed. I do this too. Did you catch that last bit: I do it too.
The truth is right here in this thread and plain to see: We are all subjectable to FEAR HATE and ANGER, that regardless of education or intellectual curiosity we can each have our judgement so clouded as to render facts unimportant to the equation. This is a fact: We The People are being manipulated and the result of this manipulation keeps us divided and subdivided. Those who are at war with us seek to keep us at war with each other. This thread shows how well that tactic is working. FEAR, HATE ANGER it works/is working equally well on us and we reinforce each other with it constantly.
So what if we let FEAR HATE and ANGER get the best of us, I ask what good can come of it? We The People continue down the road, fighting with each other, maybe even going so far down that road that things devolve into a second Civil War. At no point along that path are our true enemies, the corpoaratists slowed or harmed! Hell, they've moved off shore and/or found new markets elsewhere to exploit. (Except the GUN INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX-can you feel the drool?). The result: We The People lose and that grand experiment American democracy is taken away from us by oligarchs who laugh at us from bank vaults they own while sitting atop piles of wealth we once owned.
Clearly We The People as an electorate must come together with a focused and enlightened purpose if we are to bring about that change BOTH SIDES so strongly cry out for. Arguably, we on the left can see a part of what that change needs to be better than those on the right. Sadly, the primary weapon needed to take back our government in this war is not only overlooked, but this thread demonstrates that it is cast away equally by a house divided.
I know this is long but let me return a last time to that foxhole; "General Washington sir, we can hold out till we see the whites of their eyes but most of us are in dire need of spectacles!" Can you imagine if President Obama held a heart to heart talk with We The People and actually pointed out in terms graspable even by the 'knuckle daggers' who the real enemy is and how he got inside our perimeter?
Snarkoleptic
(5,997 posts)
gordianot
(15,234 posts)They have changed their target and refer to themselves in their in the latest version as the "Tea Party".
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)
Kablooie
(18,612 posts)
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)never really stopped being fought, despite the surrender at Appomattox. It is not accident that the right loves the Confederate flag, because the America they want is Dixie, slaves and all. With all due respect to my fellow liberals in Dixie, it is time for the equivalent of Sherman's march to the sea, where we put heels on throats and make it clear that, either by their obedience, or their destruction, these fascists will serve the American people.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)
To the Greatest with you!
There is no middle ground with these people, just like there was no middle ground with the crazies in Rwanda who butchered hundreds of thousands. Just like there is no middle ground with religious fanatics who fly planes into buildings, or murder gynecologists like George Tiller. Just like there was no middle ground with the Nazis.
Those who think we can reason with the baggers are like Neville Chamberlain, who thought he could reason with Hitler.
tblue
(16,350 posts)Maybe around WWII...?
I'm with you. These people are effing up everything
flamingdem
(39,308 posts)
FOX NEWS
MineralMan
(146,262 posts)Here's my suggestion:
Let's You and Him Fight!
And here's my question:
How many terrorists who you know have offered to negotiate with you?
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)for a moment and let that statistic sink in. 6 people control as much wealth as 30 million people in a supposedly egalitarian society.
It is time for the 'redneck' to make common cause with the 'professor,' time for every working man and woman (those who must work by the sweat of their brow to survive) to make common cause, to unite against the real enemy, the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few and the concentration of the destitution in the hands of the many.
What must happen now is to instill the same class consciousness in that redneck and professor, to turn their collective might from a class in itself to a class for itself. Only then will the long march to justice and freedom take its next significant step in this God-forsaken land.
And all this without a cup of coffee yet this a.m.!
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)on light poles ala Mussolini. Explain to me what they did to earn their wealth, please. At least Gates invented Windows. (Yes I know he sort of stole it).
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)in Apple and the Zerox interfaces, a team of programmers at Microsoft invented Windows 3.1 for DOS. Gates profited from their labor (thereby illustrating Marx' so-called 'surplus theory of value') by not paying them what their respective contributions were actually worth.
I'd be satisified with merely expropriating the wealth of the Walton heirs and repatriating it into the commonwealth. "Strung up on light poles" goes a bit far even for my revolutionary tastes
But I take your point as an expression of justified and righteous anger.
mythology
(9,527 posts)You're advocating killing people for being born into a different family. There are a billion people living on a dollar a day. Should they advocate putting you to death because you live on more?
I'm glad I'm not so filled with hate that I would wish death on people for an accident of birth.
Dustlawyer
(10,494 posts)the war on drugs or terrorism. I just convinced a young oysterman, who is a victim of the BP oil spill, that HIS anger has been intentionally mis-directed. I told him that our politicians on both sides have been bought, and that we are fighting with each other over guns, abortion, gay rights... Just like they want. He saw the light and will have a better chance to convince his friends and relatives than I would. That is how we win! That is the ONLY WAY we win! It can be done, but not with an un-winable WAR!
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)to convince the oysterman of who his REAL enemy is, BUT.........
As I said in an above post, IF the working class cannot (or WILL not) be educated about who their real enemies are, they will have to be fought. Fascism is NEVER an option.
randome
(34,845 posts)Sorry, I don't think enough people are in enough dire straits -even today- that make a 'war' or 'revolution' or whatever plausible.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)Because fascism doesn't advance the working class, it advances the owners. And even trends towards fascism don't advance the working class and should be fought, albeit with different methods than a fight against true fascism.
We actually agree with what you said in the body of your post. I'm sure the difference is that you think that the capitalists will, one way or another, back off and throw a few more crumbs our way. I don't. I think they can't stop the drive for neo-feudalism even if they want to. It's inherent in the system itself. Which means that, like it or not and I don't particularly like it, the clash is inevitable at some point. Probably when people stop getting paid or paid as much as they've been being paid. That will make it hit ALL individually and leave NO doubt as to where we're headed.
No, we're not there yet. But it's coming.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)They think they are the 1%, because the 1% has convinced them they are.
Class consciousness needs to happen first.
And in the mean time, they are in the matrix, and they ARE the matrix, as Morpheus would have said.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)interests, either.
RevStPatrick
(2,208 posts)...which showed up here yesterday, and touched upon the root of the problem:
http://www.alternet.org/visions/156071/conservative_southern_values_revived%3A_how_a_brutal_strain_of_american_aristocrats_have_come_to_rule_america_/
In a nutshell - Southern Planter Aristocratic mentality has replaced Northern Puritan communitarian Aristocratic mentality as the soul of the nation. The Southern planters were brutal and the brutality we are seeing in corporate and political culture now is a reflection of this. It had been kept largely in check as far as national politics were concerned, but Reagan opened the door and Dubya led the takeover.
I think this is what needs to be defeated.
I think that most of the individuals who are the "troops" on the "other side" are simply kinda dumb people who have caught a brain virus and are reacting to propaganda. I think you do yourself a disservice when talking about individuals who may be your neighbors and family members in language that describes them in terms of "terrorists," "inbred rednecks," "war" and "cross-hairs." You are playing the game that those brutal aristocrats at the top want you to play!
Certainly, absolutely and without hesitation talk about the propaganda spreaders and those who benefit from that propaganda in those terms. Absolutely do whatever you can do, and it will take more than rants on the internet, to defeat the Planter Corporate Slave-holder mentality that has become prevalent. But remember that their divide and conquer tactics have worked like a charm, and those tactics have worked ON YOU! They have divided communities and families from each other for their own benefit. We cannot "win this war" by further dividing people who really should be on the same side, but by bringing people together to fight the common enemy.
I'm not saying that you should go and give Bubba the Racist Redneck a hug and tell him you love him. But I do think you should ratchet down the rhetoric used towards him. Don't engage him, or somehow let him know that despite your differences, you SHOULD be on the same side against people who are exploiting BOTH of you. He may not be smart enough to get it, and then it stops being your problem. After that, stop fighting him and get back to the fight of against those who are dividing us all.
Or something like that...
(on edit - it looks like as I was writing this, a couple of other people here expressed similar sentiments! we must stop divide and conquer. that's how we win!)
heaven05
(18,124 posts) 
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)They want us to fight each other instead of identifying the real enemy....the one percent that is impoverishing ALL of us.
We are the 99 percent. Occupy.
DearAbby
(12,461 posts)We can't fight this individually.
There was talk about fires up thread. Imagine the firefighters in Colorado fighting it all on their own. No coordination, no plan...just a person trying to put out a fire. They all have a common goal, yet they aren't reaching it.
We can debate, heatedly. But let's remember, among US, we have a common goal.
Now let's come up with a plan.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
RZM
(8,556 posts)As if the same shit isn't going on everywhere else. Polarization is natural in democracies. It's far worse in many other places. Just look around youtube and you can find footage of fisticuffs in foreign parliaments. Or look at countries that can't cobble together coalition governments, or places where coalitions rise and fall in rapid succession.
Hatred, anger, and the like happen everywhere. If anything, the fact that everyone's free to hate on each other is evidence of a healthy democracy. It's when one side can't do that you're really in trouble.
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)Homer Wells
(1,576 posts)K&R
Herlong
(649 posts)Because I remember the first black president was elected by democrats trying to move a united America foward
Taverner
(55,476 posts)You're saying one more time's a charm?
Herlong
(649 posts)People keep on learnin'
Soldiers keep on warrin'
World keep on turnin'
Cause it won't be too long
Powers keep on lyin'
While your people keep on dyin'
World keep on turnin'
Cause it won't be too long
I'm so darn glad he let me try it again
Cause my last time on earth I lived a whole world of sin
I'm so glad that I know more than I knew then
Gonna keep on tryin'
Till I reach the highest ground
Teachers keep on teachin'
Preachers keep on preachin'
World keep on turnin'
Cause it won't be too long
Oh no
Lovers keep on lovin'
Believers keep on believin'
Sleepers just stop sleepin'
Cause it won't be too long
Oh no
I'm so glad that he let me try it again
Cause my last time on earth I lived a whole world of sin
I'm so glad that I know more than I knew then
Gonna keep on tryin'
Till I reach my highest ground...Whew!
Till I reach my highest ground
No one's gonna bring me down
Oh no
Till I reach my highest ground
Don't you let nobody bring you down (they'll sho 'nuff try)
God is gonna show you higher ground
He's the only friend you have around
FADE
*We have to fight. It's about why and how we fight.
Autumn
(44,986 posts)That's how I feel.
rec
-p
dtom67
(634 posts)We are at war, but where is the battlefield ?
Right now the war is still being fought within the confines of the system that those before us created. The one sure way that you will know that we have lost is when you can no longer have this kind of discussion on the net. The odds ( and all the money ) are stacked against us. But there is still hope; otherwise why bother to post here? If the only option left was to pick up my Weapon and fight, I would not be here .
Unless, of course, you mean that it is time for Dems to stop trying to foster bipartisanship all the time. That I agree with. The GoP deserves to be crushed, without mercy. But it can still be done in the public arena.
But if this is meant to be some type of call for revolt, it will not happen.
There may be riots and chaos, but it will be directionless .
Hell, there is probably an NSA computer tracking down the location of everyone who has posted on this thread right now. Not a conspiracy theory, just a frightening possibility.
Taking a antagonistic stance with all those that vote republican is a losing proposition for us.Could a republican confrontationally convince you to change your vote?
Many of the people who vote republican do not realize the damage that the people that they vote for cause. Those "pro life " republican voters who elected Tom Delay probably don't realize the role he played in contributing to the perpetration of forced prostitution and forced abortions in the Marianas islands. Those NRA supporters who plan to vote for Romney probably don't realize that Mitt (Willard) is going to make them so poor that they will not be able to afford anything other than a .22. Or that they will need that .22 when they retire to kill their dinner, because Mitt and Co will destroy their pensions.
It is important to point out that the turmoil in the rest of the world can very easily happen here. We have led a sheltered life , here in America. 9/11 was bad, but that kind of shit happens in the rest of the world every day .
The main point is that we are all here because we believe that there is still a chance to win this war at the Box.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)I hear the RW propagandists pounding into their rubes over and over how there can be no common ground with our side, how the ideological gulf is too wide. That's why they have to exaggerate how liberal Obama is, that's why they studiously ignore all the things Obama agrees with them on.
It makes perfect sense coming from them. We have a winning case, if middle-class and working class and poor people think straight, many of them will conclude that Democratic party has better policies for them. Therefore the propaganda masters have to keep people from thinking straight, they have to blow everything up into an epic battle between good and evil.
But we don't need that. There is little danger that any of us is going to look at today's GOP and say, "those people make a good point!"
So we have the ability to look at this Supreme Court decision and acknowledge the reality that the very conservative John Roberts can side with us once in a while. The gap is not unbridgeable.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I agree with your assessment 100%. This is the intelligent/common sense community (us) against the anti-intellectuals (GOP).
Of that, there can be no doubt.
Response to Taverner (Original post)
Herlong This message was self-deleted by its author.
