Biden: "Dems ignored middle class in 2016 campaign"

[FDRsGhost]

This should make for an interesting discussion.
What do you all think of this? Is he right? Is he wrong?
The Mediaite article references is here http://www.mediaite.com/online/biden-my-party-did-not-talk-about-maintaining-a-burgeoning-middle-class-during-the-election/

Biden: Dems ignored middle class in 2016 campaign



http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/326673-biden-dems-ignored-middle-class-in-2016

[bullimiami]

1. Sorry Joe. You are flat wrong. The entire campaign was about helping the 90%.

[Doreen]

57. Yeah, that is what I say. Most of what they talked about was the middle class.

At least that is what I remember.

[lapucelle]

77. If people didn't hear it on cable TV, then it didn't happen.

Even Biden has fallen into this trap.

[NurseJackie]

2. This was discussed earlier. {{ PROCEED WITH CAUTION }}

This should make for an interesting discussion.

"Interesting" huh? Actually, it was "discussed" earlier here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028877495 but maybe a new title and new wrapping will present additional opportunities for discussion.

It's a frustrating to see attacks like this from anyone. Unfortunately any meaningful or in-depth defense of Hillary's campaign puts one at risk of running afoul of the rules.

So, I encourage people participating in this thread to proceed with caution.

[FDRsGhost]

4. Ahhh thanks I missed that thread.

[Submariner]

10. Yes....proceed cautiously

to avoid the wrath of the thought police FDRsGhost.

And welcome aboard the good ship DU.

[FDRsGhost]

14. Why thank you

[nocalflea]

30. re: thought police

Been nailed by them for an obvious joke.No sense of humor.I won btw.
Their lack of concern re censorship astounds me.

[synergie]

36. Lack of concern?

Silencing dissent is their raison d'etre. Nothing to be astounded about, it's how propagandists operate. Clint Watts, the intel guy who testified in congress the other day went into this via bullet points, about how the trolls work and how they achieve their goals. This is by the book.

[Submariner]

39. They make themselves obvious when they bracket and go bold with their threats

It appears that silencing others keeps their day from being a total bust.

[synergie]

50. Can't sow dissension if facts are allowed.

Note the times these actions happen. A solid day's work somewhere in the world.

[JTFrog]

5. Obvious is still being obvious. nt

[Squinch]

52. And repetitive.

[Bettie]

3. No. I love Joe, but he's wrong

The problem many white people had is that we talked about people who are not-white and we had a not-white president.

I say this as a white woman. There are so many more racist pieces of...well, you know, out there than I ever believed and it was straight up racism and hatred of women coupled with a 25 plus year campaign of hate against one woman in particular, mixed with crosscheck, voter suppression, and the media who gave Tribble-Hair more free coverage than a sitting president.

I'm ashamed of relatives and former friends who voted for this disaster, but I know who they really are now.

The small good that has come out of this is that they don't hide the racism and the hate anymore. They believe that it is their right to show what petty, small people they are, their right to be hate-filled because the color of their skin makes them feel superior and weirdly, untouchable. As if Mangolini/Ryan/McConnell's shit won't stick to them too. As if the toxic and destructive agenda of these people won't harm them.

Makes me sick. Makes a lot of others like me sick too.

[we can do it]

6. Thank you Bettie, I think I'm a lot like you and agree fully.

Sad, but true.

[erinlough]

26. This summed it up perfectly.

The people I knew who voted for Trump, didn't vote, or voted for Stine wanted someone who was not black and not Hillary. I can't even pretend to understand their disdain for Hillary because none of them could clearly state why, they just didn't like her. Personally I think it was the fake stories they saw.

[FDRsGhost]

40. I disagree to an extent

Just because people voted for Trump doesn't mean they didn't want someone who was black. Are their people who feel that way? Sure there are but my cousin who voted Trump and many like him sure don't feel that way. It's interesting speaking with him; he lives in one of the most Republican counties in America; Waukesha County, Wisconsin. He's a die hard Republican who was for Ted Cruz before Trump. In 2012 he was for Cain. He's one of those "die hard Republicans" the party loves BUT....he is starting to see the mistake he made. To this day he still says he wouldn't have voted Hillary but he would have voted for O'Malley.

[Manly_Scream]

47. When they keep coming up with bullshit reasons

For hating Obama, then YES it really does seem like they simply don't want a black president.

It doesn't nessacarily mean they want to round up all black people and have them eradicated off of the face of the earth, but they want black, and non-whites to "know their place", and sure as shit don't want a black man in the Holy Grail of political positions, or having any power over them. They need for blacks and browns to stay disenfranchised, or else their ego completely dissolves.

Just because they don't tell you to their face, that that's their motivation, doesn't mean it's not true.

[bettyellen]

59. So he would have voted for a male democrat, but justnot Hillary...

What, was she "too radical"? LOL. Sorry but people like him were voting with their lizard brains.

[FDRsGhost]

61. It has nothing to do with gender

and excuse me but my cousin doesn't have a "lizard brain" which I take as rather personal. You're crossing the line there Betty.

And no, it has absolutely nothing to do with gender at all but the fact that he sees Hillary as corrupt and part of what's wrong with politics. He said if Warren had run he would have gone her way had it been Warren vs Trump.

So there goes your narrative right out the window.

[bettyellen]

66. People always have excuses for their bias- he chose to believe bullshit coming from RT and Fox

Because it fit his bias. It's a bit more complicated than "would have voted for another woman" because that "if" would be a very different scenario-Warren would have been painted as ambitious, greedy, flip flopping ex GOPer,etc... lizard brain just means not using your higher cognitive functions and letting instinct take over- and lots people who "hated" HRC did exactly that.

[FDRsGhost]

69. Uh no Betty, I wasn't aware you know my cousin personally

You probably shouldn't speak for him.

You're making assumptions here and bias? How is it bias if he doesn't like a candidate? That's not bias, it's making a choice based on who he thinks is best. It has nothing to do with misogyny, sexism or anything else in his case. Is there RW crap out there about Hillary? Sure. We all know that, been that way for decades however he dislikes Trump and what he has done to the country and he's also not happy how Republicans killed internet privacy.

[bettyellen]

73. What specific policies of OMalley's were so different? What evidence of "lying" did he actually

Have against Hillary? Did he buy what was 90% bullshit pretty easily- yes, he did. Funny how DJT wasn't vilified for his bullshit and greed and instead people accepted it as facets of his persona- for him it was normal.
Hillary just wanting the job and earning money from speeches was suddenly beyond the pale, but the greedy bastard who cheated people again and again is a regular guy. HA.

Yeah, it's never sexism when you ask individuals who's stupid decisions make no rational sense. Yet somehow these dudes always prefer dudes, and cut them all sorts of slack.

[FDRsGhost]

81. I can ask if you'd like me to

[bettyellen]

85. It would be interesting to dig deeper, I think. Have had the conversation with a lot of people and

They were all short on factual information, and heavy on more instinctive or emotional reactions- her voice, her ambition (so much more ambitious than Sanders or OMalley?-what?) things her husband did twenty years ago.
Very few people had bothered to learn much about her achievements- yet they had taken the time to find out things about other candidates. Even with liberals I saw a huge inclination to just write her off as inlikable for the vaguest of reasons. People who claimed she was a liar couldn't back it up but were happy to speculate she would be dishonest. A lot of people refused to give her the benefit of the doubt. It was very strange to listen to such closed minds.

[FDRsGhost]

87. I'll ask him today. Stay tuned.

[fun n serious]

108. Your cousin is the minority

Most people who voted for Trump did in fact vote for a racist wall and a racist Muslim ban

[no_hypocrisy]

7. With all due respect Joe, but that's not how I remember it.

Both Bernie and Hillary remembered the Middle Class and those impoverished with their criticisms and proposals for remedies.

[nikibatts]

8. It is disheartening when our heroes fall for the Russian-bot talking points.

Joe is wrong on this. All he has to do is go back to the tapes of HRC and Sanders primary campaigns and HRC's national campaign. The media simply ignored HRC and her message her plans and proposed policies while giving 45 the free air time with his bloviating, racist, sexist, xenophobic messages. The message that gets replayed is the message that is remembered.

And so is Bernie wrong when he says "The GOP didn't win the election, the Democrats lost the election." WTF. There is never an acknowledgement of how even the Bernie supporters were targeted and how many of them fell for the fake news and even help spread it.

It is up to the Democrats to now stay on the media and fact check them and challenge them every chance they get. The DNC must begin town halls where this message is made clear. Voters were sold a bunch of crap by the Russian bots, the GOP, the 45 campaign, and the media. And this must be followed by clear, simple explanations of facts and the Democratic party's values and proposed solutions to our problems.

[FDRsGhost]

43. Want to see an interesting chart about airtime?

Get a load of this https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/08/graphic-whos-the-most-popular-candidate-mentioned-on-television/402451/

[treestar]

9. Maybe, because that is the largest number of voters

Still as a member of the white middle class, what is all the whining about? They have all they need.

[former9thward]

21. "They have all they need"

Classic. And classic is why we lost. Biden is 110% right.

[treestar]

42. They do. They have jobs, they have health coverage

(usually through their employers) they have gym memberships, they buy sports equipment for whatever sport the kids play, they have 401(k)s, they take trips for vacations (which include airline tickets and hotels), they have houses with yards, Washing machines and dryers in the house, every electronic gadget imaginable, they go out to eat frequently - these are the middle class people I live among and grew up among.

[coco22]

46. My thoughts exactly..

[Amishman]

93. Yes, but what do you expect to motivate them?

By writing them off by saying they have enough, we give then no incentive to vote for our side.

Stagnant wage growth has them afraid of losing what they do have.

It's a big voting block and our message fell flat. Adjustment is needed.

[treestar]

120. gratitude?

They send the kids to college, have parties for their graduations, go skiing, have memberships at the local pool, a local public library, go to the movies, go to the beach in the summer, smugly judge people who come illegally from poor villages in Mexico, smugly judge people born black in the inner cities, smugly judge anyone on government assistance because they feel certain they will never need it, etc.

They go to wedding and baby showers and can easily buy gifts for those, shop for new clothes, send the kids for piano lessons, buy new cars and insurance for them with no problems making the payments and feel like victims of poor people who need a few bucks for food or health care because their tax money goes towards it.

Maybe they should be grateful for what they have and quit judging people who don't have it.

[Amishman]

122. That's a pretty weak sales pitch

One side says: vote for us because you should be grateful for what you have
The other side says: I'm going to bring better jobs to your community and cut taxes.

Which is going to be more appealing?

It's a big voting block. We can't afford to take it for granted. As I said before, adjustments are needed.

Also, I think you are overestimating the economic status of the voters in question. The biggest change was lower middle class, not upper. Think vacation on the Jersey shore, not Caribbean beaches.

[treestar]

123. I don't think they are motivated by that

kind of thing. More by the idea someone is going to punish the poor people who victimize them. That's the middle class right wingers I know. My sister's FIL is a great example. Has everything and more and whines constantly about how the government is out to get him and those poor Mexicans are victimizing him.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Well intentioned but incorrect

Off the top of my head

-Public option
-Free college tuition for families who earn < 125K
-Paid family leave
-Job retraining


What's a Undeplorable not to like?

[jrthin]

12. No we didn't. We told them the truth.

Their jobs aren't coming back.

[MineralMan]

13. Say it ain't so, Joe!

Because it ain't so, Joe.

[Foamfollower]

15. I think good ole Joe is dead wrong on this one.

[pnwmom]

16. No. She simply didn't single out the WHITE middle class.

Her whole campaign was centered around the middle class, of all races. It's silly to pretend anything else.

[jpak]

17. I like Russian bots

weeeeee!!!1111

[triron]

18. Sorry but I think Biden is full of it.

[Adrahil]

19. No Joe. That's bullshit. NT

[stevenleser]

20. Love Joe, but there is plenty of video evidence to show how wrong he is about this. nt

[JI7]

22. he is full of shit on this

[synergie]

23. The media which breathlessly covered her opponents' every expulsion of GI gas

while literally muting her speeches. Any notion of why she was actually blacked out, while her opponents were on air 24/7 complaining about a lack of coverage?

How about the failure of voters to actually do their homework? No one attending her speeches, processing auditory input from the various town halls and debates was ever in any doubt of her appeal to middle and working class voters, as the final vote tallies show.

Are we going to discuss why people keep repeating these obviously false talking points? Are they all the rage on the FB pages that Maddow spoke of recently and Clint Watts referenced?

Any discussion on the fact there was no "upset" in the population referred to?

Also, anyone going to remind the pearl clutchers that the reason that this election was historic was the fact that it was the FIRST ONE AFTER THE VRA ruling? Where Crosscheck, voter suppression and votes failing to be counted were MAJOR issues, or are we just going to pretend that facts don't matter?

Can't look at the issues clearly by ignoring the facts and embracing convenient falsehoods being pushed by operatives who are vested in sowing discord and maintaining divisiveness and chaos.

We stand Indivisible, Resisting the elements that seem to be intent on denying reality and playing these ridiculous games.

Joe was wrong, and the people who wrote these two articles need to do their homework, since they seem to have missed a great many glaring facts.

[JI7]

24. this is interesting and might be worth an OP itself. at a time when major info is coming out about

outside influence in this election there are suddenly people who want to ignore it and spread bs talking points as if all the russian thing is nothing.

it's just fucking weird.

[synergie]

27. Or ... not so weird.

I just read an article at The Daily Banter, was going to post it here, but saw that it had already been posted, take a look.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028879527

And one penned by Clint Watts, that I posted as an OP the other day.

https://warontherocks.com/2016/11/trolling-for-trump-how-russia-is-trying-to-destroy-our-democracy/

[still_one]

31. The sexsim and double standards from the media exhibited during the election was obvious

and pathetic

[synergie]

33. Not just the media.

[still_one]

35. yes. Thank you

[JI7]

25. if they are making 90K a Year with just 2 kids, why ARen't they making it ?

i know people who have WAYYY less including myself . and i live in california .

[FDRsGhost]

44. Wow where to even start...

yet at the same time, every chance you get you spew how you would have won if you ran, or giving advice why Hillary lost. It only highlights just how jealous and vain you are.

I don't think it's that. I think it's regret. I also think you need to cut Joe a break here. Let's be honest, shall we? I believe his heart was set on running but when his son died he was devastated. More than likely Joe probably feels pretty screwed and who wouldn't. I sure would. He lost his biggest dream and his son. Some compassion here is needed.

Those of us who remember you Joe, remember the way you treated Anita Hill, your plagiarism, and of course your mouth which got you into trouble multiple times. Of course your judgement wasn't always the best, such as when you recommended not to go after bin laden when the opportunity presented itself

And under the bus Joe goes!

Your mouth and sour grapes are destroying whatever credibility you may have had Joe

To say Joe "had" credibility and he now doesn't is completely wrong. I'm sorry but Joe knows more about the situation at hand than ANY of us here on a message board. He was the VP after all. Just because he criticizes our party doesn't make him less knowledgeable on the situation as a whole.

Paul Krugman's take on why people vote against their own self-interest:

"'Coal country' residents weren't voting to preserve what they have, or had until recently; they were voting on behalf of a story their region tells about itself, a story that hasn't been true for a generation or more"

"Their trump votes weren't even about the region's interests; they were about cultural symbolism"

I mostly agree here. Some of it however is about policy and how Republican voters often times think their party will somehow mostly make them rich. They are made marks based on snake oil sold from salesmen.

[Warpy]

29. I disagree with him in many ways

The DLC arm of the party has always focused exclusively on the middle class, especially the upper middle class, while giving short shrift to working class and below people who just aren't able to make it in this country now.

That doesn't mean we all didn't do better whenever a Democrat was in the White House, it just meant that "middle class" promises didn't mean a hell of a lot to most of us. We were no longer there and we knew it.

Clinton's real problem was that she couldn't catch a break from a press that hung breathlessly on Dolt45's every stupid word, giving him hours of free air time while they only mentioned her in connection with "emails" or "Benghazi."

In addition, the party totally underestimated both misogyny and Clinton's baggage from her ties to corporate America. Both were unfair, she might have been a good president and certainly better than the Orange Horror, but they were there.

Given all this, it's kind of a miracle she won the popular vote so handily.

Anybody who wants to get elected would probably do well to campaign on "AMERICA NEEDS A RAISE," since so many of our problems derive from the fact that wages have simply been allowed to fall too far. Talking about "middle class problems" is simply not going to work, not any more.

[FDRsGhost]

45. The DLC...

I have my opinion on the DLC (Lieberman was a prominent member) and they are history; no longer around with being disbanded in 2011. They are a centrist organization which I am not (I'm a progressive). Everything else though rings bells and all I can say is "hell yes!"

[Warpy]

58. It was disbanded as an official organization

largely because Democrats finally caught on to them. The people they had put into place in the halls of power remained.

This is why I'm so optimistic about the party, Perez and Ellison seem to have cleaned house.

Well, they have as long as they don't rehire them.

[Jonny Appleseed]

32. Prominent dems use this excuse because it's become politically improper to

use the "isms" as an "excuse" for anything. You get a plethora of rw feedback saying how easy it is to blame racism/sexism. But in some cases it's just what happened.

[JI7]

34. Hillary did use them and it's one reason she gets so many attacks. people on both sides

uncomfortable with the truth.

[underthematrix]

37. Look the TrumpRussia investigation is classified and for good reason.

Here's the problem. All these analyses involve the false starting assumption that Trump won the presidential election. That is false. I understand why Vice President Biden is saying these things. It's better that it be the fault of a party or group than Russian hackers and US Russian assets actually manipulating registration rolls and voting machine software.

We know this is what they're really hiding. We know this because of what the Netherlands did to protect their presidential election - paper ballots, red pencils, and hand counted results

I understand what they're trying to do but we need these criminals and Russian assets out of our govt.

And BTW they also attacked down ballot federal races, House and Senate

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

38. I think we ignored most things other than Trump being reprehensible

I made peace with the fact we were going to lose this election more than a year ago. She basically ran the same campaign Mitt Romney did and lost for the same reasons. She believed her own bullshit, which in her case included convoluted electoral college math that bordered on numerology and like Mitt Romney believed that America as a whole was deeply invested in her personal narrative and perceived destiny.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. Meh - she came really close to winning. No 'numerology' involved at all

A swing of under 1% from the eventual result could have won her Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin, and then she'd have won the whole thing.

There was no "convoluted electoral college math"; it's just that people didn't accurately measure the bigotry or gullibility in some states, which got Trump more votes there than expected.

It was hate that won the election for Trump. Americans are worse people, measured as a whole, than we realised, especially in the Great Lake states.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

60. The worst case scenario for Obama's successor should have still been a landslide

She was running on the strongest legacy a candidate could be gifted by their predecessor since Truman and lost to Donald Trump. That is her failure and her failure alone.

[muriel_volestrangler]

62. And yet you thought over a year ago we'd lose, when Bernie was still a possible primary winner

In #38 it didn't sound like "her failure alone". You made it sounds inevitable.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

63. Due to alert stalkers I prefer not to mention the Senator from Vermont,

but I assure you I don't believe he was electable either.

Ask yourself a simple question, could Obama have been re-elected to a third term if the constitution allowed it?

[muriel_volestrangler]

64. I have no idea what purpose that question serves

All I can see is that you're so inconsistent in your views in this thread that it's pointless responding to you. I have no idea what you think about this at all.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

65. No, I think you know exactly and just don't want to answer it.

Because if Obama could have won re-election the Clinton failure analysis has to take an uncomfortable introspective turn.

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. No, because you thought that neither Sanders nor Clinton would have won, over a year ago

so it was not about how Clinton ran her campaign. Though you have also claimed that is was. This is how you are so inconsistent that you are saying nothing at all.

Whether Obama would have won re-election with a different constitution is irrelevant. That is not the USA that exists. Also, you claimed a successor to Obama should have won easily, not that Obama would have won.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

70. I believed that because I suspected Clinton would be the nominee and lose.

And what do you know, she did. I just happen to remember the 2008 primaries.

This is a good summary of my thoughts at the time:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1263172

[radius777]

75. Obama may've done worse than Hillary,

because Trump's white nationalist dogwhistles and narratives would've been stronger.

Recall that Obama narrowly (less than 4% popular vote) beat stiff Mitt in 2012, doing much worse (especially with white voters) than he did in 2008 against McCain. Trump, whatever else he is, is media savvy and politically talented, much moreso than either of those two.

The trends were already there for it being a difficult election for Dems, the incumbent party.

And with all of that, without Comey's last minute interference into the election, which probably shifted the election about 2 points (imo), Hillary would've won easily, as most of the models predicted.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

91. So Obama's sheer blackness wasn't enough for "white nationalists" to vote for McCain and Romney?

It took a white woman, who spent most of her public life pretending to be southern, to see their racism fully realized?

Trump brought a lot of angry assholes to the polls with wide-ranging grievances or varying legitimacy.

The popular vote was as irrelevant then as it is now, Obama beat Romney by 126 electoral votes.

Take your email issue up with Mr. & Mrs. Anthony Weiner.

[JI7]

68. They see Obama as a disaster and voted for the piece of shit birther

Their bigotry is not Obama or Hillary's fault.

Obama should have won every state after Bush and especially with palin on the ticket but that didn't happen.

[kacekwl]

41. What many fail to understand is

programs and policies to help poor people , middle class people like basic human rights,health care,education,climate,min. Wage, banking regulations,insurance regulation,etc. All the things Clinton and Bernie pushed help all black,Brown,white,poor,upper middle class,old,young . If you pay attention and understand just because it didn't specify MIDDLE CLASS you will benift but not just you. I don't think anyone was ignored .

[KittyWampus]

49. So, Clinton's campaign was perfect? I supported her but looking back there were flaws

some of which were inexcusable (not going to Wisconsin once).

I know what ads played in my area.

They didn't have anything to with 'Middle Class' issues or voters.

They were almost all negative about Trump's being nasty to women or temperamentally unfit to be CIC.

The very few that were about Clinton seemed like treacle to me.

She was using tv ads that are very expensive. I don't know if she used any micro-targeting to either attract voters to her or to repel voters from Trump. Have yet to hear anything about whether they had their own version of Cambridge Analytics.

I hope our next wave of Democratic candidates understand data-mining and social media or at least hire people who do.

It's always healthy to try and identify mistakes made in any sort of campaign.

[Squinch]

51. Oh, look. It's you again. Doing the same thing again.

[caroldansen]

53. I thought the middle class was smarter than that. Maybe not all were. You don't vote for a bad

guy because your candidate is trying to help other groups first. Like the poor and minorities and others that needed help. The middle class was supposed to already know. I guess they didn't.

[sharedvalues]

54. Hillary talked about the working class. Media chose to talk about emails

Whenever Hillary spoke unfiltered by the media-- at the DNC, in debates -- she talked about helping the working class. Health care, child care - she talked about it.


The media chose not to cover those issues. (Because the media cares about profits, and fake scandals and emails bring viewers and hits).


Democrats in future should do more to help labor and unions, should be in favor of more job retraining programs, and healthcare and childcare for the working class. But Hillary talked about it a lot. She just didn't lie about coal jobs coming back. And the media broadcast those GOP lies.

We need a better press.

[Eko]

55. $32,000 as a hostess!!

That's $15.38 an hour at full time!!! I wish they made that much but c'mon joe, 90g with two kids and they cant make it? You have single parents raising 2 kids at 24k a year, that's who we should be focusing on!!!! Joe is awesome but for too long we have been about the middle class as if they are the magic unicorn that will fix everything and have left the poor out.

[delisen]

56. Biden let Republicans take over Dem states in 2010. He did nothing about it.

Joe ran in 2008 one Democratic Party had strength. When Clinton ran in 2016 the Democratic Party had lost 1000 seats. What happened?

While some people voted for a black man twice, as Biden says, they also voted out Democrats in record numbers at the same time.

.....and unknown to most of us, Vladimir Putin was building an election interference machine to to turn western democracies into Russian satellites.

Hillary Clinton, at least stood up to Putin, and warned us about the interference. Where were you, Joe?

[bettyellen]

74. Good point- it's tiresome to see white men ignore their privledged position in society....

But they don't exactly call each other out on it, do they?
Disappointing.

[former9thward]

84. Biden let the Republicans take over???

I didn't know he was President in 2010. I didn't know he was an all powerful figure who could control elections in 50 states. The things you learn on DU everyday ....

[FDRsGhost]

90. Tell us how Hillary stood up to Putin

while Joe didn't please. We'll wait.

[jmowreader]

71. This is going to sound stupid and impudent...

...but how in hell does a family of four "can't make it" when they're making $92,000 per year?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

72. Coastal Housing Costs, Property Taxes and Private School

[FDRsGhost]

82. College may very well factor into this equation

[jmowreader]

83. Biden makes it sound like ALL $92k families are on the verge of starvation

[FDRsGhost]

88. Well if you happen to live in Denver & have 2 kids in college

You would be.

The cost of living here has gone up so much in the last decade. It's really bad. The median list price per square foot in Denver is $335. The median price of homes currently listed in Denver is $460,000. The median rent price in Denver is $1,950.

[doc03]

76. They did but the media was only interested in Trump nt

[Quixote1818]

78. I think a better question was "Did Hillary give the rust belt hope?" because that is the region that

ultimately cost her the election. Yes, she was talking about a few middle class issues like the minimum wage, bringing down the price of going to college etc. but when Trump talked about NAFTA she had nothing to offer and Trump was making tons of empty promises. He obliterated her in that region. She should have at least mentioned the auto bailout as much as possible and how Republicans were against it. She also ignored advertising in many of those states thinking she had them wrapped up. Blunder after blunder in that region. It was just enough to put Trump over the top.

[beam me up scottie]

79. Good point. I think we can win back those voters by focusing on the issues important to them.

Those voters were once a solid part of our base and it makes no sense to ignore their concerns and assume they're automatically going to remain loyal.

We don't even need to lie to them like Trump did - simply reassure them that we give a damn and remind them that we're the ones fiighting for workers' rights.

[delisen]

105. Rick Scott gov Wisconsin elected in 2010, won recall, Wisconsin Dems

were apparently turning Republican since 2008-2010.

Do you think the Democrats who lost that seat and over 900 others before the election of 2016 were ignoring their concerns? The question is what caused the people to turn against Democrats in the last 8 years?

and why did Democrats not address those issues.

Focusing on election is 2016 doesn't explain the trend of the enormous losses before 2016. It makes more sense to research the decade of loss. A survey of the Democratic losers over those years might be helpful.

People who want to label Clinton as running a poor campaigner not having a message for a segment of the population are thinking too small, not addressing the issues, and will come up with the wrong answers.

[beam me up scottie]

106. It's possible to be critical of both recent and less recent strategies - or the lack of them.

Many articles have been written about our losses in former Democratic strongholds if one cares to Google. I'm sure the new heads of the DNC are also looking into it.

Michael Moore was right and so were others who tried to warn us about our impending loss in the rust belt. We'll never win another election if we pretend no mistakes were made in 2016.

My point was that I think it's possible to win those voters back, not to assign blame to one particular person.

[delisen]

119. Lost because of voter suppression & propaganda not Biden's middle class analysis

Failure of Democrats to deal with voter suppression, Republican and in 2016, Russian modern warfare techniques is what has lost elections since 2010.

It is comforting to some to think that the solution to the loss of over 900 Democratic seats in 6-8 years and the loss of "rust belt" states by 100,000 votes is due to failure to message to a now mythic white working class.

One of the major mistakes by self-styled progressives (I say self-styled because progressive has many different definitions) in 2016 is not acknowledging or understanding Russian warfare techniques or their own susceptibility to propaganda, and failure to address Republican propaganda on healthcare over the past six years.

It's possible to win most voters, but focusing mainly presidential politics is akin to building on sand and it produces things like the Scott Walker "miracle" - in 2010 the Democratic Party lost the governorship of Wisconsin to an anti-union regressive Republican. A man who is acknowledged to be a failure at creating jobs-yet he is re-elected. Why?

Did many in the working class vote for Trump because he was going to radically change NAFTA? Well now he is not going to make that change and I predict that his voters won't care--because that was not why they voted for him.

Joseph Biden has jumped on the anti-Russia influence bandwagon forcefully since the election but not during the election. Too little, too late.

Many who consider themselves progressive were, we now know, repeating Russian propaganda deliberately targeting them. Why were they susceptible?

Michael Moore missed the Russian interference totally. Why ? (He too has now jumped on the anti-Russia bandwagon).

Clinton, at least raised the alarm on Russia in the presidential debate-but lacked the support of Democrats who were in a position to know better.

I think it is great for some people to focus on a particular segment of the voting population-and backing for example Democratic state legislators in Wisconsin who you think can win is great.

But I think the rest us us need to face the Russian threat and the fact that the Republican Party has become not just anti-Democratic party but an anti-democracy party, which is part of an anti-democracy trend around the world.

[JI7]

86. they weren't voting on NAFTA since they voted in even higher numbers for pro nafta republicans

and even less than hillary for anti nafta democrats.

[elleng]

107. Yes, HUGE mistake,

and I wonder to this day who actually MADE the mistake.

[elleng]

116. I guess so, and I agree about the on the ground people being blown off.

Was so hard to me to believe, and can't imagine how THEY felt!

JEEZE the manhattan bubble! How the HECK?! HRC's FROM Illinois, lived in ARKANSAS for many years, and Bill! OMG!

Thanks for sharing this bit of

[elleng]

104. Right, you and Michael Moore.

[warmfeet]

80. The middle class was not ignored during the campaign.

The Russians, however, are a different story.

[oberliner]

89. Hillary Clinton Announces New Details of Middle Class Tax Cut Plan

As part of her plan to build an economy that works for everyone, not just those at the top, Hillary Clinton is announcing today a new expansion of the Child Tax Credit for families with young children. She will double the Child Tax Credit to a maximum of $2,000 per child up to and including age 4, and she’ll expand access to millions more families. As many as 15 million young children will be eligible for the credit of up to $2,000 – and millions more people will benefit from additional relief. And this is only a down payment on further relief for middle-class families.

“Hard-working, middle-class families are struggling with rising costs for child care, health care, caregiving and college,” said Clinton. “This new tax credit will make their lives a little bit easier and help restore fairness to our economy.”

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/updates/2016/10/11/hillary-clinton-announces-new-details-of-middle-class-tax-cut-plan/

Press was more interested in reporting on other things, but Hillary did talk about the middle class.

[pnwmom]

92. Thank you. And she had a jobs plan and health care plan also to help the middle class. n/t

[bettyellen]

96. Insult who how? Seriously? Men feel insulted when they aren't the number one focus

They their accustomed to being treated as. Being ambitious and making money is a shit tasted way to impress men- IF you happen to be a woman.

[bettyellen]

98. Your reply doesn't address how you thought she was insulting white middle class men-

Having a lack of Libertarian policies has nothing to do with explaining how she "insulted" the middle class working white man who wasn't already at DT rallies spewing sexist and racist shit.

[bettyellen]

101. Didn't expect you to be so coy about this, and you're wasting my time

With this game. Later.

[bettyellen]

103. I asked about who you felt was being insulted, and you've backed out of that and made it about

Other ideas- libertarian policies, too much criticism toward Biden when he's saying things that are absolutely unfair.

He doesn't acknowledge the media's choices to ignore and curtail actual policy discussions. They thought that would be unfair since Trump couldn't actually contribute much there- so they let him set the tone of coverage. That's more accurate than pretending people were ignored.

[bettyellen]

117. Sending me be same link over and over again doesn't answer my question...

I'm not sure if you think that interview w DWS is insulting to .... young women or something? Funny to bring this up in a thread about not kissing enough WWC ass. Younger voters are less aware of the history of Dems and fell for the establishment =bad crap big time. (Some shit helped Trump and Bernie)

Younger women often don't know how much they need- or indeed owe- the previous generations of feminists. Those are trends that have been studied extensively. Not getting the insult.

Am getting really bored with the grievances of the priveledged well off, mid western self segregating Trump voters being celebrated as if they matter more than everyone else, for fucks sake. They really don't, no matter how much pandering they get heaped with, it's never enough. It's insulting to the majority of Americans to keep placing them at the head of the metaphorical table. Especiallly to Dems. Fuck that.

[betsuni]

121. +10000

[delisen]

109. Over 1000 Dem seats were lost between 2008 and 2016. Had nothing to do with Clinton

The people who voted Republican instead of Democratic in those years are the key to any analysis.

Rick Scott, was elected Governor of Wisconsin over the Democrat. Scott then won a recall vote. His wins could not have happened without Democratic support.

Wisconsin was blue in 2008 and red a few years later. Same scenario elsewhere.

Looking for a rock star to run of president every 4 years doesn't work. Republicans were worker bees, won the local elections and were proficient at propaganda ; Democrats were not.

The laundry list doesn't win presidential elections.

Many Democrats think we are smarter than Republicans, election results do not agree.

Al Gore, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton-these are not bad candidates-but Republicans have been clever in undermining voter trust in them, and in suppressing Democratic voters.

Democrats underestimate the opposition.

[H2O Man]

95. Recommended.

I agree with him on this.

[Mike Nelson]

110. Wrong...

...respectfully disagree with Joe. The media did warp the messages, but they were clear. For example, Hillary gave many speeches targeting the voters Joe says she ignored - but the media ignored them for the latest Trump rant. The covered Hillary giving a major speech about Trump's inadequacies, but turned away if she talked about her plans. They wanted, also, to hear her talk about her use of the Clinton's email server. She could not apologize the correct way - no matter what she said... they would say she didn't use the word "sorry" so she did and then she didn't say "regret" and sorry within three words of each other... it was endless...

And, of course, she won the vote. So, Hillary's message was more popular than Trump's message.

My guess is that Joe's grief obscured some of this - and, of course, everyone thinks they could have done better; that's perfectly understandable.

[beam me up scottie]

115. LMAO!