Why do Hillary haters almost invariably deny Russian influence in the election?

[Fast Walker 52]

It's funny how the same people who complained endlessly about Hillary Clinton and said she was as bad as Trump are almost exactly the same ones who deny there is any merit to the Russia hacking allegations.

Most of the Bernie or bust people and various "lefty" reporters such as Glenn Greenwald and Matt Taibbi seem to do this.

I wonder why that is....

Is it because they are oh, so objective? Or because they are biased against Hillary? Or even worse, are agents of Russia?

[hrmjustin]

1. Because they enjoy mocking her.

They enjoy putting all the blame for the loss on her.

They want to justify themselves for voting third party.

And some of them hate strong women. I hate people who hate women.

[MineralMan]

2. Yes, that.

Your last point.

[Wellstone ruled]

7. If you remember the talking points

coming from the GOP,your last point rang loud and clear.

[Eliot Rosewater]

30. And because Putin hates Hillary and feared her.

Putin has agents on the ground here in many many places saying shit like "liberal elite"

They are working here on this board and everywhere trying to make sure GOP takes more power in 18

[StevieM]

32. That's exactly right. They really seem to enjoy abusing her. And that is what their treatment

often it. It is outright abusive.

[forgotmylogin]

81. It supports that she was given the raw end of the stick.

And the fact she won the popular vote shows how much she would have triumphed if not for meddling.

[okieinpain]

3. why do hillary supporters will not admit she ran

a bad campaign.

[Fast Walker 52]

6. many/most of them do admit the campaign was flawed

maybe it depends what you mean by "bad"

[StevieM]

40. I don't think most of us do. I think every campaign is flawed in some way, including Barack Obama's

2008 victory over John McCain. I remember some major mistakes that he made.

In the end, you have to overcome the inevitable flaws. And that is exactly what Hillary did.

Then came Hurricane Comey and that was that. Actually, it is impressive that she survived all the previous hits from Hurricane Comey, like his July press conference.

[lapucelle]

45. Amazing how we expect flawless perfection

from female candidates only.

I reject the contention that Hillary ran a bad campaign. She received 3,000,000 more votes than her opponent in the general.

[okieinpain]

63. I didn't expect perfection

But I didn't think she would overlook the states she would have to have. And that mess with spending only 2% with A-A businesses just blows my mind.

[lapucelle]

68. During both the primaries and the general,

I was barraged with all sorts of campaign advice from all sorts of people to send up from my very, very lowly spot in the chain. There was even one critic who would begin with, "the next time you see Hillary, tell her...." As if.

Mistakes were were certainly made (as they always are), but the "bad campaign" / "flawed candidate" memes not only overlook the bigger picture, but also serve to remove the truly bad actors from their responsibility in putting Trump in the White House.

What would have helped more, a campaign stop in WI or publicity and outrage over the Republican appointed Director of the Board of Elections refusal to locate early voting locations near the universities, spending more of the ad budget on AA businesses or a concerted, national effort to insure that certain populations were not deprived of their franchise? The Republican's rallies were televised at length daily, while the Democrat's town halls and policy speeches were routinely ignored, all in the service of ratings and revenue.

The truth of the matter is that it took a coalition of the Republicans, the Tea Party, the Trumpsters, the BoBs, the Steiners, the FBI, the Russians, a continued and casual acceptance of a gender-based double standard, and a self-serving media to deny Mrs. Clinton an electoral college victory, but they still couldn't touch her popular vote mandate.

Biden knows better, and he shouldn't be pandering to media revisionism.

[okieinpain]

84. i just get tired of people letting HRC and the DNC off the hook.

I voted for her and would again but dammit why can't the DNC learn to play the game like it's being paid.

[lapucelle]

85. I'm not sure what hook

you think Hillary Clinton should be left dangling from, and I don't know what it means "to play the game like (they're) being paid". I never thought this was a game.

Those bearing the brunt of public approbation for what what done this year to the American electorate should take a long, hard look at the role they played in getting Trump elected. If they were playing at something this cycle, they will have to learn to live with what they have wrought.

[okieinpain]

87. i disagree. i think HRC had a bad campaign and to me

they got overconfident and let their guard down. yes she had a lot against her but she only needed 85000 votes in 3 states to get across the finish line.

and i also can not forgive the fact that between her campaign and the dnc they only spent 2% of millions with black owned businesses. in my very humble opinion that is some bullshit.

even if she lost she and the dnc could have made big in roads with the AA community if they had helped some of those businesses have a really great year. instead it comes across like what a lot of people in the AA community were saying that they only give a damn about our votes.

[lapucelle]

88. I worked the ground game in a swing state.

Dozens of us traveled every weekend for months from our very safe blue state to help out where we were needed. We re-registered Democrats and devised election day voting plans to get people to the polls.

The offices of someone very high up in my state-level DNC were located in my home headquarters, so I saw how hard people at the upper levels were working. We were aware of the impact that the gutting of the Voting Rights Act could have on the election, and we fought for every voter's franchise. I never had a sense that anyone was overconfident, and I was there.

There was a reason why the President and the First Lady, Senator Sanders, activists like Michael Moore, and the candidate herself were begging people in the closing days of the campaign not to stay home, not to cast a protest vote, and to support Democratic candidates up ticket and down. It was that important.

[Squinch]

11. Because she didn't.

[jrthin]

26. Thank you. nt

[Guilded Lilly]

80. Agree!

[delisen]

12. Remember what a dreadful campaign Gore ran; and Kerry ran an even worse one?

.....or maybe Bush and Republicans knee-capped Gore by cheating? and maybe Kerry was kneecapped by the Sec of State Blackwell in Ohio----maybe Kerry failed at voter suppression or wasn't so good as Bush on fake news about military service.

Time to stop beating up on our candidates and face facts-the level playing field is a giant sinkhole on the left.

[murielm99]

17. It was such a bad campaign that

she won the popular vote. She won the debates. She had a wonderful platform, but no one would look at it.

Bad, bad Hillary.

sarcasm

[StevieM]

42. She had a great convention, in spite of the Russians' best efforts, and she won all the debates.

She ran a great race. Her haters are just enjoying being able to use the end result to say whatever they want about her.

At the end of the day, nobody could survive Hurricane Comey. Nobody.

This was the FBI's election.

[Ohioblue22]

20. oh that sentence ...

[okieinpain]

83. lol, don't worry about the grammer, you get my meaning. n/t.

[hrmjustin]

36. Her campaign was not bad like people make it out to be.

The media refused to cover her message everyday and then Comey.

[StevieM]

38. Because I think she ran a great campaign. But the FBI rigged the whole thing against her, much worse

that the Russians did.

Had Comey not intervened to help the GOP with 11 days to go she would have won--decisively. In which case nobody would be talking about what a bad campaign she ran.

The race wasn't winnable. The thugs running the FBI saw to that.

[Igel]

44. If it hadn't been a recurring issue,

Comey would have no reason to speak up.

But it was a recurring issue. Because a lot of people thought it important. And because the media kept reporting on it. Those last two bits are a vicious circle. No, it wasn't the case that the media produced the news; the news was there and people were interested in it. Consider how the Ukrainian conflict and the recent deaths continue to headline all the MSM and take up at least 25% of reporting time. Oh, they don't? It's because the populace doesn't care and so the MSM doesn't push the story. It only shows up in left-of-center sources because it's Trump-bashing fodder, not because people really care about it.


Now, in the mix was Russian shit-stirring. The media thought it important enough to keep reporting about because of this, and the populace thought it important enough to pay for the media's attention. If nobody cared, it wouldn't have made any difference. Many of those who cared were (R); many were (D); more than a few were first time voters as (D).

Even the email hacking of the DNC and scores of other places, some (D), some (R), some neither, at least officially, fed the email server issue. Why? Because if it was so easy to hack emails, then server security absolutely must be an issue.

Even many of the Brights on DU never really figured out what the "hacking" consisted of and continued to say "hacked the election." It's a metaphor that confuses and obfuscates, feeds outrage, more than it illuminates and feeds understanding. But "hacking is hacking," so it didn't matter. When some attempts were made to look at voter registration rolls, it was assumed this was somehow the same as hacking voting machines; or that deleting a lot of voter registrations would somehow go unnoticed, that nobody ever made backups. Truly amazing.

[dsc]

53. the security issue is complete bullocks

Yes, her email could have been hacked, but the official account was hacked, we know that. In other words, had she not had a private server her email would have with certainty been hacked, instead we think it might have been but there is no proof.

[pnwmom]

70. The Justice dept. had a long standing policy never to make announcements like that

in the heat of a campaign, much less in the finally 11 days.

And it WASN'T a security issue. She used the classified system for her classified documents (she had an SCIF both at home and at work), and her server for non-classified.

And they never found evidence that her server had been attacked, unlike the DNC server -- and unlike the .gov server that they had wanted her to use. That server had a huge hack of State Department emails -- but because she wasn't on it, they didn't get hers.

So to say that her emails would have been safer on the .gov system is a flat out LIE.

[sharedvalues]

54. Her campaign in many ways was great. Fatal flaw was media relations​

In today's media environment [1], any candidate needs to be incredibly proactive to shape each news cycle. They need to respond quickly and aggressively to lies and use many surrogates to amplify their own message.

Hillary is by nature not aggressive with the media. It stinks, but that's why she lost despite being a better candidate in every other way and being far better on the issues.



[1]. Maybe we should say 2016's media environment. Journalists in for-profit media jobs are starting to wake up, and Americans are realizing how poorly infotainment serves the country.

[brush]

60. Not really. She got 3M more votes despite Russians, Crosscheck, Comey...

and vote suppression in many POC districts.

Why do some alleged progressives not admit that trump's campaign cheated, the depths of which is still unfolding and will likely result in indictments?

[pnwmom]

69. If Comey hadn't dropped his letter bomb during early voting, she would have won by 3 million votes

or more. As it is, even with his two dirty bombs, she won by 2.9 million.

What he did to her could not be anticipated and that means she did not run a bad campaign.

[joeybee12]

77. Maybe because she didn't...she ran a very good campaign...nt

[caroldansen]

4. Same reason you would protect your child or pet if they did something bad. You wouldnt

want them to get in trouble for it. Which probably means theyre hiding something. Are they rich. Could they possibly be hiding money in russia under a fake name to avoid paying united states taxes on it to the irs?

[lapucelle]

46. "Could they possibly be hiding money in Russia..."

Who's the "they" in your sentence?

[aikoaiko]

5. I think it's because some people with legit disagreements with HRC ...

...are concerned that their beliefs are being attributed the Russian fake news or the hacked emails.

While the activities of the Russians appear verified, their impact is not as well documented.

[Fast Walker 52]

9. well, that makes sense... hadn't thought of that

but I doubt that is the only reason

[aikoaiko]

10. I can't speak for GG but more for the rank and file.

It's despicable what the Russians did and we need to punish them and prevent it from happening again as much as we can.

[SCVDem]

8. MSNBC in S. Carolina this morning

One guy called the Russian stories crap. Another said it was a Democratic conspiracy to bring down dump.

The stupid is deep among these folks.

[GWC58]

14. You don't mean the

Make Murica Great Agin crowd?

[Tribalceltic]

13. Not only the russian influence...

The Bots, the false accusations, Benghazi, Emails, and the Comey attack, oh and BernieBots who spread all of the above and refuse to take responsibility. The Election was stolen, and the primary was heavily influenced not only by Russian intelligence operatives but also by propaganda spread by right wing news agencies and organized religious institutions.

[delisen]

15. Nobody wants to admit they were duped by Vladimir Putin and his Int. Fake News Empire

It smarts; it burns.

[Control-Z]

19. I see what you did there.

Unless that wasn't intentional. Then nevermind.

[McCamy Taylor]

16. Because some of them were Russian agents.

[delisen]

18. It is difficult to admit that one has been manipulated into bringing about a national tragedy

Greenwald got entangled in the Russian spider web, without realizing it.

I don't think Greenwald is knowingly an agent but when a person has done battle with the NSA and CIA for patriotic reasons, one can fall into either/or thinking.

Or to paraphrase that infamous Russian asset, Donald Trump, who when asked about Russian political killers said: Do you think we're so pure?

Assange, I believe, is a willing agent of Russia.

[JI7]

25. disagree about greenwald being unknoWning

He knew exactly what he was doing and it's what he wanted.

He isn't a liberal.

[roamer65]

21. They are fascists and thus love Pootie.

Since Dump loves Pootie, they love him.

[L. Coyote]

22. Did you do some sort of scientific study and statistial analysis?

Or is this based on anecdotal experience?

Seems like a divisive post to me.

[Fast Walker 52]

39. I'll put it this way... every lefty/independent reporter who previously criticized HRC and the CF

also dispute the Russian hacking. I don't know of any who has said they buy the hacking evidence. There's a half dozen at least, they have such people on "Democracy Now" all the time, or are on lefty podcasts I listen to such as "Unauthorized Disclosure", "The Matthew Filipowicz Show" and "Cindy Sheehan's Soapbox".

The same goes for people I know on FB who pushed similar anti-HRC stories.

I honestly don't know any exceptions to this.

I even know someone who is ambivalent about HRC and equally ambivalent about the hacking. It just seem like these two positions go together quite naturally.

Sorry if it is divisive, I just thought it was a striking correlation.

[Maven]

23. Because it negates their argument that she lost because she was a bad candidate. nt

[Fast Walker 52]

34. yeah, definitely part of it

[Recursion]

24. Because the woman in the shawl with Putin and Flynn is Jill Stein

Go to a local Green Party meeting and ask why Dr. Stein was there. I found the response... illuminating.

[Mrs. Overall]

29. Bingo. I think Stein has something to do with the hacking.

[Fast Walker 52]

33. hmmm, what do they say?

I certainly got totally soured on the Greens and anyone who pushes them in this past election.

The choice was huge and the differences stark.

[Recursion]

35. In my case, they said "Security!"

Seriously. I was told to leave immediately. I wasn't ranting or screaming or anything. I asked in an inside voice why Dr. Stein attended a gala for RT's 10th anniversary and sat at a table with Flynn and Putin, and was kicked out of the meeting (which was an open Green/DC Statehood town hall).

[Fast Walker 52]

41. Wow, that's sad...

so much for them being beacons of democracy and honesty... well, we knew it was a ruse anyway.

[still_one]

27. You notice that pattern to

[Lint Head]

28. Because the propaganda, now called fake news, works.

Propaganda has worked many times. It works so well that some lies, using propaganda told a century ago, is still believed today.

[Kahuna7]

31. On twitter they say Democrats chose a bad, losing candidate (because Bernie).They

totally ignore that she was ahead by several points up until, comey and wikileaks.

[HoneyBadger]

37. If you want a historic perspective that has little to do with current events

Demonization of foreign enemies has historically been regrettable. And I am going back way, way before Iraq.

Just saw that 1984 is getting a major free screening. It would be reasonable to assume that this is directed against Trump's world order. But even this screening mentions the narrative of demonizing foreign enemies.

Filmlinc.com


7:00 screening followed by a panel with New York Magazine book critic Christian Lorentzen and critic–curator Ashley Clark.

On April 4, 2017 , over 140 art house movie theaters across the country will be collectively participating in a screening of 1984. The Film Society is proud to join our friends in the film community to consider the issues raised by this important movie.

George Orwell’s novel begins with the sentence “It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.” His portrait of a government that manufactures its own facts, demands total obedience, and demonizes foreign enemies has never felt timelier. On the fourth of the month, the day Orwell’s protagonist Winston Smith begins rebelling against the oppressive State by keeping a forbidden diary, the Film Society will present Michael Radford’s powerful adaptation, starring the late John Hurt as Winston. We hope you will join us at this crossroads of cinema and community for a much needed conversation at a time when facts and basic human rights are endangered.

[Kentonio]

43. I think the Russia stuff is very real.

I also think sexism played a significant role. Despite believing both those things, I think she was a poor candidate, and a better one would have totally destroyed Trump despite what games the Russians chose to play.

It does get extremely tiring though when some Democrats keep suggesting that anyone who doesn't think she was the bestest candidate ever must be a Russian troll or a closet sexist. We're allowed in a free society to have more complex opinions than just 'with us or against us'.

[Fast Walker 52]

72. of course, I agree with you although

I'm not sure about a better candidate destroying Trump, given all the funny business in the campaign.

Mostly I was referring to people in the media who specifically ran critical pieces on HRC, and then now deny the Russian evidence.

[Kentonio]

74. I'd treat anyone with suspicion who denies the Russia links now.

It's fair enough to ask for evidence before making a final conclusion, but what has come out so far looks extremely damning.

[lapucelle]

47. Because they don't want to face the fact that they were played

by the Russians as useful idiots.

[Orsino]

49. Or in some small way complicit.

Any hint that their side was compromised calls all their decisions into question.

[Demonaut]

48. assholes maybe?

they like the assholes on the other side?

[lapucelle]

50. Stop sugar-coating it!

[Renew Deal]

51. They are covering for the boss

[TheDebbieDee]

52. Their feelings of guilt over their GULLIBILITY!

[Lisa0825]

55. This.

They don't want to admit that they fell for the scheme, hook, line, and sinker.

[Mr. Ected]

56. Because they still hate Hillary and the Russian stuff was made up by the lame stream media?

Because that's the scope of their world and the boundary of their intellectual curiosity.

[Historic NY]

57. They are Russian trolls.....

[HopeAgain]

58. Feeling grumpy? just needed to snipe?

Why do people keep picking fights in here?

Time to unify because this Country is getting screwed as we speak.

[Fast Walker 52]

71. NO, not trying to pick a fight and I'm not grumpy. I thought it was a striking correlation

how do we unify with lefties who deny Russian hacking?

[alwaysinflux]

59. It's not about Hillary anymore

I think the opposition doesn't understand that most of us have moved on from Hillary. It's about preserving our democracy.

[oberliner]

61. Greenwald is pro-Russia

And he is no lefty. He was on Fox News with Tucker Carlson and they were pretty much in agreement on everything.

[Ilsa]

62. They believe the Russian propaganda.

And there is little reasoning with them.

[L. Coyote]

64. Why do you say people hate Hillary?

That's not nice.

[Fast Walker 52]

73. it was just an easy term to use in the title, admittedly not the best term

but there were people in the media and on FB who clearly hated Hillary.

I wasn't basing it on people on DU at all... though if the shoe fits...

[betsuni]

65. Because the only conspiracies they don't believe are true ones.

Reality bounces right off that teflon layer of denial.

[Cha]

66. Don't forget Pawns for Putin, stein.. they're all

pawns.. follow the money

[nikibatts]

67. Because they want to.

[R B Garr]

75. Great responses here. I've noticed that, too.

The denial and dismissal of actual data that Hillary was sabotaged doesn't fit in with their preferred purity ethos, so it must be rejected. That is confirmation that they prefer their own versions of fake news.

[DetlefK]

76. Refusing to admit they were wrong.

[Turbineguy]

78. They like to believe they have

free will. They voted for trump because they analyzed the choices carefully, made a rational decision and did not do what the Russians or Fox News told them to do.

It could also be that the Democratic party was manipulated into running Hillary Clinton because she was an easy target. While she was obviously the best qualified for the job by any metric, she was also easy to target for the hate and gut response of the lizard brain right. None of the other candidates evoked such a strong negative response. Many years of anti-Clinton propaganda insured this. This was the problem with Sanders, sure, he was a socialist, but he did not have nearly three decades of manufactured right-wing hate to bring to the table.

The Russians are good at this. They are slow and patient. They kept a terrible system functioning for 70 years. In our case, they've been working on this since at least the late 70's. The slow degradation of the republican party, shifting to be in control of what used to be called "the lunatic fringe". Trump coming along was manna from heaven. Everything was already in place.

This election wasn't based on any rational thought. In fact the object was to avoid it. The Russians built the clock and they know how it ticks.

[asuhornets]

79. The Hillary haters do not want to belive that this was an illegitimate election...

They want to believe that the people voted against her-but they didn't

[Blue_Tires]

82. Because they're in the tank...

You'll even see the same Moscow talking points being parroted daily, word for word...

[Orrex]

86. In some cases, the math is too much for them

"How can you claim that she had 3M more votes than our Sacred Supreme leader and Holy Father Trump if Russia meddled in the election? Isn't that proof that Russia meddled on her behalf?"

I've had this exchange several times, and after I've explained the electoral college to them in a way that even a sleeping toddler could understand, they say "Well what about her illegal email server?"