"Outrage over Russian Hacking Claims is Laughable"

[SHRED]

In light of who Putin is and what his crime ridden oligarchs have murdered and plundered I need to ask:

Is Chomsky going senile?

"So why are the Democrats focusing on this? In fact, why are they focusing so much attention on the one element of Trump’s programs which is fairly reasonable, the one ray of light in this gloom: trying to reduce tensions with Russia?"

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/17256

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. There are a lot of Russia apologists on the Left, unfortunately.

I didn't think he would be one of them.

[Warpy]

27. Not as many as you apparently think

The party's heyday was in the 1920s and 1930s when they were warning about and standing up to Hitler and his domestic apologists like Prescott Bush. Once people found out where Stalin and later Krushchev were really at, they quietly drifted away and hoped like hell they weren't rich and famous enough to be targeted by the HUAC.

That has persisted as leftists with the brain cells it takes to be a leftist recognized that the "Communism" in Russia was largely a totalitarian, right wing phenomenon, the party having taken the places of the Czar and his aristocrats, the people still powerless.

Now they're well aware that the country is still controlled by old communists who grabbed all they could during the transition to whatever it is now.

Everything is antithetical to the American left over there. Maybe there are college kids who romanticize the early revolutionary period. There are also college kids who take Rand seriously. They'll all grow out of it.

[L. Coyote]

30. There are a lot of people spinning BS on DU too.

Read what Chomsky said carefully instead of reading what the poster's characterization says.

[jrthin]

2. Yikes. nt

[FrenchieCat]

3. In his mind; Communism equals Russia

Norm Schomsky is from the old school and most likely doesn't find as much wrong with Communisn as he does with Capitalism! But He needs to update to modern day and know that
Russia = Totalitarianism

[onenote]

11. The old Soviet Union wasn't totalitarian?

[QC]

16. He's not a communist. n/t

[gratuitous]

4. Certainly tensions with Russia have been reduced; no question about it

The Russians aren't having to listen to concerns about human rights or war crimes or crimes against humanity, so I'll bet that makes for a far more congenial atmosphere right there. I don't know that I'd call that a "ray of light," though.

[NCTraveler]

5. Reducing tensions with Russia isn't a bad thing.

Having them holding any decision making power over our country because of our President is disastrous.

[Squinch]

21. Well said. How do they not see this?

[guillaumeb]

6. One of Chomsky's points:

NOAM CHOMSKY: It’s a pretty remarkable fact that—first of all, it is a joke. Half the world is cracking up in laughter. The United States doesn’t just interfere in elections. It overthrows governments it doesn’t like, institutes military dictatorships. Simply in the case of Russia alone—it’s the least of it—the U.S. government, under Clinton, intervened quite blatantly and openly, then tried to conceal it, to get their man Yeltsin in, in all sorts of ways. So, this, as I say, it’s considered—it’s turning the United States, again, into a laughingstock in the world.

I highlighted the relevant portion.

The US has interfered since 1804 in the affairs of other countries, and continues to this day. The world is aware of this even if most US citizens are not. Or choose to ignore it.

[SHRED]

9. No one I know ignores it

[guillaumeb]

15. The media ignores it.

As do many history textbooks.

As do politicians.

[bettyellen]

10. You think the Russian interference is something to laugh about? Or well deserved?

Make your point, if you have one.

[SHRED]

14. Exactly

[guillaumeb]

17. My point was to point out what Chomsky said about US electoral interference.

Pot, meet kettle.

I in no way excuse any electoral interference, no matter which country interferes. In my view, GOP gerrymandering, dirty money, voting machine tampering, and voter suppression far outweigh what the Russians might have accomplished.

[bettyellen]

20. You think Russian involvement is over? And you're not all that upset about their election since

It's fifth on your list. Interesting take on things. I see a lot of people more upset there weren't "enough debates" in the primary that the invasion of phoney news we saw, I'm guessing because they're also the people who reposted and tweeted the bullshit from Wiki and RT.
I get where their sense of shame has overwhelmed their sense of responsibility to our democracy. They need to get over it.

[delisen]

24. Russian interference is white Christian nationalism going global. The Republican Party

interference is the the sam thing.

[brush]

18. Stephen Kinzer's book, "Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq...

Last edited Tue Apr 4, 2017, 11:11 PM - Edit history (1)

lays it all out.

But that still doesn't mean we should just shrug our shoulders that Putin helped install a woman groping, racist, anti-immigrant misogynist into the White House.

Fuck that. We should be mad as hell.

And for the record, Obama stayed away from regime change, and has been constantly attack by many for not going into Syria.

[guillaumeb]

19. Agreed. The US first interfered, as I said, in Haiti and Canada,

and continues. And I did not say or imply that any electoral interference is acceptable, but GOP electoral interference is likely far greater than anything Russia may have done.

[brush]

25. Interstate Crosscheck and repug vote suppression tactics were huge. Agreed. Plus Comey.

[pangaia]

26. I made this point about US history a while back, or suggested it. Just as a point of historical fact

I certainly wasn't intending to imply any support for Russian influence in the election, but was bullied about it. When I fought back I got a hide.

I have Russian friends in Russia and elsewhere, and their opinions and understanding of all this is quite thought-provoking.

Fortunately those I know in St Petersburg are all safe, as are their families.

[guillaumeb]

34. Chomsky has talked about what are the acceptable limits of debate.

And you encountered one. Given how the US has maneuvered to literally surround Russia with NATO bases, if Russia established bases in Canada and Mexico, what would be the US reaction? We both know that there would be bipartisan outrage.

Only the US is allowed to run the world.

[pangaia]

35. Even in this thread quite a few do not seem to understand what you are saying.

As soon as you (I), or anyone, criticize(s) the US for past/present behavior, suddenly we are US haters, Russia lovers. etc..

Actually I DO love St. Petersburg, as I have noted here before.
I get goose bumps any time I am on the way there...

And this is where I usually go--
https://www.mariinsky.ru/en/

[guillaumeb]

36. Cognitive dissonance?

I understand the focus on the many Trump-Russia connections.

But Putin is not the reason that the GOP has taken over hundreds of seats on the State and National level.

Putin is not the one who gerrymandered 30 states, and suppressed votes, and eliminated hundreds of thousands of voters from voting lists.

Putin did not write the Buckley v Valeo and Citizens United v FEC decisions.

I also think that it, the Russia lover labelling, is an attempt to shut down debate.

[BeyondGeography]

7. The one ray of light?

Oy.

Here's to the war on democracies, I guess.

[bettyellen]

8. He hates the main stream media so much I'm thinking he's cheering on it's destruction....

[TeamPooka]

12. Why are so many calling "compromising government officials" "reducing tensions with Russia"?

[spanone]

13. uh, ask congress, there are two congressional investigations...go ask them

Last edited Tue Apr 4, 2017, 07:55 PM - Edit history (1)

they are also chaired by republicans......

[Adrahil]

22. Yeah, Chomsky has been a Soviet Union/Russia apologist. NT

[delisen]

23. The far left does either/or thinking. Hitler was Evil therefore Stalin was good.

Being understanding of Russia's desire for lebensraum or a buffer from attack by the West is pathetic.

We need to move on from the old left's analysis of Russia. The fact is when Russia went from the Czar to the Dictatorship of the Proletariat it moved from Totalitarianism to Totalitarianism.

A lot of academic liberals took a long time to face the truth about the USSR. I used to feel for them because they were idealists and wanted the USSR to succeed.

I no longer have patience with the -isms.

A smooth talking dictator who stages fake press conferences and can sing"Blueberry Hill" is still a dictator.

[Warpy]

28. He'll be 89 this year

I met him 30 years ago and he's a surprisingly nice man, surprisingly because I was all set to have to cut him a lot of slack the way I always did the rich and/or famous. Most of them need it.

If he's slipping at all, he's earned the right. I do find this statement puzzling, having a foreign power interfere so much with a US election is a very big deal, no matter which foreign power. Candidates are not supposed to take foreign money, let alone ask them for help hacking an opponent. He's usually a lot sharper than this, unless he's decided that US elections have been shit for so many years it doesn't matter any more and won't matter until it's 100% paper ballots, counted by hand.

[grantcart]

32. Interesting, what were the circumstances of you meeting him.

I have found him either brilliant or simply trying to be provocative.

[Warpy]

33. I worked at MIT for a while.

[L. Coyote]

29. The outrage isn't over the idea of easing tensions, it is about stealing elections. YUUUge diff.

Easing tensions is easy, Russia can stop invading other countries, killing political opponents, hating freedom, hacking Democrats, fixing US elections, etc., etc.

[Downtown Hound]

31. He's one of those of the leftist camps

that always condemn America but try and justify everything other countries do. Because even when they do something bad, somehow it's always our fault.