Physician removed forcibly from United flight after overbooking--UPDATED

[FDRsGhost]

Last edited Mon Apr 10, 2017, 12:26 PM - Edit history (1)

UPDATED--- This is now trending #1 world wide on twitter I think United is losing a lot of customers today.

This is really bad....

The flight was apparently over booked and United began randomly removing passengers because of it. The person they removed however in this case was a physician who needed to see patients in the morning. The next flight out was 24 hours later. He was knocked unconscious.

There are several videos of the incident which were posted to Twitter by passengers;

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Man Pulled Off United Flight After Louisville Flight Oversold
CHICAGO, Ill. (WHAS11) -- A Louisville TV station is reporting that a man had to be physically removed from a flight headed from Chicago's O'Hare airport to Louisville.

Multiple tweets were posted showing the incident. United Airlines tells WHAS-11 that the flight was oversold and the man refused to give up his seat after he was bumped.

The man was forced out of his seat by officials and dragged down the aisle.

This man said he had to get home and refused to voluntarily give up his seat and that's when we are told the police were called to remove him. A witness said the man told the flight attendants he had patients to see and could not give up his seat.

A statement from United Airlines told WHAS-11 that, “Flight 3411 from Chicago to Louisville was overbooked. After our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate. We apologize for the overbook situation.”

http://www.lex18.com/story/35109337/man-pulled-off-united-flight-after-louisville-flight-oversold

[dembotoz]

1. Every now and then the privileged class lose their privilege

[FDRsGhost]

4. He's a doctor who needed to see patients

I'd say he's entitled. We don't know, it could be a life or death situation.

[HoneyBadger]

9. The patient would have gone to the ER

[FDRsGhost]

11. And if the patient was already hospitalized?

Because I'm hearing he's hospital staff.

What a mess though. "Voluntary"? Not any sort of "voluntary" I've ever seen.

[HoneyBadger]

15. Then there should be many many doctors in that setting

[FDRsGhost]

31. True but as someone with a rare disease myself

Not everybody can look at me. Specialists or gonna specialize XD I'm sure more will emerge in coming hours about all of this

[former9thward]

41. Everything is so perfect and ordered in your world isn't it?

[HoneyBadger]

46. Yes it is

[JTFrog]

76. Talk about privilege.

Just sayin.....

[janterry]

365. Yup

[deepcover]

166. HoneyBadger

Wow "HoneyBadger doesn't to give a fuck" hmm where have I heard that saying? Who uses the honey badger as their anthem.
Looking at your posts your writing style is similar to that of another "HoneyBadger" from several different sites. Do you use that handle elsewhere? Just asking. See you

[HoneyBadger]

197. I do not but would like links

[thesquanderer]

103. Not all doctors are equally capable.

You may have chosen to see a particular doctor. If the airline's action forces you to see a different doctor, and things don't go well with that doctor, there's a potential "unintended consequence" for you.

I agree with those who say, if an airline must overbook, they need to offer increasing cash incentives until they have enough people who will volunteer to give up their seat. The whole idea of overbooking is that they are gambling on odds. But at least with "real" gambling, the house can *sometimes* lose.

[TXCritter]

159. We are not machines. Doctors are not interchangeable

Your response sees how badly the insurance health denial system has damaged the expectations of patients. There are many many cases where substituting doctors can result in injury or death.

[HoneyBadger]

215. I see doctors all the time

And one can substitute for the other every single time in my case.

If substituting doctors results in injury or death in many many cases, there is something terribly wrong with those doctors.

Occasionally the doctor's office calls me to reschedule because they are out of the office, routine.

The office usually takes blood pressure, the doctor looks at your test results and they talk to you for 3 minutes.

Is this guy a Ben Carson doing the first ever surgery of its kind tomorrow?

Or is he more likely a typical doctor that is seeing 5-20 patients that have scheduled their appointments.

If it is a matter of life and death, I feel that the ER is where the patients should be.

Feel free to prove me wrong with facts.

[tallahasseedem]

234. You're dead wrong...

especially when dealing with a specific surgeon or Oncologist.

[cab67]

279. Depends on the patient

For the problems I've had in my life, any doctor would more than likely be as good as any other.

For my father, when he was dealing with the throat cancer that eventually killed him? Not even close - there were other situations in play (diabetes most importantly), and swapping doctors when there are multiple patient-specific variables involved is not a good idea.

[uppityperson]

302. Because you have never needed to see a specific doctor, they are therefore all interchangable?

Doctors are able to be substituted by another doctor even in another specialty? If a doctor is not able to be substituted by another doctor, there is something terribly wrong with those doctors?

Because you are lucky enough to not need to see a doctor for more than 3 minutes, anyone who does should go to the ER instead?

If a person needs to see a doctor to monitor their meds or health due to a condition and they need a particular doctor who is trained, experienced, and has history with this person's history, or if they need to see them longer than 3 minutes, they should be fine with seeing any other doctor or just go to the ER?

Wow. You are wrong. Dead wrong. And I speak from the position of being an old RN who has worked in many settings, clinics, including specialties, hospitals and ERs, SNFs, etc etc.

https://www.jmu.edu/esol/specialist_list.htm

Allergist or Immunologist - conducts the diagnosis and treatment of allergic conditions.
Anesthesiologist - treats chronic pain syndromes; administers anesthesia and monitors the patient during surgery.

Cardiologist - treats heart disease

Dermatologist -treats skin diseases, including some skin cancers

Gastroenterologist - treats stomach disorders

Hematologist/Oncologist - treats diseases of the blood and blood-forming tissues (oncology including cancer and other tumors)

Internal Medicine Physician - treats diseases and disorders of internal structures of the body.

Nephrologist - treats kidney diseases.

Neurologist - treats diseases and disorders of the nervous system.

Neurosurgeon - conducts surgery of the nervous system.

Obstetrician - treats women during pregnancy and childbirth

Gynecologist - treats diseases of the female reproductive system and genital tract.

Nurse-Midwifery - manages a woman's health care, especially during pregnancy, delivery, and the postpartum period.

Occupational Medicine Physician - diagnoses and treats work-related disease or injury.

Ophthalmologist - treats eye defects, injuries, and diseases.

Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon - surgically treats diseases, injuries, and defects of the hard and soft tissues of the face, mouth, and jaws.

Orthopaedic Surgeon - preserves and restores the function of the musculoskeletal system.

Otolaryngologist (Head and Neck Surgeon) - treats diseases of the ear, nose, and throat,and some diseases of the head and neck, including facial plastic surgery.

Pathologist - diagnoses and treats the study of the changes in body tissues and organs which cause or are caused by disease

Pediatrician - treats infants, toddlers, children and teenagers.

Plastic Surgeon - restores, reconstructs, corrects or improves in the shape and appearance of damaged body structures, especially the face.

Podiatrist - provides medical and surgical treatment of the foot.

Psychiatrist - treats patients with mental and emotional disorders.

Pulmonary Medicine Physician - diagnoses and treats lung disorders.

Radiation Onconlogist - diagnoses and treats disorders with the use of diagnostic imaging, including X-rays, sound waves, radioactive substances, and magnetic fields.

Diagnostic Radiologist - diagnoses and medically treats diseases and disorders of internal structures of the body.

Rheumatologist - treats rheumatic diseases, or conditions characterized by inflammation, soreness and stiffness of muscles, and pain in joints and associated structures

Urologist - diagnoses and treats the male and female urinary tract and the male reproductive system

[Ms. Toad]

316. Wow. You are obviously extremely lucky with your health.

My daughter has a rare disease, which people travel thousands of miles to have treated by specific physicians who are the only ones who have expertise in this disease and the comorbid diseases. Within months after diagnosis she traveled to Boston (550 miles away) several times a year to participate in a drug trial. The trial was open to her becuase it had been an ongoing trial for 2 years - attempting (and failing) to find the 15 local trial participants it needed. It ultimately terminated with 9 patients - including my daughter.

A friend of ours, who is on staff at the Cleveland Clinic, has the same disease and has been waiting more than a month with a very aggressive comorbid cancer because the only potentially life-saving treatment available is at the Mayo Clinic.

And that's just my daughter and her disase.

I was left under anesthesia for hours while I waited for my doctor, who was called in to fix up the job another could nto finish, because the surgery is delicate enough that most people develop life-long nerve complications. (Fortunately, because no one tried to tell me that my doctor was fungible, I have no complications.)

So no, doctors are not fungible.

[HoneyBadger]

336. I am sympathetic to your family's rare circumstance and wish for the best outcome

But I do not feel that your medical needs are typical, I do not believe that they in any way support privilege for the average doctor, and finally I have deep concerns that managed healthcare, including single payer, is designed to fit your needs. It appears that you bypassed the "system" in order to find the best possible oneoff solution.

Reminds me of a Tom Wolfe Master of the Universe. In all of Wall Street there were only 600 people who could do what he did.

Kudos on finding your own Masters of the Universe.

[Ms. Toad]

373. It is an interesting juggling act.

Aside from constantly teaching the insurance company how their system works (including making them revise their software twice because it did not match the polich), traditional health insurance manages so far (from straight Medicaid, to managed care medicaid to traditional and non-traditional Kaiser, POS, and PPO).

Fortunately, aside from the trial, we haven't had to travel for medical care. The comorbid cancer would require travel, but indications so far are that she is at lower risk for it than most with the disease. So we haven't had to deal with cross-state lines, although both my daughter and I have (separately) received permission for out-of-network care to be treated as in-network.

But my point wasn't addressed to whether doctors should have special privileges - but to whether they are fungible. Aside from family physicians, ours generally aren't. My daughter's circumstances are unusual, but more common than you think. And, although my conditions are only uncommon, rather than rare, I have one that few doctors even pretend to be able to fix - and another that multiple doctors purport to be able to fix, but their success rate is abysmal - and their complication rate (permanent nerve damage) approaches 50%.

Unfortunately, my Master of the Universe moved a few hundred miles away- so I'll just hope I'm done with that problem - coz I'm not subjecting myself to his former colleagues.

[anneboleyn]

379. This is ridiculous. Ignored.

[HoneyBadger]

382. That seems factual

Not

[femmedem]

406. Lucky you. My father had to wait several weeks for a surgery even though he was told

he had to have it within several weeks or he wouldn't be alive to have it later.

It took that long to find an opening in a qualified surgeon's schedule. And he was looking all over the country. In fact, because his case was urgent, that surgeon delayed someone else's less urgent surgery in order to see my father more quickly.

[DK504]

150. So were any white people knocked unconscious?

They assaulted a doctor that had patients, he declained the offer of "voluntary" vacating of his seat and police brutality ensues.

" We apologize for the overbook situation.”

Hope these fuckers get their asses sued for millions. The airline, the "cops" and the flight attendents personally. They chose him, we saw no one else being forced off the plane. Did he ever recieve any medical attention?

[whathehell]

320. Oh, for Fuck's sake....This sounds a lot more like an employee prefence

situation, than a racial one...Seriously -- Everything really isn't about race ALL the time.

[womanofthehills]

427. Sounds racial to me and the guy is 69 yrs old - kicking seniors off planes - great

His wife was kicked off too.

[whathehell]

437. Yeah, to some people everything does..

I'm not supporting his treatment, which looked absolutely awful, just saying I see no reason to believe it was race-based.

[treestar]

448. True that, they should pick younger people

Or specifically ask to see who has the least problem with a change.

[athena]

98. Seriously?

A patient should be forced to go to the ER, just so United can get its service staff to where they need to be without having to give up real cash?

I can't believe a DUer is actually suggesting that it's OK to bump a physician off his flight and force his patient to go to the ER, just so that United is able to get out of a problem it created in the first place.

Citizens United was right. This is, indeed, a country where corporations are people, too. And the concerns of corporation-people are more important than those of us old-fashioned, regular, human people.

[HoneyBadger]

124. Given that we are all pushing for single payer

What do you think you are pushing for? No privilege for anyone, and that includes doctors. Sure you want to get the top rated specialist in the world, but odds are, you are going to have a nurse take blood and you will talk to the doctor for 3 minutes. Very very few people can only be cared for by a single doctor in a hospital.

[athena]

179. Are you also against having to yield for ambulances?

After all, ambulances are just vehicles, like every other vehicle, and should wait their turn.

I said nothing about top-rated specialists. You're the one who said the physician should be kicked off his flight, and his patients sent to the ER.

I can't believe you're now claiming that this has anything to do with single-payer health care. Single-payer health care does not mean we pretend physicians don't save lives and that all doctors are the same. Even with single-payer health care, you get to choose your doctor. I used to live in Canada, so I know.

[HoneyBadger]

207. Yes, yield to ambulances that are on their way to emergencies

Not to ambulances that need to be there tomorrow

[HoneyBadger]

243. I find this post relevant to top rated specialists

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8914179

[synergie]

184. Why do you assume he works in a hospital? What if he was in private practice with no coverage?

[BannonsLiver]

217. Because Honey Badger knows all

He's the cool kid in the jean jacket and the smokes rolled up in his t-shirt who just doesn't give a fuck.

[HoneyBadger]

223. It was stated by the OP somewhere in this thread, please delete your post

[womanofthehills]

430. Passengers said he works in a hospital - and he's one yr short of 70 yrs old

First people to kick off the plane - go for the seniors.

[synergie]

439. That's what people assume when they hear doctor and patient and older guys

would be the ones with old practices and who might lack coverage in their private practices.

This is a tangential conversation, I'm still not sure why any of this okay to do anyone, regardless of profession. The whole assaulting an older gentleman is just completely insane.

All they had to do was explain the situation and sweeten the deal, instead they did the most moronic thing possible. The sheer level of criminal stupid is just astounding, especially on the heels of that legging thing, and the knowledge that everyone has a camera and that any video is going out to the word in mere seconds.

That's if you get past the whole, you attacked a senior citizen FFS.

[Horse with no Name]

213. Um that is bullshit

People fly in from all over the world to see the physician that I work for. It takes months to get an appointment and then it takes 6 months to get on the surgery schedule.
He sees the patient himself for 30 minute appointments. I don't even lay eyes on them until the plan is decided.
Physicians are not replaceable cogs.

[HoneyBadger]

219. Are you saying that no other doctor could do what he does?

If so, he is not replaceable. And he is a rarity. The exception proves the rule.

Are the majority those patients using health insurance to pay the bill?

[Horse with no Name]

280. There are 2 others

In the entire country. So pretty much, yes, that is what I am saying.

This is at a major university hospital. The majority of what we do is patient funded through insurance and government funding. However, there is some that isn't.

[HoneyBadger]

381. How does one get worldwide health coverage?

[Horse with no Name]

410. I don't work with reimbursement so I am

Not sure how that is done. We are a tertiary care center and we do a considerable amount of charity each year.

[womanofthehills]

432. Are you saying, senior citizens should be kicked off the plane first

HE IS ONE YR SHORT OF 70 yrs old.

[HoneyBadger]

444. It did not have anything to do with age

He felt that it was pure racism and misandry...




“He was kind of saying that he was being singled out because he’s a Chinese man” when speaking to the manager, who was African-American, Bridges said. “You should know what this is like,” the man said, according to Bridges. The AP was unable to confirm the passenger’s identity

[NewRedDawn]

402. Fuck Fascist United Airlines

& their mother Fucking Security as well as the corrupt fucking Chicago Police too!

[synergie]

109. Judging from more informative articles, it would not have been a single patient.

They were forcibly removing the man from the plane and putting him on a flight at 3 pm the next day. That is a whole day of patients, at least 20 to 30 people affected.

All because United apparently is beyond incompetent. They overbooked, and forcibly ejected (and injured) an older man so they could seat 4 employees.

[HoneyBadger]

127. And what if those 4 employees were on their way to work flights that carried even more vital doctors

[synergie]

182. Even if the gentleman was retired and had no patients waiting for him,

United sti would be at fault for attacking him like they did. He had paid his ticket, boarded and was seated. Why does his profession actuay matter here? Also, what level of doctoring is considered vital or non vital? Are there not other pilots or people to serve drinks that tbey needed to do this to a paid, boarded and seated customer?

[HoneyBadger]

209. Did United actually attack him?

I suspect that it was federal employees

[Lyricalinklines]

249. That apparently acted on being involved by United. Yes?

United calls federal security then federal security acts on their training that the situation calls for federal security to intervene. United representatives need be responsible for involving federal law.

[HoneyBadger]

254. When you call the police, you are responsible for their actions?

[Lyricalinklines]

267. I see we could be comparing apples and oranges here.

In this situation, with my understanding, United called federal security officers. This escalated the situation to a federal level meaning a federal threat is being tended. That means checks and balances are assumed to occur and that a federal security is believed to be involved. If a federal security threat is not found, then those involving federal authorities did so wrongly.

Physical harm to a paying customer occurred after he was seated so a business could meet staffing goals. How that business acted to meet those goals is at question.

[synergie]

272. Watch the video. United is responsible here, their own incompetence.

[athena]

183. Why couldn't United offer cash instead of paltry vouchers?

If United had offered $1500 or $2000 in cash, someone on that plane whose trip was not urgent would have taken it, I guarantee it.

If no one took it, why couldn't United pay for limousine service to get their people to their destination? Or arrange for them to be on a different flight with another carrier? Or on a cargo flight?

It seems your concern is more with saving United money than with the patients of the doctor. It's sad that so many Americans are so quick to identify with the concerns of giant corporations, and so devoid of empathy when it comes to regular people.

[Horse with no Name]

218. Two recent trips that I took

Both were oversold.
They don't provide overnight accommodations anymore and all of your food and drinks are on your tab.
There is no incentive for anyone to miss their flight.
The airlines need to stop overbooking or pony up some benefits for agreeing to take another flight.

[athena]

228. Wow. So all you get is a voucher, and beyond that you're on your own.

I had no idea. No wonder no one accepts those vouchers any more.

This is why we need regulations. Without regulations, corporations have no incentive to treat human beings with fairness, respect, and dignity.

[Bettie]

246. And those vouchers

won't even cover the cost of a flight, generally. Most end up going unused anyway, so it is a win/win for the airline.

[Horse with no Name]

282. Yes. Vouchers only. This was Southwest

So not sure about the others but a crappy voucher that you might not use is not incentive enough to miss a flight.

[Iggo]

231. I hear that's why I don't need insurance.

I can just go to the ER.

[Sanity Claws]

263. You have got to be kidding me

[niyad]

344. PLEASE tell me that you forgot the sarcasm icon, and that you do not actually support UA's

horrendous action.

[anneboleyn]

380. Yeah, great thinking, honeybadger. Just go to the ER! They will be up on your condition and your

medications, etc! Screw you if you have to wait for five hours and you happen to be ill or elderly!

[womanofthehills]

418. Now the doctor will have to go to the ER - another video face covered with blood

Actually, he sounds to me like he might have a concussion - very confused. United sucks. So much for fly the friendly skies.

‘Just kill me’: Disturbing new video shows removed United passenger with his face covered in blood

https://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/just-kill-me-disturbing-new-video-shows-removed-united-passenger-with-his-face-covered-in-blood/

[still_one]

73. I agree with you on this. Also, asking for volunteers, and forceably removing people doesn't sound

like much of a volunteer effort to me.

What the airlines usually do is offer some perks, either money, free flights, etc. to entice people to volunteer.

The physician obviously didn't volunteer. I suspect this will involve some lawsuits

[Adrahil]

91. Here's my quick analysis...

- The airline overbooks in order to maximize its profits.

- To do so, they risk having too many passengers show up.

- It's odd that they allowed too many people on the plane... normally they take care of overbooking in the terminal.

- Often, airlines up the rewards offered until they get enough volunteers. (As a young man, I often volunteered, as I didn't have anyone waiting for me, and I scored lots of free tickets.)

- Often, they don't, and after a waiting period just pick folks. It sucks.

- Lawsuits will fail. When you buy the ticket, one of the terms and conditions is that you can get bumped.

[still_one]

101. I am not sure if the lawsuit will fail. Besides the physical harm done to the physician, how did

they determine the selection of passengers to be bumped? Was it really fair? Logically, it should should be set up as a stack. LIFO. The last person to buy the ticket should be the first person eligible to be bumbed.

[Adrahil]

169. It won't matter, I'm betting.

Terms and conditions matter, whether or not you read them.

If the terms say a passenger can be bumped, he's out of luck, I think.

[KT2000]

339. but physical injury

cannot be allowed. Someone said his screaming was likely from inflicting pain to the hand to gain compliance - part of the protocol. Being knocked out and bleeding could indicate further issues. If this doctor was a surgeon and damage was done to his hand that could be another issue.
There is being bumped and then there is being injured.
If I was his lawyer, I would pursue discrimination - As an Asian, he has lived through many insults and condescension from white people. He was likely selected because they expected him to be compliant - according to stereotype.

[dalton99a]

416. +1

[regnaD kciN]

440. "Terms and conditions matter"...?

Well, then, you obviously need to be familiar with them. Which, in this case, you're not.

United's "Contract of Carriage" covers IDB (involuntarily denied boarding - "bumping&quot passengers in Rule 25. It ONLY applies before passengers have been boarded (in other words, while waiting at the gate). Once a passenger has been granted boarding, Rule 25 no longer applies. The only grounds for "refusal to transport" from that point on are given in Rule 21, and do NOT cover bumping passengers, either due to oversale or need to accommodate deadheading crew. In fact, the specific circumstances that would allow Rule 21 to be invoked were absent in this case. So it's the airline, not the passenger, that's "out of luck" this time -- as I suspect they will be when his attorney is done with them.

[Adrahil]

445. That's interesting. I hope you're right. NT

[Grins]

132. United does this ALL THE TIME! EVERY flight.

United does this ALL THE TIME! On EVERY flight - they overbook. And they are not the only airline to do this.

They overbooked on a flight I was on Washington, DC to St. Thomas in the USVI last Feb. On the outgoing flight they were begging for people to give up seats and accept a voucher.

Of course, a full outbound = full-inbound, amiright? The begging to accept vouchers began on that end, too, about 90-minutes before departure. Every few minutes that $100 became $200, that became $300...that became $600....

When it got there, about the price of a great hotel and dinner for another night in the islands, and me being time-flexible, I almost took it. But then I found out that you could not get a reservation on another outbound flight - because those flights were also all overbooked!

This was a Saturday; they estimated I'd get out on TUESDAY! Maybe. So not one night, but likely three or more nights and I'd wind up losing abut $1,200.

Nope. And screw you United!

[Adrahil]

171. I'm sure they do. I'm sure every airline does this.

They do it to try and get occupation rates up.

It's a pretty well-established practice. The question really is how much they overbook. If they overbook a few seats, they will be okay the vast majority of the time, but they'll also have empty seats most of the time. If they overbook like crazy, they'll fill the seats, but their customer satisfaction will drop.

[Suburban Warrior]

180. Not exactly correct

There is a contract between you and the airline when you buy a ticket. The small print does say the airline can deny boarding to any passenger. Nowhere does it say a passenger who has already boarded and is seating in their assigned seat minding their own business can be forcibly removed from the plane because the airline's crew scheduling department screwed up.

[Adrahil]

190. We shall see.

No don't get me wrong.... I think what they did to this guy sucks, but I'm betting they have their bases covered here. Passengers are obligated to follow crew member instructions, and if he refused, he's fucked, I think.

[gyroscope]

403. If a crew member told you to jump off a moving plane, would you do it?

I guess you would.

[Adrahil]

407. PLEASE UNDERSTAND!!!!!!

I do NOT condone this. Not in the least. But Federal law says passengers must follow lawful crewmember instructions.

Do not mistake my recognition that passengers are at the mercy of airlines for being happy about it.

[Ms. Toad]

321. It's your third point that I dont' get.

I've NEVER encountered a situation when they boarded more passengers than they could fly. All of the disclaimers I've seen address the right of the airlines to refuse boarding - not to deplane you after boarding. (To your last point - the direct quotes I've seen are restricted to refusing boarding.)

[Adrahil]

411. I have only once....

it was like this one where they had an emergency need to get crew somewhere else. Fortunately in that case, they offered a huge reward.

[Cha]

409. This is beyond odd..

"- It's odd that they allowed too many people on the plane... normally they take care of overbooking in the terminal."

It's gross incompetence.

[Adrahil]

412. They seem to have clarified....

That it was emergent need to transport crew.

But they did a really shitty job. I will avoid them for sure!

[snooper2]

82. oh jesus i. christ on a trampoline you don't think another doctor has his skills?

What is he, some kind of genius brain surgeon? We know they are in high demand

[BannonsLiver]

221. Yay united!

Rah rah!

[uppityperson]

306. It depends. Often doctors work along, especially some specialties.

Allergist or Immunologist - conducts the diagnosis and treatment of allergic conditions.
Anesthesiologist - treats chronic pain syndromes; administers anesthesia and monitors the patient during surgery.

Cardiologist - treats heart disease

Dermatologist -treats skin diseases, including some skin cancers

Gastroenterologist - treats stomach disorders

Hematologist/Oncologist - treats diseases of the blood and blood-forming tissues (oncology including cancer and other tumors)

Internal Medicine Physician - treats diseases and disorders of internal structures of the body.

Nephrologist - treats kidney diseases.

Neurologist - treats diseases and disorders of the nervous system.

Neurosurgeon - conducts surgery of the nervous system.

Obstetrician - treats women during pregnancy and childbirth

Gynecologist - treats diseases of the female reproductive system and genital tract.

Nurse-Midwifery - manages a woman's health care, especially during pregnancy, delivery, and the postpartum period.

Occupational Medicine Physician - diagnoses and treats work-related disease or injury.

Ophthalmologist - treats eye defects, injuries, and diseases.

Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon - surgically treats diseases, injuries, and defects of the hard and soft tissues of the face, mouth, and jaws.

Orthopaedic Surgeon - preserves and restores the function of the musculoskeletal system.

Otolaryngologist (Head and Neck Surgeon) - treats diseases of the ear, nose, and throat,and some diseases of the head and neck, including facial plastic surgery.

Pathologist - diagnoses and treats the study of the changes in body tissues and organs which cause or are caused by disease

Pediatrician - treats infants, toddlers, children and teenagers.

Plastic Surgeon - restores, reconstructs, corrects or improves in the shape and appearance of damaged body structures, especially the face.

Podiatrist - provides medical and surgical treatment of the foot.

Psychiatrist - treats patients with mental and emotional disorders.

Pulmonary Medicine Physician - diagnoses and treats lung disorders.

Radiation Onconlogist - diagnoses and treats disorders with the use of diagnostic imaging, including X-rays, sound waves, radioactive substances, and magnetic fields.

Diagnostic Radiologist - diagnoses and medically treats diseases and disorders of internal structures of the body.

Rheumatologist - treats rheumatic diseases, or conditions characterized by inflammation, soreness and stiffness of muscles, and pain in joints and associated structures

Urologist - diagnoses and treats the male and female urinary tract and the male reproductive system

[TheDebbieDee]

308. EVERYBODY has a job they need to get to...

The doctor is not special! But airlines should not overbook flights, either. Maybe this doctor will hire a lawyer and make a big enough stink for UA that all the air lines will stop this practice!

[CincyDem]

18. While I generally agree with your conclusion, it's unclear this is an example of it.

The way I read the story is that the doc was "volunteered" by the airline. The concept of "refused to voluntarily leave the plane" pretty much implies is wasn't voluntary. They could have picked an "unprivileged class" individual who just wanted to be home to say good night to their kid - doesn't matter the why...they bought a ticket and expect transportation. The message airlines are sending is the ticket ain't "bought" until we take off.

To me the issue is simple - corporate profits. The airlines oversold the flight. They made a bet that some number of folks weren't going to show. They lost the bet. Unfortunately they didn't want to pay the price so they started randomly picking losers out of the crowd.

Airlines have always had the most sophisticated math models for pricing based on ever conceivable variable. Seems to me there's an easy fix that's already in place for consumers. When I have to fly this afternoon, I start calling airlines and they give me a price. IF I have to fly this afternoon, at some point, no matter what the price - I pay it.

Just reverse it. At flight time, the airline has to buy a seat back. IIRC they used to start at $100bucks in credit and then move up the scale...at some point, for some price...a seat suppler (i.e. customer sitting in a seat) will be willing to take the money and wait. They just have to get to that price.

Pay the fair market value for the seat, plug it into the models and they can likely do a better job of estimating the profits that come from overbooking.

Seems like on this flight - they didn't get to a price that SOMEONE would volunteer. Just more dumb chit airlines do.

[exboyfil]

30. Another article states they were up to $800

in vouchers and still no takers.

Should have kept going with the offers.

You do have to wonder about a plane full of people unwilling to take the offer. What is going on in people's lives that make time that sensitive?

On the other hand the public knows the flight vouchers are worthless. Who wants to subject themselves to this mess.

Offer actual cash next time?

[cab67]

52. All kinds of things might be going on.

I've voluntarily accepted the vouchers before. But if I have limited time at my destination to do my job, or if I'm headed to a funeral, I would prefer to stay on schedule.

A friend was once bumped from a flight and had to reschedule a job interview. Fortunately, the employer was willing to reschedule. (She didn't get the job, but that had nothing to do with the flight issue.) Not all employers are so enlightened, or able to absorb whatever cost may be associated with rescheduling flights.

There were a couple of episodes of the TLC (?) show Airline about 10 years ago that showed people in this situation. In one, the first person they "volunteered" was in the army and had to report to his unit in the morning, so they "volunteered" another young man who was on his way home to attend the birth of his child. He got there after the child was born. In another, a father was trying to get to his destination to take his children to Disneyland. I got the sense he didn't get to see his children very often. He was less than enthusiastic about being bumped.

The answer is for airlines to stop the unethical practice of overselling their flights.

[athena]

53. They should have offered cash.

Not "vouchers", which probably come with expiration dates that make them unusable.

[frazzled]

100. I just returned from a flight ...

where the plane was overbooked, and as my mate had been sent for random (additional) security check at the gate to another gate (they do this in Europe), I was sitting there alone when they announced the plane was overbooked. They offered a three-hour delayed rebooking to a plane that would fly to Warsaw and then on to our US destination, a voucher for free travel, plus 600 Euros. I thought the prospect of 1,200 Euro plus two trip vouchers was a pretty good deal, but I was not going to make that decision myself. Plus, we just wanted to get back home. When my husband returned, his eyes widened a bit when I told him, but we agreed we didn't want to fly to another airport in Warsaw and schlep around and get back late. It wasn't even necessary: they apparently got their volunteers very quickly, because the offer was not repeated and we boarded the plane shortly after. This was Austrian Airlines, where efficiency is everywhere evident.

[Warren DeMontague]

441. That's my take. If it was so damn important to get these other 4 people on the plane THEY overbooked

keep sweetening the damn pot until someone bites. United has how many airplanes and how many billions of dollars, I'm sure if they were sufficiently motivated they could have come up with something tempting enough to get 4 people to agree to switch planes.

They didn't. They hit their $800 "voucher" limit and then decided it was cheaper to just strong-arm 4 people off the plane against their will.

[FDRsGhost]

32. I think the word is "voluntold" :)

[CincyDem]

66. Boom - exactamundo. Great word. I'll have to remember that one. thanks. n/t

[athena]

61. A physician is not "the privileged class".

You're confusing doctors with hedge-fund managers and the like.

This is all part of the Republican Party's plan to get Democrats to fight each other instead of focusing on the real problem. Doctors, professors, psychologists, teachers -- those some love to hate -- are not the privileged class. An average physicain makes under $200,000 a year. The top 25 hedge-fund managers earned an average of $250,000 an hour in 2016. You read that correctly. The top 25 hedge fund managers, on average, made more in one hour than an average physician makes in one year. That's the privileged class, and you can be sure you will never meet one of them on a United flight.

Reference: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/hedge-fund-managers-salaries-billions-kenneth-griffin-james-simon

[Tanuki]

95. Also, the doctor in this instance is visibly of Asian origin and speaks

with an accent that indicates he is an immigrant....hardly a "privileged class" in Trump's American dystopia.

[dalton99a]

125. I believe that's how the "computer" chose him

[anneboleyn]

378. United said that minors and "families" are permitted to stay. They chose an Asian man by himself

for a reason! The bullshit defenses of United on this thread frankly make me sick. DU is not a site for corporate shills. United behaved grotesquely in this situation, and it is very likely they tasered this man (the fucking police that is -- who helped an airline "involuntarily de-board" this man from a plane -- why in the hell were the police involved? What total bullshit)

[dalton99a]

394. Yeah, the blind authoritarianism and Big-Business-Is-Always-Right/blame-the-victim attitude is

positively Trumpian

[Duppers]

102. Just because you're a passenger on a plane

Makes you part of the privileged class?!

Wow.

[crim son]

153. Are you effing kidding me?

Yes, he probably thinks he's better than the rest of us, but when you decide it's okay to knock him out and drag him out of a plane bleeding, you become just as deluded as he is.

Wow. Why not bring out the guillotines next?

[KT2000]

431. he probably does not believe

he is better than the rest of us. He likely lives with a strong dedication to his patients - the primary focus of his life. This, especially if he grew up and was educated in an Asian country such as China.

[tymorial]

212. Posts like this remind me why I leave this site

And give up posting. I decided to check this place out again after so many months. I made a few replies and read... the usual spewing of misery and hate remains but this seriously takes the cake. I would say that you should be ashamed of yourself but anyone who would make such a statement is incapable of honest self reflection. You're gross and horrible.

Yeah that was a personal attack. I don't give a shit. Ban me.

[BannonsLiver]

237. Ugly isn't it?

Amazing to see alleged progressives cheering on the brutal nature of this incident.

[grossproffit]

245. Alleged is right.

[grossproffit]

242. I agree with you. That comment does take the cake.

[anneboleyn]

383. I put the person on ignore as every comment lately is troll garbage. It has no place on DU

and most of the time I really enjoy reading the posts here. I'd be very unhappy without DU. We need du during these times and this kind of crap really does almost ruin the site for me too. But it seems to be limited to a few (and I also suspect a few sock puppet accounts with another perpetual troll as the "supporters" always magically post at the same time, using the same language).

I also hate putting people on ignore but this time it involves a perpetual violator, and I am tired of the troll posts. Saying that patients can just "go to the ER" was the last straw for me. We don't need Paul Ryan et al. posting here. Really.

Shit we have Trump to deal with -- who needs this on DU!!

[BannonsLiver]

214. HE was in economy

So doctors are evil oligarchs now?

[matt819]

257. I was going to ignore this comment but just can't

Is it sarcasm?

If so, ignore what follows.

If it isn't, then WTF?

This has nothing to do with privilege. Nothing to do with white or black, professional or unemployed, rich or poor, immigrants, hicks or coastal elites.

This man bought a ticket. He was in his seat. Then some thugs came in, knocked him out, and dragged him off the plane. That's beyond vile. There's probably something in small print that will make a lawsuit all but impossible, but that video was awful. Who here was thinking that this is what the future in America will look like, only the thugs in uniforms will also have guns and badges and access to jails and detention centers. A future that is playing out for immigrants, legal and illegal, and some American citizens as we write this.

And don't think this is new for United. I have my own story of utterly appalling customer service/relations from 30 years ago (and, no, I'm not talking about not being able to get a second can of soda).

[taught_me_patience]

325. Doctors travelling (in economy) are now "privileged class"?

Seriously WTF.

[janterry]

363. This is my thought, too.

Clearly, this should never have happened. The airline staff (that needed the seats) could have gotten a cab (really, United could have hired a limo for less than what they are about to pay in lawsuits and PR).

But I also can hear that MD's arrogance from here..............
if I were told to get off the plane, I would have. I'm just a social worker - not an MD - and so I'm not accustomed to thinking of myself privileged. MD's often use their degree and job as a way to get special treatment - and I find that offensive

[womanofthehills]

428. So you have no problem with kicking off a 69 yr man and his wife - seniors I would say

Get the f**king Asian seniors off the planes - sounds like a Margaret Atwood novel.

[tanyev]

2. "refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily"

They seem to be unclear on what "voluntarily" means. I hope that physician sues.

[FDRsGhost]

6. He's also Asian. This won't bode well for United.

[alanbudda]

3. Bumped

Of the hundred or so other passengers not one offered to be bumped instead?

Why was this individual picked to be bumped specifically and not someone else?

I always look to get bumped...work commitments be damned. Best excuse ever.

[FDRsGhost]

8. lol right?

[Lucky Luciano]

48. I take my work commitments seriously, but that's just me I guess.

I despise those that don't take them seriously and want them out.

[ExciteBike66]

62. Wow, U R mad seriouz...

[snooper2]

85. why you posting at work?

[Lucky Luciano]

97. Have to wait for my code to run.

Big difference between waiting a minute for that and some Schmuck skipping a day of work and slowing us all down. Luckily, most people here are on point.

[snooper2]

112. SURE

LOL...

Most common line by every developer EVER

[Lucky Luciano]

129. LOL - some truth to that!

Quant actually so not a true developer per se.

Bottom line - massive opportunity here, so hard to have someone not careful with their numerical computing mucking everything up for the rest of us - had one such guy working for me and it drove me nuts until I got rid of him. Shame because he was a solid math phd, but better suited to academia.

[cwydro]

134. Nothing wrong with taking a mental health day.

[Lucky Luciano]

148. Totally ok.

Our context here was for someone using a flight bump to get out of work. Missing a flight for work is a big problem if it is avoidable.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

194. Go clean the lunch room counter top. Empty junk from fridge. Do it now.

[whistler162]

413. "empty junk from fridge." in most places that

would take a full day and a hazemat suit!

[democratisphere]

5. A doctor or lawyer is no more important or less important than anyone else

when it comes to overbooking. Get over yourself.

[FDRsGhost]

7. A doctor most certainly is, sorry

Get over myself? Because it could be an instance of life or death? Seriously?

[Orrex]

21. "Most certainly?" Not necessarily.

He may be a a pediatric oncologist desperately needed to save a child's life, or he could be a plastic surgeon desperately needed to enhance a bustline.

None of the first dozen articles I've seen on the story gives his name or his field of practice. Do you have info beyond what these articles have revealed?


Also, although it's certainly possible that his claim is true as given, it's equally possible that he claimed to be a doctor in an attempt to avoid getting bumped.

Details are limited at this point, and it's too soon to condemn the airline at this point.

[FDRsGhost]

35. I've seen a few things on twitter

that said he was staff at a hospital but nothing I'd consider concrete. What a mess. I suppose we'll know more in coming hours.

[pangaia]

33. Give me a break. Life or death.. and the guy has to fly somewhere to be there tomorrow.

Somehow I don't think so.

[FDRsGhost]

40. I do.

It's plausible and someone below said United put him back on the plane after roughing him up and kicking him off? If that's the case......well, United is in deep shite

[Orrex]

54. Airlines generally seem to have a good deal of latitude...

in dealing with hostile passengers, even if the passenger becomes hostile in response to involuntary flight-bumping.

United may suffer a hit to their image if it's shown that this person truly is a doctor who truly needed to see patients in the morning. If he was some rando playing the doctor card in order to avoid a bump, well...

[jberryhill]

106. .

[BannonsLiver]

255. The hit to their image comes every time the skytrax ratings come out

Consistently rated among the worst domestic carriers.

[Orrex]

261. All of that notwithstanding...

Your screen name cracks me up every time I see it.

[OnlinePoker]

63. My neighbour is having open heart surgery sometime on the weekend

He sees the specialist on Thursday. If the specialist was on a flight and got bumped and couldn't make the appointment, then yes this could end up being a life or death situation.

[jberryhill]

110. What if the specialist was booked on the other flight which needed the crew?

[anneboleyn]

384. THEN UNITED SHOULDNT OVERBOOK THE FUCKING PLANE. THAT IS THE ANSWER. FULL STOP.

[jberryhill]

421. The flight was not overbooked

It was full, but it was not overbooked.

[pangaia]

131. Well, you have a point.

[Ilsa]

392. Even blood donations, banked blood, comes into play here.

For certain surgeries, a certain amount of type-specific blood must be available on site. Several days could mean the blood reaches its six week expiration, or might get reappropriated, causing further delays in surgery.

There are also time limits with organ donations. What if he (or another doctor) needed to be in surgery in that destination city because an organ had become available for transplant? Tough shit to the patient?

I would hope that the airline has some exceptions before doing random bootings.

[Kentonio]

29. A doctor and a lawyer are very different things for goodness sake

[PoliticAverse]

276. Yeah you'd want to be careful not to bump the lawyer, they'd be more likely to sue. n/t

[treestar]

451. Lawyers never sue for fees

It's too scary - client can always claim something was wrong. Threaten malpractice and bar action. You'd be surprised how much the word "malpractice" is stated at any meeting of lawyers and how much they are afraid of a suit. Most articles advise not to sue for fees. Also suits are expensive and often not worth the time even if totally justified.

[LakeArenal]

34. Yeah, unless you're the one that HAS to see the doctor...

Why let those ambulances go thru red light? I can't. So screw them.

[BannonsLiver]

251. How long have you been with United?

Are the Bennys good in general?

[treestar]

270. If a lawyer has a trial tomorrow

that will inconvenience some judge, the client and the public generally since the court time might not get used properly.

[jberryhill]

423. I never fly in the day before a court appearance

Shit happens. Depending on airlines to get you there on schedule, when it really matters, is foolish.

[BeyondGeography]

10. The dark-skinned male immigrant somehow drew the short straw

Will wonders never cease.

[dalton99a]

19. But he was randomly selected by computer

Yeah, right

[anneboleyn]

385. United already said they leave families and minors alone. That isn't "random" anymore.

[womanofthehills]

420. He was not alone - his wife was kicked off with him

[Hokie]

12. The airlines used to make it attractive to give up your seat

The airlines used to offer nice incentives like miles, flight vouchers and first class upgrades to entice people to give up their seats when they overbooked. That way they avoided kicking people off who needed to be somewhere. I guess now their attitude is we'll just get the police to remove the bastards for us. I hate airlines and air travel.

[tammywammy]

24. They offered $400 at first and then $800 before randomly choosing passengers. n/t

[rpannier]

43. Free Market which the airlines love using to their advantage

No one would take it
So, obviously they hadn't reached market price yet
They should be required to up it
The feds should fine them some large amount for overbooking the way they do for taking off late
That would end this stupidity once and for all
At the very least, require them to allow the passenger to move up to business or first class

[lapfog_1]

65. Free market says that they should have kept increasing the amount

supply and demand, right?

Resorting to forcibly removing anyone with a valid ticket should be illegal.

The airlines create the situation themselves because they don't want to miss passenger revenue (they overbook because they want the flight to be full even if some passengers miss the flight).

Another way for them to deal with their revenue problem is to simply not refund money to passengers who miss the flight due to circumstances OUTSIDE the airlines control (like a connecting flight was late).

They choose to deal with it this way... I hope the doctor sues them... and if I was on the jury I would award him at least the cost of the airliner he was flying on ($20M or more).

I hate the airlines... they are a monopolistic enterprise and they have been awarded the status of police state enforcers. They no longer treat people as customers.

[kcr]

165. This is the correct answer.

If 800 get didn't a bite, they should have kept going. While the plane sat there, which would also contribute to the market value in their favor as time went on. It was never acceptable to physically violate anyone on that plane. The fact the man was a doctor isn't even relevant. He could be unemployed and he should still sue.

[mikeysnot]

195. The doctor is going to see big bucks on this one.

I'm sure the lawyers are lining up to take this one.

I don't mind flying or being on planes, but airlines, airport security, scanning machines, long lines and 2-3 hours to get through security is why they over book, knowing some will not make it through and miss their flights. That was the first flight I had been on since 2008.

Fuck united.

I had a business trip to vegas last march, two hours in I was still one hour to get through, they let me jump to the front of the line, then I was searched, my hair gone through "all for the appearance of security", I jumped on the plane, and we literally took off.

[FBaggins]

374. Yes and no

The free market would also have some people paying more (or using different airlines) for contracts that didn't include giving the airline the power to kick you off if (in their sole judgement) they need to.

They choose to deal with it this way... I hope the doctor sues them... and if I was on the jury I would award him at least the cost of the airliner he was flying on ($20M or more).

If he has a case, it's against the police... not the airline.

[Ilsa]

393. That's what I think.

I think getting into four digits, over $1,000, would have gotten attention of passengers.

[athena]

67. That's $400 or $800 in vouchers, not cash.

Vouchers that probably come with expiration dates and all kinds of other limitations on how and when they can be used.

If they had offered cash, it would have been more likely that someone would have accepted it. If not, they should have kept going and offered $1000, $1500, etc. Eventually, there would have been a taker.

But they control the rules, so they get to decide whom to toss off the plane. One of the many reasons why flying is now something I will do only if I absolutely have to. The train is so much more civilized.

[Hokie]

79. Yeah vouchers vs cash makes a big difference

I would have bet for $800 cash and free rebooking half of the plane would have volunteered to give up their seat. Vouchers are only good if you can use them within the period they are good.

I recently complained to Thrifty Car Rental about how the were sneaky when I picked up my car and stuck me with extra insurance I didn't want at $28 per day on a prepaid rental. For my trouble they sent me a $50 voucher. When I got it the expiration date was less than 4 months. I will never rent from those AH's again.

[SunSeeker]

81. Exactly. Fuck those puny vouchers. That hardly makes up for the cost of missing a flight.

First, it should be CASH so you can use it to cover another night in a hotel, plus food and transportation, plus a day's lost wages.

[CrispyQ]

156. Why not a first class ticket to the destination of the person's choice?

I hope this video costs United much more than that.

[DFW]

13. Of all the people to remove by force

If a doctor has patients to see, the airline can just pick someone else.

Due to previous unpleasant experiences with United, I have successfully avoided them like the plague for many years now. I almost took them 3 years ago when I was going from New York City to Maine for a ship christening. They canceled the flight without notifying me, and I ended up having to rent a car and drive the whole way--on a Friday afternoon/night and in the rain.

This incident doesn't exactly inspire me to try them again.

[JustAnotherGen]

16. Count me among the well traveled

And beyond a shadow of a doubt - I hate United. I will pay more 'glady' pay more - for a B.A. or Lufthansa or Alitalia flight abroad to Europe.

I will suffer the price, pain, and multiple legs to fly Jet Blue or AA for Central America/South America, Caribbean.

I'm not suprise 'united did it'.

[rpannier]

47. I live in Korea

I try to never fly US carriers
United is a last resort.. and by last, I mean there are no more outrigger canoes or slave galleys (that I can row) available to cross the Pacific

[cab67]

56. I fly united a lot...

...but not out of customer loyalty. It's because I'm required to use a US carrier if I'm using federal research grant funds, and most of the foreign airlines that fly from my connections to the more distant destinations are United code shares.

I'm amused every time I arrive at an airport served by only one airline, and the flight attendant says "We know you have a choice when flying..."

[WinkyDink]

69. I don't fly anymore, but for a couple decades I did. ALWAYS a foreign airline. Loved Lufthansa!

[lunasun]

25. I live where their headquarters and hub are .I never take United despite thier discounted hub prices

Why? Because I have taken them in the distant past . Any other airlines can provide a more reliable flight and better experience.

[lapfog_1]

86. I have a "3 state rule" where if the distance I'm traveling is within

3 contiguous states of where I'm at... I mostly drive.

Cost is less.

Time is sometimes about the same (but I live in California so that's not true some of the time).

No security check points.

No uncomfortable seats. I can pull over and use the bathroom anytime I like.

I can eat what I want (and I usually pack a cooler with decent food).

I can listen to my own music and chat on my hands free phone.

I can pack as much as I want.

If the trip is 400 miles or less, it's usually FASTER to drive than to fly.

(It's an hour to the nearest major airport, then there is long term parking, then the security checkpoint, always crowded at Bay Area airports, then waiting for a flight, then get a rental car at the destination, then drive to where you needed to go... plan 6 to 7 hours to travel to LA or Las Vegas, usually more like 8 when all is said and done, I can drive to northern LA in 4.5 hours, 7 hours to Las Vegas or San Diego, 10 to 12 hours to Portland, 12 hours to Phoenix. Seattle, Denver and ABQ can be a toss up between flying and driving).

I travel to Nevada, southern Cali, Arizona, Portland, and a few trips to New Mexico... and unless I have to travel to Reno or Portland or ABQ in winter weather is generally not an issue.

Not to mention that car travel is relaxing to me and gives me a chance to think... and interact with people I meet (instead of the people jammed in next to you on the plane), I can change my travel plans anytime I like. Mostly I don't have to deal with either bullshit airlines or the TSA.

[Coventina]

116. I'm with you. If I can reach my destination in 24 hours or less, I drive.

It's actually QUICKER, less hassle, I can bring whatever I want.....The benefits are endless!!

[lapfog_1]

137. 13 or 14 hours of driving and it starts to be

one of those things where I start telling myself... Why do I do this to myself?

Anything over 15 hours and I usually don't drive.

But fortunately, most of my trips are in the 12 hour or less variety (I try very hard to time things so that trips through major cities avoid rush hours).

[MurrayDelph]

202. I just read this post to my wife

and she says it sounded like I'd written it.

When I lived in L.A, I frequently travelled to San Jose or Las Vegas, and it was much faster to drive than fly. Now I live I the Pacific Northwest, and it's a minimum three-hour drive just to get to the nearest major airport, but I'd still rather drive the 17 hours to L.A. (in fact, I'm going to next week).

[DFW]

343. I try never to drive.

The Germans drive like homicidal maniacs, and don't care about loss of life or limb, even if it's their own.

But I do take the train whenever I can. I sometimes fly down to Zürich or München, but usually take a train back if there's time. In Paris, they new have security control at the train stations like at the airports, but it's still preferable to flying, and these days, the trains are so fast, I can get from Paris to Düsseldorf in under 4 hours. Only when I run down to Spain or Italy for the day do I fly, as it is almost a 24 hour trip one way by train. On the other hand, if I fly down in the morning, I'm home by 11 PM that evening. It helps that I have high status on a couple of the European air lines. Gold on Air Berlin, to whose group American belongs (free luggage!), and Platinum for Life on Air France-KLM, and Delta belongs to their group.

[lapfog_1]

438. I would love to take a train...

but here in the Western US... not really an option. Trains only really service downtowns and the schedules are often infrequent. And they aren't that fast.

[DFW]

446. In Europe, it's really the only option for most.

European airspace is already crowded, and it is too densely populated to have a major airport every 40 miles. The trains can get messy, too. Someone abuses a toilet, and the other 100 people in the car can have a very uncomfortable trip. The heating goes out in the winter and the engine breaks down in a rural area, I've been through it all. Sometimes the train system in an entire country goes on strike, and you're stuck at the border. But on the whole, it works out amazingly well.

[Justice]

14. This is crazy. Don't they resolve overbooking before boarding? They apologize for overbooking but

not for dragging a guy over.

[dalton99a]

20. They dragged him off the plane, injured him, and put him back on.

[FDRsGhost]

36. Oh he was put back on?

I didn't know that

[dalton99a]

42. Yes.

[FDRsGhost]

45. Wow I smell lawsuit

[womanofthehills]

426. Reports say he ran back on - not was put back on - he is 69 yrs old & was with his wife

He might have a concussion as he appeared very confused.

Tweets from passenger who will be on CNN

Jayse D. Anspach @JayseDavid
@WHAS11 No one volunteered, so @United decided to choose for us. They chose an Asian doctor and his wife.

Jayse D. Anspach @JayseDavid
@WHAS11 The doctor needed to work at the hospital the next day, so he refused to "volunteer." @United decided to use force on doctor.

Jayse D. Anspach @JayseDavid
@WHAS11 A couple air port security men forcefully pulled the doctor out of his chair and to the floor of the aisle.

Jayse D. Anspach‏ @JayseDavid
Replying to @WHAS11
In so doing, the doctor's face was slammed against an arm rest, causing serious bleeding from his mouth.

Jayse D. Anspach‏ @JayseDavid
Replying to @WHAS11
It looked like he was knocked out, because he went limp and quiet and they dragged him out of the plane like a rag doll.

[HoneyBadger]

17. Is he on the no fly list now?

[Orrex]

22. Maybe he was bumped for wearing leggings.

[AgadorSparticus]

23. Wow. United is horrible!!! I hope they get sued. People should not be treated like this.

On southwest, there's always someone who is willing to get bumped for a flight voucher in the future. United is clearly incompetent.

[jehop61]

26. OR, United

Could have flown their employees privately with one of thousands of small planes in Chicago. Or rented a van and drive them the four hours to Louisville from Chicago. Stupid actions that will cost the airline dearly once a lawsuit is filed.

[athena]

70. Exactly.

Why don't they "bump" one of their own employees rather than a customer they claim they aim to serve and please? This is a problem they created, and yet they're forcing a customer to solve it for them.

[3catwoman3]

84. If the flight was overbooked, no non-revs...

...(aka standbys) would be on the plane.

My husband is a retired airline pilot, of relatively low seniority because he only had 15 years with the airlines after a 20 yr Air Force career. The word "standby" is entirely accurate these days. Mos flights are oversold, so if you are trying to travel on standby, that is exactly what you end up doing - standing by.

[jberryhill]

92. "Why don't they "bump" one of their own employees"

If the employees were flight crew for another flight scheduled out of the next airport, then some other flight - possibly with other doctors - would be cancelled or delayed.

[cab67]

113. understood...

...but that, to me, still seems like a problem of the airline's own creation. If they know in advance they'll need to get a crew from one airport to another, they should reserve seats for them and not overbook.

[jberryhill]

120. There was severe weather on Thursday, and schedule problems have a ripple effect

Layered on top of that are FAA crew rest requirements. Bringing the system back to normal functioning after a weather event has left people and equipment scattered all over the place isn't a simple problem. The seats on the flight were likely booked before Thursday.

That doesn't excuse what happened on this aircraft.

[n2doc]

347. I'll bet the lawsuits will be more than sending their employees by private jet n/t

[anneboleyn]

386. EXACTLY. This incident disgusts me. And why the hell were the police involved? Beyond Orwell.

[Sancho]

27. I have to admit that overbooking is a big issue for some airlines....

it's happened to me (Continental that merged with United) and I was really inconvenienced, so I ended up renting a car and driving all night to get where I had to go. I never flew Continental again and I've never been on United since they merged. You can research it, but some airlines are simply worse about overbooking than others.

If the airlines really wanted to, they could offer large incentives to get others to give up their seats, and also book people on competitor airlines. You can bet that if United had offered $2000 or 4 round-trip tickets or something, that someone else would have taken the deal. Likely it will cost United more for the lawyers now.

It's all about their profit formula, so they get away with things like randomly tossing someone. Think of the cost for patients who have appointments - so it's not just about privilege. I would be sympathetic to an MD who had to get to back, especially if it was my doctor.

Frankly, airlines should not be allowed to overbook. Here are some links with information and a couple of them show typical overbooking ratings. United is often one of the worst.

https://www.fastcompany.com/3027718/the-airlines-with-the-worst-track-records-for-bumping-passengers

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/how-delta-masters-the-game-of-overbooking-flights/

http://lifehacker.com/if-your-flight-is-overbooked-dont-volunteer-to-get-bum-1722036179

[athena]

74. That first article is an eye-opener.

Wow. I never accepted a voucher because I suspected it came with expiration dates and other limitations. I had no idea what a truly bad deal it is.

https://www.fastcompany.com/3027718/the-airlines-with-the-worst-track-records-for-bumping-passengers

A common practice among airlines in the U.S. is to offer a voucher for displaced travelers, but once passengers accept it, they enter a new agreement with the airline and waive their rights to further compensation. In the U.S., passengers who are delayed by more than an hour can receive 200% of the value of a one-way flight, capped at $650, while those delayed by more than two hours can receive 400% of the value, with a maximum at $1,300.

“People need to know their alternatives,” Zillmer said. “They need to know what they’re giving up so they don’t surrender their reservation for benefits. They’re going from $1,300 to $100 [in voucher benefits]. It’s a long way from $1,300.” This practice allows airlines to continue their existing practices of overbooking flights, bumping passengers, and compensating them with vouchers that are redeemed only 15% of the time, he added.

ETA: All three articles are informative and helpful. Thanks for posting them!

[geek tragedy]

172. Delta's approach is a pretty sensible way of doing things.

A lot of airlines also have a similar bidding structure (except in reverse) for first class upgrades.

[athena]

285. Delta has horrible customer service

unless they've fixed it in the last few years that I've been avoiding them. I don't actually like what they're doing here. It only helps them overbook more easily so that they can maximize their profits, and anyone who is bumped off has already agreed to be bumped off and can't make a scene or demand a higher compensation later. Also, the writer of the article assumes that the voucher does not carry too many restrictions and is actually usable by the recipient. We need new regulation that says the compensation must be in cash, so that the airlines can't game the system to maximize their profits by overbooking.

[geek tragedy]

289. Delta isn't great, but it's better than United.

FWIW, we always decline to give a price when flying Delta.

We generally prefer smaller airlines within the US (JetBlue or Sun Country) and foreign airlines (Copa, Avianca, Interjet) when flying outside the US.

That said, American did give us a $1 upgrade to first class the other day (for no apparent reason) so I'm favorably disposed towards them at the moment.

I agree that the compensation should be required in cash rather than customer-unfriendly vouchers.

[renate]

284. those are really interesting--thanks! n/t

[Javaman]

28. one would think that a flight would want to keep a doctor on...

not because he has "patients to see in the morning" but by knowing you have a doctor on board, in the event of someone having an issue, the doctor would be a gigantic help.

just another halfwit move by our industrial flying cattle car complex.

[Duppers]

105. Exactly!

TY!

[90-percent]

128. "Is there a Doctor in the house?"

Well, there USED to be until we forcibly dragged him off the plane.

-90%

[LakeArenal]

37. But But.... they apologized.....

[Foamfollower]

38. Let United know how you feel about this bullshit

https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/Contact/customer/default.aspx

[ToxMarz]

39. When I was growing up we used to play musical chairs in grade school

I assume it had some real world significance to be included in the curriculum. If he was already seated, why wouldn't they bump the people that did not already have seats first rather than making someone give up their seat. We're there ticketed passengers that were more important?

[tammywammy]

50. It wasn't even for paying passengers, it was for a flight crew for a flight the next day.

[Hokie]

64. Really? That's just stupid

I was going to ask why they seated people then needed to get them off. Usually in overbooked situations the last poor schmucks are given "seat request" boarding passes instead of seat assignments. If everyone shows up then you know you are screwed. I have been a poor schmuck more than once. Kicking off paid passengers for seating dead heading crew members is just a terrible practice.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

205. If that flight was the next day, there is absolutely no excuse. They could have rented a car.

4.5 hour drive. Fuck, I'm in chicago and wouldn't think of flying to Louisville. Not worth the effort. I could be almost there by the time you go to the airport an hour early, check in, wait, fly, land, baggage, rent a car or take public trans.

I know it's different for dead heading employees. But you gotta figure in time for dragging off ederly Asian Doctors.

I grew up flying on my dad's American Airlines employee privileges. Getting bumped is no fun. But it's worth it to fly for free. I would be livid as a paying passenger.

Our whole family got bumped in LAX at 11pm on the way home from Hawaii during the PATCO strike. Hustled off the plane like a bunch of hobos. Not fun.

[MineralMan]

44. I used to take voluntary bumps all the time.

No more, though. The last time I did it, I was never able to book a flight using my voucher. I tried multiple times, well in advance, and there were "no seats available on that flight" every time.

So, I'm staying on the plane I booked from now on.

[FDRsGhost]

49. Unless you're dragged off XD

"Don't touch me in the minerals!" lol

[lunasun]

247. yes people have to understand they are not handing you the $$ amount negotiated and comes with many

rules, blackout dates etc. Not a great deal for the bumped really

[MineralMan]

269. It used to be a great deal.

I flew for about three years without paying for any flights. This was long ago, when vouchers and payments for being bumped were handled much better. I started by paying for one round trip flight. The trick was to book very early on a flight that would be guaranteed to be full. Then, you showed up for that flight, and took a seat right near the boarding gate desk. At some point, they'd announce that they were looking for volunteers to be bumped with a voucher for $xxx as the compensation. I was always the first one to get to the desk. I'd get my voucher and get re-booked and guaranteed a seat on the next flight. Then, it was just repeat as needed. During those three years, I flew all over the place.

For each flight, I'd do the same as before. Book very early on flights that would be almost certain to be overbooked. Show up early and be the first to reach the gate desk when they were looking for passengers willing to be bumped. Another voucher, another rebooking on the next flight and another free trip later. The gate attendants knew I was working the system, but didn't give a damn about that. The airlines soon caught on, though, and started making it more and more difficult to use those vouchers. I got busy with work about the same time, so it didn't matter, really. But, while it lasted, I flew all over the United States for free on American Airlines. Another advantage was that my luggage always went on the original flight I had booked, so it was waiting there for me when I landed.

Generally, since I flew to popular destinations, I rarely had to wait more than two hours for the next flight. I'd just go eat in one of the airport restaurants while I waited. It all worked great, as long as it worked.

[AgadorSparticus]

424. You weren't working the system. This is what THEY wanted.

You just made it more efficient for them. I don't see anything wrong with that.

And since they got shady by not honoring their word, people stopped believing them. No wonder people didn't take them up on their offer.

[MineralMan]

449. Perhaps not, but it let me visit many places at a time when

money was scarce.

[jpak]

51. If the plane was full - why did they have to remove anyone?

The people bumped should not have been allowed to board.

sheesh

[cab67]

57. Usually, they do.

Doesn't always work, though. The old Airline series I mentioned previously shows a "volunteered" passenger refusing to accept his "volunteer" status and managing to get to the gate with his boarding pass.

[mountain grammy]

55. Only fly United when I have to.. only fly at all when I have to.

The entire flying experience is exhausting. I'm always patted down.

[BeekeeperInVermont]

68. I gave up flying.

I've decided I'm not interested in being groped or nuked. It's sad, because we have a lot of family still in Europe so I don't get to see them, but I'm much too ornery to put up with TSA antics.

[mountain grammy]

72. The price I pay to visit grandkids.

Leaving Wednesday, flying American. Standby, so bumping isn't new to me, but groping? Every time? I dread it.

[SCVDem]

58. So much for their old jingle

Fly the friendly skies of United!

[geek tragedy]

163. the skies are friendly, but the runway is down right hostile nt

[cab67]

59. Can someone explain the rationale behind doing this?

It's a flagrantly unethical practice to oversell flights.

(Other than "they make money that way." There are lots of ways airlines can make money; pissing people off and turning them into former customers seems like an inefficient way of doing it.)

[geek tragedy]

227. Oversells and no-shows/cancels are intended to cancel each other out.

It likely lowers ticket prices in general.

In terms of when there are too many passengers for a flight, there's a smart way (Delta asks people when they check in how much they'd take to get rebooked on another flight) and a dumb way (let people sit down in their assigned seat and then tell them to get off in favor of an airline employee).

[cab67]

274. For what it's worth,

United asks whether you'd be willing to take a different flight as well. (I fly United a lot, not because I like them but because I'm more or less forced to.) Though it doesn't ask how much you'd want for the opportunity.

[crazycatlady]

60. I'll take a voluntary bump if I don't have anywhere to be that day

(Like for a business trip where the meeting is the next day).

I'm also the first person who volunteers to gate-check a carryon when asked. THis is a bag I previously checked until they started charging.

[athena]

273. Really?

Do you find that you're actually able to use the voucher they give you? Perhaps you should read this article:
https://www.fastcompany.com/3027718/the-airlines-with-the-worst-track-records-for-bumping-passengers

A common practice among airlines in the U.S. is to offer a voucher for displaced travelers, but once passengers accept it, they enter a new agreement with the airline and waive their rights to further compensation. In the U.S., passengers who are delayed by more than an hour can receive 200% of the value of a one-way flight, capped at $650, while those delayed by more than two hours can receive 400% of the value, with a maximum at $1,300.

“People need to know their alternatives,” Zillmer said. “They need to know what they’re giving up so they don’t surrender their reservation for benefits. They’re going from $1,300 to $100 [in voucher benefits]. It’s a long way from $1,300.” This practice allows airlines to continue their existing practices of overbooking flights, bumping passengers, and compensating them with vouchers that are redeemed only 15% of the time, he added.

[turbinetree]

71. They have computer system that tells how many seats are on that particular

plane, and if someone where to use there computer at home to book a flight, and "all" of the seats have been taken, then this "airline" should have notified everyone that the plane was over sold, and the "customer" should be given the opportunity to select another flight or a different airline, they have code sharing with other airlines, and when that happens United pays the other airline a portion of the flight costs plus the ticket.

This not good public relations in any format.

I use to work for this airline and when I was traveling they use to have "company" employees dead heading to another city, taking up that seat, to either get home or to get to the next place if they needed to worked.

That is not mentioned in this article

[Sculpin Beauregard]

75. This is fucking disgraceful.

WHY was he singled out to be forced off the plane?? And those of you going on about doctors losing their privilege for a change, fucking SHAME ON YOU. This is abhorrent. I hope the doctor sues. I hope this airline tanks. Fucking disgraceful.

I love and have visited America many times, I have friends in America, but I will be goddamned if I will ever visit your country again - and many of my fellow Canadians feel as I do - until you unfuck yourselves from this government. Jesus Christ almighty. This is beyond what is civilized. It's fucking savagery.

[SunSeeker]

89. Indeed it is. I'm embarrassed for my country.

[LittleGirl]

123. Exactly eom

[Victor_c3]

77. If he's already on the plane, why pull him off?

Shouldn't the guy that doesn't have the seat be out of luck?

I'd put up the same fight too. I'd be pissed and then my "war rage" (I suffer from very severe PTSD) would kick in and I'd be stubborn as hell.

[Hokie]

80. Someone said it was to get another crew to Lousiville for another flight

I find that just amazing.

[OKNancy]

78. Just got finished checking my twitter... this has blown up bigly

I came here to see what was on DU. United is in serious trouble if I'm reading the general reaction via twitter.

-- I booked a flight last week for Portland Ore. and had a choice of United or Southwest. Now glad I picked Southwest.

[HAB911]

83. Did they then give the seat to someone not yet boarded?!?

[OKNancy]

88. he was kicked off for United empolyees

Four United employees "needed to be at their jobs" so they removed paying passengers

[HAB911]

87. WHO got the seat?!

[Victor_c3]

90. An airline employee

I guess they needed to be on that flight to either get home or for their next assignment

[HAB911]

93. United is now on my shitlist

[Duppers]

107. Mine too.

[OKNancy]

94. I think this is the best source to read ( so far)

ETA: the flight was not "overbooked" it was full and they wanted to kick off 4 people to make room for United employees

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2017/04/10/video-shows-man-forcibly-removed-united-flight-chicago-louisville/100274374/

snip....

Passengers were told at the gate that the flight was overbooked and United, offering $400 and a hotel stay, was looking for one volunteer to take another flight to Louisville at 3 p.m. Monday. Passengers were allowed to board the flight, Bridges said, and once the flight was filled those on the plane were told that four people needed to give up their seats to stand-by United employees that needed to be in Louisville on Monday for a flight. Passengers were told that the flight would not take off until the United crew had seats, Bridges said, and the offer was increased to $800, but no one volunteered.

Then, she said, a manager came aboard the plane and said a computer would select four people to be taken off the flight. One couple was selected first and left the airplane, she said, before the man in the video was confronted.

Bridges said the man became "very upset" and said that he was a doctor who needed to see patients at a hospital in the morning. The manager told him that security would be called if he did not leave willingly, Bridges said, and the man said he was calling his lawyer. One security official came and spoke with him, and then another security officer came when he still refused. Then, she said, a third security official came on the plane and threw the passenger against the armrest before dragging him out of the plane.

The man was able to get back on the plane after initially being taken off – his face was bloody and he seemed disoriented, Bridges said, and he ran to the back of the plane. Passengers asked to get off the plane as a medical crew came on to deal with the passenger, she said, and passengers were then told to go back to the gate so that officials could "tidy up" the plane before taking off.

[Lyricalinklines]

140. Are you advocating the treatment a customer received based on practiced business action?

Are you saying the passenger -a customer - was mistreated because he refused to give up his paid for seat to the business who oversold and didn't properly plan for its employees travel for work?

[yardwork]

366. This is horrifying. It is literally Nazi behavior.

The screams of the passengers in those videos is blood-chilling. People excusing this need to think long and hard about what they're defending.

And, from a logistics point of view, it is inexcusable that the airline allowed people to board and then insisted that some passengers deplane. Once they had made that mistake, however, it was the airlines' responsibility to make the incentive to deplane good enough to elicit volunteers.

[malaise]

96. Hopefully he'll be able to retire after the lawsuit

Fuck United Airlines

[HAB911]

99. I hope so

[suffragette]

250. For real. Out of all the choices United had, they chose the worst and most degrading way

to handle this.

And nowadays, with cameras at hand, there are multiple videos showing the evidence so they can't lie their way out of it.

[malaise]

360. We peons are treated worse than cattle

by these fascists

[suffragette]

388. Yup, cash cows. They made him bleed rather than offer more financial incentive for volunteers

Or just hiring a driver and van to transport their employees.


https://m.

[nikibatts]

104. He will either own a hospital or an airline after this.

[jberryhill]

108. They used to let the passengers deal with this on their own

[HAB911]

111. With this PR, UA may never have to overbook again, hopefully

[lillypaddle]

114. Pigs will be pigs nt

[SunSeeker]

115. Apparently he and his wife were bumped so United personnel could board the flight.

The flight was overbooked and United was looking for 4 volunteers to give up their seat, reportedly “for [United] personnel that needed to be at work the next day.” (Bumping for crew issupported by another passenger’s account as well.) There weren’t any volunteers, so United moved on to bump passengers involuntarily.

What’s unusual is that the flight had already boarded. Two of the passengers United was involuntarily bumping were “an Asian doctor and his wife”however the doctor insisted thathe needed to be at the hospital the next day so he refused to get off.

http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/10/doctor-involuntarily-denied-boarding-dragged-off-united-flight-returns-bloodied/

This is really an outrage. If United needed to get 4 of its personnel to Louisville the next day and the United plane was booked, it should have put them on another available airline--that is what anyone else would have done.

This is getting worldwide press, which isn't going to help our already softening tourism business due to Trump.

[Lyricalinklines]

117. WTF? Responders are focusing on the airlines and not the unjust overuse of physical force?

To be sure - the airlines practices oversell and this is known. Customers still put up with it, so the industry keeps doing it. Example of entitled thinking by the airlines that business profits are preferable to treatment of its citizen and the end justifies the means in doing so.

I haven't read to this point a single response disputing the use of physical force resulting in a human being PHYSICALLY knocked out and PHYSICALLY DRUGGED off a plane so a later arriving human could use his seat!?! Why??

Obviously everyone paid for a ticket. Those arriving last need accept first come, first served in this situation. If citizens are going to accept a business is allowed to physically force them off a plane them those citizens also need accept the business determining WHO that citizen is, regardless of status/class. Other industries over selling do the same thing = concerts for instance?

A business industry has lobbied for the right to oversell on the chance someone won't use their paid for ticket. Based on the business might not have enough seats sold? Small business could never get this entitled special protection from the government! This thread illustrates why our country is where we are = citizens allowing big business to be protected against its customers - CITIZENS! And being ok with another citizen being mistreated/mishandled/harmed in the process! He didn't struggle! He was sitting down. There were three security officers.

My view, my point..... physical force in this situation seems to be unwarranted.

[dalton99a]

119. +1

[kcr]

135. There are posts responding to that aspect of it, but yes. That is the part of the story

that merits serious outrage. The answer was for the airline to keep raising the reward until someone accepted and volunteered their seat. Their action was completely unacceptable.

[Lyricalinklines]

145. Reward?

Reward for buying a ticket that the airline might decide they can't honor because they oversold?

Is a business! They are operating on special treatment afforded them because they had the money to gain the legal right to oversell you. They aren't taking any loss because if they do they also get to report it on their business taxes! They lobbied for that too!

[kcr]

158. I'm sorry, forgive me for using the wrong word.

Last edited Mon Apr 10, 2017, 11:41 AM - Edit history (1)

Okay, is compensation better? Rather than forcibly dragging the passenger off the plane. Because THAT really is truly scary part of the story, you see. Yes, overbooking as a practice is completely ridiculous. No argument. But you can see that where they really went wrong was the physical violence. Right? Edit you were the poster I was agreeing with, so clearly you do. Why are you harping on me about using the word reward? I was merely pointing out what they should have done instead of kicking him off.

Look, once a passenger is on board, the only reason they should be removed is if they are a threat. The whole issue of whether or not airlines should overbook isn't even the point. They removed a passenger who wasn't a threat. They could have used any number of excuses, but it doesn't matter. Violence against a non-threatening passenger is the one that matters.

[Lyricalinklines]

181. Absolutely, the physical mistreatment was my point.

The usage of the word 'reward' really wasn't my point. I appreciate your clarification.

I see we're both questioning the use of physical violence as a means to resolve the results of poor business practice.

Thanks for your response.

[brooklynite]

118. What I don't understand about this story...

...is that overbooking usually relies on first come-first served. He arrived early enough to check in and board the plane. Absent an acceptable number of volunteers, it would normally be the latecomers still at the gate who'd be out of luck.

[jberryhill]

121. Flight crew needed at the other end

The plane was full, but United like other airlines is still getting back on track after Thursday's severe weather disruptions.

So if the crew didn't get on this flight, then there was another flight at the other end where none of the passengers were going to go anywhere.

[HoneyBadger]

133. And that flight could have been carrying organs for transplant, many vital doctors, children in need

[jberryhill]

136. .

[Lyricalinklines]

142. seriously?

So are you advocating that because they are a business they get to use physical force to make their end goal occur?

[jberryhill]

147. What a ridiculous statement

Yes, yes, that's exactly what I am "advocating".

Good golly.

[Lyricalinklines]

151. interesting to me

You accept in your world business has the right to sell you a product/service and you will be mistreated if that business decides you don't get what you paid for when you paid for it. AND you are OK with the business shorting themselves in the process and expecting their own customers to pay the price -PHYSICAL HARM - by misusing a federal law to back up bad business? Fear much?

[jberryhill]

164. Again what an absurd statement

Brooklynite stated that overbooked flights are usually seated first-come, first-served and did not understand why United wanted to remove people from the plane.

I answered Brooklynite's question by stating that United wanted to put a flight crew on this plane that was needed at the other end.

How you go from there to some sort of conclusion that I "accept" or "advocate" what was done to this passenger is thoroughly bizarre. What was done to this passenger was completely unacceptable.

You should take a look at what Brooklynite said, and what I answered, and then ask yourself why you have an apparent need to impute opinions to other people which are not at all warranted by what was said.

[Lyricalinklines]

200. I see you clarify in your second response ...

...your opinion on physical mistreatment of a seated passenger.

It's not clear in your response to my original question for clarity.

I see your second response clearly states your opinion. Thank you for clarifying yourself.

[athena]

198. Why couldn't the crew be driven by bus or limousine at United's expense?

There is no excuse for treating customers like they're cattle. It's amazing that anyone is siding with United on this.

[jberryhill]

299. Because of FAA rest requirements

If a pilot has been awake for three hours, you cannot drive that pilot five hours and have the pilot fly an aircraft.

[uppityperson]

327. The crew that needed to be on this flight as passengers. Why couldn't they be driven by car vs plane

to where they needed to go? Being a passenger by plane or by car wouldn't affect them differently.

[jberryhill]

351. Is that really a serious question?

Being a passenger by plane (for one hour) or car (for five hours) has a remarkable difference in TIME THEY HAVE BEEN AWAKE SINCE LAST SLEEPING.

https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=13272

10-hour minimum rest period.The rule sets a 10-hour minimum rest period prior to the flight duty period, a two-hour increase over the old rules. The new rule also mandates that a pilot must have an opportunity for eight hours of uninterrupted sleep within the 10-hour rest period.

Do you know what "uninterrupted sleep" means?

A pilot cannot be driven for more than two hours and then pilot an aircraft (if you work out the math).

In other words, let's start with a pilot who just woke up from eight hours sleep, right now. That pilot can get into a cockpit and fly a plane, but only within a two hour window. If that pilot has been awake for more than two hours, that pilot is not going to be flying an airplane.

So, no, you cannot drive a pilot more than two hours - under the best case scenario - and have that pilot fly a commercial aircraft.

The upshot of that rule is that when weather, illness of other crew, etc. play havoc with the scheduling (as it did with the thousands of flights cancelled last week), the airline ends up with a mad scramble to find crew that just woke up from eight hours and get them to places where they don't have a similar crew.

[uppityperson]

358. Yes, that was a serious question. Thank you for answering. Did this plane land and they get to bed

in under 2 hours? Even without having to deal with the overbooking/find a seat/etc issue, is it possible to get on a plane, fly, get to their resting site in under 2 hours? It seems this was poor planning for getting people here or there in the amount of time they needed.

Yes, that's another serious question. I am trying to understand, not fight. Thank you for explaining in your reply above. I appreciate it.

[jberryhill]

361. You don't seem to understand the answer

No one had to "get to bed in under two hours".

United had a crewless plane in Chicago (or was soon to be crewless). Last Thursday's weather events caused thousands of flight cancellations and when that happens, personnel get scattered out of synch with the schedule all over the place. United's main hub is Chicago, and it is likely that they needed every 10-hour-rested crew on a plane asap to make up for all of the cancellations that left people out of synch with the flight schedule.

The flight from Louisville to Chicago only takes one hour and twenty five minutes.

If they had a fresh pilot in Louisville, then they could get that pilot to Chicago with a half hour to spare.

It's really not a question of "planning" because extreme weather events like the tail end of last week are difficult to plan around, but part of the way they restore the schedule to normal operation is by managing the crew rest schedules against the flight schedules. When extreme weather happens, they have to do that with hundreds of people responsible for thousands of flights.

[dalton99a]

122. That's what I've seen on numerous occasions.

First come first get to stay

[Lyricalinklines]

126. First come, first served

Exactly. If customers accept this business practice then they accept that those being last to check in miss the seat on this flight. Take the 'bonus' offer and next flight. Use bargain skills to get the best offer. NO PHYSICAL TREATMENT ACCEPTED! EVER!

Big Business privilege and special treatment.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

130. Federal law states: (14 C.F.R. 91.11, 121.580, 135.120.)

"No person may assault, threaten, intimidate, or interfere with a crewmember in the performance of the crewmember's duties aboard an aircraft being operated."

Once you are on the plane, you will obey the crew.



If your patients are of such importance that your specific presence is required to avoid serious complications that no other mitigation will suffice:
- It is irresponsible to leave your return travel until the last minute. Flights are cancelled, delayed and diverted and that is a fact. Your position, job or personal/professional responsibilities should not play a role in preferential treatment by an airline.
- The airlines have protocols to follow in selecting those to be denied boarding. Learn the rules, read the contract of carriage and contact the airline first if you don't understand.
- If you don't the rules, pick a different airline or don't fly.

Good ideas for everyone:
- Have a plan.
- Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

Additionally, this flight was delayed 2 hours probably due in part to this person refusing to cooperate with authorities. He, apparently did not cooperate with the crew and then did not obey the police. I do hope this man is prosecuted.

In all likelihood explaining his needs and situation to a gate agent or other airline official (possible at a supervisory level) would have gotten him on another flight. Both United and American have Sunday evening nonstops from ORD to SDF after the flight in question.

Finally, the 300 mile trip is about 5 hours by car. Get a rental and drive. Cooperating will probably get you a refund and/or voucher along with much good will and the cops won't have to drag you down the aisle.

[OKNancy]

146. here are united's rules

:large

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

376. AFAIK the flight wasn't oversold

United needed to get a crew to another location to avoid cancelling another flight.
The protocol for selecting who to bump are likely similar.
Maybe the last to buy the ticket or last to check-in, etc. are first to be bumped.

[Lyricalinklines]

149. You've pointed out the federal law, but it's being misused too my thinking

Business using a law meant for safety and protection is not covering the business practice of overselling.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

173. My understanding is that the flight was not oversold

Not that I like the practice but in 15 years of flying business and often making 2 or more flights per week, I've never been bumped nor encountered a problem this severe.

I read that a United crew needed to board and that passengers were asked to volunteer to make room for that crew. IMHO, bumping 4 passengers in order to accommodate a crew to avoid canceling an entire flight is a reasonable course of action. I have extensive experience flying for business and take airline workers' duties situations seriously. This guy is lucky that he didn't spend the night in jail. Most of O'Hare is in the jurisdiction of Chicago PD but perhaps it is patrolled by the state police. I don't know. The California Ave corrections center doesn't look inviting enough to me to chance it. Who knows maybe these type of antics would land one in a facility in nearby Rosemont or beautiful downtown Schiller Park.

The weather events of the past week have led to numerous travel interruptions, delays and cancellations. Overselling is standard. Your options are: buy a ticket in higher class of service, be assured you have an assigned seat and have a backup plan if your travel dates are critical to you.

Knowledge is power; google is your friend.

[Lyricalinklines]

240. Not being oversold would account for seated passengers...

...yet doesn't account for airline representatives boarding passengers without figuring adequate seating and negotiating seating for their staff needs prior.

Absolutely a business must consider staffing needs or canceling an entire plane and it's passengers to meet delivering its service. I question airline use of physical force in meeting their goals. I question the practice of expecting seated passengers to encounter physical harm so a business meets their staffing. I read flights were cancelled to due weather, thereby necessitating the request for bumping. But it is a request, meaning passengers can choose to decline.

I question the use of federal laws meant for safety in their expression of meeting their staffing goals.

Yes, there are federal rules allowing security to remove a passenger for safety issues. This seems to not be the case here.

Perhaps another airline could be used?

My point is business bottom line shouldn't be ok for misusing a federal law. This could set a troubling precedent of business practices over paying customers. The ends doesn't always justify the means.

Difference of opinion, for sure in this entire thread.

I appreciate your points come from extensive experience. Enjoy your day!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

264. The video I saw of the removal included...

...an individual wearing a navy blue "POLICE" jacket.

Without a doubt there are improvements to be made.
You have a great day as well.

[geek tragedy]

157. " I do hope this man is prosecuted. "

That is totally not an authoritarian reaction to this story.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

174. ?? puzzling response...

Sarcasm or not?

[geek tragedy]

177. in my country, people are not conditioned to be obedient to incompetent

authority figures who take money and then refuse to provide services.

Also, we don't tend to side with thugs when they rough people up.

Then, she said, a manager came aboard the plane and said a computer would select four people to be taken off the flight. One couple was selected first and left the airplane, she said, before the man in the video was confronted.

Bridges said the man became "very upset" and said that he was a doctor who needed to see patients at a hospital in the morning. The manager told him that security would be called if he did not leave willingly, Bridges said, and the man said he was calling his lawyer. One security official came and spoke with him, and then another security officer came when he still refused. Then, she said, a third security official came on the plane and threw the passenger against the armrest before dragging him out of the plane.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/video-shows-man-forcibly-removed-from-united-flight/ar-BBzDGuG?li=BBnb7Kz

Maybe the jackboots in question thought this was a Trump rally.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

256. re: "Maybe the jackboots in question thought this was a Trump rally."

Yes that's obviously the situation.

[geek tragedy]

262. the airline resorted to violence rather than boosting their anemic offer of $800 vouchers

for volunteers.

There is no way to spin this in which United does not come off as dumb, greedy, thuggish, and generally hostile towards its own customers.

Everyone at the airline responsible for this fiasco ought to be fired and blacklisted from customer-facing jobs in the future.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

271. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the airline resorted to the police

Also, an $800 voucher for a (typically) $200 flight isn't a bad deal. YMMV

I have my reasons for not flying United but their customer service isn't one of them.

[geek tragedy]

278. $800 voucher to have to fly United again not such a value.

Especially given that--let's be real--such vouchers would be laden with restrictions and with an expiration date.

Nothing prevented them from offering cash, with a greater face value. If they really needed to get that flight crew there, they should have upped the ante rather than going overtly hostile to the point they were physically evicting passengers who had been duly ticketed, boarded, and seated.

The reason they went to forced evictions is pretty obvious--while they owed every passenger 4x ticket face value for an involuntary bump, only 10% of customers actually file the claim to get that money. So, it was corporate greed that caused them to punish their own passengers for United's general lack of competence.

United is easily the worst of the big three airlines, and that's quite a feat.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

296. I'm not trying to say you're wrong, I just understand the position of the aircraft and gate crew

They are the ones left to deal with poor planning by management. They called the cops.

[geek tragedy]

300. was it their call to limit the offer to $800 vouchers instead of larger, cash offers?

Big question is who allowed those passengers to take their seats knowing there was a seat availability issue.

Had people not been boarded, this would be a very localized grievance about shitty United service. Instead, United has a major PR scandal.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

310. I could be wrong; it is my understanding that cash and checks are not available at the gate

RE: "...who allowed those passengers to take their seats..."? That would be United operations at ORD. Whether they knew or should have known there was/would be a seating conflict between passengers and crew, I don't know. Clearly this could have been handled better.

[geek tragedy]

330. it'll also be interesting to see exactly what force was applied to the passenger

he appears to be unconscious as he's being dragged off the flight--eyes closed, completely limp, bleeding from the head.

this story is going to get worse before it gets better for the airline.

Also, protip for United: threatening passengers with a flight delay when they don't accept substandard voucher compensation probably not a great customer satisfaction move.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

357. Agreed n/t

[athena]

203. Why couldn't United get a rental car to transport its employees then?

I guess, since Citizens United, we regular human beings must put aside our own concerns to make sure the financial concerns of major companies are met. Get a rental car and drive it all night to perform surgery the next morning, just so United doesn't have to spend extra money solving the problem it created.

(Not to mention that it's enormously expensive to rent a car in one city and drop it off in another. But who cares about inconvenience to the customer when the needs of the corporation are so much more important?)

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

291. My understanding is that weather conditions...

...of the last half of last week were the source of cascading delays, cancellations and service issues. I don't work for the airlines, I have a perspective. I've had my share of bad flights, problems and interruptions.

Since United was willing to give the 4 folks vouchers for $800 each, I don't think money was the issue here. I priced a 1 day rental of a full size car from Avis from Chicago to Louisville, it was $125 plus tax.

It's a balance. Four people can't fly vs cancel a whole flight since it won't have a crew. Needs of the many/needs of the few.

[Kentonio]

253. You hope the doctor who just got the shit kicked out of him is prosecuted?

Wow..

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

303. It's rather clear to me that, when I travel...

...I follow the directions of the crew. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the cops removed him from the plane.

Hyperbole?

[Kentonio]

345. Yes, the police removed him from the plane

After dragging him from his seat, causing him to be knocked unconscious and left bleeding and confused.

Over an airplane seat.

The police are supposed to be servants not masters. Questioning their decision making is not supposed to lead to you being left bloody and hurt, unless you're posing a risk to other peoples immediate safety, and even then only under the most extreme circumstances.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

356. It wouldn't be the first time that...

...the police were 'over zealous'.

[PoliticAverse]

297. And "interfere" seems to be interpreted rather loosely these days. n/t

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

314. Perhaps this is an under reviewed area of law

It has plenty of company.

[eShirl]

442. "Finally, the 300 mile trip is about 5 hours by car. Get a rental and drive."

Tell this to United.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

443. I suggest that the public tell this to United

While I think the guy was foolish for not moving when confronted by police, I don't like that the airline did this for their convenience.

It should be in the passenger's Bill of Rights that, once boarded, you won't be removed against your will unless the flight is cancelled or delayed more than 2 hours or as needed for maintenance.

[question everything]

138. Hope someone sue United for all the compensation that they offer their CEO, and more

I would love to be on a jury that award this and other passengers "picked by computer" millions..

[dagnuguy]

139. Some of you need to read the terms and agreements

when you book a flight. Airlines can offer incentives for bumping you off a flight or they can select you to be bumped. If you are then asked to leave the plane and refuse to do so, you are trespassing.

The captain/crew can then ask the police to have you removed. It sucks, and I wouldn't be happy about it if it happened to me. I also would not screech and flail about when asked to leave. I guarantee he was asked to leave by the crew and I would put good money that the officers asked him to leave before making him leave.

His job as a doctor does not matter and is only included by the media to stir up feelings. Ignore the glittery, shiny objects and focus.

[OKNancy]

141. he was already on the flight

:large

[geek tragedy]

161. there is a reason why competent airlines don't board passengers until they have all

overbooking issues addressed.

At best, this shows United to be an incompetent, customer-hostile shit-show of an airline.

[BannonsLiver]

226. Where does it say you will be forcibly dragged off

By thugs if you don't comply? I'll be waiting.

[randome]

287. The same place it says if you are behaving erratically or threatening other passengers...

...you will be forcibly dragged out. No one has a right to force an airline to fly him/here somewhere. It's up to the airline to determine what passengers they take.

In this case, the passenger was screeching and flailing about (not at all behaving the way I would think a doctor or other professional might behave) and refused police orders to leave. How would you force a passenger off a plane without using force?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[BannonsLiver]

288. Cool story, but I'm still waiting

You really hate that guy don't you. Is it an Asian thing?

[randome]

298. Nope. As has already been pointed out, the man was not beaten.

He was forcibly dragged out of the plane. How would you remove a passenger who refused to leave? By dragging him out of the plane. His shrieking and flailing when he was being removed makes me think he was also pretending to be unconscious since there is no indication that he was hit.

It was a stupid situation for all involved and it's a P.R. nightmare for United.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[BannonsLiver]

309. What's the protocol/etiquette for being forcibly dragged out of your seat

Is one supposed to stay quiet or is selective grunting ok? Should one make eye contact with fellow passengers?

[randome]

318. As was already pointed out by some, he threw a tantrum.

That, too, does not sound like the behavior of a doctor. The protocol is to do what the police tell you to do, especially when in a crowded, confining situation.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[BannonsLiver]

329. But what's the protocol?

Also, his lip was bleeding. Do you think he bit into one of those fake blood capsules they use in pro wrestling?

[randome]

454. I would assume the police are authorized to use force...

...when confronted with a belligerent passenger who refuses to comply.

Did he have a RIGHT to be belligerent? That's up to a jury or a settlement to decide.

[uppityperson]

452. Was that "tantrum" before the concussion? Or the knocked out teeth? Or the broken nose?

[randome]

453. I realize that listing all his injuries lends a certain evil intent to your position.

But watching the video, it's obvious he started screeching and flailing about the moment the officers laid hands on him. After warning him they would use force if he didn't comply.

His injuries occurred when he lost his death grip on his seat (how it appears to me, anyways), resulting in the officers losing balance and the momentum causing Dao to hit his head on the opposing row of seats.

Do I KNOW for certain that everything occurred the way I described? No. Neither does anyone else, but that's how things look to me.

[bora13]

372. there is no protocol for

fascism.

just do it.

[OKNancy]

143. United didn't follow their own regulations

:large

[DesertRat]

144. Where does it say that he was knocked unconscious?

[George II]

152. I find this story highly suspicious. Airlines don't allow people onto the aircraft in advance of...

....asking for volunteers, that's done while they're still in the waiting area. How could they have allowed more people on the plane than seats since the boarding passes are computerized?

Something isn't right about this story.

[geek tragedy]

162. that's how they're supposed to do things. United decided to do things a little different this time,

and it predictably bit them in the ass.

[George II]

176. I still find this suspicious. The flight was due to leave at 5:41 PM, there was another one....

...leaving at 8:03 PM. When someone is bumped from a flight the airline does what it can to get that person on the next flight.

Plus, Chicago to Louisville is only about 250 miles, if it was really urgent to get back he could have rented a car and driven to Louisville.

I think perhaps he was overly arrogant and abusive, and THAT is why he was removed.

[geek tragedy]

178. United could have rented a van for its employees and driven them there.

United wasn't offering to let bumped passengers get on the next flight, which was also overbooked. They were offering to put them up in an airport hotel and fly them out the next day.

It makes no sense to attribute his removal to being arrogant and abusive. How would those personality traits come into play unless he was being told to get off the flight?

Also, roughing someone up because of their personality is generally frowned upon.

It's very difficult to spin this story in such a way that United doesn't look like a shit show.

[jberryhill]

301. Not and comply with rest requirements

No, they could not have done that.

[geek tragedy]

304. Pretty sure it's a good idea for doctors to get rest before treating patients too.

The one positive is that United has produced a new Orwellian term "re-accommodate."

"Those protestors at the Trump rally were re-accommodated by bikers wearing MAGA hats."

[jberryhill]

305. What happened was utterly stupid

Was there a doctor aboard the flight that would be cancelled if the crew did not arrive? Or does that entire planeload of people not figure into the calculation?

[geek tragedy]

315. that entire planeload of people wasn't worth more than $3200 (in travel vouchers)

to United.

Had they upped the offer to, say, $1500 cash per person, they probably would have had a few takers.

This was a problem entirely of their own making.

[jberryhill]

362. There are no such requirements for doctors

Which also has nothing to do with your suggestion of driving them from Louisville to Chicago, since that would not have been possible under FAA regulations.

[uppityperson]

312. ++++++++++

Thank you for stating it more politely than I would have

[geek tragedy]

154. Here's an idea, seat people AFTER overbooking issues have been resolved.

United once again doing its best to make Delta and American look good.

[NCjack]

155. These are the people that I like being given preference on flights that I'm on

so that they can help others, and if necessary, even help me: physicians, nurses, Seals and Rangers, and rescue firemen.

[DarleenMB]

160. why did he act like a 2year old

having a temper tantrum? Why didn't he stand up, step out of the plane and ask to speak to someone in authority ... then explain why he needed to be in Louisville? why did he have to be dragged screaming from the plane? I'd be checking his credentials first and if he were my doctor? I'd find a new one. Just my opinion.

[haele]

210. If he stepped out of the plane, he already lost his seat - and most likely any right to redress.

It also seems he was not an English native speaker, and that along with the most recent hostility shown to people who are obviously "Not American Enough" most likely contributed to his confusion and anger on why he was apparently being singled out to be kicked off a plane that he had already been seated on with his spouse.

As for being in Louisville, there are all sorts of reasons Doctors or other medical staff travel...could be a medical conference, could be volunteer work, could be a consultation (specialists often travel when asked to come in and consult), could be a short teaching/training requirement for professional credentialing - or could be just taking time off to see relatives or friends for a special visit - like a funeral or a birth, or some other once in a lifetime event. He could have already been delayed getting a flight out due to weather.

The other thing to understand is that if one is aware of the crap Airlines have been pulling lately with over-booking and the additional expense and potential waste of days one experiences if one voluntarily agrees to be bumped, well - the Federal Government recommends that travelers do not voluntarily give up their seats, because it may take up to a week to get back across country on some airlines - like United or Continental, and cost both the traveler and the government thousands in lodging and re-booking fees, no matter how much "Voucher" they're given.
Two weeks ago, my supervisor ended up taking a weather delay over-booking on a United return flight from DC two weeks ago - on a first-thing Friday Morning flight - thinking he'd be able catch a flight out by Sunday, as had happened three years prior in a similar situation.
But - he ended up remaining in DC working his ass off to eventually find a flight on a totally different carrier until a 9:20pm Monday night flight out of Dulles - which still didn't get back in to the West coast until Tuesday Morning because of two connection stops including a layover in Denver along the way. (One of our co-workers picked him up, and boy was he spitting nails once he got back...)
The entire cost to him out of pocket close to $2K over the $1300 voucher - because he couldn't get a guaranteed seat on United flight out until the next Thursday, as well as three whole days wasted hanging around airports in DC and two days of actual work lost because of United Airlines and their booking - and he swore he'd never, ever do anything like that again.

I can totally understand being seriously upset as well as insulted if you're told to get off the plane for apparently no reason other than random chance.
And while I might be able to remain calm and zen while they get two cops to drag me out of the airline seat I paid for and had been allowed to board for, I can understand someone getting combative, especially if they feel they also have people depending on them that expect them ready to work the next day. It's not a tantrum if the situation is warranted.

Haele

[mainer]

222. Tazed? It explains suddden screams and going limp

Also later disorientation.

[BannonsLiver]

244. My aren't you a compassionate one

[uppityperson]

313. He did explain before the thugs came on to drag him off.

When they got physical, he started yelling. Why did they assault a paying passenger for refusing to give up his seat and then allow him back on, bloodied, later?

[maddiemom]

167. Flights were routinely overbooked in the mid-Seventies (forget why).

Passengers were routinely asked for volunteers to take the next available flight, and a REFUND of their ticket price. There were always more than enough volunteers. My then husband and I were once flying from Pittsburgh to Lexington, KY. and volunteered to give up our seats. Since the next available flight to the area was (ironically) to Louisville, we were also offered a free taxi back to Bluegrass, were we'd left our car. We were young, and in no hurry at the time, so it was a bit of an adventure, and no one who needed to keep to a schedule was inconvenienced. Surely something similar must be available for overbooked flights these days (?)

[maddiemom]

185. Guess I should have read further to get my answer.

I've flown very rarely in the past two decades, so little wonder I never had this problem. Still, I haven't heard of it from those (including my daughter) who have.

[Bayard]

168. What if

What if this man was a transplant doctor, where the donor (or cadaver) are lined up and waiting? Time is of the essence. It would be helpful to know what kind of doctor this was, but doesn't really matter. This is so wrong to do to ANYone.

[jberryhill]

170. What if there was a transplant doctor on the other plane that needed the crew?

One can play that game all day long.

[geek tragedy]

175. Which is why (1) competent airlines resolve overbooking before boarding; (2) competent airlines

would have upped their bid from $800 in order to induce takers; (3) computer randomized removal is a violation of virtually any airline's policy--different fare classes involve seat selection ahead of time, etc.

It will be very difficult for United to polish this turd.

[randome]

204. You could even pose the question "What if he wasn't a doctor?"

It doesn't excuse what happened, of course, it's just an interesting question to ponder.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[athena]

208. So let's assume, with zero evidence, that the guy is lying.

No, it is not an interesting question to ponder. It's not right to accuse people of lying when you have no evidence to suggest that they have done so.

[randome]

233. 'Ponder', I said. There is so much wrong with this thread.

1. United was right to remove someone if the flight was, indeed, overbooked for whatever reason and if truly random criteria was used.
2. The passenger was not right to refuse.
3. The officer was right to forcibly remove him.
4. The officer was not right to use such excessive force.
5. None of the officers' actions are necessarily a reflection on United. Perhaps the blame belongs to that individual officer only.
6. The passenger said at first that he had to see people. He only claimed to be a doctor when it was clear he wasn't going to get to stay, which makes him suspect, imo.
7. The entire event is fucked up every which way you look at it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[athena]

248. You seem very biased in favor of United.

1. It is United's fault that the flight was overbooked. According to your criteria, United can overbook every flight every time in order to make sure every flight is 100% occupied and thereby maximize its profit. Its customers will suffer as a consequence, but who cares about that, eh?
2. No, passengers do not and must not have any rights whatsoever. After all, this is the Corporate States of America.
3. Let us immediately call in the authorities and treat people like criminals by default, because humans solving humans among themselves in a respectful and dignified manner is unheard of!
4. A little excessive force would have been OK, then, just not "such" excessive force?
5. Let's call the police at every opportunity, and if they cause others harm, it's only their fault, not ours.
6. The passenger cannot possibly have wanted to keep his privacy. Maybe he's a modest guy and did not want to immediately point out how important it is that he needs to see patients. Corporations are innocent until proven guilty; human beings are guilty until proven innocent.
7. It sound like you see it as fucked up only on the side of the passenger who did not obey United's commands. After all, if he had, we wouldn't be hearing about this, and United's bottom line would not have been harmed by the negative publicity.

I just remembered that there is an Ignore button! That's where I put people who display an atrocious lack of empathy.

[randome]

258. There was no 'immediate' about calling in the police.

They apparently tried to entice passengers off the flight first.

Yes, passengers have rights but not, as has been pointed out, the right to refuse a lawful order. No one has the 'right' to force United Airlines to fly them somewhere.

I don't see how the situation would have been resolved without the police. Regardless of whether or not United should have handled its bookings better, what do you think should have been done to resolve the issue?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[Kentonio]

260. No United was not 'right' to remove people from a flight

The passengers didn't do a damn thing wrong, United screwed up and suddenly decided that flying their own staff was more important than anything the passengers might need to do at the other end.

Corporation screws over one of their customers, police unnecessarily beat an innocent man on their behalf. That's the whole story right there.

[randome]

277. We don't know much beyond the videos, which are pretty damning, no doubt about it.

Maybe if United didn't have those staff in the right place at the right time, a dozen more flights would have been delayed? I'm just throwing that out there, neither of us knows why United thought it so important to bump paying passengers.

Without that key information, I can't say if this is a typical 'corporation sticks it to the common man' theme or something else.

But we're in agreement that excessive force was used. On the other hand, IF someone needed to be taken off the flight, and refused to do so, I don't know how that could have been accomplished without police enforcing the order.

The same thing would apply if someone was being rude and ordered off the plane and refused to go.

I'm just wondering if we may be missing parts of this story. Maybe, maybe not.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[Kentonio]

340. Setting aside for a moment the rights and wrongs of this particular situation..

I'd expect the police in that situation to simply say to the guy that the longer he refuses to comply the more severe the legal charges they will bring. For me the barrier for using force for a non-dangerous suspect should be extremely high. I think America has become far too accepting of the police using violence in situations where de-escalation and conversation could achieve a much better result. Other countries manage to do this just fine, its purely a training issue.

[randome]

349. Agree, there were probably other avenues to use before resorting to force.

We also don't know if any of those other avenues were tried. I'm really not trying to be on the side of the police, I'm simply saying we don't know what they may have tried before pulling the guy out and forcibly evicting him.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[dalton99a]

191. Forget about the guy being a physician. What if it was you or your family member?

[Alea]

186. It sucks to get bumped but refusing to get off the plane is never going to work

It's like refusing to show the police your drivers license when they pull you over. He played the "I'm special" card and it didn't work. I agree that Doctors should be given some sort of extra consideration, but with that said he better never take a sick day or his patients will be in dire straights if he's that important.

Also some passengers may have been bumped from earlier flights and the airline is trying to catch up giving them priority. Bottom line is that no one has the right to refuse to depart the plane once they are told to do so. If you are being dragged down the isle then you've played a stupid game and are winning a stupid prize.

[geek tragedy]

241. his 'stupid prize' is going to involve a lawsuit against the airline

resulting a very nice settlement.

Question the airline doesn't want to answer under oath: "Why did you not increase the amount offered for people to volunteer instead of forcibly removing passengers?"

[CajunBlazer]

187. Before we jump on the passenger, let's remember why airlines overbook

They overbook for one reason and one reason only - money. They want to fly with the maximum number of passengers so they can make the maximum amount of money from each flight. They know that on every flight some people will not show up, will take a later flight or will cancel. So they overbook and all too often they get caught and too many people show up.

In such cases, they offer incentives such as money, flights etc. Usually they get enough volunteers to take a later flight without too much incentive offered. If they don't get the volunteers they need they up the incentive until they do.

I bet that on this flight they reached the maximum allowed incentives that United authorizes their representatives to pay (they don't want to lose too much money) so their people had to resort to throwing people off of the plane.

This was United's fault plain and simple. The passenger was well within his rights to refuse; United breached a contract with him. I guarantee that if they would have offered enough money, someone would have volunteered, but again corporate decided that they wouldn't pay over a certain amount for their mistake of over booking. Well, they are going to pay now, through the nose. I hope he sues the shit out of them.

[dalton99a]

192. Bingo.

[Alea]

196. he may be able to sue them but he has no "right" to refuse

There is no right to refuse to get off the plane

[geek tragedy]

201. He had a right to not be beaten up.

In any event, United doesn't want this one going to trial. They failed to follow their own policies, let alone basic common business sense.

[Alea]

232. I watched the video and he wasn't beaten up

Sensationalize it if you want. He may sue or settle. That's his right to try. The video shows a man having a tantrum and 3 security officials dragging him from his seat and down the isle. No punches, slams, or headlocks, or "beating". Tantrums don't give you extra rights to stay in your seat either.

There's no "rights" to not get off the plane and he certainly wasn't beaten up lol. Could it have been handled better? Yes, I agree, but once they tell you to leave the plane, you're going one way or the other and they have the right to use whatever force is necessary to get you off the plane, tantrums or not.

[geek tragedy]

239. they chose to drag his ass off the flight instead of increasing the compensation

they were offering customers to take a later flight.

There's a reason airlines never, ever, ever load passengers on the plane before booking issues are resolved.

[randome]

265. Eh. Increasing the compensation means more would wait next time for a better deal.

I would guess there need to be limits to that sort of thing. Word would get around that if you wait long enough, United will bribe you with a kajillion flyer miles.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[geek tragedy]

275. Delta has a much smarter way of doing things. They ask people at check in how much they'd take to be

bumped--a bidding process similar to when people bid for first class upgrades.

Even without that kind of process, here there was a flight full of people. Everyone has their price, and all it takes is a few people to find their price as been met.

If your price is $1200 and 4 others' price is $1000, you get to keep your seat and they get the money.

Also, what are the odds they offered lame-ass vouchers instead of actual cash?

Of course, if they hadn't been monumentally incompetent enough to board the plane before trying to bump people, this wouldn't have been any kind of news story.

[randome]

283. I need to know why the staff were in such a hurry. Maybe another crew suddenly took sick?

Without that key piece of information, it's hard to know who to blame for the setup.

Regardless, if police order a passenger off the plane, and the passenger refuses, they are right to force him off, whether it was because he thought he had a right to his ticket or if he was acting unruly and/or threatening.

There is no way to force a passenger off a plane without the use of...force.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[geek tragedy]

286. My comment has been that United was both stupid and evil, but mostly stupid, in this.

they should have offered more money rather than resorting to force.

Especially with passengers having already duly jumped through all of the hoops--check in, seat assignment, security, boarding, butts in seats.

Personally, I probably wouldn't have forced them to physically accost me, but I would have told every person I know to never, ever fly United again. Their behavior was extremely anti-customer even without the use of physical force.

[randome]

290. They have a P.R. nightmare on their hands now.

That's not enough to keep things like this happening. I don't believe in free market dictates ruling over us all but it's hard for me to see this as anything but a really, really stupid situation that developed, and no one was going to be a 'winner' any way you look at it.

When police order someone off a flight and they refuse to go, they are justified in using force to remove said person. There are all sorts of criteria that led to this situation and I would be curious to learn them all.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[geek tragedy]

293. As a lawyer, I can recognize that law is the law and airplanes are no place to disregard the law

As a human being, all I can say is eff that ess.

Doesn't appear that anyone at United had a "customer first" mentality, or really any interest in customer satisfaction/experience, informing their decision-making.

[CajunBlazer]

400. It's not a law that allows this

It is fine print on your ticket.

That aside, if I were a lawyer (and I am not), I would love to get this case in front of a jury. United will settle for a lot of money because a jury trial should scare the shit out of them since they only overbook to make more money and it is the passengers that have to pay for their greed.

Besides, since the passenger was removed to make room for a United employee, I would hate their chances in court.

[LanternWaste]

294. That explains your very small text...

That explains your very small text...

[randome]

311. What's the last line you can read clearly?

Then that's the size I'll use from now on.


[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[CajunBlazer]

398. Let me ask you this ...

..why are you taking the side of a large corporation over the rights of one of their passengers.

Do you work for United? If not, what's the story?

[randome]

408. These things are rarely as simple as they seem.

No, I am not a United Airlines employee. I question why the 'doctor' squealed like a two-year-old. I question why UA didn't have an alternative to bumping passengers off. I question how anyone would expect a passenger to be removed by force without someone using...force.

[CajunBlazer]

414. I have only one question?

Other than the fine print that no one ever reads on their ticket, what gives a corporation which overbooks to make the maximum amount of money on every flight get the right to deprive a passenger of his/her seat because because they screwed up and sold too many tickets for that flight. Now if they want to offer enough money for someone to give up their seat voluntarily to deal with THEIR error, I am fine with that. No, what they did instead was refuse to let THEIR error cost them too much money and then happened to pick the wrong passenger to fuck with.

Technically they might have had the right to have him thrown off of the plane, but I bet that their lawyers who wrote up that fine print on the ticket will be scared shitless to bring this case before a jury because the jury members never read the fine print either.

United will settle out of court, if they are lucky, for a very large never to be publicized amount of money The rest of the flying public doesn't read the fine print on their tickets either and United won't get to pick the jurisdiction were the case will be filed. The passenger will be very well compensated for his ordeal.

However, United will lose many times that amount in lost business and terrible PR. Regardless of fine print, no one likes a company that treats customers that way. Oh and by the way, wait until becomes universally known that United removed the passenger to give a United employee his seat. Oh, I bet that will leave a mark.

[randome]

447. The flight was not overbooked.

They bumped passengers because they had an immediate need for 4 staff members to get to their destination.

And how much money is enough? $10,000? $100,000? They had already reached their limit on offers and decided -apparently- they had no choice but to invoke the fine print clause.

There may be a lawsuit. But maybe not. A passenger refused to leave a plane when ordered to by a police officer. That won't look good, either.

[uppityperson]

319. How did his face get all bloody?

[randome]

323. It looks like he hit the opposite row of seats once they pulled him into the aisle.

Just a guess, of course, but I agree with others that the videos do not show this man being 'beaten'. It shows him being forcibly removed.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[uppityperson]

326. I guess it depends on what the definition of "is" is. Or "beaten".

[CajunBlazer]

397. Bullshit

When the passage bought that ticket he entered into an agreement with United for that seat on that flight. Now the the fine pint on that ticket may say they have a right to throw you off, but I love his chances in front of a jury.

The fact that United cleared that seat to give it to one of their employees is not going to help them.

United will settle for a huge amount and announce they announce that they have changed their overbooking procedures - hide and watch.

[athena]

417. So far, they're digging in their heels.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/10/united-ceo-passenger-disruptive-belligerent.html

United CEO Oscar Munoz doubled down in a letter to employees on Monday evening, claiming that employees "followed established procedures" when removing a passenger from a plane because it was overbooked, and calling the passenger "disruptive and belligerent."

[CajunBlazer]

396. Yea, but it isn't a law that requires a passanger to disimbark on notification

The right to remove you from the flight if it's are overbook is in the small print on your ticket that no one ever reads. Guess whose lawyers wrote the small print.

And guess whose lawyers will dread to taking this case in front of a jury. That's right United's lawyers. One way or another the passenger will own their ass. They better settle quickly. I'm thinking a quarter million plus medical care and loss of income might do it, but I would press for cool million.

Heaven only knows how much the bad publicity is going to cost United, but it will be whole lot more than a million in lost business.

The fact that I am now hearing that they cleared the seat so that a United employee could have it is going to add to their troubles.

[geek tragedy]

199. involuntary bumping with a 2+ hour delay means paying 4 times the face value of a one-way ticket.

Capped at around $1300.

So, they don't save any money by offering only $800 and not getting any takers.

Not to mention a PR black eye.

This was evil and stupid, but mostly stupid.

[athena]

216. They're not offering cash.

The vouchers probably have major restrictions on how and when they may be used. According to this article:

https://www.fastcompany.com/3027718/the-airlines-with-the-worst-track-records-for-bumping-passengers

posted by another DUer above, vouchers are redeemed only 15% of the time. And only 10% of passengers claim compensation for being involuntarily bumped off their flight. So what United did makes financial sense. Indeed, their bottom line is really all they care about, so this is not surprising. They probably just didn't expect that a person with an Asian name would refuse to get off the plane and make a scene.

[geek tragedy]

224. That figure about failure to claim compensation is shocking but maybe

makes sense in that they typically target infrequent flyers for involuntary bumps.

In any event, they really screwed themselves with this misadventure.

[CajunBlazer]

401. I figure they saved a little money and lost millions in the process

And that doesn't count what they are going to have to pay the guy to keep the case from going in front of a jury.

[geek tragedy]

404. It's mentality.

Like GM and the ignition switch.

[CajunBlazer]

415. Yep, and a mentality of greed sometimes costs companies a ton of money

A mentality of customer service may cost a bit more in individual cases, but it makes a lot of money for a company in the long haul. You reap what you sow.

[HoneyBadger]

371. Time to read the Contract of Carriage for the flight

[Kablooie]

188. Trump new Amerika at its best

[dalton99a]

193. The "computer" selected people who didn't look like well-dressed white lawyers

[HoneyBadger]

391. He was Chinese

“He was kind of saying that he was being singled out because he’s a Chinese man” when speaking to the manager, who was African-American, Bridges said. “You should know what this is like,” the man said, according to Bridges. The AP was unable to confirm the passenger’s identity.

[mwooldri]

189. My, times have changed.

1998... Flight I took from CLT to LGW... British Airways Flight 9007 had developed a mechanical fault: the emergency evacuation slide had activated somehow. US Airways didn't have a spare. All passengers were boarded, but not overbooked (spare seats). Plane could still fly, but the plane had to lose some passengers as that door couldn't be used as an emergency exit. Volunteers were offered reroute via NYC, overnight stay in NYC and a good amount of cash. In this case, there were too many volunteers.

I wrote to BA after the flight to complain... For my 4 hour delay, I was given £300 in vouchers for a future BA flight. Ahh the good old days eh?

Maybe next time United need to invent a mechanical fault?

[ananda]

206. Prediction: Lawsuit!

And I hope United has to pay a very hefty settlement!

[Bradical79]

211. Airlines intentionally overbook for profit

I don't think you get to do that, assault a passenger, then drag his bloodied body off the plane without serious consequences. Also love the so called Democrats here defending that. I don't care if this post gets hidden. You're rotten human beings and a big part of this country's current problems. I will never respect you. Thanks for making this planet a worse place to live, and being an embarassment to the Democratic party and humanity in general.

[athena]

225. I agree with you.

It's really sickening to see how quick so many Americans are to defend large corporations against the interests of individual human beings. If you're the least bit sensitive (i.e., if you feel empathy, sympathy, love, pity, and other feelings that used to define what it means to be human), the U.S. has become a very difficult place to live in the last few years.

[chia]

220. I hope the passenger sues United

There's absolutely no excuse for what they did here, just so they could fit their employees on the plane. Airlines routinely overbook and this time someone paid a physical and psychological price for being violently forced to "volunteer." I hope he gets millions.

[Sculpin Beauregard]

236. I do too. Nothing justifies this.

I hope this airline fails bigly and laws change.

[BannonsLiver]

229. Looks like we've got a few United employees spinning hard in this thread

I see you

[athena]

252. Or Russian spies, perhaps?

I often wonder.

[Auggie]

230. BOYCOTT! Friendly skies, my ass

[50 Shades Of Blue]

235. FUCK UNITED! This is not how you treat people! PERIOD!

[C_U_L8R]

238. Totally Trumpian

Beating up customers is great strategy... to bankrupt yourself.

[Foamfollower]

259. Fly United, because...

if we overbook your flight, we'll just beat the living shit out of you and drag you off the flight if you refuse to give up your seat for a pittance.

And please, meet the new head of Customer Service for United Airlines:

[renate]

292. lol (and I mean I literally did LOL at your post)

I wouldn't have thought something funny could have come out of this situation, but you proved me wrong.

[The Big Ragu]

266. PROTIP

When living in a police state and you have the inevitable police encounter:

1. If they are not there to arrest you and you are not under arrest, it's best to just comply. The police can legally murder you or assault you. If they give you a "lawful" command (keep in mind, anything they come up with is a lawful command) you must obey it.

Not saying I agree, not saying it is fair, but if you want to walk away and not get manhandled or assaulted . . . well.

Goes back to the old adage: "pick your battles."

Sometimes you can gamble and lose.

[Gymbo]

268. A better idea

Just have the computer add provisions to each ticket sold past overbooking. I'm also having trouble understanding the brouhaha Louisville is less than 300 miles from Chicago, it can be driven under 4 hours with a one way rental.

[athena]

281. I hope you're suggesting that United drive its people to the destination,

not that a physician who needs to see patients the next morning get an expensive one-way rental and drive all night just to help United solve a problem that it created, and solve it at the lowest possible cost to United.

[bora13]

295. Looks like United

will have a new owner after this. An MD apparently. He will probably sue them into the
next two centuries.

[randome]

307. I kind of doubt a physician would lead off with "I have people to see."

Then shriek and flail about when confronted with police. And then, without apparently being hit, to feign unconsciousness. If the collective wisdom of DU says United is entirely at fault here, I won't belabor the point.

But personally I don't think the man is a doctor.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[ProfessorPlum]

324. Your shifting of blame from the corporation to the victim is noted

it wouldn't matter if he were any other profession, what United did is fucking bullshit. Every human deserves not to be manhandled by thugs in the employ of corporations.

[randome]

328. They were police giving an order to a passenger.

It would be the same if the passenger was distracting or unruly or threatening. If he/she refused to leave, the police are well within their rights to force him/her off.

How this situation developed in the first place is still unknown. As some have pointed out, there was a series of cascading delays in the region so United may have been trying to alleviate the situation by getting that staff to where they were needed most.

That's just speculation, though. I kind of doubt that United collectively decided to stick it to their paying passengers.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[ProfessorPlum]

331. Jesus, what are you, United's PR person?

It's good to know that when it comes down to people versus corporations, there will always be "people" like you who fight against the human beings.

[BannonsLiver]

334. +1

I think the poster likely works at United in some capacity or has a relative or significant other that does. That's the best case scenario, because his/her responses in this thread are NOT those of a progressive in any way shape or form. Very pro authoritarian/corporate America. Lots of he's not a real doctor slurs.

[randome]

335. Who's fighting? How should the police remove someone who refused their order?

Should they have opened an investigation into United first so they could determine if the order was 'kind' or 'fair'?

No. They just do what they're told as well as they can under the circumstances. And in these circumstances, a crowded, confining plane makes everything more difficult.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[geek tragedy]

341. does the passenger appear conscious to you as he's being dragged from the plane?

if they knocked him out, probably not a reasonable use of force.

[randome]

342. If they knocked him out, it was absolutely excessive force.

From the video, however, it looks like he hit his head on the opposing row of seats once they dragged him into the aisle. If that's the case, it looks like an accident. In a confining space like that, well...it complicates being forceful, that's all.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[geek tragedy]

353. that's something a jury will certainly be able to consider.

Not sure United wants a jury to consider this case, however.

Also interesting legal question--were they allowed to bump the passengers at all? They weren't bumping passengers for overbooking, they were doing it to provide employee transportation.

The relevant federal regulations couch everything in terms of "in the event of an oversold flight." Maybe the need to shift employees counts as an oversold flight.

[randome]

364. Oh. Good question. You can bet that such 'niceties' as federal regulations won't last long...

...under the current administration, if they have anything to say about it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[ProfessorPlum]

346. Indeed, the police just "do what they're told" by their corporate masters

and they do it.

Far be it for them to refuse an order that might be unlawful or fucking orwellian, as this one was, after all they are just serving the corporate overlords in their suppression of the proles.

[jberryhill]

355. One set of passengers was going to lose, regardless

Absent a crew that had satisfied the FAA rest requirements at the destination airport, then there was an entire planeload of passengers who weren't going to be going anywhere.

[randome]

368. A Catch-22 situation.

I would think the situation that developed could be plotted using chaos theory and a catastrophe curve.

It was inevitable that the system 'break' at some point. Unfortunately it broke at the level of one passenger.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[0rganism]

354. from the first video it looked like he hit his head on the armrest across the aisle

when the popo THREW him there, 3rd video has someone remarking about him having a split lip - which doesn't usually happen all on its own, needs external assistance.

will you return to withdraw your statement after the victim has been confirmed to be a doctor?

[randome]

367. I won't withdraw any statement. I will admit to being wrong, though.

I'm not certain that 'threw' is the right term. He was being tugged away from his seat and probably the guy suddenly lost his grip, resulting in inertia and momentum and mass equations and all that stuff falling into play.

It's a confining space, which makes the use of force all the more difficult, I would think. I wonder if police in airports have special training for those kind of conditions. If not, and if such a thing exists, they should definitely be prepared.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]

[EleanorR]

450. The guy is a doctor, as is his wife. nt

[bdamomma]

317. K&R

they randomly selected 4 people after people did not volunteer on their own. Just heard on Thom Hartmann.

[tblue37]

322. Being knocked unconscious is no minor thing. It can cause long term problems.

That is horrifying.

[duncang]

332. No matter what way you look at it.

It all started from the united overbooking procedure. Doesn't matter whether he was a doctor or not. The next thing was how united handled it. They do know as they are letting people in at the gate that is also a united problem. Before it went to having some one removed physically they should have increased the incentive amount. A guaranteed flight and cash compensation. It was posted (Don't know if confirmed) that they did it and put on united employees so they could get to their next flight assignment. Some have said well he could have just driven his self. How about if united had arranged alternative transportation to their employees? Paid for the cost of the rental, possibly a driver and travel time to the employees? I also have to question the use of federal employees to enforce a companies overbooking procedures.

[bronxiteforever]

333. Aren't we missing the fact that McConnells wife is sec of transportation

Where is she on this? Time to get some accountability statement from her-after all we pay her. Need some Senator Warren persistence from the consumer side.

[BannonsLiver]

338. Her response will be similar to the many pro authoritarian responses in this thread

[Idoru]

337. Ok, I'm done with DU

Came back after years away. Now it's turned into freepervile, with people defending a company getting cops to knock a paying passenger unconscious and bloody because the airline overbooked and demanded his seat for one of their employees. The man was non-violent and there is NO excuse for what they did, unless you there is something very wrong with your values.

I was already disappointed with where this forum was going, this is the last straw.

Enjoy your corporate police state. "Rules are rules. Which will be enforced with extreme prejudice."

[Orrex]

348. We'll try to struggle on without you.

[Idoru]

350. Good luck with that

[uppityperson]

387. There are only a few doing that. Most are rightfully appalled

[athena]

429. Don't leave.

We need compassionate humans here. Just put those people on ignore. It really makes DU a more pleasant place.

[AgadorSparticus]

352. $400, $800 is not very much for tickets these days...that doesnt

Even calculate in the time and inconvenience. United apparently doesn't have a good reputation on treating people well. And united wondered why there were no takers?

This is the company's problem. NOT the paying customers. If you overbook, be prapared for the consequences. Get ready to dish out a LOT of money...
not peanuts and then call security to do your dirtywork because you are too cheap and greedy.

The court of public opinion will be far worse than any lawsuit. But I hope the good doctor sues nevertheless...

[Hoyt]

359. Clearly no one should be treated like that. But it's not like doctors don't overbook their office

schedule and run way behind nowadays.

[uppityperson]

389. Do they then randomly choose patients, tell them to leave, bloody their faces and drag them out if

they don't?

[Hoyt]

399. No, but they do leave you sitting there sick for hours.

[HoneyBadger]

369. Supposedly not United metal

REPUBLIC AIR

[HoneyBadger]

370. Prob nothing to do with Republican party

Who knows.....

http://www.rjet.com

[SaschaHM]

375. Some of the responses to this post represent the worst of DU.

An Asian Doctor in Economy class needs to get back to see patients is now part of the privileged class and you folks wonder why people hate liberals? JFC. You're acting like a bunch of resentful folks becomes someone has managed to accomplish something in life,which isn't easy for any of us, and actually put his patients above monetary incentives from a corporation.
Given half the xenophobic/racist/sexist shit that pops up in DU, do you really think life has been a cakewalk for a 60+ year old Asian man when the "progressives" are racist as fuck too? Not to mention DU's love of authoritarianism when it comes to PoC that aren't compliant, but not when it's a bunch of white kids refusing to be compliant as well.

[dalton99a]

419. The racist bigoted vitriol toward the Asian doc in these threads is deplorable.

He's unscrupulous
He's fake
He's pretending to be hurt
He's pretending to be disoriented
He's rebellious
He's throwing a tantrum
He's poorly dressed
He's too loud
He's greedy
He's uppity
etc. etc.

I'm waiting for "He punched himself in the mouth"

[miyazaki]

425. Ya. They out themselves every now and then. Been watching it for over thirteen years here.

United completely effed this up and know it. They'll be working damage control for a long time on this one.

[Heartstrings]

377. It makes no difference who he was

Where he was going, or when he had to get there...he is a human being and deserves to be treated as one...

Geesh people! Arguing about what he does, why he's allegedly privileged, etc., is totally irrelevant. He bought and paid for his ticket, was seated on the plane and was physically removed by force! Brutal force!

Put yourself in his place for just a mere second...how many of you would have done the same thing out of pure frustration with this airline? Think about it...and this man. Our country is severely lacking empathy, please show some now for this man who was taking a stand and resisting.

[uppityperson]

390. +++++++

[flying-skeleton]

395. I hope this man ...

sues United BIGLY and the courts set an example once and for all that BIG CORPORATIONS can be cut down to size !!

I have refused to patronize United for almost 20 years precisely due to their lack of service and empathy !!

[Kablooie]

405. An ex United employee responds (from viewfromthewing website)

UA was my family airline (we had many employees including myself) but I refuse to fly them because of the dregs of society they have been forced to hire. followed by an exodus of good and faithful employees who made the airline great, which it obviously is no longer Theft, terrorizing passengers, taking advantage of the weak who could not fight back – I have seen the worst of the worst and with the government protecting them, they have become Nazi’s and I could write a book on the way I have seen passengers, including myself, treated. I was so proud when I worked for United, as was my family. Now we are ashamed. This incident is just one of hundreds but happened to be publicized unlike the others.. When you fly, you had better be prepared to be treated like this and worse by any and all airlines..

http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/10/really-happened-last-night-doctor-dragged-off-united-flight-happens-youre-denied-boarding/

[dalton99a]

422. No, United is not normal.

People who are trying to normalize what happened should be ashamed of themselves.

[caraher]

433. I have a FB friend defending United

Hypothetical situation: So let's say Starbucks sells you a coffee, and then tell you they are out after you have paid, but offer you your money back and additional compensation...and tell you they will have another store bring over more of what you ordered within 90 minutes, yet you refuse to leave the store without coffee, throw a tantrum and run around the store like a crazy person...police are called to remove you and you still refuse to leave so they have to remove you with force. How is this Starbucks fault? They tried to make things right and you decided to be a child. The police dragged you out, not Starbucks staff.

In reply, someone wrote,

I actually view it differently. Imagine ordering a cup of coffee at Starbucks. You are given the coffee, but just before you take a sip someone tells you that you have to give it up because they sold too many. You are then told that since you lost in a lottery, you have to give it to someone else. You naturally refuse, and are then greeted by three people who take your coffee, hurt you, and then call it customer service.

to which the airline employee responded,

That's not even close to reality of what happened, but from someone outside the industry, I would expect that viewpoint. This happens literally everyday on multiple flights and nobody refuses. When a law enforcement officer gives you an order, regardless of the situation, and you don't comply...what happens next is on you.

He (and his airline friends) made a big deal about how the passenger was "in breach of contract" when he refused to give up his seat, as if that justifies everything that followed. On top of the haughty rejection of the corrected analogy (odd how on one hand it's the passenger's fault for not having memorized the fine print associated with the boarding pass, yet at the same time only airline employees have the secret knowledge to assess what the proper analogy is, what reasonable behavior for passengers, crew and law enforcement would be, etc. - seems to me you can't have that both ways, logically speaking).

"OBEY" seems to be advice to paying customers...

[dalton99a]

434. Yep. Be a good serf - obey our corporate overlords

or else their hired thugs will beat or kill you

[athena]

435. First of all,

nobody was "offered (their) money back and additional compensation." They were offered a "voucher". That's like Starbucks taking away the coffee and offering a coupon for $2 that must be spent at Starbucks within a restricted period of several days, and only during off-peak hours. And then calling the police when the person refuses to give up the coffee they paid for.

It's not like the flight was delayed because of weather or mechanical problems. The second analogy is much better: the customer has to give up the coffee so that a Starbucks manager who just walked in can have it.

Finally, as other DUers have pointed out elsewhere, by that airline employee's argument, Rosa Parks should have gone to the back of the bus. Indeed, that is the best analogy, since Black people could sit at the front of the bus as long as all the White people had seats. But the moment a White person needed a seat at the front of the bus, a Black person had to go to the back. What this poor gentleman attempted was a form of civil disobedience, and he was physically abused for it. It is un-American to attack him rather than those who were so violent to him. (Then again, we now live in the Corporate States of America, so perhaps it is American to defend Corporations when they violate the dignity of individual citizens.)

[radical noodle]

436. Rules are a terrible thing to waste

https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

There are voluntary and involuntary bumpings. They are supposed to look for people who do not have a deadline to get somewhere.

DOT requires each airline to give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn't. Those travelers who don't get to fly are frequently entitled to denied boarding compensation in the form of a check or cash. The amount depends on the price of their ticket and the length of the delay:

Much more at link.