I figured out what's pissing me off about all this hate being thrown on the left.

[retrowire]

Last edited Wed Apr 26, 2017, 03:59 PM - Edit history (2)

I seem to be taking it personally because I consider myself liberal and leftist.

But all these attacks on the left saying that it's imposing right wing policies and going after Obama and all that shit is confusing me.

Did I not get a memo?

But then I thought about it for a second. Wild idea, just stay with me for a second.

What if all of those leftists supporting Trump or Russia or attacking Obama or whatever...

What if they're imposters? What if they're trolls, meant to whip up a fervor against the actual leftists like myself?

I mean, being liberal isn't just a title. It's about your actions. That's what defines you. So if, for example a "leftist" is shouting for Trump to tear it down so we can start over, or if a leftist is saying, women's rights are unimportant, then maybe, JUST MAYBE... They aren't a leftist?

Regarding Bernie's recent actions, he's still leftist. He does care about women's rights. He might not just be wording it as eloquently as he could and MAYBE (because I'm not a genius) his philosophy of "economic reform first and everything else will fall in place perfectly" is right, maybe it's not. But that's for the political analysts and historians to talk about.

Point is or TL;DR, Stop attacking the left for bad leftists or imposters actions. Every movement has false entities that seek to make them look bad. I think that happened to BLM and I KNOW it's happened to we feminists.

If it doesn't quack like a leftist, it ain't a real leftist.

Thanks for reading.

[LexVegas]

1. Susan Sarandon is an imposter?

[MFM008]

3. she is an opportunist

and I ignore people who are not democrats.
That includes her and Sanders.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

53. wait, what?

Phrased that way, it seems your position is whatever it is the Democratic Party represents is better/more useful/helpful to the working/middle class than what Sanders says he stands for. Am I understanding that correctly?

[retrowire]

4. That's basically what I'm saying yes.

Her actions are not beneficial for minorities or the many other things the left care about, am I right or wrong?

[obamanut2012]

18. No, she isn't an impostor at all, so stop with that

She both revels in, and is sincere about, her awfulness.

[retrowire]

33. I think you missed the point there. Nt

[Demsrule86]

2. I have not seen one person except the far far left going after Pres. Obama who is adored by

me. By the way...I am a liberal and leftist which is why I support among other things reproductive rights.

[DanTex]

5. The problem is that far leftists have an audience.

Chris Hedges, for example, is a bestselling author and a Pulitzer winner. People listen to him. And he's not the only one. And I doubt that Hedges is an impostor.

You're right about Bernie, he does care about women's rights. I might disagree with the direction he wants to take the party, but he's clearly a progressive/leftist/whatever.

But one thing I think he could do that would be helpful is to take on people like Hedges and Jill Stein more forcefully. He has a lot of credibility on the left. If he gave a speech talking about how destructive the Green Party has been over the last 20 years, how drawing false equivalencies between the parties does nothing but help Republicans, that would go a long way.

[DownriverDem]

15. Don't forget

Bernie is not a member of the Democratic Party. I'm confused as to what he wants to do.

[R B Garr]

23. Rush Limbaugh is also part of their audience. He is now saying the Democratic party

is failing, and it sounds like he shaped his comments almost entirely from Sanders own attacks on the party, neither one of which helps, that's for sure.

It would be great if Bernie attacked people like Ann Coulter and others you mentioned instead of just Democrats.

[brush]

41. That would be good. Go after the Greens and REPUGS instead of the Dems and we'd all be good.

[NurseJackie]

44. He'd never give a speech like that.

But if he's going to, he needs to do it soon.

[Squinch]

55. I don't pretend to understand what Bernie cares about, but I can't fathom why he felt the

need to bring all of his publicity clout to the MAYORAL campaign of someone who has a terrible record on voting for women's rights.

Why did he need to shuffle around the NATIONAL "unity tour" schedule to bring national attention to a mayoral candidate? And why this candidate?

Why did that have to be part of a tour where he was supposed to be coordinating with Democrats, when he KNOWS abortion rights are an important part of the Democratic platform ? I would have had a lot less problem with it if he had done this on his own steam, independent of the Democratic party, but no.

And I'm sure some will say that he had no idea about Mello's abortion stance. Or he didn't think it would cause a controversy. Well, why the hell didn't he?

From his actions, it seems clear to me that he doesn't care about my rights. He doesn't think he's against them, but he has proven himself willing to kick them to the curb when it's convenient for him to do so.

[OilemFirchen]

71. We know what it's NOT about.

It has nothing to do with the fact that Jane Kleeb, Nebraska Democratic Party Chair, endorsed Sanders. It also has nothing to do with the fact that Sanders won the Nebraska caucus.

So put that out of your mind right now. That's just silly.

[Squinch]

74. So for that reason he had to bring national attention to an anti-choice MAYORAL candidate?

And he had to do it under the aegis of the unity tour, knowing that the mayoral candidate in question was against one of the most important tenets of the Democratic platform?

Okie dokie.

[OilemFirchen]

76. No!

It's anything but that!

Why so cynical?

[Squinch]

77. Born this way I guess. I really don't get why EVERYONE is not up in arms about this.

[Fresh_Start]

6. he's not right and once you realize that you realize his plan is just another way

to suppress women,minorities, immigrants. etc.

"MAYBE his philosophy of "economic reform first and everything else will fall in place perfectly" is right, maybe it's not. " There are already socialists countries and in NONE of them are women treated equally. In all of them non-natives are not treated equally.

Its why I and many others call his priority crap for 60% of America.

[elmac]

25. Without economic reform there can be no

progressive reforms to help minorities, immigrants. As long has we have a caste system no rights can be established, it just can't be done.

[JTFrog]

31. There can be no economic justice without social justice.

It's just another trickle down fantasy.

[Fresh_Start]

48. agree

still can't understand why ppl don't understanding that BS is trying to help the group with above average income at the cost to the groups with below average income.

[Squinch]

56. You know you're advocating "trickle down," right? And you realize that NEVER works, right?

[Eko]

82. Well what great economic reform

allowed same sex marriage?

[Eko]

97. Or DACA?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Eko]

99. Or what economic reform

Brought about the ACA?

[Eko]

100. The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act?

[Eko]

102. The Fair Sentencing Act?

[frazzled]

7. So how do you feel about (or explain) Jean-Luc Mlenchon?

Let's take the discussion to another country (France) where two candidates will be facing off shortly, and the far left candidate did not get enough votes to qualify. Because it's not dissimilar to the situation that occurred (and is still being fought) in the US recently among liberal and leftist constituencies in the US. How will you feel if his intransigence (his hewing to his own ideology at all costs) results in Marine LePen becoming the next president of France? Is he From today's New York Times:

Alone among all of France’s major political personalities, Jean-Luc Mélenchon, the leader of his own “France Unsubjugated” movement, who finished a strong fourth in Sunday’s voting, has refused to endorse Ms. Le Pen’s opponent, the former economy minister Emmanuel Macron. ...

It has also set off a dynamic in the French race much like when Hillary Clinton defeated Senator Bernie Sanders in the Democratic presidential primaries last year — leaving his supporters, still in the thrall of populism, up for grabs as party allegiances broke down. ...

But it is not clear where that vote will now go, not least because far-left populism and far-right populism may have more in common than the seemingly vast gulf between them on the political spectrum would suggest.

Mr. Mélenchon, 65, a former Trotskyite, ran a campaign denouncing banks, globalization and the European Union — just like Ms. Le Pen. A grizzled orator with a penchant for Latin American dictators, he has the same forgiving attitude she does toward the Russian president, Vladimir V. Putin.

Both were competing for working-class voters suspicious of the global financial elite. Mr. Macron had already “ruined the lives of thousands of people” with his pro-market policies, Mr. Mélenchon said during the campaign.

And like Ms. Le Pen, Mr. Mélenchon regularly attacked the news media during the campaign. On election night, after his defeat, he tore into what he called “mediacrats” and “oligarchs.” They were “rejoicing” over “two candidates who approve and want to maintain the current institutions” of government, the longtime fan of Castro and Hugo Chávez said.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/europe/france-melenchon-macron-le-pen.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fworld&action=click&contentCollection=world®ion=stream&module=stream_unit&version=latest&contentPlacement=5&pgtype=sectionfront&_r=0

[retrowire]

8. Well I don't speak for all liberals or leftists

But I can speak for myself.

I was angry and frustrated that Bernie didn't win but Bernie told us to vote Hillary and so I did.

I'm sorry I didn't read all your post. But I hope my personal explanation explains how I feel.

[frazzled]

10. Glad you did

And yes, he did say to vote for her ... but more than a month passed after the primaries ended during which he failed to concede (in fact he never did concede, just skipped that step), and when he finally endorsed her, in mid-July, it was more in the name of "doing everything to stop Trump" than a full-out embrace. Mélenchon's followers are apparently considering a movement to either leave their ballots blank or vote for none.

This is about more than two candidates and an electoral fight, however. The parallels lie in the embrace of a wholly economic, old-school Trotskyist ideology (yes, Sanders was once a Trotskyist, too: he "served as an elector for the Socialist Workers Party, which was founded on the principles of Leon Trotsky&quot , and the idea that any issues of social justice would "trickle down" from the economics. This is something that fell out of favor for many years since the 1970s, but has regained popularity now among the populist left.

It's the populist issue that's a problem for me, because populism, left and right, seems to be closely linked to authoritarianism. What else would explain both French and American leftists hewing so devotedly to their "leaders" and seeing so-called "centrism" as more dangerous than the far right-wing?

[Squinch]

57. We need to frame this and hang it somewhere. Excellent point!

[Starry Messenger]

70. This.

[OilemFirchen]

79. Let's never forget this generation's most famous Trotskyist:

Irving Kristol, founder of neo-conservatism.

There is a lesson to be learned...

[DownriverDem]

16. Except

Many Bernie supporters didn't listen to him and now we have trump. I totally question who those folks really were.

[retrowire]

17. Some are bad

Some are honestly impassioned people who in my opinion, made a bad mistake.

[Wiseman32218]

68. You are right.

If the Jill Stein voters had voted for Hillary in Wisconsin, Michigan and Penn she would have won. It is that simple.

Jill Stein should be embarrassed.

[snort]

24. And she won the popular vote.

If 'they' can steer the discourse ever so slightly toward purity tests then it will sew discord. Small percentages make big changes. And so here we are.

[mopinko]

11. follow the money.

i suspect he is the jill stein of french politics.
the jill stein that got paid to have dinner w putin.

i would love to know where he gets his money.

[HopeAgain]

9. Titles only serve to divide.

It's time we realized that there is no establishment doctrine, there is no leftist manual, we all have left leaning views to one degree or another.

I thought the Occupy people and BLM deserved more direct support from this party, I was frustrated with some of Obama's use of drones and the collateral deaths. What am I, a Tankie because I'm not straight down the line? I have voted Democrat my whole life.

Some things about Bernie I like, some I don't. But there's potential in some of what he says that we can't ignore. If the party tries to silence people on this or that, we will only drive people further off to another Label that won't vote for Democrats.

Debate is good, debate is healthy and I see a lot of people freaking out over ANY criticism of anything Obama or Hillary said or did. Stagnation will kill this party, let's find consensus through tolerance.

[mopinko]

12. if we have learned anything from this debacle, it should be

dont take anything at face value. follow the money, and ask a lot of questions. look for the tells, the little things about people that are a glimpse behind the mask.

that is something i love about du. jill stein, greenwald, snowden, ed shultz, tyt, all got a mountain of shit from astute folks here at du long before their allegiances became clear.
we have finely tuned bs detectors here.
i hope that never changes.

[ananda]

13. Thanks!

Perhaps the word left "purist" might define it more accurately.

I'm a big Sanders fan, but I voted for Clinton in the primary
even though I thought she was the lesser of two evils. But
she did seem to be moving left and seemed to have a good
heart, so it wasn't that difficult.

[retrowire]

14. Those are my feelings as well nt

[obamanut2012]

21. Hillary absolutely was not "the lesser of two evils" -- stop that, too

I am really exhausted with good Dems being insulted on this site.

[retrowire]

28. Maybe consider other people's perspectives?

That's what she was to some people including me.

You are aware some people think she's the devil right?

Doesn't make it fact, but that's people's opinions.

[Eko]

83. Oh no! The Debbil!!!!!

Did you think she was a real devil? Do you think other people are devils and pray tell who are they? Am I one? Hyperbolic?

[retrowire]

84. I... was speaking for other people

Are you serious right now?

[Eko]

85. I'm never serious.

"That's what she was to some people including me."

[retrowire]

86. You're never serious? Oh alright then.

But, just for clarity since some people don't read well...

"That's what she was to some people including me." Was referring to the previous posters "lesser of two evils" title.

Not the devil thing.

Again, what's with everyone being so accusatory?

[Eko]

87. I know you meant lesser of two evils.

But no, I was not being serious, just humorous. Sorry if it offended at all.

[NurseJackie]

34. Wow! -- You viewed Hillary as being evil? She "seemed" to have a good heart? -- Wow!

[Squinch]

58. Still! Still we read the right wing nonsense about her here!

[Scoopster]

19. I was attacked on Twitter today by fellow leftists.

I called out someone a couple days ago for using garbage clearing house websites, opinion pieces and unverified information (i.e. someone's personal blog or twitter) as if they were valid sources for their claims. This afternoon I received a barrage of non-stop vitriol claiming that I was mansplaining (the person I was originally speaking to is a woman, so they assumed wrongly & ridiculously that I'm a MRA) and/or was guilty of the thing I was trying to say (which was that just about every reputable debate prep source or textbook or professors & teachers who coach mock debates & teach law or journalism would verify that claim, and that wasn't good enough for Twitter chatter).

Trumpards doing this kinda shit? I expect it & can handle that just fine. When our own side does it tho, and without warrant or care for the facts, that stings. How the hell do we expect to bring back reality-based politics when even our own side pisses on reality-based critical thinking, facts and proper sourcing?

[retrowire]

27. Here's how.

We realize that those who attacked you aren't on our side.

They are something else.

It's something I came to terms with when I watched JPR corrupt into something else.

[Scoopster]

36. That's the rub tho.

Some of these people are folks that I've previously had positive engagement with on Twitter. Some were even my followers or people I've followed. It was distressing to say the least.

[retrowire]

37. It's the truth tho.

People change.

I went through the same with JPR, if you know about that ordeal.

We all start from being babies, some end up villains, some end up victims and some end up heroes.

[obamanut2012]

20. You just called Sanders a "bad leftist," and don't even realize it

[retrowire]

26. ... how do you know what I didn't realize?

Yes I called him a bad leftist what's so funny? He's not perfect, neither am I. So?

He's still good as well. So is Hillary and Obama.

[NurseJackie]

32. LOL!! :-D

[cwydro]

47. I know, right?

Too funny.

[ancianita]

22. This is confusion by design.We know the history.The alt right is trying to rewrite political history

[bucolic_frolic]

29. The GOP are an army of online posters and troll IMO

Been going on since 2000. They attack in groups, and since their tactics echo it's obvious
they share talking points, get the daily fax from HQ, have each other's backs. If a lefty makes
a good logical virtually unassailable point, they attack something else you said to distract and
discredit.

WE ARE BEING PLAYED. DAILY.

[SecularMotion]

30. Why should we stop attacking bad leftists and impostors?

[NurseJackie]

45. Because they have feelings too?

[dogandturtlemom]

35. Move on to other posts

I just stay true to my progressive beliefs. If I read something offensive trying to disrupt progressive action, I may get irritated. But in the long run, better to stay true to your own moral code. Be kind to each other; support issues rather than mean back and forth.

[retrowire]

38. I guess it just.comes from this

I don't want the leftist movement smeared to the point that people immediately assume that by my position on one thing (pro Bernie) I now must be anti women's rights because of all these imposters or bad leftists.

Same for feminism, bad feminists lead people to think we want men oppressed which is bullshit. We just want women lifted to that level, noone has to be put down. But look around, there are many people out there who get openly offended by the term feminist now.

[Warpy]

39. Oh, some of them are definite trolls

Join DU, run up a couple hundred or so Lounge posts, then get to the real work of trying to split the party. Wait for people who don't know trolling when they see it to jump in. Relax. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I haven't been too polite to point this out on a few threads.

For some reason, this obscure backwater of a site for an out of power political party has become a threat to some people, the ones who hacked it on election day. I'm afraid we're going to have to stay a little more alert than usual in the near future, at least.

Agent Mike was a pushover. These guys aren't.

[retrowire]

40. Agreed.

Who is agent Mike?

[Warpy]

42. He was the gnome in the bowels of whatever agency people were paranoid about

who was taking names and writing down everything said here in preparation for the next round of HUAC investigations.

[tblue37]

94. That is a long-running DU meme--like "moran," "door buzzard," and a few others. nt

[retrowire]

95. And I just recently learned about door buzzard!

Nice to be in the know! lol

[tblue37]

96. Another funny one is "Do not touch the butt." nt

[tblue37]

98. Oh, and the one about being "owed beer and travel money," which was the catch phrase

of a long time ( and long since gone--tombstoned, I believe) DUer whose posts often made little or no sense.

[oldcynic]

43. We are helping Republican fascists bigly.

STOP. SQUABBLING. OVER. VIRGINITY! You all sound like you're holding a purity party and dancing on little girl's toes while lusting after each other's daughters. You sound like President Republican flirting with Ivanka. GET REAL!

Everybody was doing what they thought best. Everybody is doing what they think best. "Everybody" is of no importance. WHAT POLICIES DO THEY SUPPORT! WHAT POLICIES CAN WE SUPPORT.

Third, forth, tenth parties will always be there, always sucking away votes. What exactly can be done to overcome that? DON'T SNIPE...plan, offer alternatives, compromise. Hold your nose and figure out how to co-opt the best ideas of all parties involved.

I am NOT saying we should cooperate with Republican fascists. They are the evil we must join together to fight. YOU. CANNOT. CHANGE. THE. PAST. YOU CAN (maybe) CHANGE THE PATH.
DO. IT. NOW.

Is that enough emphasis? Want to yell about it? You win. I don't give a damn.

[Roy Rolling]

46. Judge an action by its results

A behavioral standard or purity test is nothing but a way to over-simplify predicting a person's future behavior. Don't do it. Judge a person by the results of their actions. That separates reality from speculation.

[Squinch]

49. Nope! Not all trolls! Threats to a woman's right to choose really ARE now coming from the left.

Amazing but true.

[retrowire]

50. Did you read my post?

They aren't the left. They might call themselves that but their actions prove otherwise.

Threats to a woman's right to choose are not a leftist ideal.

They're either imposters, trolls or radical morons.

But that's not the left.

[Squinch]

51. You really need to stop telling women they are reading this wrong. We don't need you

mansplaining this to us. We've been at it a whole lot longer than you.

[cwydro]

59. Thank you Squinch.

Some real cluelessness around here lately.

[Squinch]

61. This idea that we are all interpreting it wrongly. SMH. For NO REASON this

anti-choice MAYORAL candidate's campaign is given NATIONAL attention because Bernie wants it to have national attention. WHY? He couldn't find any mayoral candidates to endorse who actually honored the Democratic platform? In the whole country? Was NONE of them progressive enough?

What the fuck IS that?

The only answer to all this is this: https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8979126

[cwydro]

88. Yup.

I've had my mind blown here lately.

Smh indeed.

[retrowire]

60. Welcome to my ignore list.

Yes I'm a huge sexist and know the gender of everyone I talk to and all my comments are infused with sexism.

/Sarcasm.

[Squinch]

63. This kind of statement is sexist: "Ladies, what you are seeing is not what you say you

are seeing! It's just something else and now I'll tell you what that is!"

[retrowire]

65. I forgot to add you damn

When did I say that? Ever?

[cwydro]

101. He's a very sensitive soul, the OP.

He's just trying to mansplain to us ignorant women is all.

This from a person who admits not even voting until his late 20s. Considers Hillary to be "evil." "The devil

Unreal.

[NurseJackie]

52. No, it's true. Squinch is correct.

None of your verbal gymnastics or technicalities or True-Scotsman logic will change the fact about where the recent and ongoing threats come from.

But I remain hopeful that changes are coming soon and our "progressive leaders" will reassess and reverse on this, and many other, issues.

[BainsBane]

54. Yet Bernie insists at least one of them is a progressive

Last edited Wed Apr 26, 2017, 11:42 PM - Edit history (1)

and the future of the party.

Now Warren just endorsed an anti-abortion candidate in Virginia.

And a number of others are working hard to normalize anti-choice.

[retrowire]

62. But is anti abortion their only goal?

Or is it a glaring stain in an otherwise progressive candidate?

[Squinch]

64. .

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8979126

[retrowire]

66. Yeah that didn't answer my question though.

Is anti abortion those politicians only goal?

[Squinch]

72. So it IS a dispensable right, then, as long as the politician is OTHERWISE sufficiently progressive?

No. It's not a dispensable right. Under any circumstances.

What none of those defending this seem to get is that for those of us who really truly believe that WE own our own bodies, and legislative bodies DON'T own our own bodies, this is not a negotiable point. Our true allies understand this.

But YOU should vote for MY candidate. My candidate is REALLY progressive except for one thing. He wants to pass legislation that requires that YOU, retrowire, are to first go through a risky physical ordeal. You could die from it. The ordeal might have been caused by a rape or other hardship. But you have to go through the ordeal. At the least, you will experience agony like you have never dreamed of during the ordeal.

After the ordeal, the legislation requires that they give you a child you don't want. You'll need to raise that child, even though you don't want to. You won't get any services or help, and we know that it'll drastically reduce your financial security for the rest of your life. But that's what the legislation calls for.

But, see, my candidate is GREAT. The only little problem is that he's all for making you go through that ordeal and do that for the rest of your life against your will. But, hey, that's just a small price to pay for my great candidate, isn't it? He's really progressive! No kidding! You should vote for my candidate. If you let this little piece of legislation stop you from doing it you're just splitting hairs.

Do you get it? This is not negotiable.

[retrowire]

73. Ignoring this?

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8983639

[JTFrog]

67. Otherwise progressive?

So, how do you feel about pro-slavery candidates? Are they somehow otherwise progressive?

Do you seriously not realize how obtuse and insulting you sound?

[retrowire]

69. ...

Facepalm is the word.

Why is everyone so accusatory here? What kind of allies are we trying to be? You wanna complain about the party tearing apart while simultaneously making analogies like that towards me?

I remember in the primaries when I demanded perfection and was lectured about incrementalism. How I shouldn't expect a candidate to be so perfect and should accept progress in any form.

But now the tables are turned. And everyone is yelling about perfection.

I'm pro choice. But are we going to let more states go red because we fought to make sure we got a candidate we loved but made the electorate uncomfortable?

I disagreed in the primaries with Hillary supporters when they said "blue no matter who".

But that's my mantra now.

[Squinch]

75. Ignoring the fact that a woman's right to own her own body is non-negotiable?

And you didn't answer MY question: what basic human right are YOU willing to give up for political expediency?

[Squinch]

81. PS: one more thing. This isn't "yelling about perfection." This is about a basic human right.

Non-negotiable.

[oldcynic]

90. anti-choice, please.

[retrowire]

91. Anti-fetus deletion okay for you?

Let's be creative with more terms that all mean the same fucking thing.

[oldcynic]

93. I am following up on an earlier post about language manipulation

There is pro-choice and anti-choice. It's about choice. Fundamentally, it is not even about abortion. Do not let the enemy decide the words used. That's how they steal your argument and your election.

[cwydro]

103. Wow.

Really?

[BainsBane]

105. their otherwise goal doesn't change the fact

They are refusing to defend equal rights for women. So your claim that the only people doing so are trolls is obviously false.

Again, what can be progressive about enabling policies that greatly increase poverty?

[retrowire]

106. So why was Hillary defended as progressive when she didn't walk a perfect line either?

Or Kaine?

[oldcynic]

89. please, Squinch, name names

[NCTraveler]

78. Let me try to put it this way, respectfully.

I am left of the party. That's on issue after issue. I supported Clinton because I thought she had the most clout to swing things the way I want. You were a Bernie guy for the exact same reason.

I can understand your reasoning. You should be able to understand mine as well. I think one of the more disengenious arguments on this board it that one group is centrist and one group is leftist. I'll put my progressive credentials up against your any day of the week. I think we would come out pretty even. It's one of the reasons I respect you as a poster. But the center or left argument on du is bunk in my opinion.

Note to jury: This is a post about center and left, not the primaries. It was a direct response to what was posed in the op. Thank you.

[retrowire]

80. Sounds damn respectful to me! :) Nt

[oldcynic]

92. NCTraveler, you are a grown person.

Doesn't it all sound a little like Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin squabbles?

[applegrove]

104. Many of us know and believe it is right wing paid trolls of one nationality

or another (does not really matter what nationality they are, their first loyalty is to each other and $$$ not their countrymen).