Historians see dark Underside to Trump's Civil War riff

[Bucky]

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/01/trump-civil-war-237854

I have not been commenting much on Trump's latest rounds of outrage bait lately, mostly because I'm reaching outrage fatigue. Parenting taught me that you do not end childish tantrums by paying attention to them.

But this time he bumbles into my wheelhouse

"The Civil War, if you think about it, why? People don’t ask the question but why was there the Civil War? Why could that one not have been worked out?" Trump added.

Trump for months has riled up history buffs with a range of eyebrow-raising comments, including his claim that not many people knew Abraham Lincoln was a Republican, his apparent ignorance that famed abolitionist Frederick Douglass died many years ago, and his question about whether anyone had heard of Susan B. Anthony.

And the fact that he didn’t seem to be aware of the extensive literature about the cause of the Civil War is now added to the list.

Look, I'm personally not surprised that Trump is "unaware of the extensive literature about" anything, let alone something that happened without his chain of hotels or cheap vodka being affected.

But one thing I see missing from the discussion about Trump questioning why the Civil War couldn't be prevented is the fact that there actually were many attempts to negotiate away the problems of slavery before it got to being a shootin' match.

But the attempts were all one-sided on the part of those opposed to slavery. People favoring slavery responded by seeking out power ruthlessly, and imposing the gag rule in Congress to prevent any discussion on how to reconcile Americanism with slaveholding. Google it.

Some people cannot be reasoned with. Some people that you oppose however can be reasoned with. History teaches us that in a democracy you have to bring the people who can be reasoned with over to your side of the fence, and then beat the stuffing out of those who can't be reasoned with in an election. Those who are willfully against progress four basic human decency do not deserve my dialogue or my anger

Trump's comments will get no more of my outrage. He is incalcitrant and childish. I don't get mad at pigs who don't fly. For the next 18 months my watchwords will be organize, organize, and organize

[tclambert]

1. Yeah, I think "Why did the Civil War happen?" comes up pretty fast when anyone learns about it.

Apparently, Donald missed that day in elementary school. Or maybe he was just distracted giving numerical rankings to the girls in class.

[knightmaar]

3. google it

"Why was there a civil war" - 77 million hits
"Why did Jesus die" - 47 million hits

though, more disturbingly:
"why does canada exist" - 191 million hits

[Historic NY]

4. Wait until they really find out about Canada...

[renegade000]

10. Oh no, Trump is going to want to re-invade... n/t

[IronLionZion]

5. Why is Trump still president?

196 million results

[Ligyron]

2. Everybody needs to be calling the shit out of their Congressional Reps about health care.

Right now - TODAY!!

Passing the GOP plan will be a death sentence for many of us.

[calimary]

11. Definitely!!! If they think you don't care, they won't, either.

We've seen what happens when they actually get it through their thick heads that you DO care.

All those town hall meetings, the marches, the storming of the phone lines on Capitol Hill, the activism that seems to be on steroids - they've had an impact. Do you think the CONS in Congress would be hemming and hawing about pre-existing conditions and how to cover them - if there had been none of this? If they hadn't been CONFRONTED, REPEATEDLY about it? Hell no! They'd have slid through a repeal of the Affordable Care Act and on to the next screw-the-poor assignment at least a couple of months ago. They wouldn't have cared about it. And the word "replace" wouldn't even have entered into their minds, much less on their lips. They wouldn't have bothered.

Now they have a dilemma.

NOW, they KNOW everybody's watching, keeping track, and taking names. And they also know 2018 will be here before they know it. And they can't just shove this shit down our throats without consequences.

AND they know some of their own are already starting to fall away, probably in hopes of getting out of the heat. Like Ileana Ros-Lehtinen - announcing her retirement (she's throwing in the towel, completely). Like Jason Chaffetz, skeedaddling it outta there on the excuse of foot surgery (I'm taking a breakforalongtimeBYE!!!!!). I suspect we might see a few more of those as the months (and the difficulties) go on.

It WASN'T like this, even as recently as January. They were cocky as hell. They owned it all. They ran the table. They probably expected that Democrats would do what they're famous for doing: caving, giving up without a fight. They didn't expect a backlash that roared back at them with sharpened teeth and anger like they've never seen since the teabaggers started forcing their will on everybody. The teabaggers didn't have the numbers OUR movement did. Ever see any of THEIR versions of the Women's March? Nope. NO CON groups got the numbers of people taking to the streets like OUR movement has. I've not seen 750-THOUSAND people marching in L.A. - for ANYTHING. Certainly not for some republi-CON cause, that's for damn sure! Not EVER. I doubt ANYBODY's seen a bigger protest march than the inauguration - that DWARFED the crowd at the inauguration, for that matter.

I also suspect that there's a gnawing fear, maybe a small one for now, about the funky stuff being alleged about trump/Russia. They're all poo-pooing it in public, sure nothing's there, nothing's gonna happen. But I'd bet some of them are worried about it. And as time goes on and it A) doesn't dissipate and B) grows with more allegations and discoveries in the press and other shit that almost literally forces them to at least minimally look into it, that worry will grow.

So let them feel the hot breath of the angry monster starting to bear down on them. Hotter and hotter. Nearer and nearer.

That show of strength on our side has also taken the Dems by surprise, because THEY didn't expect it either. Notice how much more backbone they seem to have now? It's kinda startled me, too - in a good way, because that's been my complaint, too, all along. Anybody remember the footage of Sheldon Whitehouse (one of OURS) being confronted in his own town hall by angry Democratic constituents? He was all set to consider another trump cabinet nominee. The crowd roared NO, and KEPT AT IT! And what happened? He caved - to that crowd. Decided he'd say no to that nominee after all, when he had been on the fence.

We HAVE TO keep at it. And I know it's tiring. Fatiguing. Weary-making. Seemingly endless. Can we ever just get off the treadmill and know things will be okay? Probably not. Even WHEN we see Democrats back in power, we still have to make sure to steer THEM in the right directions, too. It just won't be nearly as hard with people of like mind. It will be steering, rather than pummeling.

But for now, let the pummeling continue!

[BainsBane]

6. Yes. All true. But the celebration of ignorance is disturbing.

and its reflection in his administrations war on science, research, and education.

[dhill926]

9. this is what gets me....

and it's the WILLFUL ignorance that drives me completely crazy...

[Sedona]

7. The unrepresented Georgia 6th Congressional district needs you to call.

PLeeeeeease!

[yellowcanine]

8. "Why could that one not have been worked out?"

Trump is woefully ignorant about all American history or he would not be asking a question like that. Anyone who was moderately alert in school knows that there was at least a forty year run up to the Civil War (Missouri Compromise in 1820). And of course, in reality the seeds of the Civil War were embedded in the Constitution itself with the infamous 3/5 rule which gave inordinate power to states with lots of slaves as well as the undemocratic makeup of the Senate, which acted as a kind of House of Lords in the Nineteenth Century with Senators being chosen by state legislatures and apportioned by state rather than population. All in all, the system gave great power to the South which they used to great effect to preserve slavery. Preserving slavery meant preserving the plantation system itself, which was otherwise not economically sustainable.

For Trump to ask this question at all to me means that he is being willfully ignorant, likely to appease right wing neo-Confederates, who want nothing more than to make the national conversation be about state's rights. To do that one has to make the Civil War be about state's rights and the first step in that progression is to feign ignorance about the actual cause of the Civil War, which was slavery.

[calimary]

12. That actually makes me laugh. "Why could that one not have been worked out?"

Ohforcryingoutloud.

He still thinks this can be done like another business deal.

"...not have been worked out..."

What? You make 'em a deal so they can have slavery three days a week and four not? FOUR days a week and three not? You don't have to pay 'em but you do have to give 'em "free stuff"?

CRIMINY...

The private sector mentality DOES NOT BELONG in the public sector. Hell, Lindsey Graham just this moment (as of this writing) whined to Kate Bolduan on CNN that - "this is a lousy way to run a business." Well, there's that mentality again. AGAIN! Hey Lindsey - NEWS FLASH: You DON'T run government like a business! DAMMIT, WHEN are they gonna get that? That just ISN'T the way it works! That just ISN'T the way it's SUPPOSED to work! Because government IS NOT a business. It's NOT designed primarily and almost exclusively to make profit. It's a PUBLIC TRUST. Owned by THE PUBLIC, NOT some CEO at the top of the ziggurat. These are two completely different and quite separate universes - government and the business world. They don't operate the same way. They just don't. And no amount of changing or pontificating or voting or wishing or lobbying or speechifying or proselytizing or grandstanding will make it so. They're. Just. DIFFERENT. PERIOD. Cold STOP.

Dear little Lindsey demonstrates that he obviously still doesn't get that. NONE of them gets that. They're still looking for that "wish sandwich" that the Blues Brothers once talked about. "You have two pieces of bread, and you WISH you had some meat."

[Bucky]

14. I could at least excuse it, if it came from someone who could actually make deals

But Trump's political record so far shows he doesn't know how to cut deals. He does not understand the deal-making process in a political setting. Apparently what he calls deal making in the business world consists of obstinately holding out until people give in to his demands. Or withholding payments if he thinks he can push the littler guy around

So it's not surprising that he empathizes more with the South now. That is exactly how the South "negotiated" over slavery for 3 decades before the Civil War. Running out the clock works during a ball game, but not in a societal or political dispute

[loyalsister]

13. Are we really too dumb to see through it?

I have read and heard instances of people claiming we are in the middle of a civil war now. Ya know what might be a good way to stoke it? Get these people to refert to arguing about states rights vs. humanitarian interests. Southern economic persecution, etc. They benefit from division.

[Bucky]

15. But of course we're not in the middle of a civil war right now

The threshold for "war" has to be a lot more than "disagree vehemently"

[loyalsister]

16. I agree

But I have talked with people who think of where we are as civil war.