General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDear Allies: Use WHATEVER WORKS.
Holy fucking Lord Jesus motherfucking Christ on a cracked up fucking pogo stick: These. are. unprecedented. times. We are the party that supports gay rights. They want to ship gays off to Chechnya. So we when say, "Why is Donald Trump all over Vladmir Putin's dick" or "the best use of Donald Trump's mouth is as Vladmir Putin's cock holster", it isn't because anyone is trying to bother gays, and you know it. It bothers *them*, and *we* know that, too.
Saying either one of those things is a far fucking cry from alienating the gay community. Pretending it does gaslights this whole situation. Fuck that. I am a *strong* supporter of the gay community, of gay rights...always have been. No one is going to tell this hag that shit. *Nope* And pretending that should be our focus, OR THAT WE HAVE TO REMOVE THAT LANGUAGE FROM OUR ARSENAL TO APPEASE ANYONE IS BULLSHIT. Use WHATEVER WORKS.
When someone gets referenced as a "bitch", it is not always an insult to women. Pretending that it is, or THAT WE HAVE TO REMOVE THAT LANGUAGE FROM OUR ARSENAL IS GASLIGHTING. Use WHATEVER WORKS.
I am serious right fucking now, this is some BULLSHIT right here. When they go low, DON'T BACK DOWN. Don't *cater* your outrage to appease someone else's spite invective...there is a *politics* to that kind of censorship, and we all fucking well know it.
When they go low, DON'T BACK DOWN.
WHEN THEY GO LOW, DON'T BACK DOWN.
WHEN THEY GO LOW, DON'T BACK DOWN.
*That* is how we undo the coup.
aikoaiko
(34,186 posts)Meh.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)You have to remove the captain and change the course.
Feathers might get ruffled, because the majority of this will be the typewritten word.
moriah
(8,311 posts)I thought it was perfect BECAUSE of Putin and Trump's avowed anti-gay crap, and the poutrage from those who just wish they could use the insult themselves (literally, it was not "that is bad" but "If someone said that word on Fox..." has me feeling much shadenfreude.
But I don't want to offend people *here* I care about, and I get why it is that it's a sensitive subject. Society has made the metaphor of having a penis in your mouth to mean that you're weak, dominated, etc. I'd rather the idea of reclaiming it, but I can only reclaim words used against me, it's up to others to decide if they want to reclaim that one.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Because we need to fight THEM, and not each other on HOW to fight them.
Use WHATEVER WORKS.
moriah
(8,311 posts)I haven't had that insult used to demean me. I can't speak from that experience.
Hasn't stopped me from sharing the brilliance of the rest of Colbert's great rant. Because it does fight the common enemy.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)Of course, not everyone even who HAS had that insult and other tropes thrown at them is going to have the same opinion of the term in general usage, or as Colbert used it.
All I know is DUers have expressed discomfort and so while I will share the righteous rant, I won't specifically point out that part when I'm highlighting the other great content. Best I can do.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)And that's despicable.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)regardless of the effect on gay people.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)of the vessel will fix matters?
Give me a friggin' break.
MFM008
(19,834 posts)......
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)a lot about a person when they do that.
RedWedge
(618 posts)Why you'd want to use language that does is beyond me.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Since BOTH gay references in my OP are not demeaning at all.
RedWedge
(618 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)others say it hurts. Like...way to show you won't be bossed around? That will really stick it to the GOP? I guess?
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)Not with this particular poster.
whathehell
(29,103 posts)It's not a bright strategy.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)And that contributes to a homophobic cultural atmosphere.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)when they go low, you don't back down, and you *certainly* don't remove weapons from your arsenal
ANY of them.
This is undeniably stupid, and it hamstrings us.
*nope*
In fact, I implore my gays to give us fresh ammunition because "suck a golf ball through a garden hose" is dated by now, and I'm sure there's something more fresh out there.
But ***FUCK*** that "don't say "he's on his dick" or say "they're bitching and moaning" because that might offend people in our community.
FUCK THAT ALL DAY LONG. PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO IMPOSE THAT SHIT ARE DIVISIVE AND GASLIGHTING US. FUCK THOSE MOTHERFUCKERS. I AM NOT EVEN KIDDING. FUCK ***ANYBODY*** WHO TRIES TO FIGHT *US* WHILE WE'RE FIGHTING *THEM*. THEY ARE ONLY HELPING TRUMP CHUMPS. SHIT, THEY COULD EVEN BE RUSSIAN. WHO KNOWS.
I know this: *they* have gone so low, that I will NOT back down. If GOPee party people get 'outted' because some of those motherfuckers are so far in the closet they're in Narnia, TOUGH FUCKING SHIT. I won't even be sorry... and know that outting someone in the closet is a huge no. Wanna know why I dpn't give a shit...like I won't even be sorry...TREASON IS WORSE.
Fuck that.
all day long.
USE WHATEVER WORKS. Call them bitches, 'mo's, ho's, motherfuckers, assholes, I don't give a flying rat's ass, but best BELIEVE anyone trying to hamstring you on this issue wants you to bring a pen to a gun fight.
FUCK THAT.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)You don't own gay people. They are not yours to weaponize against DT.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Are you for real?
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)Yes.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Reminds me of someone else's similar quote during the campaigns...
Caliman73
(11,760 posts)I am not getting it. Saying "Donald Trump is gay and sucks cock" is insulting to him, yes. He would probably be very offended by hearing or seeing that. HOWEVER you ask yourself WHY? Because to him and many other people, being gay is bad and sucking cock is about the worst thing a non-gay man can do. So who are you insulting? Well, Donald Trump yes, but you are doing so by saying that he is gay. Why is that an insult? You are saying that sucking cock is bad. Why? Is it? Is it bad when men do it to other men only? Is it bad when women do it? Where does the insult come from? What makes "gay" a bad word?
That is what you need to think about.
"Not backing down" does not mean that we act just as shitty as they do. It means we fight.
Have you ever been in a physical fight? Like a real fist/kicking, beating with a stick type fight? You can defend yourself and stop your opponent without being a dirtbag. You can knock someone out without calling them slurs or demeaning them.
Also, gaslighting is when a person tries to make another person doubt their reality. I do not see how pointing out that using "gay" as an insult is demeaning to gay people would be gaslighting. Can you explain that?
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Boring.
And used wrongly most often.
Caliman73
(11,760 posts)I like having discussions but I think that in order to do that, you have to be on somewhat of the same page as to what terms mean, which I why I ask questions and ask people to explain what they mean.
I understand the passion and sense of urgency that people have. There is a sense that things are spinning out of control and some people see these issues about language as distraction, but language is shaped by and shapes thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors. I said in another thread, which is the thread that sparked this thread, that when I was young, I used to use words like, "gay" and "retarded" as insults, then I started to figure out that the insult is actually supposed to be the comparison of the individual you are insulting with the condition of being gay or having an intellectual disability. Having friends who are gay and having worked with people who have intellectual disabilities, I see now that using their human condition, their being, as an insult is damaging and that it can certainly lead us to become like these Republican and conservative leaders and many followers who do not even see gay people, black people, disabled people, other minorities, or women as full human beings. So, it is a big issue.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)a teenager in a red state, use the expression "that's so gay" -- referring to something negative.
When i told her that that expression was hurtful, her first reaction was to say that of course she wasn't talking about gay people. But as I explained, she quickly understood -- and mentioned that her best friend's brother was gay. She never would have purposely said something that might hurt him.
That was that. She eliminated the phrase from her vocabulary. I'm disappointed to see adults here in blue DU who are much more resistant than she was to listening to reason, and caring about people's feelings.
Which is why I always ask, "What is the insult you are trying to communicate with that word or phrase?"
whathehell
(29,103 posts)and maybe we might actually find demeaning straight people as important as demeaning gays? Just a wild assumption.
mythology
(9,527 posts)You repeatedly insult anybody who has the temerity to disagree with you and yet in your arrogance, you don't even begin to notice the irony of you claiming no one is the arbiter of the meaning of a word.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)as Eleanor Roosevelt said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent".
"Have the temerity to disagree with me?" LOL, oh, you're a SCREAM!
False equivalence much?
kcr
(15,326 posts)And about that awful quote. For one thing, as with a lot of quotes floating around, it isn't correct. What she actually said was, "A snub is the effort of a person who feels superior to make someone else feel inferior. To do so, he has to find someone who can be made to feel inferior." It was in response to someone asking her how she felt about some controversy in the Roosevelt administration. In context it was a subtle jab at the snubber, not the snubee. She was basically calling the snubber out while telling them their nonsense didn't work. It was not the bullying victim blaming quote that it was twisted into.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)our arsenal during these unprecedented times.
(and I am not wrong on the Roosevelt quote either, but I appreciate your attempt to marginalize me)
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/30/no-one-inferior/
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e/eleanorroo161321.html
https://simple.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eleanor_Roosevelt
kcr
(15,326 posts)But a weapon that also damages you while you use it might not be the best choice. Hurting allies in order to hurt enemies makes no sense.
And that first link backs my point about the quote being wrong.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)and that's what you are doing here.
You are treating gay people as a group to weaponize against DT/Putin -- and that's just as wrong as when right-wingers hurl those slurs at gay people.
You can't say it's wrong for Republicans and Russians to hurt gay people while you are doing it with every word coming out of your mouth.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)And that's NOT what I am doing here.
I am treating WORDS as weapons, not gay people. You think that's yours to *assign* to me. I can assure you, it is not.
Because your insistence on fighting *this* HELPS them divide and conquer us.
Really.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)As if the English language isn't ripe with other possibilities, as if only hurling gay slurs will be insulting enough.
You can't even see your own homophobia. But that's often the way it is.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)no matter what you think.
Weaponizing gay people is using them -- is dehumanizing them.. Period.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)They want lower taxes, so they weaponize homophobia and gay slurs.
You want DT out of office, so you weaponize homophobia and gay slurs.
Same thing.
Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)They would certanly find it an insult, and if there aren't weapons removed from your arsenel, it must be perfectly fine for you to use.
Go ahead. I'm waiting.
Although I suspect you know very well how offensive that would be to people you claim are your allies - for exactly the same reason that calling somene gay as an insult is offensive to members of the LGBT community.
Unprecedented times do not make it acceptable to use people you claim are your allies as a battering ram. In fact, it is times like these that make it even more important that we act gently with those on our side - and that includes listening when members of a group to which you claim to be an ally ask you to step off of their foot.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Last edited Fri May 5, 2017, 07:31 PM - Edit history (1)
Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)Seems to be a thing these days.
Not to mention that people who waggle their dicks around in public shouldn't be surprised when bad things happen to their dicks.
The topic of bad allies has come up a lot lately. Some people want to know how to identify bad allies. Others want to know if they are being bad allies. Below is a list of common issues in the ever popular internet quiz style to help you determine if yourself or someone else might be a bad ally.
http://juliepagano.com/blog/2014/02/26/bad-ally-quiz
0-1: Either youre an amazingly awesome ally or you lied on the quiz. The latter seems more likely shame on you.
2-10: Youre doing a pretty good job, but remember that being an ally is an ongoing process, so you should continue to work hard.
11-24: Youre making some mistakes and have room for improvement, but you are making good progress.
25-49: You make a lot of mistakes, but might still act as an ally at times. You have a lot of room to improve. You should spend more time educating yourself.
50-99: You are rarely or never an ally, but might be able to start developing your skills if youre willing to work hard. You need to spend a lot of time on educating yourself.
100+: Youre not ready to be an ally. Stop claiming you are. Go educate yourself.
1000+: Youre not even close to being an ally. In fact, youre probably actively harming members of the group youre supposedly allied with. STOP IT. Work on improving asap.
5000+: Youre not an ally. Youre a shitty human being. What the fuck is wrong with you?
Just in this thread, alone, I can count to more than 1000.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)And your participation shows your very own hypocrisy, complete with a SCORING system.
Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)The scoring system has nothing to do with me. It is a scoring system for those who claim, as you have, to be an ally.
As a lesbian, that gives me the right to address whether using me as a battering ram to insult others is acceptable. (It is not. Ever.)
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)We should all error on the side of NOT being offensive.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)If you are offending or wounding a significant group of gay people with your slur, then it is wrong.
If you have enough empathy, which you apparently do not, then try to imagine being a 14 year old boy just becoming aware of his identity. Kids that age DO watch Colbert. And what happens when they become aware that gay sexual practices are viewed as the ultimate insult?
And here you pretend to be an ally but you want to add your voice to that. You want to USE gay people for your purpose of hurting Putin and DT in what you view as the ultimate way.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)You said:" it isn't because anyone is trying to bother gays, and you know it. It bothers *them*, and *we* know that, too."
You are advocating the use of this as the ultimate insult against DT and Putin, but by doing so you are validating it as an insult.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)I can't sit here, as a straight woman, and tell a gay guy whose been called those things their discomfort with the term is irrelevant.
It's not up to allies to start telling the people we're supposed to be allies with how to feel and why they shouldn't be offended. Mansplaining, whitesplaining, straightsplaining.... it's all part of the same shit.
whathehell
(29,103 posts)I find your language ugly, even 'coyote ugly', apologies to coyotes
angstlessk
(11,862 posts)Kick & rec...you hold nothing back..
Sculpin Beauregard
(1,046 posts)I will not stand for my language being policedthere lies the way of the doubleplus ungood authoritarian police state.
Which is what the Trump regime is doing its best to manifest.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Sculpin Beauregard
(1,046 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)The English language is full of language that could be used that isn't hurtful to a specific group of allies.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Caliman73
(11,760 posts)You know that rich people are 60% likely, or more, to get their proposed legislation passed while non rich people are about 20% likely to have the same?
How is learning to use language that is not demeaning to marginalized groups an obstacle to "saving the soul of democracy" when the votes of non rich people are already worth so little?
We can chew gum and walk at the same time. We can encourage people to think about what they say at the same time we encourage them to fight.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Did he actually say that being gay was wrong? NO! He implied that tRump and Putin are intimately tied and that tRump is in an inferior position. Suppose it was Melania he was talking about. Would it have been horribly wrong then? No, nobody would have said anything because it would imply straight sex. But sex is sex, gay or straight.
There has been plenty of gay bashing in the protest against Putin, and I will agree that it should be stopped. Colbert's joke, however, was not gay bashing.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)whatever the intention behind it.
fishwax
(29,150 posts)This analysis (which is spot on in terms of how the language was used) would seem to suggest that sucking cock makes one inferior. And that's part of the reason people object to language like this.
It has been used to cast women as inferior as well. Anything having to do with penetration automatically assumes the person being penetrated is in an inferior position.
fishwax
(29,150 posts)Sucking cock doesn't make you inferior, whether you're a man or a woman. But those insults both draw on and ultimately shore up support for that assumption.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Here either. We have community standards, and we agreed to them when joining. Y'all got the entire rest of the net for sexist shit.
demmiblue
(36,914 posts)What the hell? I am amazed at the casual acceptance/promotion of homophobia and sexism.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)It has to do with our culture's sexual taboos. In a sexually repressed society, straight sex missionary style is the only acceptable sex.
Saviolo
(3,284 posts)They're not attacking gay men like myself with their rhetoric when they're saying that Trump and Putin are having sex together. They're using gay imagery and iconography to make fun of Trump and Putin's toxic masculinity. And yeah, it's pretty funny sometimes.
I also got called fag and cocksucker for decades.
So, every time you use those words out loud in front of people, you might be pushing one young gay kid further into the closet because he thinks it must be SO WRONG to be gay that they're using it to insult these terrible people.
Does it bother Trump and Putin? Yeah, absolutely. In Putin's case, it likely means that he's going to put MORE pressure on homosexuals in Russia, and they're already rounding them up in Chechnya and telling mothers to KILL THEIR GAY CHILDREN SO THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T HAVE TO!
So pardon me when I ask for my allies to please not use homosexuality as an insult. I'm not demanding it, and I know it's not gonna stop. The target is just too juicy. I just wish sometimes that my allies on the left weren't so eager to try and upset and demean a strong man literally killing gay people with "Haha, he's a gay!" jokes.
mythology
(9,527 posts)It's sad that people here feel the need to use such language/imagery. If the worst thing you can think to call somebody is bitch or gay, you're saying that being female or being gay is bad. Plus is shows a remarkable lack of imagination in one's capacity to insult.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Unfortunately, the op doesn't get this.
Behind the Aegis
(54,052 posts)The only people I see calling for Colbert's head are hypocritical republicans who couldn't care less about homophobia. As I said in another post, the irony here is the RW is howling about homophobia, while the left, our supposed allies, is ignoring the homophobia. This isn't the be all to end all of anti-gay insults, and as far as Colbert is concerned, he is very gay positive, but it doesn't change the fact it is demeaning to gay people.
Some animals are more equal than others. Apparently, we need to be 'splained to as to why using homophobia is OK when our side does it to "bad" people.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)not the intent."
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)and thus gay people, as a weapon against DT/Putin.
When she weaponizes gay slurs, she is dehumanizing gay people.
Your insistence that we fight each other instead of them is MUCH more of a threat to the gay community.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)or vocabulary -- and I know Stephen Colbert doesn't -- there are plenty of other equally insulting things that could be said to a narcissist that wouldn't involve hate slurs.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)Because there's no difference.
whathehell
(29,103 posts)or are we just not that important?
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)And it is a different thing for a gay person to choose to use a slur like this than for a straight so-called ally.
whathehell
(29,103 posts)To use them, but so are men and that's not the point --- It's self-hating, stupid, and sell-defeating.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)I'm not trying to explain away something that exists. I can see how a lot of people would jump on the Colbert thing and call it gay bashing. But I just don't see that as a rational response. I see it as a RW attempt to make it into something it isn't. And, yeah, I can also see that trying to turn it into something it's not can be dangerous as well.
What I hope for is a more open discussion of gay issues. I don't think it's enough to say, "Oh, let's all embrace the LBGT community" and then go on about our business as usual. Come to think of it, I've been keeping a mental note of how many (few) threads there are about LGBT issues. I see them every once in a while, and it seems like it's the weekly "token" thread. In other words, I feel like the correct response is to call out the RW pundits for twisting the narrative while having a meaningful dialogue about gay issues. Otherwise, the RW wins.
Finally, I admit that I am writing this from the privileged position of being a straight, white male. So, no, I can't truly imagine your experience. I just don't want you to think I'm making light of it.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)people on the left, you would recognize it as gay bashing.
But somehow you think that being an ally of some sort allows you to use gay slurs against people you don't like.
You're wrong. It doesn't. Whether you are gay bashing is NOT dependent on some feeling inside your head -- in other words, if you hate gay people, it's gay bashing; if you love gay people, then it's not bashing.
No, that's not how it works. Whether it is bashing or not depends on the words you use, not your feelings when you use them.
Find some other way to insult Putin and DT than a slur that refers to gay sex.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)"Find some other way to insult Putin and DT than a slur that refers to gay sex." <<<<<-----*NOPE*
Use WHATEVER WORKS.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)Any true ally would make an effort to listen, and no gay people belong to you.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)Do you think you're being clever?
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)You are probably right, I would call it gay bashing if a RW person said it.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)It's sort of like someone saying "I only hit you because i love you." No one can measure or prove the feeling inside the hitter's head. But the hitting is tangible.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)every time you use WHATEVER WORKS, you are showing that closeted gay kid that standing up for yourself is something they can do too.
Holy fucking *WOW*. These are unprecedented times.
Saviolo
(3,284 posts)... who put their arm around my shoulder and said, "You're okay, man. I don't want to insult you, but THAT GUY OVER THERE IS A FAGGOT! LOLOLOL!!!"
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)to raw sewage, compare them to intestinal worms, compare them to whatever you want -- except for using anti-gay hate speech for your ends. That's not acceptable.
It's not any more acceptable than if you were using slurs comparing them to black people or to Jewish people. Or are you fine with using any group of vulnerable people for your purpose?
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)but it's making me too angry.
Saviolo
(3,284 posts)But I'm getting pretty upset about it, too. I wrote a very long essay in the "Colbert has no regrets" thread, and I feel I may have overdone it!
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)Or slurs attacking them for being Jewish?
This is no different.
Excellent post!
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)you're hurting other gay people. Especially young gay people who are still trying to figure out their place in the world. Or the children of gay people who are trying to figure out their family's place in the world.
There are a lot of other words in your arsenal. Pick some that aren't homophobic, racist, sexist, etc.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Oh...THAT'S RIGHT....a LOT of the gay community have no compunction whatsoever about any of that shit.
We will not back down. We will not relinquish *any* weapon.
words are words and if they bother them, that helps *us*.
Get ready to hear more "sand in their pussy" over this or that.
That word 'pussy' *bothers* them.
***GOOD***
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)Which is exactly what homophobic right-wingers do. And just like you, they think they're doing it for a higher cause.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)moriah
(8,311 posts)http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/11/things-allies-need-to-know/
http://urge.org/how-to-an-lgbtq-ally-without-being-a-jerk/
So far you've marginalized the viewpoint of every person who has identified as a gay male who does feel that, regardless of context, it's still an anti-gay slur. Even the VERY reasonable posts where they said it was hilarious, of course Colbert shouldn't be canned and the RW poutrage has nothing to do with supporting the LGBT community at all, but acknowledged the anti-gay nature of the slur, you've jumped over.
Are you LGBT? I normally don't ask, because I figure if you wanted me to know about your sexual orientation you'd tell me. But in this post you're seemingly saying you're an ally.
Well, take the first REAL step in being an ally. Shut up for a moment, listen to your fucking allies, consider their point of view, and don't talk down to them.
I say this in the spirit of doing, as the last link suggests, creating a safe space for my allies then shutting the fuck up myself.
RedWedge
(618 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)I think you're wasting your time using reason with this particular op however.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)I often experience the world like a closeted gay person. Not because I'm purposely closeted anymore (as i was decades ago), but I don't hang a sign around my neck and there's no way to tell by looking at me.
So people make assumptions, and they say things that they probably wouldn't say if they knew.
So I can imagine how you feel, cwydro. Unlike the OP.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)Jno_Gilmor_
(127 posts)Even Marco Rubio spoke out against what's happening.
Gothmog
(145,839 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)I thought you would "get it."
The OP's point of view is toxic to many people in the gay community, and that includes me, as a daughter. Gay slurs should never be used as a weapon against anyone, even straight loathsome people. Because it is validating the use of gay slurs when even allies use them.
RedWedge
(618 posts)I mean...
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)There are a million other words in the dictionary. Pick some.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)Oh wait, I see. You actually don't know how words work. I'm sorry.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)There are hundreds of thousands of them, even in your apparently limited vocabulary.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I'm thinking she may not be possessed of a large vocabulary.
Every post uses the same foul language and the same trite phrases.
"Get woke" indeed. Oh the irony
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)Also, calling out a supposed ally isn't fighting.
Distracting one with WEDGE issues is indeed fighting. It normalizes the coup
and they've been trying this shit since the coup.
It started with bathrooms.
Last week, it was abortion.
This week, it's Trump's Putin's penis holster of a mouth.
The enemy is Russia. Get woke.
RedWedge
(618 posts)There are none less woke than those who refuse to awaken. Why not use racial slurs against white supremacists of the GOP? Seriously though, why not? You wouldn't be using the slurs against people of color. Think of how mad it would make Republicans! WHATEVER WORKS!!1!!!!!11
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)They would absolutely flip! They would hate it even more than homophobic slurs! DO IT, LaydeeBug! Take a stand and show how no one will hamstring your speech! WHATEVER WORKS!!1!!!1!
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)There is no logical reason why it's okay to use homophobic slurs against DT/Putin and not racial or religious slurs.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)pnwmom
(109,024 posts)whether you do it, or whether RWers do it.
RedWedge
(618 posts)angry by using vivid sexual slurs, just think of what you could do with racial slurs. Or...are you less devoted to this cause than you seem to be? Are you less woke than you made it seem? Do you not realize how unbelievably angry and frustrated The Russians and their Republican supporters would be if you, LaydeeBug, used racial slurs to scold them on DU? Don't let social mores hamstring your speech, brave LaydeeBug! These words hold such power, it takes only a few pokes of a keyboard to unleash them!
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)Don't let people remove certain terms from your arsenal! Don't let people "cater their outrage to appease someone else's spite invective"! Why are you wasting time arguing with us? UNLEASH THE SLURS! Because they won't actually BE slurs, since you'll be using them against The Russians and Republicans, and because you, LaydeeBug, are using them!
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)RedWedge
(618 posts)some people feel are homophobic?
demmiblue
(36,914 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)is you.
You've stepped on it pretty badly.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)KPN
(15,677 posts)The GOP always goes low. What ever happened to the axiom "nice guys come in last".
Going high only works with fair players. This isn't fair play -- this is a war against the little people.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Going high only works with fair players. This isn't fair play -- this is a war against the little people.
KPN
(15,677 posts)for having the courage to speak the truth here in a place that seems more and more hostile to anyone who doesn't speak the official party line as expressed by established leaders. You did so in a non-confrontational way. I applaud you.
fishwax
(29,150 posts)the people I care about to collateral damage.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)demmiblue
(36,914 posts)demmiblue
(36,914 posts)Shame on you.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)I think I will take my gay ass elsewhere to discuss the issues.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Smh.
nolabear
(42,002 posts)It's dangerous. What on earth has made us so happy to throw over the principles the left certainly SHOULD support? When the going gets tough, the tough turn into left-leaning hatemongers?
It's not the DU I love.
demmiblue
(36,914 posts)We have nothing if we do not have our core values.
They are not taking my moral compass, that is for damned sure.
Saviolo
(3,284 posts)That someone felt the need to actively come out with this OP in response to (what I thought was) a rather measured and rational post where I linked to this article:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029010750
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)She went to war on your OP.
Wow.
I can only see this as a direct response to mine, which is incredibly discouraging when I felt my original was a pretty respectful request.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)Unlike the rant in response.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)I think this OP is taking DU for a ride and not to be taken seriously. It's ridiculous.
petronius
(26,613 posts)Homophobia 'for a good cause' is still homophobia, bigotry 'for a good cause' is still bigotry, and I want no part of it...
hughee99
(16,113 posts)solution. It's not "okay when we do it". We don't get a pass because "we're good people" or we "know what's best" or we're the party that supports gay rights. This language isn't going to undo anything, it's just going to unnecessarily divide us further. We don't have to remove this language from our arsenal to appease anyone, we have to remove this language from our arsenal because it's wrong.
If you can't make the case against Trump without using this sort of language, you don't understand the problem well enough.
RedWedge
(618 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)Saviolo
(3,284 posts)Trump's actually doing damage to LGBTQ communities with his new Religious Liberty EO.
I'd love to see some of the folks who really really want to be able to call Trump and Putin gay stand up for the actual LGBTQ community instead of using us as a prop, allowing us to be collateral damage, demeaning us, and dismissing us while Trump tears our communities apart:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39798989
Seems like we're getting it from both sides, and I wish our allies would stop and listen for a moment every now and than, y'know?
cwydro
(51,308 posts)is exactly who are NOT our allies.
Sigh.
Saviolo
(3,284 posts)And I didn't mean to start fighting the culture wars all over, with folks on "my side."
Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)Last edited Thu May 4, 2017, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)
if you use being gay as an insult. Period.
Allies cannot claim permission to use words that have been used as weapons against those they claim to be allies to. That is permission that is given only on an individual basis and, as an ally, is limited to using those words in the exclusive company of the individual who granted that permission.
You are not a strong supporter of the gay community when you ignore the voices of the gay community when we tell you it is unacceptable to use being gay as an insult. Period.
As for the Democratic party - please. It is just barely and recently on the right side of this issue. Remember the 2012 presidential election, when all the candidates opposed same gender marriage? Remember DOMA? Remember DADT? Remember Rick Warren?The Democratic party has a long history of standing in our way and on our toes. Maybe, in a decade or so, it will have a long enough track record to have earned a bare minimum of trust.
Unprecedented times does not give you the right to insult me by declaring that Trump and Putin are vile becasuse - like me - they are gay.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Thank you.
This thread has been appalling...and illuminating.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)on why the OP is wrong. It would have been much worse, IMHO, if all the responses were in enthusiastic, or even passive, agreement.
Even the premise is that "it works" is faulty. Is there any evidence that supports the idea that using homophobic language has changed a single person's mind about Trump? I haven't seen any.
That's not really the point, though. Even if it did change some people's minds, if you have to use homophobic language to get through to someone, you've already lost. You haven't won an ally, you've just tricked a bigot into temporarily supporting you. A week or two down the road, someone on the other side will trick them into switching back, and you will have compromised your morals and hurt or alienated a lot of people for nothing anyway.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I'll choose to look on the bright side. Many DUers did speak up against this deplorable op!
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)because it was driving me crazy.
I thought at first it was just a mistake on some people's part, but they could be reasoned with. Yeah, right.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)But I'll keep it to myself.
pnwmom
(109,024 posts)madokie
(51,076 posts)I just wanted you to know that
countryjake
(8,554 posts)With a nod to the compassion & awareness of a wise DU friend's final post.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I refuse to use homophobic, racial, gender-based or any other slurs because I care about my allies.
If an ally tells you a slur is offensive the very least you can do is STOP using it.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)I am an ally and I find the slur of your censorship offensive. Please stop doing it, because while you are fighting ME, Russia is moving in.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)No one is 'censoring' you, your allies are simply telling you that when you encourage others to use bigoted slurs you're not acting like an ally - and I agree with them.
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Saying someone is up on your dick, or that Trump's mouth is Putin's penis holster is NOT a fucking slur.
At all.
You're welcome.
PS. You *might* want to apply your little meme to the mirror.
Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)As this thread clearly demonstrates. Allies listen to those to whom they claim to be allies - not straightsplain why they have the right to use them as a battering ram, or school them to help them understand that they are misunderstanding their lived experiencea.
moriah
(8,311 posts)More and more, I am seeing precisely what McKenzie is describing people of identity privilege who are identifying as allies almost as if it is a core part of their identity.
Whats worse, I keep seeing people respond to criticism about their oppressive language or problematic humor with, But Im an ally!
For instance, I recently saw an acquaintance (who notably identifies as Straight) post a pretty problematic joke about Gay men on Twitter.
Aside from expressing my discontent in a tweet, I reached out to her in a private message to explain why I took issue with her joke.
Her response, though, was to say, Jamie, you know that Im an LGBT ally! I speak out for Gay rights all the time! This was clearly just a joke.
And therein lies the problem.
The identification of ally was so prominent in this persons mind that she couldnt even hear criticism of how her actions were out of alignment with her professed desire to be an ally!
So allies, lets talk.
... very long snip....
As a person who benefits every single day from White privilege, it is not my place to engage People of Color in a discussion about what is or is not racist. Thats not solidarity.
When we have identity privilege, it's not acting in solidarity to dominate the narrative or to tell people who we claim to be allies with how to feel. We listen. We create safe spaces so our allies can be heard. We tell attempted "allies" when they aren't acting in solidarity. Then we back up and let the people with life experience discuss what is and isn't bigoted speech.
Ms. Toad
(34,126 posts)beaglelover
(3,497 posts)loyalsister
(13,390 posts)For select white people maybe. It didn't work out so well for a lot of people. Democratic leadership recognized it and admitted to being wrong.
Maybe it's better to not have to apologize later?
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)loyalsister
(13,390 posts)It's a reasonable analogy. If more Dems had been okay with it, George (segregation now, segregation forever) Wallace might have been president. Whether he actually believed that or was courting the KKK so that they would support a Democrat has been debated and I doubt anyone knows for sure. Regardless, when he exploited racism in order to win, he participated in it.