Would you marry a Scientologist?

[banned from Kos]

serious question.

[seabeyond]

1. god

no

[derby378]

2. Not a chance

If it was a Freezone Scientologist, I still wouldn't marry her, but I would appreciate her spunk in turning squirrel.

Full disclosure: I was married to a staunch atheist.

[WillowTree]

3. Not a chance.

Then again, I don't really see myself getting married again under almost any circumstances.

[siligut]

4. Never marry any cult member!

If you really think you are in love, help that person to get out. If you are not in love, no matter what you think you will get from the marriage, the cult will take so much more.

[banned from Kos]

5. Is Seventh Day Adventist a cult?

I don't know.

[derby378]

9. Branch Davidians, yes. Mainstream Adventists, no.

Adventists are a little "different," but then again, so are Quakers, Moravians, and Hutterites.

[demosincebirth]

10. I've heard it called a cult, but I really don't know.

[kestrel91316]

33. Baptists and Pentacostalists and extreme fundies call SDAs a cult.

Mainstream Protestants and Catholics consider them just another legitimate Christian denomination. As do I.

[demosincebirth]

61. Christian fundamentalists can, very loosely, be called cults

[kestrel91316]

79. Indeed.

[LuckyLib]

206. And some of us, raised Catholic, believe that too is a cult. A huge, entrenched

extremely wealthy, very powerful group that meets many cult criteria.

[Hugabear]

86. Many Pentecostal churches can be considered cults

Especially the more extreme ones

[Nevernose]

118. I'm an atheist married to a SDA.

No problems, except she gets a little sensitive sometimes around my family's private attitudes towards the religious, which I totally sympathize with. Nice people generally, though a few members veer towards the cultish. Also many are big on the apocalypse.

[demwing]

157. thank you

for your voice of reason.

My comments down thread are not directed against atheism, but against any people who engage in bigotry, whatever they call it.

[Nevernose]

212. It's an odd thing, really

I suspect that my private thoughts are far more dismissive of her beliefs than her beliefs are of mine. However, I have a couple of shelves of atheist literature that she insists be removed when her family or friends come over, which I used to comply with (I believe this is one of the reasons one sees so many atheists sympathize with gays: we know what it's like to be in the closet). I am certainly not allowed to bring it up, and must fall back on my Southern Baptist upbringing in all matters of religion.

In short, my family thinks her religion is a silly thing, but do not think less of her and would never mention it to her face. Her friends and family would cause a scene and treat us as if we had the plague.

I'm kind of used to the persecution by this point. It was held against me in the custody trial for my daughter (which I won), investigated at my work, and I've lost friends and family over it. I cannot even fathom this happening to my wife simply because she chooses to go to church on Saturday instead of Sunday. I think many atheists feel this way. I suspect that many atheists who come across as total assholes on the Internet are far more tolerant in real life, Christians sometimes less so, and that the world would be a much better place if we cared less about other people's spirituality (or lack thereof).

Lucky for me, my wife is the best woman I have ever met. Kind, thoughtful, generous, beautiful, sexy, and BRILLIANT -- I really hit the jackpot with this one. Even if she does believe in talking snakes.

[Major Nikon]

149. Some who have studied them certainly think so

http://www.amazon.com/The-Four-Major-Cults-Seventh-day/dp/0802804454

The definition of cult is not clear and you can easily find it defined very broadly or narrowly depending on whom you're talking about. Even if the SDA is a cult, it's certainly not on the level of some cults, and they have been known to black ball SDA sects that get too cult-like. The Branch Davidians are an excellent example of this.

[JackRiddler]

83. What's the difference between a cult and a "world religion"?

One or two thousand years?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. You've obviously never met a cult member

They have a single charismatic leader whom they obey absolutely and from whom they are expected to accept physical, mental, and sexual abuse.

If you try to argue with them, they repeat the party line over and over, sometimes at great length, as if they are playing back a recording.

They avoid all sources of information that conflict with what their leader says and are even afraid to see, read, or hear anything that is in conflict with their cult's teachings.

Often they are fed a vitamin-deficient diet to weaken them both physically and mentally.

Often they are forced to go out into public places and beg money and are punished if they come back with too little.

They avoid contact with people from their former life, including family members, as well as with people who have left the cult. They are taught that everyone outside their group is either evil or deceived.

Some fundamentalist Christian groups are cults, but cults can be based on any religious tradition. One of my Japanese friends joined a cult VERY loosely based on Buddhism, and I couldn't talk to her because the tape would start playing. Fortunately, she now practices a more mainstream variety of Buddhism.

Cults are not necessarily religious. Look at North Korea.

[JackRiddler]

122. Scientology does not meet all the criteria you mention.

I despise this particular outfit, but Scientologists I've known haven't met all of the behavioral criteria you mention.

But I'm willing to agree with you that some groups within given religious traditions are more fanatical, insular, likely to insistently proselytize, filled with reflexive talking points, and hostile to outside influences than others. The greatest number of such people I've met, however, call themselves some variety of Christian.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

139. And in Japan, they'd be some variety of Buddhist

[cecilfirefox]

182. Namyohorengekyo!!!

[Art_from_Ark]

205. That's a Japanese Buddhist chant

I never head of a Japanese cult by that name.

I think Lydia might have been referring to the Soka Gakkai.

[arikara]

210. A friend and I had a run-in with Scientologists 30 years ago

they tried to hook us in with some sort of a personality quiz, being in our early 20's, from small town northern Canada we thought it would be interesting. There was at least a dozen or more other people in the group, after the test was done they stuck us all in a room and left us to simmer. We were on vacation in LA and wanted to get out of there so we started walking out and the guy at the desk barked at us to get back into the room and wait with everyone else. He kind of scared us so we slunk back in to the room like we'd done something wrong. Then when his back was turned we snuck out the door like a pair of thieves. Everybody else laughed but nobody else left. We realized later the test was full of questions indicating how easily led you were and I've since heard lots of stories about how they coerce, frighten and blackmail people, and they don't like to let go of people once they have their talons sunk in. In my view, that's a cult.

[blueamy66]

165. whew

so glad my RC religion is not a cult

[JackRiddler]

227. Maybe it's you who hasn't met an early Christian idol-smasher?

It's true enough that most Christians nowadays don't keep up the fervor of the many, many Inquisitions. But doesn't that support the equation, cult + 2000 years = world religion.

[siligut]

100. The amount of time, energy and brain matter they require a member to give.

Cults take over many aspects of a member's life and require sacrifice in terms of time, money and energy. Ultimately, the cult's goal takes precedence over the individual's.

All organizations have concentric circles of power, however with cults, the outer circle is clueless as to what the inner circle is really doing.

Cults claim secret knowledge and that they are the only source for it and then demonize outsiders.

"Knowledge" and rules come down to the outer circles as wisdom and are not to be questioned.

Sexual and child abuse is common in cults too, as the secretive nature protects predators.

And yes, time does have a way of grinding down and opening up what may have started out as a cult.

[NYC Liberal]

101. I would say my personal idea of a cult is a group that makes is extremely difficult to leave

without being subject to continued threats, harassment, and perhaps even actual violence.

[Prophet 451]

114. Whether they have any political power

Faiths with power are religions. Faiths without it are cults.

[HereSince1628]

6. Well, maybe...is she a rich actress that jumps on sofas?

[demosincebirth]

7. It depends.

[PDJane]

8. Not a chance.

Nor a seventh-day adventist, nor a Jehovah's witness, nor a Hare Krishna, nor any other kind of extremist, thank you. Just No.

Of course, I'm old enough and crotchety enough that the whole point is moot, anyway.

[banned from Kos]

11. But if it were "Muslim" instead would the Political Correctness Doctrine

go into effect?

[PDJane]

15. Depends. If it were an islamist, nothing would bring the pc into play.

An average muslim? Maybe, maybe not.

[banned from Kos]

25. I am an atheist but I rank religious beliefs in terms of how offensive they are.

Least offensive? Episcopalian, Bhuddist, Unitarian, and so (most liberal)

Most offensive? Islam and Southern Baptist (least liberal)

Scientology is not on my scale. This little exercise was simply a cultural experiment.

[Arkana]

19. No--no one has ever advocated marrying Taliban hardliners.

[fujiyama]

23. Kinda curious

How is a Hare Krishna an extremist of any kind? They're kind of annoying, grant you, but extreme? Hardly.

They're certainly less extreme than many "mainstream" Christians (Southern Baptists are extreme and so are many Catholic churches) and Muslims (of course Islam doesn't mean peace, it means submission so in most cases you better convert to his/her religion if you're marrying them)...

[demwing]

59. +100

the OP is speaking out of ignorance

[Moonwalk]

108. Only, "hardly" if you you're not part of the Krishnas...

I know someone whose parents were Krishnas--full on Cult members. Her childhood included all kinds of mental, emotional and sexual abuse, and she was almost sold in marriage to another cult member for some cows. This happened back in the U.S, back in the 80's.

Eventually she escaped, and with great difficulty--as no one had taught her how to live in the world outside the cult--made a life for herself. She and some other adults who were raised in the Krishna cult sued and won a settlement for all that abuse. But it took years, and it doesn't erase the damage that was done to her--or to others who were part of the cult and/or raised in it. So, "Hardly" extreme? Only from the outside looking in. From the inside, it's very extreme.

[demwing]

193. Oh I knew a guy, who knew a guy...

well I was that guy, and I know better.

I spent a few years studying with the Krishnas, lived in temples in Hawaii, Los Angeles, and Berkeley.

The Krishnas came up in the late 60's, in very alternative communities (San Francisco, Lower East side NY), and attracted people of all stripes. Some crazy fuckers joined temples, but they were crazy fuckers before they came, and when they were discovered, they were crazy fuckers that got kicked out, and their victims were compensated and protected.

The VAST majority of people who became Krishnas were peaceful, college educated, and searching for a philosophical alternative to capitalism. The founder preached a sort of spiritual socialism, and though mainstream religion would have wanted you to think they were cultists, the truth is that Vaisnavism (a sect of Hinduism that birthed the Hare Krishnas) is a legit religion thousands of years old, does not coerce or abuse anyone (unless you believe ALL religion is abuse - I'm not having that argument), and has many things to offer spiritually minded progressives.

Unfortunately, I didn't find everything I was looking for there, so I moved on. No one stopped me, no one threatened me. Stories of being sold for cows are nonsense, and if it ever did happen, it was because of crazy assholes who would have been crazy no matter where they ended up. If anything, being a Krishna mellowed those fuckers out. Their actions were certainly never a part of the religion. I know, because I lived it.

[Moonwalk]

196. I didn't say I knew a guy who knew a guy...

I know this woman. She was raised by the Krishnas. You want to argue with her that her childhood was blissful and she wasn't sexually abused? You want to argue with her that, at age twelve, she wasn't nearly sold into a marriage with a man three times her age? You want to tell her that the people in charge didn't say this was all right, even sanctioned by the religion? Go ahead. Tell her how wonderful your experience was and how the Krishnas could never have allowed that to happen.

The facts are the facts. FACTS that won that settlement not just for her but for several adults who were children and trapped in the Krishna cult and had similar, if not worse, experiences. That you had a nice old time doesn't erase those facts. And my argument is that cult thinking is cult thinking--creating these exact results. It's dangerous no matter how agreeable the religious or philosophical teaching. Just because they're socialist and such in thought and teachings doesn't mean they're not subject to cult thinking and cult dangers.

Which was the question asked above--were the Krishnas less likely than others to be extreme? Answer--obviously not. And no after how nice a time you had, you can't argue against facts proving otherwise.

[demwing]

198. Yeah I think the "being sold into marriage" thing was nonsense

As far as her being abused, I say that those who abused her were fucking assholes, and would have been the same fucking assholes where ever they ended up.

I also say you paint with broad brush strokes. There are thousands of people that are Krishnas, who have never experienced any of what that poor woman experienced, but you're not here to weigh the truth in balance, you're here to lay down this extremely negative example and act as if it were symptomatic of an entire movement.

Yeah, I say that's nonsense.

[fujiyama]

207. I did a bit more reading and

it looks like there were allegations of sexual abuse at their boarding schools in both the US and India and there was even a Supreme Court case accusing them of "brainwashing" a minor. So, I certainly don't doubt your friend's experience. The story you mentioned is similar to the girl in this interview (Anya): http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/19/lol.02.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Krishnas#Issues_within_the_society

The ISKON movement is interesting, because the temples draw mainstream Hindus, completely unaware of the abuse - and in terms of Hindu "movements", it's the only one I can think of that actually goes out of its way to gain followers (most Hindus would not)... Usually as far as most are concerned, the Krishnas sing, dance, and serve a free vegetarian meal.

I was unaware of the abuse allegations until now but the good thing is the boarding schools have been shut down and they have compensated those that were abused. It sounds like they also apologized to the victims and admitted mistakes.

It doesn't necessarily surprise me that abuse would occur in any organization that has boarding schools where there is little if any screening for those responsible for the children. It also sounds like many of these children's parents left to go begging or prosthelytizing. Either way, it doesn't make up for the abuse these children received. Pretty appalling. And like with what happened in the CC, I'm skeptical of the abusers ever really were brought to justice.

[demwing]

58. Wow

that's quite extreme of you

[GarroHorus]

12. No n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. Hell, no.

Anybody who would take that tripe seriously is off my list (even though at my age my standards are necessarily pretty low).

[dipsydoodle]

14. Maybe not a good idea

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2168586/Mystery-Scientology-leaders-missing-wife-David-Miscaviges-ex-seen-2007.html

[YellowRubberDuckie]

95. This is exactly why Katie Holmes is having her divorce proceedings opened to the public.

And they say that Scientology is tailing her since she kicked them all out of her life and filed for divorce.

[pnwmom]

128. The first hearing will be in NYC on July 17. It's an emergency hearing to determine

temporary custody.

[Selatius]

213. No. I will not marry an extremist of any religious stripe. I have no room for fundamentalism. nt

[Iggo]

16. Fucks no.

[Arkana]

17. No.

Then again, I wouldn't marry a fundamentalist of any stripe who would spend their entire lives trying to convert me.

[lunatica]

46. That's what I feel too

Religious fundamentalists are like the plague to me. I stay as far away from them as I can.

[teddy51]

18. Hell No! Tom Cruise is one crazy F***er. Wonder why Katie married him in the first place?

[vaberella]

88. Money, recognition, super celebrity status...

Or maybe, in some twisted way she was IN LOVE? But I find the latter laughable.

[LiberalEsto]

144. dare I say ignorance/innocence?

Maybe she didn't have a clue about how fucked up Scientology really is.

[vaberella]

203. Maybe...I'd do some homework on my future husband before marriage.

Especially things like that, which is public knowledge.

[Ruby the Liberal]

20. Not on a bet.

[a la izquierda]

21. Yes...

several good friends of mine are Scientologists. I worked for Scientologists for years when I lived in California. They never tried to "convert" me (and I can't say the same for Christians and Mormons). I had amazing health and dental benefits and they supported my decision to go back to school by working with my schedule and allowing me to keep my benefits even though I fell a few hours short of full time. They didn't care about my religious beliefs.

Frankly, I think the Scientology bashing on here is a little ridiculous. Yes, it's a weird religion. All religions were "weird" when they first emerged from the mists of time. Really? A dude rose from the dead? After being born of a virgin mother? Goddesses springing from the brows of their fathers?
Seriously.

[banned from Kos]

28. I agree with you. I have never been offended by a Scientologist.

Other religions offend me often.

Especially Southern Baptist (Georgia native speaking).

[YellowRubberDuckie]

96. I have been...

...when they starved people to death or killed them.

[longship]

31. James Randi: I met L Ron Hubbard twice. Both times he was drunk.

Face the music. Scientology is an evil science fiction cult. They are worse than the Raelians, who at least openly confessed that they claimed to have cloned a human solely for the publicity.

I recommend that you take a visit to Operation Clambake before you attempt to defend that evil Scientology cult here.

Other posts here give evidence.

Bye.

[Historic NY]

50. Besides the how can dead guy still write books.

[a la izquierda]

51. I've visited Operation Clambake a bunch of times...

I think their religion is silly. But I also think Christianity- as interpreted by man- is pretty silly too.
I don't demonize people. Of any kind. One's religious belief is their own damned business. I don't involve myself in the affairs of others.

[LynneSin]

145. Hubbard joked he could create a religion

Who would have thought people would actually buy into it.

Somewhere in the afterlife Hubbard is laughing his ass off the people that buy into 'Scientology'

[OffWithTheirHeads]

216. So are his heirs. What a cash cow stupid people are.

I sometimes sit up at night after too many Martinis thinking I could pull off a stunt like this and get really rich.

Then i sober up and realize that something is seriouslly fucked up in our society that so many people feel so lost that they buy this crap. I'm too much of a bleeding heart to actually exploit that but it would be so easy.

[hifiguy]

171. Scientology was the result of a bar bet

made by Elron with two other science fiction writers, Robert Heinlein and, IIRC, Clark Ashton Smith, in the 1940s. Hubbard bet the other two that he could invent a successful "religion" from scratch.

The story was told in my presence by Gordon R. Dickson, a sci-fi writer who was a good friend of Heinlein's. Dickson got the story straight from Heinlein himself.

[LyndaG]

42. Well put

There are a couple of Scientologists in my family and they are completely harmless - they don't even talk about it, unless i bring it up. Sure, there are extremeists in every religion, and they usually get all the press.

In an old "All In the family" rerun, Archie said faith means believing in things nobody in their right mind would believe in. True with all religions.

[klook]

65. I once had a friend who had briefly joined Scientology when she was really young.

She went through the initial indoctrination where they hook you up to that gizmo to measure your skin's electrical response as they're yelling at you, and was in it for a few weeks before she decided it was a fucked-up, mean cult.

After she withdrew, Scientology representatives started calling her to find out why she left, try to talk her back into returning, etc. The calls became more frequent, more insistent, finally vaguely threatening. Eventually they sent her a box of dead flowers. It was really chilling, she said. She contacted them and told them she was talking to a lawyer and would call the police if they kept it up -- fortunately for her that was the end of it.

Just imagine what they put people through who try to drop out when they've been a member of the "Church" of Scientology for years.

There are many documented cases of abusive behavior by Scientology officials toward ex-members of Scientology. Yes, other religions are bogus, but only a sick cult persecutes ex-members like that.

So would I marry somebody who's a part of that? Uh, no.

[vaberella]

85. Although overall I agree with you. I just think ALL religions are WEIRD...

No...all the people who believe in these things are weird. The religion itself is man-made.

[GCP]

126. I'm sure the Nazis had pretty good medical and dental coverage too

Just because you got treated nicely by them as an employee doesn't mean they're not a cult depending on brain-washing and getting as much money as possible from their converts.

[a la izquierda]

170. Nevermind. Not worth the potential adjudication

[pnwmom]

129. The Scientologist I know was with them for thirty years, working in Sea Org

for incredibly low pay. They kicked her out in her late 70's, with no pension or Social Security, because she was too old to work for them anymore.

Fortunately, the family she had abandoned decades earlier took her back in.

[LeftyMom]

22. I don't think I could marry anybody who was a serious adherent of any religion.

Even if it was just silly and not batcrap crazy.

[GoCubsGo]

43. That's pretty much how I feel, too.

Granted, I feel more or less the same about marriage as I do religion. Thanks, but no thanks.

[Lizzie Poppet]

71. Likewise.

I don't despise people who believe in the supernatural (be it gods, fairies, or what-have-you), nor do I claim to be able to prove my rationalist, atheistic beliefs are certainly true. But I just couldn't see myself forming a lifetime bond with someone who believed in that sort of thing...

[Little Star]

24. I would slit my wrists before I'd marry a Scientologist or....

any other cult type religious person. I believe you would have to be one slice short of a full loaf to marry anyone like that.

[StopTheNeoCons]

26. This /\..nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. Wouild she wear the traditional white straight jacket at the wedding?

Or, settle for the trendy space suit?

[stopbush]

29. I wouldn't marry a practicing religionist of any stripe.

People who are convinced that make believe is real are going to bite your very real relationship in the ass at some point.

[notadmblnd]

30. No, but to be fair, I'm not going to marry anyone that practices a religion

In fact, I'm probably not ever going to get married again. If I do, I lose my health care and my husband's (dead) pension benefits.

[kestrel91316]

32. I'd marry a fundie Baptist or Pentecostal before I'd marry a Scientologist.

[frogmarch]

34. hahaha!

No.

[darkangel218]

35. I would, if he was rich :)

I heard most of them are. Now on a serious note, hell no!!

[vi5]

36. I couldn't marry anyone devoutly religious.....

I'm an atheist. I come from a religious family. It's just too fundamental an element of one's person as far as I'm concerned. I also couldn't marry a Republican. What I love about my wife is how she sees the world, how she sees other people, what she sees as her purpose here, why she does the things she does, what she looks for in the people she surrounds herself. Religion and politics plays into all of that and if she were anything other than a liberal atheist I'd have a hard time jiving with it on a lifetime basis, as I would hope she would with me if she were sincere in her religious or political beliefs that were different than mine.

I also don't have any problem being alone, so I also couldn't fathom marrying someone who I wasn't 90-100% compatible with.

To be clear, I could marry someone who believed in god, and who was perhaps still somewhat religious as long as they were not devout.

[Auntie Bush]

37. Hell no! I wouldn't even marry a Republican. Hate their selfish hateful values

[darkangel218]

38. Im still not sure what they believe in

Even though I've googled it in the past. Some weird alien stuff I think.

[darkangel218]

39. Can anyone explain scientology in a few words??

[LeftyMom]

81. All of your emotional difficulties are caused by being haunted by space ghosts. For a fee, they will

remove them, which gives you magic powers.

[darkangel218]

89. Are you being serious?

[LeftyMom]

91. Could I possibly make up something that crazy?

[darkangel218]

93. I guess not. Oh wow lol! thanks for enlighting me :)

[Posteritatis]

103. She really is. At its core, that's the belief system.

Once you start branching out from the core it gets even more ridiculous - billion-year contracts, the hierarchies of secret knowledge, the idea of Suppressive Persons, Hubbard turning his hatred for psychology into COS doctrine, etc.

[Egalitarian Thug]

180. Not only serious, but very abbreviated. The more you know, the crazier it gets. Just like Mormonism.

[LiberalEsto]

147. I wonder where personal responsibility comes into this scenario?

Back in 1973, I visited a high school friend who had joined the Unification Church (Moonies). This was before I'd heard almost anything about them.

They pounced on me and tried their hardest to rope me into their bizarre cult. One of the many nonsensical things they told me was that you aren't responsible for any wrong you might have done -- that a bad angel hovers over one of your shoulders and makes you do bad things. A good angel supposedly hovers over the other shoulder, etc.

I started arguing about taking personal responsibility for wrongdoing, and not trying to evade responsibility with mythical scapegoats. I was able to get away from them, and a few weeks later, one of them called to tell me that my argument persuaded him to leave the Moonies. Unfortunately my friend, who was purposely kept away from me, stayed in the cult and I believe is a member to this day.

[Dash87]

173. Hey! That's "OT 3" (or whatever) privileged information! :-)

L. Ron Hubbard was a hack, and Dianetics is nothing more than a Science Fiction novel - and not a very good one at that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was also a world class scumbag - he spent his last days running from the FBI for something like tax evasion. I don't know the whole story.

South Park also had a good, "this is what Scientology actually believes" segment that the Scientologists whined profusely about.

[hifiguy]

197. That is it in a nutshell.

Scientologists really and truly believe this buncombe.

[Buns_of_Fire]

40. Damn glasses. I thought it read "seismologist" at first.

I was going to decline, since spouses of seismologists usually wind up eaten by an earthquake somewhere before the final credits.

But then, I think spouses of Scientologists often suffer the same fate, so I guess the answer is still no.

[dimbear]

72. To be fair to Scientology, should be eaten by a volcano.

Tradition.

[Buns_of_Fire]

150. That was my first instinct, but

then I thought that "well, that might be a vulcanologist, and totally screw things up within the context, but I've gone this far so I'll just leave it at that and take my lumps."

"Eaten by a volcano" does make more sense, though. So now I'll just take my leave of the thread and not muck it up any further. (Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes... )

[csziggy]

41. I wouldn't marry ANYONE who believes in an imaginary sky being

One thing I loved about my husband before we married is that he did not believe in any supreme being while being entirely tolerant of other's beliefs. In fact, one of his stories is about attending church with a high school girl friend. When the minister realized he was not a believer, he made an appointment for my husband to meet with him later. My husband went and got into an argument about whether a god existed.

The minister was losing the argument but didn't realize it until my husband's mother arrived to pick him up. The minister, knowing that his mother was active in the Unitarian church, tried to enlist her help in convincing my husband into believing in a god. She told the minister that my husband had made up his mind after long consideration and nothing she or the minister could say would change his opinion.

My husband has softened a little - he now describes himself as agnostic rather than atheist but he still does not believe in a supreme being. He's just less willing to take an absolute stand on the subject.

[demwing]

60. Just curious - what do you consider "entirely tolerant of other's beliefs"?

Does it include using terms like "imaginary sky being" ?

[csziggy]

70. He would never use that term

I do because I am not as good a person as my husband is.

[LadyHawkAZ]

44. Not just no but HELL NAW!

Even if I were interested in getting married again, it wouldn't be to a believer in woo. Any woo.

[lunatica]

45. No

[RebelOne]

47. No way. n/t

[BOG PERSON]

48. maybe if i thought it would help my career?

AND if i had a career in show business?

[Swamp Lover]

49. I don't know much about them. Do they believe wives should be submissive?

I'm sort of tired of making my own sandwiches.

[FrodosPet]

124. They are a VERY abusive and destructive religion

To learn some more about why SO MANY people are upset by them, check out the following

Inside the Church of Scientology: The Truth Rundown & follow-up reports | Tampa Bay Times
- http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/

Operation Clambake
- http://www.xenu.net

WikiLeaks - Scientology
- http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Scientology

[Tikki]

52. No and there is no chance a scientologist would marry me...

I am so totally not their type.



Tikki

[Lionessa]

53. I would not marry anyone who practiced or intended on practicing any type of religion.

There all the same to this atheist, ... full of bs not at all appropriate for the day and age we live in.

[Tom Ripley]

54. No. I don't even like science fiction as entertainment; I'm certainly not going to accept it as...

enlightenment

[geek_sabre]

55. No.

Scientology's Child Labor Camp (one of them, at least):

[link:http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/lifestyle/article/-/12905379/Australia-s-child-labour-camp/
http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/lifestyle/article/-/12905379/Australia-s-child-labour-camp/
http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/lifestyle/article/-/12905379/Australia-s-child-labour-camp/|

[demwing]

56. Yes

If I was in love

[piratefish08]

57. did alien intelligence play a part in the evolution of humans or were they zapped into creation?

so one idea is crazy, the other plausible.

you decide which is which. i can't.

[ohgeewhiz]

62. Marrying someone that believes in a supernatural being

is off my list of possible mates.

At least until their god comes to me and tells me this is my only chance.

As for Scientology, what a pity this cult got into Tom's brain before he could find peace within himself.

[demwing]

64. why is it a pity?

he's healthy, financially successful, and apparently very happy. As far as multiple marriages, his last as long as many other celebrities. Longer even.

Who are any of us to judge?

[DJ13]

63. It depends

How much can you make being a beard for 5 years?

[Warren Stupidity]

66. Only if I had a fair shot at 10s of millions after the divorce.

[etherealtruth]

67. Sure ... it would obviously depend on the person.

I was raised RC and eventually married a Muslim. Prior to marriage I lived with a Pentecostal (yeah I know, he kinda had to step away from the insanity in order to live with me ... it was weird).

It depends on the person and the ability for each of us to respect each other.

I fall somewhere between Agnostic and Atheist

[blue neen]

68. Absolutely not.

It's important for my partner in life to have the same basic philosophies. We don't have to share the same opinions about everything, but philosophy about life must be compatible.

[Initech]

69. Hell no! Scientology is one organization you do not want to fuck with.

[slackmaster]

224. It's OK to fuck with them as long as you don't let them know where you live

They might put e-meters on your vegetable garden plants when you are away at work.

[Honeycombe8]

73. Ni, I would not marry a crazy person. nt

[Motown_Johnny]

74. It depends on her income and the pre-nup

But sure, the possibility exists.

[demwing]

76. The open, raw bias displayed in this thread

causes me to question whether Democrats really are more more empathetic and tolerant, and embrace diversity more than our political opponents--or if we just package our prejudices in prettier boxes.

Maybe I'm wrong, and inclusiveness is not what separates us from our rivals. Maybe prejudice is common to all humans, and we just manage it differently by focusing it differently.

[waddirum]

77. of course prejudice is common to all humans

I'm pretty damn empathetic and tolerant of most people. But that does not mean that I accept batshitcrazy belief systems or the people who espouse them.

From everything I've read, Scientology is a dangerous cult which mistreats it members in horrific ways. There's plenty of stories from x-members that make mine spine shiver.

[LadyHawkAZ]

78. It could just be

that some prefer to marry a person who shares their outlook, rather than a person who holds views they consider crazy and/or harmful.

I think you might be overthinking this a little.

[LeftyMom]

82. I didn't know we were supposed to tolerate scams that exploit the vulnerable.

I must have missed that page in the handbook.

[vaberella]

87. I'm Haitian-American and would sooner die than marry another Haitian.

Does that make me prejudice? Keeping in mind that I am a super proud Haitian person. I think most people have to see that many times it may not be prejudice and a bit deeper why people may avoid some groups of people.

[RedCappedBandit]

94. I think one can be tolerant of a person, without wanting to marry said person.

[Posteritatis]

102. I'm very comfortable not feeling inclusive towards Scientologists. (nt)

[LAGC]

104. We're talking about marriage here, not inviting someone over for dinner.

[hollysmom]

115. I don't think it is prejudice, people have different life experiences

I knew 2 people who were involved with Scientology - one flirted with it by going to an audit, but decided against it and was harassed until she literally had to move to another state.
The other person was a young girl who had very little in earnings, joined scientology and told me about the magic powers she would have when she ascended to another level - i found her choice of words odd 0 like she told me she could break my leg if she were tuned into the power. I have no idea why she would want to break the leg of a neighbor who was feeding her for free and basically listening instead of talking. Anyway this young girl was spending what little money she had for very expensive Scientology courses, which is how they make the big bucks, The charge the little people a lot of money, Now super stars probably get all goodie goodie audits and lots of free stuff.

I think the life experiences of our friends can count as why we might not like something without being bias.

[Prophet 451]

117. Prejudice IS inherent to all humans

It is inherent both for humans to divide themselves into groups and to favour their ingroup (the one they're part of) and discriminate against their outgroup (everyone else). This is called Social Identity Theory, it's a fairly important part of social psychology and it's been confirmed in numerous studies (although the degree of favour/discrimination varies between cultures).

The difference is that liberals generally (not always but generally) try and overcome that impulse. And it can be overcome. The more familiar we become with people outside our ingroup, the more types of people we learn to incorporate into our ingroup.

[Capt. Obvious]

131. There's a special place for you

on Xenu's spaceship

[LanternWaste]

142. I imagine tolerance is indeed, alien to many people...

I imagine tolerance is indeed, alien to many people...

[4th law of robotics]

153. I think it's ok to judge people based on their beliefs

that's something you choose.

And in this case it is a sign of insanity.

Judging people on their skin color, gender, sexual orientation etc: no, not cool.

Judging them by how they act, what they say, their professed belief system: totally ok.

[demwing]

155. Is there an approved list of beliefs

that you could make available, so that we all comply?

[4th law of robotics]

159. You can pick your own

Frankly I don't care what you do. Marry a dozen scientologists if you like.

But if I'm tying myself legally to someone I would like to make sure they aren't insane.

Surely you can't object to other people having standards?

/and throw in with that any kind of deep seated irrational behavior that affects most aspect of their lives. Like say being a racist or sexist or paranoid or . . .

[demwing]

162. "Surely you can't object to other people having standards? "

not in the slightest, and if you don't feel comfortable around a person of faith, avoid them.

But your lack of interest in, or respect for another person's beliefs (not actions), doesn't translate into an excuse to insult people.

[4th law of robotics]

166. Not "of faith" of "this faith"

no sane person can argue that scientology is anything other than a scam.

Other religions *may* have been. But scientology *must* be because we were able to watch it develop from nothing by an admitted scam artist.


The origins of many religions are lost to antiquity. They may very well be just as bad in their beginnings, but we don't know.

We absolutely do know about the origins of scientology. That's why it is not fair to compare them to every mainstream religion: with Christianity, Judiasm, Islam, Hinduism, etc there's a kernel of doubt possible: they may be legit.

With scientology even that kernel doesn't exist.

[demwing]

169. Let me set something straight

I don't find anything interesting about Scientology, either intellectually or spiritually. My own personal belief is that it's a self-help process that works for people who have the money to spend toward it, and who are attracted to the outward trappings of the group.

That's also the way I feel about every religion I've encountered, sans the financial dictate (some religions welcome the rich and poor alike), so I'm not interested in proselytizing.

My issue comes when people who believe in god, regardless of their religion, are ridiculed and insulted. There just isn't any reason for it, especially here on DU.

I don't care what you believe, I care about how you act. Why should I be insulted for what I believe? Let me be judged by my actions, not my thoughts.

[4th law of robotics]

172. Scientologists don't believe in God

they believe in aliens.

[LanternWaste]

176. And no sane person would ever believer aliens exist...

And no sane person would ever believer aliens exist...

[4th law of robotics]

184. No sane person would fervently believe

that aliens existed, then used soul catchers to trap our thetans on earth to punish other aliens which then infected primitive humans which then led to all our problems today.

Especially if it was being told to them by a child molester who was clearly just making it up on the spot and who joked about inventing a religion as a scam.

[demwing]

177. Good for them

If that floats their boat.

I'm more concerned with their positions on civil rights.

[4th law of robotics]

185. And the question wasn't "what floats their boat"

it was "would you marry one".

If they are happy being crazy I won't prevent them from doing so.

But I also won't participate.

[demwing]

189. I'm not asking you to participate

I'm asking DUers to stop insulting other DUers based on religious belief systems

[4th law of robotics]

204. Which DUers were insulted?

Hmmm . . . .?

/by what I said, not by your derailment in to making this about all religion rather than just crazy ones.

[Dash87]

174. Sorry that you see it as prejudice. I see it as feeling sorry for those caught in a pyramid scheme

and cult. I feel sorry b/c cults prey on people who need guidance in life, feed them bull crap about how they have all the answers, and then steal all of their money.

[demwing]

199. And I agree with every thing you just wrote

generally because it's all true, but particularly because you said so with out insulting any DUers in the process,

thank you

[Egalitarian Thug]

187. Yes, you are wrong. You are free to believe any stories you like, but don't insist that others

respect your delusions. The goal of every religion is global submission to the mythology of choice (and the hierarchy that benefits from it) and this necessitates intolerance for all other mythologies.

No organization, the Democratic Party included, can accommodate diametrically opposed principles within itself for long. Balkanization is the inevitable outcome when one tries. America already has a religious political party and they are expending all their energies trying to bring about a national apocalypse for all of us to enjoy.

[FrodosPet]

214. I don't consider myself prejudiced against Scientology

I judge them based on my study of an extremely large set of well documented facts.

Inside the Church of Scientology: The Truth Rundown & follow-up reports
http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/

WikiLeaks Category:Scientology
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Category:Scientology

Operation Clambake
http://www.xenu.net

And this is just a start.

[emilyg]

80. No.

[vaberella]

84. I would not marry anyone who considers themselves religious and adheres to one belief system.

So a scientologist? No...that's a freak to me. That's like marrying a Hare Krishna.

[LynnTTT]

90. No.but

I couldn't marry anyone religious.... or a Republican .. But that's just me.

[RedCappedBandit]

92. I wouldn't marry anyone who believes fiction is real.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

98. We wouldn't even get through the first date

[PotatoChip]

99. No. Absolutely not.

Differences in both politics and religion are huge deal breakers for me.

[LiberalFighter]

105. Not in a million years.

Or born agains or anyone that wants to impose their belief on me.

[riverbendviewgal]

106. no I would not.

I have a strong intuition about people. When my husband I first arrived in Toronto in the 60s there was a Scientology storefront and people outside of it would try to talk us into going in. I stepped away from them feeling a morbid feeling...almost like entrapment.

Before I knew he was a Scientologist I had felt a strong dislike of Tom Cruise. The way I can describe it is I felt he was "ickey".

[flvegan]

109. How hot, rich and open to threeways with other women is she?

I could deal with a belief system I didn't agree with if all the other pieces were in place.

A new Ferrari every couple years goes a long way with me forgetting about Zenu or whatever the name is.

[treestar]

110. NO

And I'm in no position to be picky.

But Scientology is over the top for me.

I'd marry someone of any other religion if I loved that person and they loved me, would not be able to be picky about that. So it might be hard. But Scientology is just too weird.

Mormon, OK. Muslim OK. But not Scientology.

[Digit]

111. Hell no, I was tangled up with them over 30 years ago n/t

[Prophet 451]

112. I really don't know

I think everyone's religion looks batshit from the outside. Sure, Scientology seems ridiculous to me but is it objectively any sillier than talking snakes or magic underwear or worshipping the original rebel (that last one is my own faith)? Not objectively. I'm a Luciferian Satanist, I worship the devil (no, it's not what one would think) but I was once deeply in love with a conservative Christian who bordered on being a fundie. Love does funny things to people. My other half now doesn't share my faith, we just agree to respect each other's views (it helps that both of us follow unconventional faiths).

That said, I distrust Scientology. I distrust any faith that copyrights it's holy book.

[UTUSN]

113. Are they cute?!!1 or amenable/ semi- open-minded?!1 n/t

[MrMickeysMom]

116. No... No, I wouldn't or any other Religion confused with being a cult

Seriously

[Ilsa]

119. No way. nt

[shanti]

120. nope n/t

[AJTheMan]

121. I could not marry a person who is extremely rigid in their beliefs or overly proselytizing.

To me, it does not matter much if their personal lord and savior is Jesus, Krishna, L.Ron Hubbard, or Allah. These are their beliefs and I have no right to change them. Likewise, however, they would have to respect my beliefs as well for the relationship to work. If the person in question wanted me to come to church with them or go audit our thetans every Sunday, then we might have issues. Summarily, if a person wants to practice their religion and also be with me, then that's fine. It's all about respect though. If converting me is their main goal, or to try to change who I am, this would be a problem. Not to sound prejudiced, but Scientology personally scares me. I've heard of what they've done and I would be very scared that they would seek vengeance against me in some way. That is their way.

[Liberal_in_LA]

123. no. Friend was married to one. It was like being married to a gambling addict. all his money went

to the scientologists

[pnwmom]

130. I just read today that an MIT professor who studied them said that going through all the levels

could cost a devotee as much as half a million dollars in "donations."

[Liberal_in_LA]

158. yep. don't they take some sort of exam? And to climb higher in the religion requires more expensiv

expensive exams


Reminds me of the psychic scam. They get you in for a first reading, find some weakness that requires more expensive future readings.

[madokie]

125. I'm not sure I could even stay in the same room with one.

[sendero]

127. No....

.... I'm already married but if I were looking the first qualification would be intelligence and judgment. Having anything to do with scientology would be a strong indicator of a serious lack of either.

[LanternWaste]

132. Scientologist, republican vegan who wears flip-flops in public and is covered in tattoos? Sure...

I don't really have any deal-breakers in regards to what would prevent me (or indeed, force me) to fall in love and marry someone.

Scientologist, republican vegan who wears flip-flops in public and is covered in tattoos? Sure, why not if I'm in love?

[slackmaster]

133. Given my status as Suppressive Person Level 2 no self-respecting Scientologist would even talk to me

[FrodosPet]

215. When do I get my SP trophy?

Congratulations!

I was a frequent lurker and occasional poster on alt.religion.scientology back when the Usenet was THE spot for discussions on the net. Maybe I am an SP, but way too minor for them to eff with.

[slackmaster]

218. I repeatedly published Dianetics and the OT-III materials on the Web without permission

I got a really great nasty "Cease and desist" email from Helena Kobrin herself.

[FrodosPet]

221. Spreading the word about Xenu and the BTs?

Yep, you deserve your SP honor!

[Iggy]

134. NO

NO...

Years ago I went to the center in Atlanta and got their "free" evaluation. I forget all of the details, but the subject of cig
smoking came up-- the person interviewing me stated something to the effect, "oh, what we do negates the negative
effects of smoking".

what a load that is... plus they wanted me to purchase hundreds of dollars of materials right off the bat; equally bogus.

I went on to Raja Yoga meditation, much more positive results sans the nuttiness and controversy.

[Aerows]

135. Hell no

I wouldn't date one, either. There is no one on the planet that is attractive enough for me to endure the nuttery that is Co$.

[Demonaut]

136. the question should be "would you date a scientologist"

no

[Xyzse]

137. Will never discount the possibility

I've never been married and since to me religion is not my biggest thing, I could care less what they are.
My primary thing is someone who I can talk to and stand in the morning.

Stating that, I doubt I'd be seriously attracted to one, to begin with. So, even if I don't discount the possibility, it is highly unlikely.

[RiffRandell]

138. No way.

I've made some bad decisions in my life, but that would not be one of them.

[geardaddy]

140. Nope.

[hifiguy]

141. Not even if she looked like Lucy Liu and was

as smart as Rachel Maddow. No freaking way.

[Pisces]

143. not for millions, not for anything.

[ailsagirl]

146. NO WAY

Last edited Thu Jul 5, 2012, 02:51 PM - Edit history (1)

They give me the creeps

[Dawson Leery]

148. NO.

[Skittles]

151. no

but then I would not marry any religious nut

[4th law of robotics]

152. I consider mental stability a requirement for even considering to marry a person

and joining a cult is not a sign of mental stability.

So no.

/date? Maybe.

[demwing]

156. I could never be in a relationship with a judgmental bigot

regardless of whether they hid their bigotry behind theism or atheism

[4th law of robotics]

160. Judgement, yes

bigot, no.

Would you marry, for instance, a Klansman? That's just a different set of beliefs. Maybe there are some nice ones out there. And who can stop love, amiright?

So yes or no: would you judge someone and reject them based on their beliefs? In this case, hating jews and blacks.

/let the backpedaling commence!

[demwing]

167. I don't care what your thoughts are

I care what your actions are.

Have you ever had a family member that was a bigot?

My dad is. He's a pretty blatant racist. I love him, he's my dad, but I can't be around him, because of the way he acts.

I'm not telling anyone who they should love, or marry. But we should all limit our insults to people based on their actions, not their beliefs. It's one step away from hating people for their beliefs, and then hating them for their thoughts.

[4th law of robotics]

168. Full Stop!

You love your dad the bigot, but you can't be around him.

Ok, now this is a discussion on whether we would marry a person who was a scientologist.

You think it's healthy to say "I love my wife but I can't stand to be around her because of the way she acts".

I do not think that is healthy.

And yes, it is perfectly fair to hate someone for their beliefs. If someone were to tell me that if they had their way me and everyone like me would be in a death camp I would say "I do not care for you sir, good day!" and be done with it. Those are beliefs, not actions. Right?

[demwing]

175. But the discussion evolved

beyond Scientology, covering all religion.

I understand the issue analogy with my dad isn't perfect, but it was used to show a point. We don't always choose who we love, and those we love don't always stay the same person as the one we first loved.

And even though this absolute rejection of the concept of marriage to a person of faith implies that one could fall in love, get married, and then leave a person solely on the basis of the fact that they adopted a religious faith, or experienced some religious emotion that they could no longer deny, I don't care - because that is not my real issue.

My real issue is the comfort level expressed in this thread with comparing people whom believe in God to the mentally insane, even though those posters KNOW there are religious progressives here who will be hurt and insulted by the comments.

They don't give a damn, because they don't agree that they have any responsibility to keep the discourse civil.

That's it.

[4th law of robotics]

181. I never said anything about "all religion"

perhaps you have me confused with someone else.

Scientology =/= all religion.

Just like saying you wouldn't marry a klansman doesn't mean you wouldn't ever consider marrying anyone who ever dressed in white.

You're the one who took it to mean "all religion is under attack".

[demwing]

188. Post 153: "I think it's ok to judge people based on their beliefs"

Sorry, didn't catch where you limited that to Scientology

[4th law of robotics]

190. I didn't catch where that equates to

hating everyone who believes in god.

A) religion isn't the only belief system.
B) judging doesn't mean hating.

Your outrage on behalf of the poor downtrodden theists is noted. I feel so very bad for them (even though they were not brought up as a group until you did so). Let's give them some holidays and maybe work to ensure that at least some of our government professes faith in a deity so they can feel less persecuted.

[demwing]

191. Judging =/= being judgmental

I'm all for having good judgment, which includes knowing when your words are hurting people who are friendly to you, and innocent of any ill.

[4th law of robotics]

192. Let's recap

people express a general disdain for a litigious an particularly insane cult regarding marriage.

You translate that to hatred of all religion and latch on to a few people to push your passive aggressive victimhood.

This is just getting silly at this point.

Yes, there is a war on religion. All theists are in dire need of help because of . . . occasional mean words on the internet directed at some of their fringe members.

Atheists don't know how good they have it.

[demwing]

194. You simply cant have this discussion

without being insulting.

Why is that?

Let the world take care of itself, what I care about is how one group of DUers treats another. If you find that difficult to accommodate, I ask again...

Why is that?

[4th law of robotics]

202. And which DUers are you defending here?

Who here is a scientologist? Maybe they can speak up and defend themselves without you being perpetually offended on their behalf.

[LanternWaste]

178. Jewish businesswoman Adelaide Winkle married SS Obsturmfurher Kluas Stiener in a secrest ceremony in

Former Stuttgart Jewish businesswoman (and then concentration camp prisoner) Adelaide Winkle married SS Obsturmfurher Kluas Stiener in a secret ceremony in 1943.

Let the rationalizing commence, too...?

[4th law of robotics]

186. Stockholm syndrome?

[JustAnotherGen]

154. Can't

Already married.

[NeverEnuff]

161. Mormonism

Isn't Mormonism similarly weird. Wasn't Smith and Young the prototypes for Hubbard And Miscavage. To answer your question,NO.

[get the red out]

163. Hell NO!

We would have nothing in common.

[blueamy66]

164. FUCK NO

that is all

[catbyte]

179. NO

[otohara]

183. Nope -

Back in the 80's, while working in the record biz, I had the weirdest experience with them over a soundtrack to the book that was made into a really bad movie by John Travolta years later.

It's a long story - but they are nuts and pushy.

Poor Suri, it's like she's Rosemary's Baby

[echofreak]

195. maybe

if I was desperate enough

[Nuclear Unicorn]

200. I married a conservative; that's all the cross-pollenation you're getting out of me. n/t

[whatchamacallit]

201. Hmm...

Matt Taibbi is ringing the bell over the libor scandal

You hate Matt Taibbi

Matt Taibbi says the reason Americans aren't outraged is because they're too busy obsessing over the Cruise divorce

You post this OP

Hmm...

[sabrina 1]

208. Lol, he has a lot of fun

posting on this democratic board, doesn't he?

I still think we met somewhere before

[whatchamacallit]

209. Met?

You and BFK, or you and I?

[sabrina 1]

217. BFK!

Sorry, should have made it more clear.

[whatchamacallit]

219. Ah, that's what I figured

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't forget meeting you, Sabrina!

[HooptieWagon]

211. No, hell no.

[davidpdx]

220. Hell no

That goes the same for Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not a religious person and consider myself pretty open minded, but those three I find really strange.

We used to live near a hospital run by JW in Seoul and I always joked with my wife about the spaceship taking off on Saturday night.

[Blue_In_AK]

222. No.

[Rex]

223. Would you?

.

[HappyMe]

225. No.

But hell no.

[HuckleB]

226. No.