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Sat May 6, 2017, 05:32 AM

Delta Airlines kicks family off flight, lies about FAA regulations, threatens foster-care

http://www.salon.com/2017/05/05/delta-family-kicked-off-flight/

ABCís Eyewitness News of Los Angeles reports that the Schear family of Huntington Beach, California were asked by the crew of the plane to give up a seat occupied by their 2-year-old son and his car seat in order to accommodate a standby passenger on the apparently overbooked flight.

During the exchange, an employee tells father Brian Schear that, according to Federal Aviation Authority regulations, his 2-year-old ďcannot sit in the car seat . . . He has to sit in your arms the whole time.Ē Not only does this statement contradict all FAA policy, but Deltaís own website encourages customers to buy separate seats for young children and to use child-safety restraint systems, car seats included.




-------------

So, Delta Airlines intentionally wanted to break FAA regulations.
They intentionally wanted to endanger the life of a 2yo child.
And when their plan didn't work out, they kicked the whole family off the flight and threatened to have them arrested by police.

155 replies, 11965 views

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Reply Delta Airlines kicks family off flight, lies about FAA regulations, threatens foster-care (Original post)
DetlefK May 2017 OP
pnwmom May 2017 #1
HoneyBadger May 2017 #3
pnwmom May 2017 #6
HoneyBadger May 2017 #7
pnwmom May 2017 #9
HoneyBadger May 2017 #11
pnwmom May 2017 #12
HoneyBadger May 2017 #14
pnwmom May 2017 #16
HoneyBadger May 2017 #31
Demsrule86 May 2017 #118
Ms. Toad May 2017 #119
pnwmom May 2017 #123
forthemiddle May 2017 #50
pnwmom May 2017 #57
forthemiddle May 2017 #121
pnwmom May 2017 #122
Cha May 2017 #53
HoneyBadger May 2017 #2
pnwmom May 2017 #4
HoneyBadger May 2017 #5
pnwmom May 2017 #8
pnwmom May 2017 #10
HoneyBadger May 2017 #13
pnwmom May 2017 #15
HoneyBadger May 2017 #29
kristopher May 2017 #32
pnwmom May 2017 #33
HoneyBadger May 2017 #36
pnwmom May 2017 #42
Demsrule86 May 2017 #18
HoneyBadger May 2017 #34
pnwmom May 2017 #65
WinkyDink May 2017 #20
malaise May 2017 #116
Demsrule86 May 2017 #17
kcr May 2017 #120
CreekDog May 2017 #155
DrDan May 2017 #19
WinkyDink May 2017 #21
DrDan May 2017 #26
pnwmom May 2017 #37
DrDan May 2017 #40
pnwmom May 2017 #45
DrDan May 2017 #52
pnwmom May 2017 #69
DrDan May 2017 #80
pnwmom May 2017 #82
DrDan May 2017 #85
pnwmom May 2017 #86
DrDan May 2017 #88
pnwmom May 2017 #91
DrDan May 2017 #93
pnwmom May 2017 #98
DrDan May 2017 #114
pnwmom May 2017 #125
DrDan May 2017 #126
pnwmom May 2017 #128
DrDan May 2017 #129
pnwmom May 2017 #132
DrDan May 2017 #133
pnwmom May 2017 #134
DrDan May 2017 #135
pnwmom May 2017 #136
DrDan May 2017 #138
pnwmom May 2017 #139
DrDan May 2017 #140
pnwmom May 2017 #141
DrDan May 2017 #142
pnwmom May 2017 #143
DrDan May 2017 #145
pnwmom May 2017 #146
DrDan May 2017 #148
pnwmom May 2017 #149
DrDan May 2017 #150
pnwmom May 2017 #151
pnwmom May 2017 #92
DrDan May 2017 #94
Bernardo de La Paz May 2017 #23
DrDan May 2017 #25
pnwmom May 2017 #38
DrDan May 2017 #41
pnwmom May 2017 #47
pnwmom May 2017 #108
DrDan May 2017 #111
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DrDan May 2017 #44
pnwmom May 2017 #49
DrDan May 2017 #59
pnwmom May 2017 #63
HockeyMom May 2017 #97
DrDan May 2017 #115
HockeyMom May 2017 #117
Cha May 2017 #60
DrDan May 2017 #62
Cha May 2017 #64
Bernardo de La Paz May 2017 #22
DrDan May 2017 #28
pnwmom May 2017 #106
DrDan May 2017 #113
pnwmom May 2017 #124
WinkyDink May 2017 #24
DrDan May 2017 #27
kristopher May 2017 #43
DrDan May 2017 #46
pnwmom May 2017 #51
DrDan May 2017 #58
pnwmom May 2017 #61
DrDan May 2017 #67
pnwmom May 2017 #70
DrDan May 2017 #73
pnwmom May 2017 #76
DrDan May 2017 #77
kristopher May 2017 #66
DrDan May 2017 #68
kristopher May 2017 #74
DrDan May 2017 #75
kristopher May 2017 #81
DrDan May 2017 #83
kristopher May 2017 #95
Cattledog May 2017 #55
SaschaHM May 2017 #130
Chemisse May 2017 #30
pnwmom May 2017 #39
Chemisse May 2017 #48
pnwmom May 2017 #54
Chemisse May 2017 #99
pnwmom May 2017 #102
DrDan May 2017 #78
MicaelS May 2017 #96
Chemisse May 2017 #101
pnwmom May 2017 #103
Cha May 2017 #56
mainer May 2017 #71
pnwmom May 2017 #79
HockeyMom May 2017 #104
Demit May 2017 #72
Cha May 2017 #84
pnwmom May 2017 #87
Cha May 2017 #90
liberal N proud May 2017 #89
Jim Beard May 2017 #100
pnwmom May 2017 #105
Jim Beard May 2017 #154
pnwmom May 2017 #107
Cattledog May 2017 #109
mainer May 2017 #112
Tatiana May 2017 #110
Warpy May 2017 #127
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2017 #131
gyroscope May 2017 #137
pnwmom May 2017 #144
Initech May 2017 #147
Binkie The Clown May 2017 #152
nada May 2017 #153

Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:14 AM

1. And the family did pay for that seat -- in the name of their 18 year old --

and they had also paid to fly him out on the previous day. So all they wanted to do was have the toddler fly in the 18 year old's place using the 2nd ticket that they had paid for.

And FAA regulations do NOT bar a change as long as the substitute traveler can be checked against the terrorist lists. Obviously no 2 year old is a terrorist threat.

So what Delta was trying to do was get 3 payments for 2 tickets -- because they didn't have to refund this family for the 18 year old's seat and they could resell it to the stand-by traveler.

Technically that was legal, but from a PR standpoint it was just plain stupid.

And they DID lie when they said that the toddler couldn't sit in his own seat. That was a blatant lie. Babies have been allowed in car seats for at least 20 years.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:15 AM

3. Did the 18 year check in and board?

 

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #3)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:24 AM

6. The family had gone through multiple check in points and that ticket was accepted.

No one asked to ID the 2 year old.

And FAA regs do not bar the substitution of a traveler -- they just want the substitute to be checked against no-fly lists. It is only Delta's policy, which is a money maker for them, that doesn't allow substitutions. This way they can sell the ticket twice -- once to the person who doesn't get a refund, and also to the stand-by traveler.

It appears that they were fine with the toddler traveling on the ticket till they saw a way to make more money with a stand-by person.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #6)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:27 AM

7. Are you saying that the family had already changed to name on the ticket to the 2 year old?

 

I.e., the family had already substituted the ticket??

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #7)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:29 AM

9. Read the article. Two year olds don't have ID in this country

and they were probably waved through all the checkpoints.

The family had paid for that ticket -- it hadn't been cancelled -- and the 2 year old wasn't any risk.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #9)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:38 AM

11. You are either checked in with a boarding pass in your name or you are not

 

If you are not checked in, the entire round trip itinerary is usually cancelled. Airlines tend to handle logistics differently than Greyhound.

What you are implying is that the 2 year old could have flown the first leg of a connecting flight, and some stranger the next leg, the 18 year old the next leg and so on.

Makes me want to buy some cheap tickets with many hops (JFK-DEN-SFO-HNL and back for example) and sell each hop on EBay.

I suspect that the FAA would find this problematic.

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #11)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:41 AM

12. The family handed over the 18 year old's ticket at check in

and no one objected.

And, as I posted below, the FAA does not bar the substitution of passengers, as long as ID is provided for people over 18. Obviously with a 2 year old ID wouldn't be an issue. Neither would a no-fly list.

So Delta had the choice to be either humane and compassionate and flexible; or to make a stand based on their own policies that would allow them to re-sell the ticket -- that the family had paid for and couldn't be refunded -- to someone else.

Delta made a really stupid choice, which they quickly recognized.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #12)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:47 AM

14. So if the family gets past initial check in

 

Which can be just sticking a credit card into a machine and getting a boarding pass. And gets through TSA. And makes it to the gate. They are good to go?

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #14)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:55 AM

16. Yup. If they get through all the checkpoints including TSA and get seated in the plane,

they should be good to go.

FAA policy did not prohibit this. Delta blew it by insisting on sticking to their self-serving policy once they saw a chance to make a little extra money with the stand-by traveler.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #16)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:43 AM

31. Playground rules?

 

If you tag base, you are safe?

Lets get the the link.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #16)

Sat May 6, 2017, 12:57 PM

118. Yes they did...and I hope it cost them...they suck.

The employees involved should have an unpaid vacation at the least.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #12)

Sat May 6, 2017, 01:33 PM

119. Did they actually hand over the ticket?

If they had, I can't imagine why their records showed the seat was empty so it could be filled by a stand-by passenger. While I have seen references to going through check-in points, I haven't seen references to handing over the 18-year old's ticket/boarding pass.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #119)

Sat May 6, 2017, 02:35 PM

123. Their records showed it because the parents had already explained it to the gate crew and had gotten

their approval to use it for the 2 year old.

But then the gate crew changed its mind, probably because the stand-by person showed up. (The plane wasn't overbooked.)

And remember, the airline had it within its discretion to make the seat available to the 2 year old. There was no law preventing them from doing so. They just chose not to. The FAA does not bar the transfer of a ticket from one person to another, as long as a new ADULT passenger can show an ID. Delta had it within its own discretion to waive their own personal policy against transferring tickets.

Plus, we can hear the employee lying on the video about FAA regs. They lie about the FAA barring the transfer of tickets and they lie about toddlers not being allowed to sit in car seats. (Which has been legal for more than 20 years.)

Why did they lie? Whey didn't they simply say: "you don't have a boarding pass for that 2 year old, so you don't have a seat"? Why didn't say, "we told you before you couldn't have him sit there?"

Most likely because they knew it wasn't true and they had already told the family they could use the four seats, since there was room on the flight. But then the stand-by showed up, so they made up lies. All so they could sell the same ticket twice.


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-family-kicked-delta-flight-threatened-jail-refusing-give-toddler-n755141

Brian Schear said the family had initially purchased a ticket for their teenage son on the red-eye flight, but decided to send him home early so that their 2-year-old could have a seat on the plane. The couple was also traveling with a 1-year-old.

He said they let the ticket agent know about their situation at the gate, and that the agent accommodated the family to sit together.

Brian Schear said they boarded the plane without issue, but with other passengers on the standby list for the flight, he was then told by Delta agents that the 2-year-old had to give up his seat ó and then threatened with jail.




https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/05/05/delta-dispute-confusion-child-travel/101322860/

1. The name on the ticket

Delta Air Lines says on its website that tickets canít be transferred and names canít be changed.

The Transportation Security Administration said federal regulations donít prevent changing the name on a ticket Ė so long as the new passengerís name can be run through a database to confirm the person isn't a threat before the flight.

2. Car seat or lap baby? How children 2 and under are supposed to fly

Another facet of the dispute is that the Federal Aviation Administration ďstrongly urgesĒ that infants travel in a car seat for safety, although children up to age 2 can be held in a parentís lap.

Delta also recommends on its web site that parents buy a seat for children under 2 and put them in an approved child-safety seat.

In a video of the incident, somebody off camera mistakenly tells Schear that federal rules require children to remain in a parentís lap throughout a flight.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #6)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:04 AM

50. Did the family have a boarding pass?

This specific question has not been answered that I have seen.

My understanding is that Delta resold the ticket because the 18 year old did not check in. Doesn't printing of a boarding pass constitute "checking in"? In other words, two year old lap babies wouldn't have a boarding pass or need ID check at TSA so until they used the seat without the boarding pass there shouldn't have been a problem.

So if Delta issued a boarding pass they are in the wrong, if they didn't and Dad just wanted to still use the seat without the boarding pass then he's in the wrong.

Did he have the boarding pass or not? Should be a simple question to answer.

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Response to forthemiddle (Reply #50)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:10 AM

57. Yes. They had the boarding passes and were seated when the airline decided

the toddler had to make way for a stand-by passenger -- even though the airline wouldn't have lost a dollar by allowing the 2 year old to sub for his brother, and even though FAA regs would have allowed him to.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #57)

Sat May 6, 2017, 02:00 PM

121. I have looked at a lot of reports

And I have not actually seen that they had a boarding pass, just that he paid for a ticket. Do you have the link that they checked in, and had a boarding pass?

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Response to forthemiddle (Reply #121)

Sat May 6, 2017, 02:28 PM

122. This report was not disputed by the airline, and the airline apologized.

Also, it would have been within regulations. The FAA does not bar the transfer of a ticket from one person to another, as long as a new ADULT passenger can show an ID. Delta had it within its own discretion to waive their own personal policy against transferring tickets.

Plus, we can hear the employee lying on the video about FAA regs. They lie about transferring tickets and they lie about toddlers not being allowed to sit in car seats. (Which has been legal for more than 20 years.)

Why did they lie? Whey didn't they simply say: "you don't have a boarding pass for that 2 year old, so you don't have a seat?"

Most likely because they knew it wasn't true. So they made up lies.


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-family-kicked-delta-flight-threatened-jail-refusing-give-toddler-n755141

Brian Schear said the family had initially purchased a ticket for their teenage son on the red-eye flight, but decided to send him home early so that their 2-year-old could have a seat on the plane. The couple was also traveling with a 1-year-old.

He said they let the ticket agent know about their situation at the gate, and that the agent accommodated the family to sit together.

Brian Schear said they boarded the plane without issue, but with other passengers on the standby list for the flight, he was then told by Delta agents that the 2-year-old had to give up his seat ó and then threatened with jail.




https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/05/05/delta-dispute-confusion-child-travel/101322860/

1. The name on the ticket

Delta Air Lines says on its website that tickets canít be transferred and names canít be changed.

The Transportation Security Administration said federal regulations donít prevent changing the name on a ticket Ė so long as the new passengerís name can be run through a database to confirm the person isn't a threat before the flight.

2. Car seat or lap baby? How children 2 and under are supposed to fly

Another facet of the dispute is that the Federal Aviation Administration ďstrongly urgesĒ that infants travel in a car seat for safety, although children up to age 2 can be held in a parentís lap.

Delta also recommends on its web site that parents buy a seat for children under 2 and put them in an approved child-safety seat.

In a video of the incident, somebody off camera mistakenly tells Schear that federal rules require children to remain in a parentís lap throughout a flight.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #1)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:08 AM

53. DELTA APOLOGIZES..

"We are sorry for the unfortunate experience our customers had with Delta, and we've reached out to them to refund their travel and provide additional compensation. Delta's goal is to always work with customers in an attempt to find solutions to their travel issues. That did not happen in this case and we apologize."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/05/527071539/delta-apologizes-to-family-that-was-kicked-off-a-plane-over-a-toddlers-seat?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170505

Good on Delta..

P.S. I see you already know.. you were right to stand up for the family, pnwmom.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:14 AM

2. This appears to be fake news

 

The seat that they were attempting to use, was actually purchased for a different passenger who did not check in.

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #2)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:18 AM

4. This isn't fake news. Delta has apologized and compensated the family.

FAA regulations do NOT bar the substitution of another traveler as long as that person can be checked against no-fly lists. That was only a Delta policy that they could have shown some flexibility on.

And Delta LIED when they told the family that babies and toddlers are barred from sitting in car seats. That's been allowed for at least 20 years.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/05/527071539/delta-apologizes-to-family-that-was-kicked-off-a-plane-over-a-toddlers-seat

In its statement about the incident, Delta says:

"We are sorry for the unfortunate experience our customers had with Delta, and we've reached out to them to refund their travel and provide additional compensation. Delta's goal is to always work with customers in an attempt to find solutions to their travel issues. That did not happen in this case and we apologize."

SNIP

He then describes how he and his family had gotten onto the plane after passing through multiple checkpoints in the airport and at the gate, where the airline could have stopped them before they took their seats and set up their two toddlers in car seats.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #4)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:21 AM

5. Just to be clear, you are advising that one can just purchase a bunch of airlines tickets under

 

names of people that are no shows. Then substitute whomever you choose at the airport. And that the FAA and airlines endorse this? Link please.

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #5)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:27 AM

8. No, I'm saying FAA regulations give the airlines some flexibility on this, and anyone with a BRAIN

could know that a 2 year old wouldn't be on a terrorist list.

That's why the airline has apologized and refunded the family's ticket money and given them additional compensation.

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #5)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:35 AM

10. This is about the FAA policy regarding substitution of passengers;

There is no written FAA policy that addresses the use of an assigned seat by a passenger who is not the person the ticket was originally purchased for, as the airline staff claimed in the video, according to FAA spokeswoman Allison Duquette, who said FAA rules only govern safety.

Transportation Safety Administration rules, however, indicate that adult passengers need to hold valid identification that matches the name on their boarding pass. It is not clear how, or if, those rules would apply to a 2-year-old.


http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-delta-flight-orange-county-20170504-story.html

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #10)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:45 AM

13. Was the ticket in the name of the 18 year old? Is that an adult? Perhaps that triggers an ID check?

 

Why not just buy all of your airline tickets for 2 year olds and swap in whomever wants to fly that day?

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #13)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:52 AM

15. Since the FAA allowed it, why should airline employees not be human and use common sense?

They knew a 2 year old couldn't possibly be a terrorist -- anymore than the other small child traveling with them -- and the parents had proper ID's.

As to your question, if you bought a ticket for a two year old and wanted an adult to fly on it, that adult would have to provide ID that could be checked against a no-fly list. So what would be the point of doing that?

The reason the family did this is because their adult son flew the day before. So they decided they might as well use his ticket for the 2 year old instead of holding him on a lap for the whole flight. And since 2 year olds don't need ID, aren't a threat ,and FAA doesn't bar the substitution, why not? And then they got through all the checkpoints without anyone demanding to see the two year olds ID.

And Delta out and out lied about car seats. That policy has been in place of rmore than 20 years.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #15)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:40 AM

29. How would the airline know that the child was not being traffiked

 

No trail, could be the end of the line for the child?

Nothing is 100 percent, but there are reasons to know when children are traveling and with whom. I do not believe that you can even get a Delta frequent flyer account for a 12 year old without sent proof that you are the parent. With no documentation for the 2 year old, how can you say that they are traveling with an approved guardian?

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #29)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:45 AM

32. What is wrong with you?

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #29)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:45 AM

33. Are you SERIOUS? Two year olds in this country don't carry IDs.

By your reasoning, the airlines should be checking EVERY child for ID to make sure they aren't being trafficked.

Thankfully things haven't gotten that bad yet.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #33)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:49 AM

36. No they have not

 

But buying a ticket in an adult's name and adhoc substituting a infant with no way of knowing who they are and sending them across the country is not a good thing either.

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #36)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:54 AM

42. The airlines NEVER check ID's of ANY 2 year olds. Thank goodness our TSA insanity

hasn't gone that far yet.

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #13)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:57 AM

18. What Airline do you work for? If I buy a ticket...any member of my family should be able to sit in

it ...they use it as an excuse because of overbooking...but this time it cost them.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #18)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:46 AM

34. When you book a ticket, even if you buy 4 tickets.....

 

They ask for the name of each passenger. The "any member of the family" thing where you just say that you will decide at boarding does not seem to work.

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #34)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:20 AM

65. And they NEVER ask to see ID of a two year old. n/t

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #5)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:08 AM

20. One son for a toddler son. Get real here.

 

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #4)

Sat May 6, 2017, 10:50 AM

116. I am amazed at the number of corporate defenders and tools

who post here,

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #2)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:55 AM

17. That is untrue...I read multiple stories...and they had a ticket purchased for another family member

They had to pay up and should have...I only hope the flight crew is suspended without pay. They threatened that family. There is a tape.

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #2)

Sat May 6, 2017, 01:43 PM

120. Huh. Well Delta apologized and issued them refunds for this "fake news" n/t

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Response to HoneyBadger (Reply #2)

Wed May 24, 2017, 12:29 AM

155. OOooohhhh, looks like you got banned for your behavior in this thread!



Well, you will be missed.

I mean, I haven't met anyone that does yet, but hope springs eternal.





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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:59 AM

19. Delta was completely correct in giving that seat to a stand-by

You cannot buy a ticket for one family member, and then let someone else use the seat.

They apologized to get beyond this. Too much publicity. And their agents went overboard in their discussions with the family while on the plane. Had they stuck to the facts, everything would have been kosher.

And had the family simply flown the way they contracted, they would have avoided the whole issue.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #19)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:09 AM

21. The sub was their BABY, FGS. Hardly terrorist material. "Overboard"? Threatening

 

that their children will be taken into foster care?!?!

I'd say that goes beyond "overboard."

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #21)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:18 AM

26. they cannot have someone use the ticket unless they formally transfer it

the ticket was either non-transferrable or he simply did not go to the effort to transfer it

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Response to DrDan (Reply #26)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:50 AM

37. Delta waited till they knew they had a stand-by person who would pay them for the seat.

Otherwise they were fine with the toddler using his brother's ticket. It doesn't go against FAA policy. There is NO formal way to check ID on a two year old.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #37)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:53 AM

40. ok . . . not disputing that - but Delta was within their rights to assign that seat to a standby

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Response to DrDan (Reply #40)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:58 AM

45. They were within their legal rights -- but they ALSO would have been legally able to allow

the substitution. Two year olds are never required to use ID, and they are allowed to sit in car seats for free when space is available. The airline could have decided space was available, and they wouldn't have lost a single dollar. The problem was they wanted to be able to sell this seat TWICE.

They stupidly decided to squeeze every last dollar out of that flight by telling the family they couldn't use the ticket for their 2 year old.

Think about it another way. Delta would also be within its rights if they stuffed even more seats in every plane, so each seat only had 26 inches of leg room. But they would run the risk of alienating even more customers.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #45)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:05 AM

52. I have no idea what point you are trying to make re seat size. But airlines change their

configurations often. And yes - passengers may choose to fly another carrier.

According to the boarding numbers, that seat was unoccupied. Delta simply filled it. Very simple.

The family contracted with Delta to fly with an infant in the lap. They then complained when they could not make the decision to let the infant have the seat.

Yep - Delta screwed up in the interaction with the family. But they were on solid ground in seat assignments.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #52)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:22 AM

69. Delta was not REQUIRED to fill it with someone else. Very simple.

They were technically within their rights. But they technically COULD have decided to make the seat available for the 2 year old -- without breaking a single FAA regulation or even their own policy -- without losing a single dollar since the seat had already been paid for once.

But they got greedy. They wanted to be paid for it TWICE.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #69)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:33 AM

80. and the family could haved tried to transfer the ticket to the infant - they didn't

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Response to DrDan (Reply #80)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:34 AM

82. They had been waved through all the checkpoints with the older son's ticket.

They didn't know that suddenly they wouldn't be allowed to use it.

I think the airline was fine with it till they saw a chance to make some extra money with the stand-by.

Remember, all this started with them lying to the family and saying that car seats weren't allowed to be used. That was going to be their excuse even if the family HAD bought the ticket for their 2 year old.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #82)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:38 AM

85. so you think the gate staff and flight attendants are driven by greed - got it

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Response to DrDan (Reply #85)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:46 AM

86. That was the only reason for Delta to make this choice. They had already been paid for this seat

by this family. It was short-sighted greed that made them want to get paid twice.

What do you think about them lying about a car seat policy that has been in place for more than 20 years? It shows a lack of good faith to me.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #86)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:48 AM

88. since the family paid for it- why did they not transfer it to the infant

yes they paid for it - for their other son - and Delta saw he did not show to claim the seat.

simple

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Response to DrDan (Reply #88)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:54 AM

91. It probably wasn't clear to them that there was some formal transfer necessary.

The FAA doesn't have any formal process for a 2 year old (adults who are being substituted have to show ID).

And Delta had the freedom to override their own policy in this case, since doing so wouldn't have been prohibited by the FAA.


There is no written FAA policy that addresses the use of an assigned seat by a passenger who is not the person the ticket was originally purchased for, as the airline staff claimed in the video, according to FAA spokeswoman Allison Duquette, who said FAA rules only govern safety.

Transportation Safety Administration rules, however, indicate that adult passengers need to hold valid identification that matches the name on their boarding pass. It is not clear how, or if, those rules would apply to a 2-year-old.


http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-delta-flight-orange-county-20170504-story.html
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Response to pnwmom (Reply #91)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:58 AM

93. those greedy flight attendants

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Response to DrDan (Reply #93)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:11 AM

98. No, just not smart enough to contact the gate crew. Either that or the gate crew

wasn't smart enough to be flexible about Delta's rights and rules.

On second thought, I can't believe the cabin people didn't know they were telling a falsehood about car seats. Car seats are used every day on every airline, and have been for 20 years.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #98)

Sat May 6, 2017, 10:26 AM

114. Why would they contact the gate? That makes no sense?

How would the on-board staff know that seat was being reassigned? Why would they initiate contact with the gate?

The seat was assigned. The assigned passenger does not show. The seat is reassigned.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #114)

Sat May 6, 2017, 02:55 PM

125. They could have contacted the gate to say, "this family says that they told you they wanted

to put their 2 year old in their other son's seat, and that you helped them sit here. So don't send the stand-by person in."

The airline does NOT dispute the parents account that this is what happened. Instead, the cabin crew made up non-existent regs about car seats.

How stupid.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #125)

Sat May 6, 2017, 02:57 PM

126. what would have prompted them to contact the gate and say that

they are just passing through the aisle and decided that there was going to be a problem with the seat assignments?

makes absolutely no sense

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Response to DrDan (Reply #126)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:02 PM

128. What could have prompted them to contact the gate? Common sense, which

too many people seem to lack.

There was a dispute. It all could have been resolved by not forcing the family off the plane and instead not allowing the stand-by to board. In the case of a dispute, the crew without the authority to reassign should contact the gate crew who DID have the authority.

Have you even read the NBC account I've just posted twice? The parents story -- that the airline does not dispute -- is that the parents explained the situation at the gate and the gate person accompanied them to the plane to help them. The gate person was fully aware of how they were sitting, and it was fine because at that time the plane wasn't over booked.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #128)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:05 PM

129. how would anyone know there was a dispute until the stand-by got on the plane and went to his/her

seat?

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Response to DrDan (Reply #129)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:12 PM

132. It's clear from the video. The standby wasn't on the plane yet! So the gate crew

could have told the standby just to wait.

Instead, the cabin crew went to the parents and told them lies about FAA regs requiring them to hold the child in the parents lap. That would then free up the seat for the stand by.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #132)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:14 PM

133. How could you determine that from the video? The standby could be anywhere - perhaps

went to the front of the plane to find an attendant to resolve it

How did they determine that there was an issue if the standby did not board?

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Response to DrDan (Reply #133)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:19 PM

134. He wasn't visible anywhere. And the airline has NOT disputed the parents' account

that they had told the gate crew of the situation and a gate crew member had even accompanied them to their seats.

Instead, the airline made up the lies that were caught on video.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #134)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:28 PM

135. but you are avoiding my question - how did they determine there was an issue if the

standby did not board and attempt to seat him/herself.

Your "he wasn't visible anywhere" does not pass the smell test. Just because you do not see anyone you believe is the standby does not mean that person did not board. The person could be anyplace.

Anyway - please explain to me . . . in simple terms . . . how did they know they had a conflict over the seat if the standby did not board? They did not simply pass through the cabin, see an infant in a seat, and say to themselves "oh oh . . . a problem." What triggered the whole event if not the standby trying to get to their seat?

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Response to DrDan (Reply #135)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:36 PM

136. Yes, I did. The gate crew, according to the parents' undisputed account,

knew that the child was in that seat. They had even helped the family sit there.

Then the standby shows up at the gate. For whatever reason (maybe it's an airline employee), the gate crew decides to reneg on their original decision. So the gate people tell the cabin crew to get the 2 year old out of the seat.

So the cabin crew goes to the parents and lies, saying the child can't sit there anyway, that a toddler must sit on a lap for a whole flight.

The cabin crew NEVER says the parents don't have a boarding pass. The cabin crew NEVER says they didn't know the child was in that seat. They just lie about non-existent regs. Because they know the parents are right and they are trying to find some other reason the 2 year old shouldn't be in the seat.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #136)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:46 PM

138. so there is a source somewhere that confirms what you say happened - the

airline employee standby, the gate crew decides to reneg, the gate crew informs cabin crew of conflict, the standby never boards?

I have not read any of that - please provide me your source.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #138)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:53 PM

139. This is what you asked me:

Anyway - please explain to me . . . in simple terms . . . how did they know they had a conflict over the seat if the standby did not board? They did not simply pass through the cabin, see an infant in a seat, and say to themselves "oh oh . . . a problem." What triggered the whole event if not the standby trying to get to their seat?


Your question implies that there is no logical scenario for them knowing that they had a conflict over the seat unless the standby had boarded.

I demonstrated a plausible alternate scenario. I don't have an account showing exactly how it happened, and neither did you. But you are the one falsely saying that there was no way for the airline to know about the conflict unless the standby was on the plane telling them. I explained how you were wrong. if the parents undisputed account was correct, then the gate crew knew about the conflict because they had already helped the family get into the 4 seats. Then they decided to seat the stand-by instead.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #139)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:59 PM

140. got it - you cannot explain what happened

you emphatically stated the standby did not board because you did not see a standby in the video.

So . . . the standby tries to board - but the gate crew recognizes the conflict by simple scanning the boarding pass? How does that happen? C'mon.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #140)

Sat May 6, 2017, 04:10 PM

141. But my account accords with what is visible and what can be heard, and the parents undisputed story.

Yours does not.

You are certain a standby person was on the plane, though none is visible.

And you cannot explain why the airline handled it the way they did. You cannot explain why the airline lied about FAA regs about car seats when all they would have had to say was: "this person has a boarding pass for that seat and your child does not." Or something along those lines. But they never did. They just made up fake regulations.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #141)

Sat May 6, 2017, 04:16 PM

142. not trying to explain why they handled it the way they did - I faulted them for that

the scenario is clear, however

The reservation was made in the name of the elder son.
The reservation was never changed to anyone else.
That person did not show up to board.
The seat was reassigned.

simple


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Response to DrDan (Reply #142)

Sat May 6, 2017, 05:07 PM

143. You do not know "the reservation was never changed to anyone else."

You do not know that the gate people didn't change the seat to the toddler, as the parents say -- and Delta doesn't dispute their statement.


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-family-kicked-delta-flight-threatened-jail-refusing-give-toddler-n755141

Brian Schear said the family had initially purchased a ticket for their teenage son on the red-eye flight, but decided to send him home early so that their 2-year-old could have a seat on the plane. The couple was also traveling with a 1-year-old.

He said they let the ticket agent know about their situation at the gate, and that the agent accommodated the family to sit together.

Brian Schear said they boarded the plane without issue, but with other passengers on the standby list for the flight, he was then told by Delta agents that the 2-year-old had to give up his seat ó and then threatened with jail.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #143)

Sat May 6, 2017, 05:17 PM

145. so the agent changed some seat assogments so there were 3 together - so?

One was still in the name of the elder son - who DID NOT SHOW UP.

The seat is then reassigned. And yes, the 2 year-old who was in the seat assigned his older brother, had to give up the seat.

Done

and so am I - tired of it

enjoy your alt-fact scenarios


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Response to DrDan (Reply #145)

Sat May 6, 2017, 05:23 PM

146. My scenarios are consistent with the known facts, unlike yours, which depend on an invisible standby

person already on the plane, and your ignoring the lies of the cabin crew.

Why do people usually lie? Because they know they are on shaky ground so they make something up.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #146)

Sat May 6, 2017, 05:36 PM

148. says the person who states no standby could have boarded because I did not see one on the video

and is convinced, based on nothing, that the standby was a Delta employee

lol

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Response to DrDan (Reply #148)

Sat May 6, 2017, 05:43 PM

149. You're misstating the facts once again. I never stated I was convinced that the standby was a Delta

employee, just that that I thought that was a likely possibility.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #149)

Sat May 6, 2017, 05:46 PM

150. how many times did you mis-state that - not only to me - but to others

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Response to DrDan (Reply #150)

Sat May 6, 2017, 05:54 PM

151. Not once did I ever say I was convinced about that. n/t

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Response to DrDan (Reply #88)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:56 AM

92. You're still dodging the question of Deltas lies to the family. Are you fine with that, too? n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #92)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:59 AM

94. no I am not fine with that

that was wrong on their part - and I did state that several times in this thread

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Response to DrDan (Reply #19)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:10 AM

23. But Delta ACCEPTED the contract deviation and BOARDED them. Too late for bureacracy then. nt

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #23)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:17 AM

25. the infant was boarded as a lap-baby

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Response to DrDan (Reply #25)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:51 AM

38. The toddler was boarded with a car seat and a ticket. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #38)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:54 AM

41. not a ticket purchased for the infant

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Response to DrDan (Reply #41)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:01 AM

47. Doesn't matter. Delta didn't have to be so greedy. The FAA regs gave them flexibility

and they chose to stand on their own policies to squeeze every last dollar out of that seat.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #25)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:43 AM

108. Not according to this he wasn't.

No wonder Delta apologized.

And don't bother suggesting the Dad is lying. The airline doesn't dispute this.


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-family-kicked-delta-flight-threatened-jail-refusing-give-toddler-n755141

Brian Schear said the family had initially purchased a ticket for their teenage son on the red-eye flight, but decided to send him home early so that their 2-year-old could have a seat on the plane. The couple was also traveling with a 1-year-old.

He said they let the ticket agent know about their situation at the gate, and that the agent accommodated the family to sit together.

Brian Schear said they boarded the plane without issue, but with other passengers on the standby list for the flight, he was then told by Delta agents that the 2-year-old had to give up his seat ó and then threatened with jail.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #108)

Sat May 6, 2017, 10:20 AM

111. the seat was in his older son's name - the older son did not show up - the

seat was reassigned.

The customer does not do ticket transfers - the carrier does. And one was not requested.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #19)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:48 AM

35. Not true. That was Delta's policy, but the FAA allows substitutions of passengers.

If Delta was going to object, they shouldn't have let the family through multiple check points before deciding the 2 year old couldn't use the seat on the ticket the family provided.

And Delta LIED about car seats. Car seats have been allowed for at least twenty years.

There is no written FAA policy that addresses the use of an assigned seat by a passenger who is not the person the ticket was originally purchased for, as the airline staff claimed in the video, according to FAA spokeswoman Allison Duquette, who said FAA rules only govern safety.

Transportation Safety Administration rules, however, indicate that adult passengers need to hold valid identification that matches the name on their boarding pass. It is not clear how, or if, those rules would apply to a 2-year-old.


http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-delta-flight-orange-county-20170504-story.html

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #35)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:57 AM

44. did the family transfer the ticket?

the infant was to ride in the lap of a parent so why would anyone in a checkpoint object to the boarding?

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Response to DrDan (Reply #44)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:03 AM

49. They didn't have to. The airlines can allow 2 year olds to sit either on a lap

or on a seat if it is available. They should have decided that this seat was available. They weren't REQUIRED to seat the stand-by passenger. That was their choice.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #49)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:13 AM

59. cabin crews do not assign seats - that is done at the gate

the gate sees the seat as unoccupied as the person whose name is on the reservation did not show. Hence they give it to a standby.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #59)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:18 AM

63. The cabin crew could have notified the gate that the family had a 2 year old in the seat,

and that the family was pointing out that they did pay for the seat, and the gate crew could have decided to be flexible and not to send the stand-by passenger to take his place. All of this would have been perfectly legal and not nearly as greedy.

Also, they could have NOT LIED about car seats. Car seats have been allowed for babies/toddlers for more than 20 years. They lost all credibility when they said that.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #44)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:11 AM

97. Looking up Delta, and also American, Policy

once a child reaches their 2nd Birthday, they cannot sit on a lap, but must have their own ticket and sit in a seat. This may be a FAA safety regulation, even more than a money issue.

So if Delta said the 2 year old could sit on a lap, they were violating their own policy, and perhaps FAA,

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #97)

Sat May 6, 2017, 10:27 AM

115. not sure what that has to do with the issue at hand - the seat assigned to the 18 year old who did

not show up.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #97)

Sat May 6, 2017, 11:30 AM

117. Second sentence

Against policy for the 2 year to take his brother's seat, then why did they say he could sit on a parent's lap which was also against policy.

Airline wanted to give that seat to a Standby Passenger.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #19)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:13 AM

60. They admitted they were wrong with "compensation"..

"We are sorry for the unfortunate experience our customers had with Delta, and we've reached out to them to refund their travel and provide additional compensation. Delta's goal is to always work with customers in an attempt to find solutions to their travel issues. That did not happen in this case and we apologize."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/05/527071539/delta-apologizes-to-family-that-was-kicked-off-a-plane-over-a-toddlers-seat?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170505

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Response to Cha (Reply #60)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:16 AM

62. they were wrong in their comments to the family - not in their assignment of seats

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Response to DrDan (Reply #62)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:18 AM

64. I'll let Delta have the final word on this.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:09 AM

22. It's not rocket science. If you board a customer through the gate, it's too late for bureaucracy.


If you accept them, then the only reason to kick them off is for violation of flight rules: drunkenness, violence, harassing behavior, disruption.

Sitting in the seat on the boarding pass is not sufficient reason to kick them off the flight.

The airline needs to be better organized, if it wants to exercise bureaucratic rules, so that they can deny boarding.

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Response to Bernardo de La Paz (Reply #22)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:37 AM

28. they would not have been kicked off had they flown as they were ticketed - the infant as a lap baby

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Response to DrDan (Reply #28)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:33 AM

106. The family changed their mind about having the 2 year old as a lap baby and that's why

they bought a second ticket for the 18 year old to fly the day before.

Then they got to the gate and told the gate agent about their situation and the agent then accompanied them to their seats -- which was allowed under FAA regulations. A 2 year old wouldn't be on any watch list.

It was only afterwards when the stand-by passenger caused the airline to change their decision, and the cabin crew lied to the parents about children not being allowed to sit in car seats.

My guess is they had some airline employee who was flying standby that they suddenly wanted to accommodate. The plane hasn't been overbooked. That was reported in several articles.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-family-kicked-delta-flight-threatened-jail-refusing-give-toddler-n755141

Brian Schear said the family had initially purchased a ticket for their teenage son on the red-eye flight, but decided to send him home early so that their 2-year-old could have a seat on the plane. The couple was also traveling with a 1-year-old.

He said they let the ticket agent know about their situation at the gate, and that the agent accommodated the family to sit together.

Brian Schear said they boarded the plane without issue, but with other passengers on the standby list for the flight, he was then told by Delta agents that the 2-year-old had to give up his seat ó and then threatened with jail.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #106)

Sat May 6, 2017, 10:22 AM

113. make all the assumptions you like - but the seat was reserve in his older son't name - the older son

did not show - the seat was reassigned.

The family cannot make seat reassignments/transfers without Delta's involvement.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #113)

Sat May 6, 2017, 02:46 PM

124. Yet the airline has not disputed the parents account of the incident,, which was that the seat

WAS reassigned to the 2 year old at the gate.

But then the gate crew changed its mind, probably because the stand-by person showed up. (The plane wasn't overbooked.)

And the airline had it within its discretion to make the seat available to the 2 year old. There was no law preventing them from doing so. They just chose not to. The FAA does not bar the transfer of a ticket from one person to another, as long as a new ADULT passenger can show an ID. Delta had it within its own discretion to waive their own personal policy against transferring tickets.

Plus, we can hear the employee lying on the video about FAA regs. They lie about the FAA barring the transfer of tickets and they lie about toddlers not being allowed to sit in car seats. (Which has been legal for more than 20 years.)

Why did they lie? Whey didn't they simply say: "you don't have a boarding pass for that 2 year old, so you don't have a seat"? Why didn't say, "we told you before you couldn't have him sit there?"

Most likely because they knew it wasn't true and they had already told the family they could use the four seats, since there was room on the flight. But then the stand-by showed up, so they made up lies. All so they could sell the same ticket twice.


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-family-kicked-delta-flight-threatened-jail-refusing-give-toddler-n755141

Brian Schear said the family had initially purchased a ticket for their teenage son on the red-eye flight, but decided to send him home early so that their 2-year-old could have a seat on the plane. The couple was also traveling with a 1-year-old.

He said they let the ticket agent know about their situation at the gate, and that the agent accommodated the family to sit together.

Brian Schear said they boarded the plane without issue, but with other passengers on the standby list for the flight, he was then told by Delta agents that the 2-year-old had to give up his seat ó and then threatened with jail.




https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/05/05/delta-dispute-confusion-child-travel/101322860/

1. The name on the ticket

Delta Air Lines says on its website that tickets canít be transferred and names canít be changed.

The Transportation Security Administration said federal regulations donít prevent changing the name on a ticket Ė so long as the new passengerís name can be run through a database to confirm the person isn't a threat before the flight.

2. Car seat or lap baby? How children 2 and under are supposed to fly

Another facet of the dispute is that the Federal Aviation Administration ďstrongly urgesĒ that infants travel in a car seat for safety, although children up to age 2 can be held in a parentís lap.

Delta also recommends on its web site that parents buy a seat for children under 2 and put them in an approved child-safety seat.

In a video of the incident, somebody off camera mistakenly tells Schear that federal rules require children to remain in a parentís lap throughout a flight.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:11 AM

24. Delta apologists stun me.

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #24)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:26 AM

27. how dare one look at both sides of an issue prior to making comments

it's unAmerican

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Response to DrDan (Reply #27)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:55 AM

43. I agree: Contract law to enhance profits vs basic human decency.

Delta admitted they were wrong because basic human decency was shoved down their throat. The question is how you end up on the side AGAINST basic human decency.

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Response to kristopher (Reply #43)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:00 AM

46. you can put the rules in any context you like - but when you purchase a ticket for airline travel

there are rules (Delta rules, FAA rules, TSA rules) that must be followed.

If you don't like the rules, lobby to change them, do not fly, complain formally, whatever. But they are to be followed. That's life.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #46)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:05 AM

51. Delta had the legal flexibility to allow the parents to use that seat for the toddler and carseat.

Their own policy allows this for free if a seat is available. They should have decided it was available. They wouldn't have lost a single dollar with a compassionate decision, since the family HAD paid for the ticket.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #51)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:10 AM

58. the family could haved transferred the seat - but did not because it was

non-transferrable or they simply didn't.

The family contracted with Delta to fly with the infant on the lap. That is what they should have done.

How are the gate folks supposed to know the family had decided to put the child in the seat. They only see that the person who's name is on the reservation did not show and therefore did not board. Hence the seat was unoccupied. They gave it to a standby.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #58)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:14 AM

61. You still don't get it.

The airlines policy already says that if a family doesn't buy a ticket for a lap baby/child but a seat next to them is available, then he can sit in it. So the airline should have made the executive decision that that seat was available, instead of claiming their right to stick a stand-by passenger in that seat instead.

They wouldn't have lost a single dollar by letting the child use that seat, since the family had paid for it and wasn't refunded for it.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #61)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:20 AM

67. oh I get it . . . thank you very much

of course they can use it if available. Problem is, it wasn't available. It was assigned to a standby, hence no longer available. That assignment was not done by the cabin crew - but by gate staff.

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Response to DrDan (Reply #67)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:25 AM

70. No, they could have made the executive decision to assign it to the 2 year old.

They didn't have to assign it to the stand-by who hadn't been boarded yet.

The cabin crew is able to communicate with gate crew. In fact they communicate with the gate crew on EVERY flight. So all they had to do was explain the situation to the gate crew, and the gate crew could have made the smart decision that the seat would be assigned to the 2 year old whose family had already paid for the seat for the brother. Delta wouldn't have lost a single dollar this way.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #70)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:27 AM

73. of course they communicate - but the gate crew sees the seat as unoccupied as

the appropriate passenger did not show. So they assigned it.

The family contracted to fly with an infant on their lap. Why should they not be expected to do so?

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Response to DrDan (Reply #73)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:28 AM

76. They hadn't boarded the stand-by passenger yet, so they could have un-assigned it,

assuming you're even right about that. in any case, we know the stand-by person wasn't seated on the plane when this happened.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #76)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:30 AM

77. ok - you win

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Response to DrDan (Reply #46)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:20 AM

66. "...there are rules that must be followed" Really? MUST be followed?

How much input do passengers get in setting those rules?

It wasn't a collaboration.

The airlines and other corporate entities have bought the political process so we have no voice there.

I'd imagine a person with your outlook would be more comfortable with an authoritarian like Trump than among democratic minded citizens like those found on DU.

Delta admitted they were wrong, why can't you?

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Response to kristopher (Reply #66)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:22 AM

68. ridiculous

yes Delta admitted they were wrong - in their exchange with the family.

They were on solid-ground with the seat assignments.

See how I did that without insults?

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Response to DrDan (Reply #68)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:27 AM

74. If you consider an accurate description of your position to be an insult...

You might consider that your words do not match your ethics.

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Response to kristopher (Reply #74)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:28 AM

75. as I said - ridiculous

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Response to DrDan (Reply #75)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:34 AM

81. The only ridiculous act is the rampant authoritarianism you apparently endorse

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Response to kristopher (Reply #81)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:37 AM

83. is this your method of debate - can't address the facts, so insult?

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Response to DrDan (Reply #83)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:07 AM

95. So you don't consider belief structures to be real and subject to examination and discussion?

Most people do.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #24)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:09 AM

55. Thank you. Too many give corporations a free pass.

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Response to Cattledog (Reply #55)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:09 PM

130. Hilariously, one of the main Delta apologists was screaming about corporatists during the primary

Idk if it is a pro-corporate angle, a "this family have money to travel so f*ck them" angle, or a "he's not white so f*ck him" angle. It's sad that all three have been viable on DU these days.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:41 AM

30. I think the airline was on solid ground with this one.

If the older son did not check in for his ticket, then the airline had every right to sell the seat to someone else. Thus, the family could not put their toddler's car seat in it.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #30)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:52 AM

39. They handed over the son's ticket for the 2 year old. And the FAA allows substitutions,

only requiring ID for adults.

The FAA would allow this use of the seat. Delta got greedy, seeing the chance to make a little extra money.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #39)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:03 AM

48. The FAA may allow it, but I'm pretty sure no airline does.

Also, if the older son didn't check in, the airline wouldn't even know that the family had planned to use the seat, once on board. They would only know the seat was available.

Once the seat was sold, there was no way the airline could be flexible about it. The family just had to hold their child to avoid the cascade of events to follow.

Now they are reaping rewards from the whole incident, not because they were in the right as far as airline policies go (although I do sympathize with them; traveling with toddlers in your lap has to be nightmarish), but because people and/or media are eager to demonize airline companies following those recent incidents in which they acted really badly.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #48)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:08 AM

54. They ALL have the option to. They decided to hang onto their own policy no matter what,

even though the FAA would have allowed them to assign the seat to the 2 year old and his carseat.

You don't understand the FAA policy. It DOES allow for the substitution of a passenger as long as an adult being substituted provides ID. It doesn't require ID for a 2 year old.


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Response to pnwmom (Reply #54)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:11 AM

99. So what are they supposed to do? Kick off the poor standby passenger?

Who managed to get a seat because someone didn't check in?

The family should've followed the rules just like the rest of us do. I am fully aware that I can't just use someone else's ticket if that person can't make the flight. Maybe I should try it, make a big messy scene, and be rewarded when the airline wants to quell the uproar. I'll be sure and bring my cane and wear my cancer scarf.

This is only an issue because it makes a good headline. People need to think objectively, not emotionally.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #99)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:14 AM

102. The standby passenger didn't have to be kicked off. He was still at the gate. He could have been

told that he'd have to wait for the next flight to fly stand-by. That's the risk you take with stand-by rates.

This is ALSO an issue because airline employees can be heard on tape LYING about FAA regulations. That's not okay.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #48)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:31 AM

78. well said - and spot-on

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #48)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:10 AM

96. Airlines should be demonized regularly...

Until they quit treating their paying customers like cattle. People that pay to fly are the whole reasons these companies exist, yet people are repeatedly treated like they are an annoyance to airline crews. And make no mistake, this is on the local people doing this, and the only way to fix it from the top down, and that apparently takes bad publicity.

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #96)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:14 AM

101. Absolutely! But only when it is clearly deserved.

We demean ourselves and dilute the issue when we champion stories that don't fully merit outrage.

This goes for any issue that we care about.

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #101)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:16 AM

103. They lied about FAA regulations and they deserve to be penalized for that. n/t

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Response to Chemisse (Reply #30)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:09 AM

56. Delta Apologizes..

"We are sorry for the unfortunate experience our customers had with Delta, and we've reached out to them to refund their travel and provide additional compensation. Delta's goal is to always work with customers in an attempt to find solutions to their travel issues. That did not happen in this case and we apologize."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/05/527071539/delta-apologizes-to-family-that-was-kicked-off-a-plane-over-a-toddlers-seat?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170505

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:25 AM

71. If the family had tried to get the tix to match the 2-year-old

It would have required cancelling the older son's earlier ticket and then trying to buy a new ticket, with huge rebooking fees, not to mention the problem that the flight was oversold and they might not be able to get a new ticket at all. Airlines put up such huge barriers to re-assigning the ticket that I can understand why the family thought this would be easiest.

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Response to mainer (Reply #71)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:31 AM

79. And it was allowed by FAA regulations, which allow substitutions and only require

that adults provide ID.

Also, airline policy for lap babies/toddlers allow the child to be seated next to the parent IF the seat is available. They should have decided the seat was available, since the family had already paid for it once.

But they got greedy.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #79)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:16 AM

104. My SIL used to work for an airline

Who was the Standby Passenger they wanted to give the seat to? My SILL got free flights, but only as a Standby Passenger. An Airline Employee with "connections"?

Sounds very fishy to me.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:25 AM

72. "Failure to comply" seems to be all the rage these days.

 

"...Later in the video, a crew member tells Schear that his family has indeed been ejected from the plane for failure to comply. ďThat will be a federal offense and you and your wife will be in jail and your kids will be in foster care.Ē

When Schear asks what will happen to his family, who did not have accommodations for the night or another flight to get on, the representative tersely responds, ďat this point, you guys are on your own.Ē


We're breeding Nazis in this country. A crew member threatening jail, and foster care? What a disgrace.

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Response to Demit (Reply #72)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:37 AM

84. I know right.. Delta corp thought so too..

"We are sorry for the unfortunate experience our customers had with Delta, and we've reached out to them to refund their travel and provide additional compensation. Delta's goal is to always work with customers in an attempt to find solutions to their travel issues. That did not happen in this case and we apologize."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/05/527071539/delta-apologizes-to-family-that-was-kicked-off-a-plane-over-a-toddlers-seat?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170505

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Response to Cha (Reply #84)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:48 AM

87. At least they were smarter than United. They cut their losses quicker. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #87)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:54 AM

90. That's what I was thinking.

Wonder how much they offered the Schear Family for their "unfortunate" experience on Delta?

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 08:51 AM

89. Thank deregulation and the reduction of airlines it caused.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:13 AM

100. What this all boils down to is airlines have become so greedy that flying

 

nowdays is totally miserable. Not only the seats complaints but my other experience's with one of the top three airlines for mechanical problems has increased 50%. I have been flying twice a year since 2006 and having to wait for repairs at the boarding area or pulled back from the runway and having to board another plane.

In one instance, they couldn't get one of the thrust reversers to work. We waited around for a couple of hours as we watched the mechanics walk from one engine to the other comparing the differences while checking a manual. They finally allowed us on and we were able to make our 60 minute flight without landing problems.

On the way back home that night, I sat close to a pilot making one of those employee flights and I ask him about the thruster problem and he said what they did was fly on ONE ENGINE to make it to the destination where there were better repair facilities.

I had mixed emotions on that experience, one I made it to my appointment on time but this was the worst of several mechanical problems that have added to my mistrust of the airlines. Its just an hour flight that I may start driving.

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Response to Jim Beard (Reply #100)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:17 AM

105. Wow. I hope you wrote to the airline about that experience. That would be unnerving. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #105)

Sat May 6, 2017, 10:18 PM

154. I didn't know about it because it happened on the morning flight and I was told about it on the

 

late evening flight. The late night pilot told me Southwest was expanding and are buying newer ,larger jets for the mostly new long hauls and using up the older jets in the Texas hop around market.

Southwest isn't cheap anymore either. It isn't being run buy Herb Kelleher anymore.

https://www.freeenterprise.com/8-herb-kelleher-quotes-will-teach-you-everything-you-need-know-about-life/

Herb Kelleher

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:36 AM

107. Here is some additional key info.

So it wasn't just that Delta was lying about the car seat.

No wonder Delta apologized.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-family-kicked-delta-flight-threatened-jail-refusing-give-toddler-n755141

Brian Schear said the family had initially purchased a ticket for their teenage son on the red-eye flight, but decided to send him home early so that their 2-year-old could have a seat on the plane. The couple was also traveling with a 1-year-old.

He said they let the ticket agent know about their situation at the gate, and that the agent accommodated the family to sit together.

Brian Schear said they boarded the plane without issue, but with other passengers on the standby list for the flight, he was then told by Delta agents that the 2-year-old had to give up his seat ó and then threatened with jail.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/05/05/delta-dispute-confusion-child-travel/101322860/

1. The name on the ticket

Delta Air Lines says on its website that tickets canít be transferred and names canít be changed.

The Transportation Security Administration said federal regulations donít prevent changing the name on a ticket Ė so long as the new passengerís name can be run through a database to confirm the person isn't a threat before the flight.

2. Car seat or lap baby? How children 2 and under are supposed to fly

Another facet of the dispute is that the Federal Aviation Administration ďstrongly urgesĒ that infants travel in a car seat for safety, although children up to age 2 can be held in a parentís lap.

Delta also recommends on its web site that parents buy a seat for children under 2 and put them in an approved child-safety seat.

In a video of the incident, somebody off camera mistakenly tells Schear that federal rules require children to remain in a parentís lap throughout a flight.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #107)

Sat May 6, 2017, 09:59 AM

109. Remember the old adage "The customer is always right"...

Many here have sided with a huge corporate entity without ALL the facts.
This family deserves the benefit of the doubt until we know the whole story. A lot of people are enablers of corporatism.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #107)

Sat May 6, 2017, 10:21 AM

112. Wow. Delta really screwed up on this one.

So the family did inform the ticket agent. The family had every right to insist their baby remain in that seat.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 10:10 AM

110. Seems like this could have been handled better.

We are letting technicalities overrule common sense.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:00 PM

127. .....And their greed just paid for this 2 year old through college

Yeah, lawsuit. Big "make it go away" settlement with gag order. Fines from the FAA.

Nothing to see here, folks, just another day in corporate America where money is speech, corporations are alive, and people are silenced like they're already dead.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:10 PM

131. Seems like all of these airlines need to do a better job training

their front-line employees. They are all very large companies (and now mostly the products of huge, complex mergers), and in some cases the misbehaving employees are actually employees of a contractor, a code-share or regional airline. While it's not easy to manage a very large work force, clearly they all need to get their shit together and make sure the employees who have direct contact with passengers know the pertinent rules of their airline, the TSA and the FAA. They should also be trained how to handle and manage contentious situations, since some passengers can be pretty obnoxious, too (I've seen gate agents subjected to really abusive and completely undeserved behavior by passengers). Delta handled this incident much better at the corporate level than United did by promptly issuing an apology and offering compensation, but better training and management of front-line employees would seem to be in order for all of them.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 03:39 PM

137. The parents finally agreed to fly with the kid in their lap

 

they cooperated but still got kicked off the flight? WTF?

when Delta suddenly realized it could make triple the money with the stand-by passengers (by reselling three empty seats) they changed their mind and kicked the family off, threatening them with arrest if they didn't get off the plane. nice racket these airlines are running, they are run by thugs and crooks plain and simple. John Gotti would be proud.

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Response to gyroscope (Reply #137)

Sat May 6, 2017, 05:09 PM

144. Yup. They got to resell 4 seats. Quite a racket for them. n/t

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 05:27 PM

147. And the GOP is bragging about how they killed regulations.

Expect more of this shit in police state America.

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 06:48 PM

152. Great new video game idea: Sim-Airline, for people who love to torture other people. n/t

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Response to DetlefK (Original post)

Sat May 6, 2017, 07:18 PM

153. Seems like nearly every airline has a story like this

 

You'd think a memo would gone around that says that if a passenger makes it onto the plane, and puts up a fuss, just leave them be. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong at that point.

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