Lecturing Clinton About 'Taking Responsibility' For Her Defeat is Bizarre - Josh Marshall

[DonViejo]

By JOSH MARSHALL Published MAY 8, 2017 9:26 AM

As you know, we now have a roiling, renewed debate over whether a mix of Russian hacking and James Comey’s final week intervention in the November election shifted the balance in Donald Trump’s favor. Even more, it’s a public debate over whether Hillary Clinton should keep claiming this is so or just, in one side’s view, own up to her failed campaign and stop making excuses. Plenty of others have argued this case on the merits, particularly Nate Silver looking at Comey’s intervention and its effect on polls in the final week of the campaign. Others have delved into psychological analyses. But I want to make a different point.

We can’t run real election simulations or know how alternative histories turned out. Relatedly, I will leave to others whether it’s wise or unwise for Hillary Clinton to keep talking about the causes of her defeat. But here’s the issue in my mind: If you step back from the particulars and personalities involved, it almost defies belief that anyone thinks a candidate who lost under these circumstances wouldn’t keep talking about it basically forever.

Let’s consider what I believe are the relevant points.

First: Donald Trump’s electoral college victory turned out to be substantial. But it was based on fewer than 100,000 votes spread across a handful of states. In other words, it was extremely close and any number of small factors could have made the difference.

Second: The FBI Director broke all precedent and DOJ guidelines to announce a criminal investigation into what proved to be the losing candidate just over a week before the election. There was little reason to believe the purported new evidence would lead to any criminal charges or indeed even any substantial new evidence. And it turned out that the ‘investigation’ was based on nothing. The entire blow up turned out to be based on nothing and knowing what we know now about what investigators and Comey knew at the time suggest he had little reason to think there was anything there.

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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/lecturing-clinton-about-taking-responsibility-for-her-defeat-is-bizarre

[niyad]

1. she is a woman, of course she is supposed to take on all the responsibility, and shut up.

in patriarchy, that is what women are supposed to do.

[DURHAM D]

2. Yes. Uppity women need to shut up and take it. nt

[Turn CO Blue]

5. This.

[Blue_Tires]

7. Especially since McCain, Romney, etc never had to...

[Eliot Rosewater]

26. Bingo...America doesnt deserve Hillary, we didnt deserve Obama.

We deserve to be turned back 100 years in every way and we will be.

[samnsara]

28. i agree

[athena]

27. Exactly. "Shut up" being the key phrase there.

Misogynists, male and female, think women should know our place and keep our mouths shut. The smarter we are, the more we're supposed to fade into the background.

[NastyRiffraff]

54. She didn't BEG for forgiveness

She should have knelt in sackcloth and ashes before the Great White Males. And even that wouldn't have been enough.

[niyad]

59. and cut off all her hair. I mean, really. . .

[NYC Liberal]

60. Yep. And she was also told to do the same even when she WON.

Plenty of people said that, even though she had won the nomination by millions of votes, she had to adopt the losing candidate's platform, cater to his supporters and beg for their votes, and generally be conciliatory. Even though she WON.

I cannot recall any male candidate ever being told to do that.

[niyad]

61. sadly, you are absolutely correct.

[geek tragedy]

3. Why does Clinton need to talk about it at all?

Having her talk about it does nothing to help the party turn its attention to the future, regardless of what she's going to say.

[delisen]

29. I welcome her analysis. Women's voice in the public sphere

have been muffled since before the beginning of the republic. The parade of all-male presidents hasn't really gotten us to a great place.

I would welcome hearing male presidents and candidates talk about their failures and the reasons for same.

Let the people speak.

[niyad]

46. "those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it"

[brush]

53. She hasn't said anything for months and comes out finally and mentions the huge elephant ...

in the room — Comey/Putin/Assange — and these clowns say she keeps talking about it.

I'm glad she talked about it. We can't let the repugs keep cheating and not say anything about it.

[spanone]

4. amen, Josh

K&R...

[mythology]

6. Marshall shouldn't distinctly limit the Comey announcement

As not under Clinton's control. She at the very least knew she would consider running for President. She also had to know there is a reputation of shady behavior and how much Republicans hate her. If she had been 100% in compliance and not had the email server, the Comey issue doesn't exist.

Given Silver's statistical evidence, it is the key factor. The Russian stuff is a distraction. In spite of the Russian efforts, Clinton was well ahead in polling up until Comey's October announcement.

[dsc]

8. and Kerry is to blame for the Purple Heart stuff too

[delisen]

34. Kerry should have known that Republicans would lie about his war service

and should have know that the party was unprepared to rise up in anger against the the slander and propaganda. He should have known that Ken Blackwell was going to suppress the votes of Democrats by any means necessary.

Gore was a real problem. He should have known that the election in Florida was fixed, the the Republican Secretary of State Katherine Harris was was going to turn her office over to Republican operatives and lie about it, breathlessly.
He should have known that Tom DeLay's staffers were going to fake a riot by pretending to a grassroots uprising of Republican citizens demanding the recount should be shut down.

He should have known that Jack Welch, puffed up corporate GE exec was going to muscle his way into the news room at NBC and demand the news staff change the facts to say Bush was winning in order to score the all important last minute psychological advantage to put Gore on the defensive.

He should have known that the newsroom wimps would cave to the Big Boss's demand.

Pardon my sarcasm.

Each time Congress goes back to business as usual--they see it as a football game. they have a role to play either way This time they are the minority, next time they will be the majority. A few of them may lose seats but the games is still be played.

Playing the game, being good sports has brought us to the brink. Lives are at stake, democracy is at stake.

If Hillary Clinton is willing to get out there and cut through the bullshit to say "This is why I lost" and this is what I intend to do about the issues I passionately care about. ----I intend to listen and to cheer her on.

...and a resounding Nay to anyone, Democrat or Republic, who want her and us to shut up to make playing their game easier.

[StevieM]

13. I agree that the Russian stuff pale in comparison to what Comey did.

The hacked emails were relevant in that they made her look kind of bad and put an even darker shadow on Comey's fraudulent actions.

I don't agree that there is no FBI investigation without the email server. They still would have made a big deal about classified information, which was a problem at State long before HRC was Secretary. And, of course, Chaffetz would have picked something else to double down on. Maybe the Clinton Foundation.

[That Guy 888]

9. Hillery Clinton was ultimately responsible for her loss.

She ran a weak campaign, but she's not alone in that.

Walter Mondale was responsible for his loss (he was slaughtered by Reagan).

Michael Dukakis was responsible for his loss.

Al Gore was responsible for his loss.

John Kerry was responsible for his loss.

All of those Democratic candidates chose to run bad campaigns, either how they presented themselves against their specific opponent or against the "mood" of the country.

At least I don't have to see post after post weeping about Mondale, Dukakis or Kerry.

Al Gore was much more responsible for his loss (certifying the Florida election results), but I don't see too many "zomg NADER!11!" posts these days.

[loyalsister]

10. Miscalculating political weaknesses lies in the realm of political malpractice

There were so many. 20+ yrs on the national stage alone should have made her think twice. There was so much that could and did come back to bite her. Deciding to run with so many political weaknesses was a bad idea. It would have been more responsible to collaborate with Bernie and mentor Martin O'Malley.

But, he is still responsible for not being a stronger candidate during the primary.

[That Guy 888]

15. Self-knowledge is difficult, and most unsuccessful campaigns are rooted in that.

Trying to get GOP voters to flip should be(please, please, please) finally proven to be a losing tactic. I'm not a Clinton fan, but choosing between her and Drumpf was a no-brainer. If moderate Republican voters chose a candidate as bad as Trump over Clinton, then there's little hope in going after Republican voters as much as Hillary Clinton did.

I almost put this in the "Reply Title" but thought it would defeat the purpose: be very careful posting about the 2016 Primary, people are still very sensitive and both sides have alert stalkers out. The Hillary Clinton fan base here also alert on "bashing Democratic public figures" so also be careful how you criticize Clinton.

[LanternWaste]

17. You make many, many unsupported allegations.

You make many, many unsupported allegations. Also, you may want to review the spelling for Clinton's given name, and then blame your inaccuracy on an alleged typo...

Ad I'm pretty certain Loyal Sister is aware of the social dynamics in addition to the terms of service, though speaking of that to your own may be more effective.

[That Guy 888]

22. Other than my mistake re: HillEry - HillAry I have no idea what you're talking about.

[stevenleser]

49. Yes, that person makes many unsupported allegations while dismissing the one firm fact

before us that has an impact on the discussion. Hillary got three million more votes than Trump.

[loyalsister]

25. It's not necessarily all on her

There were groups and various people who really wanted her to run and began pushing for it early. They also neglected to evaluate important factors.
I think a refusal to self criticize candidate and party strategy is not very healthy. It's like Elizabeth Warren's comments. No doubt, she talked to other Democrats before publicly discussing her thoughts on the administration's misreading of the economy. I hope Obama and Hillary are open to questioning and criticism and I think they probably are.

[That Guy 888]

36. I think those people confused the publics hatred of GOP propaganda (RWNM) that attacked the Clintons

...with a deep love of the Clintons and Bill's triangulation.

I hope Obama and Hillary are open to questioning and criticism and I think they probably are.

I think they are, but some of their supporters are too emotionally invested to see any criticism as anything other than an attack. After Russia's hacking and trolling I can see why, but it isn't helpful.

[loyalsister]

41. That confusion is really good point

I talked to people who didn't feel economic love in the 90s or during Obama's administration. Some went to college wound up stuck managing a fast food restaurant or some other low paying job. They were still struggling with student loan payments.
Unable to send their kids to college, they now have adult kids children are having trouble feeding their own kids. The common denominator in their economic nightmares was not going to get their vote.

I keep hearing the voice of Jerry Seinfeld's mother. "Who doesn't like you? How could anyone not like you?"

[ismnotwasm]

11. Why are you comparing white men

To the first woman candidate who has actually had a shot, ever?

[StevieM]

12. None of those people were up by 8 points with 11 days to go before receiving

the ultimate October Surprise from a corrupt FBI Director determined to help the other party win.

[JHan]

14. acknowledging the effect of Comey's letter and his poor judgement...

means they can't heap as much hate on Clinton.

It's so transparent.

[That Guy 888]

16. Irrelevant if she had run a better campaign. Look at her record, look at his record.

It shouldn't have ever been that close.

[LanternWaste]

18. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

Post hoc ergo prompter hoc. Another cute little bumper sticker (and a logical fallacy to wit) you'll rationalize not supporting with any objective evidence.

[That Guy 888]

23. Interesting label, can you support it? n/t

[stevenleser]

48. You are the one who made the assertion to which we are all responding. You need to prove it.

We're not responsible for disproving an unsupported thesis.

[StevieM]

19. I think she ran a good enough campaign to be up by about 8 points with 11 days to go.

The issue was never how good a campaign she was running, at least not by traditional metrics.

The election was all about an email server. Republicans convinced the American people that HRC having an email system that she used for work, as well as personal use, proved that she was a bad human being.

Given that reality, I think she ran a great campaign in oder to be as far ahead in the polls before the FBI Director intervened in order to help her opponent, and issued the most devastating October Surprise in American history.

[murielm99]

20. And she did win by more than three million

popular votes. I don't care where those people live. The country, or most of it, showed a clear preference for Hillary.

[That Guy 888]

24. She didn't campaign enough in the states that Obama won and she lost.

According to what I've read (non-right wing, non-russian) Clinton's campaign was chasing non-existent moderate republican votes to hit it out of the park. As per Schumer: “For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”

[stevenleser]

47. Which is always easy to say with Monday morning quarterbacking.

Which all of your analysis is.

[stevenleser]

50. See JHan's #14 nt

[brush]

55. Nah, she got 3m more votes. Comey and repugs cheated. I know it's hard for you, but just admit it.

Repugs cheat.

The only legitimately elected repug president since Eisenhower was Daddy Bush.

Nixon and Reagan both cheated and committed treason as well with the Vietnamese and Iranians respectively to get in.

W Bush cheated in Florida in 2000 and Ohio in 2004 and trump just finished cheating in 2016.

Their cheating has drastically altered the history of this country — negatively — wars, housing bust, the great recession, trump in office. Should I go on?

[obamanut2012]

56. Except she did run a good campaign, with an excellent message

I know you are very concerned about this, but you are 100% WRONG.

[delisen]

35. It a new world with new rules. Men may cave but women don't.

I'd say prepare to get used to it.

When the number of people in the public sqare more than double you can't expect things to stay the same.

[That Guy 888]

38. It's not about caving - the impression I have is that Clinton feels she made no mistakes.

That her loss is basically because of Comey, the Russians, Bernie Sanders and his "bros", sexism and the right-wing noise machine. They are factors, but much of that was a given before the campaign started.

[delisen]

40. Thanks for explaining. I haven't heard all that in what she said.

Clinton did mention Comey's announcement early on as a main factor and Senator Reid stated his fury (because he knew what Comey was holding back on Russia and Trump. (the rest of us were still in the dark).

I think that we still don't know the extent of the Russian involvement.

I don't know why Democrats, privy to the information about Russian involvement early on, let Mitch McConnell be the decider on letting the people know this vital information!!!

McConnell who blocked legislation for 6 years, and refused to consider a Supreme Court nominee?

What did Clinton say about Sanders? I just heard her joke about it in answer to a specific question in an interview.

I've heard Sanders blame Democratic elites and a number of things. Surely in this landscape the candidate herself has a right to voice her opinion.

I want to hear her analysis. I've listened to analyses of many other in and out of the party.

As for misogyny I myself had not been prepared for the extent of it. I think Clinton's comments have been mild. She has spoken in the past on why it seem easier for woman to rise to the top job in parliamentary systems. The PM gets selected by the the small group who know you strength and weaknesses.

[That Guy 888]

43. I know I'm wrong on this, but I really wish someone in our gov't had been willing

...to speak out about Trump and his campaign's deep involvement with Putin and Russia. I know it would be committing a crime, but it might have prevented the Trump Presidency. Especially after Comey did what he did. That guy (Comey) hasn't stopped smirking since (unless that's the face he makes when he's gassy/mildly nauseous).

Comey should have either revealed both or (to use his words) concealed both.

As I understand it, Bernie and the vast majority of his supporters voted for Hillary in the General.

[obamanut2012]

57. yawn

[standingtall]

21. I don't know why anybody would work so hard to legitimize Trump

by insisting Hilary take all the blame for her loss, unless of course their republicans. Makes no sense for Democrats to behave in such a manor.

[That Guy 888]

30. It's more about not repeating the same mistakes in 2020 - like wasting time trying to woo

non-existent "moderate" Republicans who will vote for a sensible Democratic President when their own party nominates an ignorant sex-offender, crook whose mouth is apparently best used as a **** holster for Putin.

[JHan]

39. based on your posts thus far, for you, it's about blaming her and blaming her alone.

[That Guy 888]

42. We see things differently.

[stevenleser]

51. Right, we're reading what you wrote. You are claiming you didnt write it. nt

[obamanut2012]

58. Yup

[musette_sf]

31. Lecturing Clinton About 'Taking Responsibility' For Her Defeat:

Now *where* have I seen this before??

[img][/img]

[treestar]

32. Good points

Her haters want it to be all her fault.

[Progressive dog]

33. Josh Marshall is right

We were cheated out of having a President who would have worked for us, rather than for himself. Comey has earned a place in American history by his abuse of his position.

[Takket]

37. where the media fails is..........

When Hillary Clinton says "Comey cost me the election", what the media is supposed to be doing is INVESTIGATING the claim and reporting the facts to we the people. That is how the 4th estate is supposed to work. Don't tell me that she isn't taking responsibility or that she is "claiming" things. Same thing with Trump. Don't tell me he is "claiming" 2 million illegals voted. TELL ME WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Investigate the FACTS. Do your own analysis of the results. Talk to Nate Silver and polling experts. Talk to mathematicians. Tell me WHAT THEY SAY.

This is why journalism is dying in this country.

[ehrnst]

44. No one expected Al Gore to apologize, and no one lectured him about winning even less than she did.

Along with giving him a pass for many things that she was pilloried for....

Sexism. Plain and simple.

[Nonhlanhla]

45. Translation:

Joshn Marshall: "Stop the ritual flogging of a woman in public."

Hillary Clinton has taken responsibility for her loss: she said openly that she had made mistakes in the campign. She's said it repeatedly. Apparently she has not said it enough for those who have a weird, twisted desire to see a woman flogged in public. She ALSO said what we all know to be true: that Russian interference and Comey played a significant role in her loss, significant enough to essentially have caused the loss. And this must be true, because even a MAN has confirmed it (one by the name of Nate Silver).

But no, the misogynists want more, more, more. Flog her, beat her to a pulp, brand a letter on her forehead, throw rotten tomatoes at her, burn her on the stake... And when that is done, then we can turn our attention to other women, like Elizabeth Warren, whom Lakoff (that venerable progressive) has recently called "shrill." Let the new onslaught begin. Burn the witches.

Oh, sarcasm thingy...

[Gothmog]

52. I agree with Josh Marshall