Is calling people "far left idiots" a way to promote dialogue?

[guillaumeb]

I am a Sanders supporter, and I find the "blame Bernie" or "blame the far left" or "blame Jill Stein" posts to be far too simplistic.

In all of the finger pointing, any argument must take note of the following tiny factors:

1) Systematic GOP voter suppression. Think Interstate Cross check, think voter ID suppression, think closing polling places, think endless GOP schemes to make voting difficult.

2) A conservative corporate media that dominates and frames the debate.

3) GOP gerrymandering that nearly insures continued GOP dominance.

4) Talk radio. Nearly all conservative.

So when we talk about why the GOP won the Electoral College, it helps to remember the real reasons rather than attempting to blame the nearly non-existent far left.

[djsunyc]

1. idiots is a terrible word

and they are not idiots.

but they are guilty of not looking at the big picture and getting over their own sh t on election day.

[guillaumeb]

3. And many people are guilty of not focusing on the real reasons

for what happened in 2016. And 2000. And 2004.

[Cha]

12. 3rd party assholes who LIE to get the Voters sucked

in to screw with elections are worse than idiots. They're selfish assholes who don't give a shit about the Planet or the People.

You can deny it all you want but they own a big chunk o trump.

[guillaumeb]

13. In my view, Jill Stein is a self-promoter.

But Stein did not suppress the vote, or gerrymander the House Districts.

[Cha]

14. pawn for putin, stein, LIED her damn head Off to get suckers

to vote for her lying ass.. it changed the vote in critical states.

[guillaumeb]

18. True, or at least arguably so.

But Stein did not gerrymander one District, nor did she eliminate one voter from the rolls.

[Cha]

26. Who the hell said she did.. stein FUBARED Enough

on her own.

[redstateblues]

32. Sorry- there is no defense for a supposed "progressive" who votes for Stein

Whatever pejorative you choose will fit. Dinner with Putin? Give me a fucking break.

[Cha]

37. Exactly.

[melman]

53. Why so hostile?

[NurseJackie]

54. LOL

[Cha]

63. Yeah, why have any animosity toward jill ratfucker stein?

she and ssarandon only sit on their million$$$$$$ while those who aren't cushioned are fucked by the big chunk of trump that they own.

[Cha]

62. Why do you need to ask?

[melman]

64. Just as I thought

[Cha]

65. Right.. Just as you "thought". lol

[LanternWaste]

72. Who specifically is arguing Stein removed voters from the rolls?

Who specifically is arguing Stein removed voters from the rolls and gerrymandered districts?

No one? Then let's drop that particular red-herring.

[Gothmog]

81. Stein and the JPR idiots did swing enough votes to potentially affect the POTUS race

The issue of voting rights is an area where I volutneer in the real world. Gerrymandering has no effect on the POTUS eelction and this is a strawman argument

[guillaumeb]

85. Gerrymandering is one aspect of the GOP playbook.

As is massive spending and media control.

As to voting rights, voter suppression is arguably responsible for narrow Trump wins in numerous states. Blame Stein, or the mythical far left if you wish, but calling progressives idiots is not generally a way to influence people in a positive way.

[Gothmog]

87. Gerrymandering was not a part of the POTUS race where Stein and the BOB had their main effect

I volunteer a great deal on voter protection issues. I trained and supervised 200+ poll watchers last cycle to combat some bad information being given out on the Texas voter id law. Gerrymandering affects state and local races but not the POTUS race and talking about gerrymandering with respect to the POTUS race is the classic example of a straw man.

I testified about the 2013 Texas redistricting maps and have been talking to the counsel for NAACP and MALC about trying to get the three judge panel in the Texas redistricting case to find intentional discrimination in my county. Right now, the Democrats are likely to pick up three to seven congressional seats and at least ten state house seats due to the redistricting lawsuit.

There is a study that voter id may have given trum the win in Wisconsin but that study may have some issues https://electionlawblog.org/?p=92447 Even with the court ruling in the Texas case there were numerous voters who could have voted but did not due to the Texas voter suppression law https://electionlawblog.org/?p=92423

Again, the stein supporters and BOB types discouraged sufficient votes to help Trump win. Gerrymandering has nothing to do with the POTUS election.

[mhw]

107. Everytime I see that pic of Flynn at Putin's dinner table..STEIN is there.

Why was she with that group?

All I want to know.

[LexVegas]

2. Alt left. nt

[Kahuna7]

68. Nailed it! nt

[CincyDem]

4. Certainly not idiots. Intelligent, gullible purists maybe but not idiots. n/t

[guillaumeb]

5. Again, too simple and ignores the real reasons.

Some of which I mentioned.

[ProfessorGAC]

70. Think You're Missing A Factor In Your Summary

While those elements were clearly major contributors, that only really helps in a nationwide election if the race stays close enough to "steal".

People who ignored the big picture and stayed home or wasted a vote on someone like Stein or Johnson pulled the numbers close enough for the chicanery to have the impact it did.

If they got off their couches, went and voted if only to keep this buffoon from winning, gerrymandering and voter suppression wouldn't have been enough to tip the outcome.

[guillaumeb]

84. Agreed with your last point. eom

[tenderfoot]

6. I think the "far left" were really right wing trolls

especially at the DNC

[WoonTars]

7. Apparently quite a few think so...

...further perpetuating the circular firing squad mantra...

If Twitler's latest actions can't bring us together, we might as well fucking forget winning back the House next year, and 2020? Don't make me laugh...

We need to knock this divisive shit off, and start pulling TOGETHER for the future....while there still is one to be had...

[guillaumeb]

8. Agreed.

Even the Russia connection, as serious as it is, is not the reason that Trump is in the White House. The GOP does not believe in a 2 party system and they will do anything to retain power. President Obama obviously believed that the GOP was seriously interested in negotiating.

[WoonTars]

10. ...and that was his biggest failing...treating them like responsible adults...

....an admirable intention, but ultimately really short-sighted...

[SticksnStones]

73. You left out "in my opinion"

"Even the Russian connection , as serious as it is, is not the reason that Trump is in the White House"

This is a rather disingenuous statement. It conveniently dismisses much of the details circling the ongoing investigations.

It draws a premature conclusion that at present, I'd argue, is not successfully defensible.

Does the Democratic Party have room to evolve, grow, improve? To be sure, yes.

I question the motives of yet another 'Sanders and his supporters are misunderstood' post.

Move on. We're on to greater perils than whether the left edge of the Democratic Party gets enough respect.

[Historic NY]

9. What did Obama call them?

[guillaumeb]

11. I am uncertain of your question. eom

[bahrbearian]

24. What did Rahm call them?

[NewDealProgressive]

15. Sorry, if you're on the left and voted for Stein, you're an idiot.

If you didn't see this coming, you're an idiot. If you thought the two were the same, you're an idiot.

I'm as Bernie as you can get but I had zero problem switching my support to Clinton because....duh.

I think "idiots" is the perfect term for people who helped make this happen.

[guillaumeb]

19. But the main reason that Trump won the Electoral College

is not being addressed by posts that attack progressives. Infighting only serves to demoralize.

[Bradical79]

86. Jill Stein was part of it.

As are her voters. They contribute to all of this. They work tirelessly to spread a "both sides are the same" fallacy, demonize many Democrats (including Clinton), all while working with foreign right wing fascists. They like playing the leftist, all while contributing to right wing gains.

[Shandris]

16. No, it's pushed by our enemies and useful D-Krugerians who haven't clued in...

...to the fact that this forum is under a moderate intensity attempt to radicalize it.

If the post is one of those 'Hurr durr rawr I hate you phuck youuuuuu!!!!", it's one of the above. If it's one of those 'EHRMAGAWD I DON'T CARE I JUST HATE HATE HATE (group)!!!!!', it's one of the above. One of those 'OHHHH YOU DAMN BERNIE BOBS AND JILL STEINERS!', yup...it's one of those.

In fact, given how much nuance is a known word and philosophy that is widely accepted and utilized by us, ANY post that contains divisiveness without nuance is, by definition, one of the above imo, and that's how I parse any post I read.

Know your enemies and those who want to own your mind. https://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5

[wasupaloopa]

17. So those of us who felt that BoB or Jill Stein supporters helped to hurt our chances

should just forget about it?

Seems after every election loss we are in the same place. Nothing learned and nothing to gain.

I feel the same way I did after the 2014 mid terms. We all here (I was here) pledged we would not stay home.

Then when we learned the turnout was very low we heard "there was nothing to vote for".

I for one do not forgive and forget. There is nothing I can do but to support our side against the right but I just can't blow off what things went down.

[guillaumeb]

21. Allow me to respond:

Blame 2010 and 2014 on low Democratic turnout. A fact. We can debate the why, but Democrats do not vote in non-Presidential elections in large numbers.

And voter suppression is the reason that over 100,000 Wisconsin voters were unable to vote in 2016. Do not blame Russia, or Jill Stein, or Sanders supporters. Blame the GOP, and a Democratic Party that did not focus on the voter suppression.

[wasupaloopa]

60. It is all our responsibility to vote.

If we voted in numbers as some other countries do the interference in our elections would not be as strong as you make it out to be.

We are responsible losing elections.

I really have no patience with what you say.

[Blue_true]

110. I agree with you. Voter suppression exists, but can be overcome.

People that vote third party or work to weaken those on their side use voter suppression as a crutch after the shit they helped create hits the fan.

[wasupaloopa]

111. you are right I think

[countryjake]

20. And you left out the #1 reason...Racism

Nobody has a right to compel another to vote for a person or thing for which they hold no confidence...that was the challenge while trying to get out the vote last Fall. And when practically half the population has lost faith that our government represents them, that's what gives the sector who literally run to the polls just to take something away from their neighbors, those asshats whose only desire is to punish some "other", the reactionaries get the win.

I doubt that very many actually know or regularly read anything that the real far left in this country has to say.

It was racists who put the fascist in our White House. Get out and just talk to a Trump supporter, if you dare.

[guillaumeb]

22. Great point.

Racism was a large factor, to be sure. The Reagan Democrats, like the Trump Democrats, are often motivated by racial prejudice.

[WellDarn]

25. This

[Cha]

27. But stein had a right to LIE her damn head off about

Hillary and trump to get the 3rd party SUCKERS to vote for her in critical states.

[ZX86]

44. Lying in politics?

Is this your first time at the rodeo?

If we as Democrats completely collapse as a party because someone in another party "lied their head off" we're not going to win many elections.

Jill Stein can lie. It's legal. You're really going to have to get over that. Harping on it doesn't get Democrats elected. I'm laser focused on getting Democrats elected.

[Cha]

61. jstein's a fucking 3rd party LIAR.. fucking Pawn for Putin.

[bettyellen]

90. But she snookered lefties to accept those lies- that's the issue. They gave the media a sideshow and

Some are still doing it. Suckers.

[WellDarn]

41. I might have said this already

But there has also been this focus on poor whites who ride around in pick ups with full sized Confederate flags flying from the bed. The racists who are killing us at the polls are the MUCH LARGER VOTING BLOCK of those upper middle class white folks that are too "genteel" to call us ****** and who voted for Obama in 2008 but who were so outraged when Obama said that racism and white privilege are still outcome determinative.

If anyone deserves the hate being thrown around here, it's them.

[countryjake]

51. Welcome to DU!

I've found that any honest discussion on the existence of white privilege here in our country (and further, the effect our system of white supremacy has on the rest of the planet), be it online or face to face, will quickly degenerate into raised hackles, indignant harrumphs, and eventual shit-flinging.

And that's more often than not true with the flag waving trucks (who probably already have so many felonies on their records, they couldn't afford to vote anyway), the holier-than-thou folk who delight in preaching love thy neighbor (but not THAT neighbor), the seriously earnest politicos (who love nothing better than a good protest march, just not if they get too wild or LOUD), and the many passive-aggressive online junkies sitting on their asses hoping to change the World (so long as they wouldn't ever have to sacrifice a bit of their time or treasures).

It truly is a sad and disturbing reflection of this nation.

[WellDarn]

23. There's pretty much no doubt

That a vote for Stein was pretty darn stupid, especially in hindsight.

On the other hand, only 1% of voters were Stein voters while 18% of upper middle class white women and an even larger percentage of upper middle class white men who voted for Obama in 2008 abandoned OUR candidate in 2016.

I wonder why ALL the focus is on excoriating that 1% instead of the 20%+ of upper middle class white folks who were every bit as stupid.

[guillaumeb]

28. Exactly. And welcome to DU.

All of the attacking of the Jill Stein mouse ignores the GOP voter suppression and gerrymandering elephants in the room.

[JTFrog]

35. You sure have shown a lot of concern for those who rat-fucked us.

Go search DU and you will find OP after OP about stupid upper middle class white folks.

It's not all about Stein. It's about those who went so far "left" they embraced the worst right wingers imaginable. All because of their racism and misogyny. Fuck those people. Of course we should talk about it, identify them and never allow the useful idiots to fuck us over again.

[WellDarn]

43. 1%

Heck, there are so few of them that we can do more than identify them, we can name them.

You go ahead and focus on screaming at that 1% though. It might eventually prove cathartic.

Me, I going to focus on finding ways to put Democrats in office.

[JTFrog]

49. Gee thanks for your permission.

And welcome back.

[WellDarn]

71. This is really sad

and untrue.

I'm sorry you and others are unable to explain (and/or be honest enough to discuss) why there are literally thousands of posts (primarily from a dozen or so members) talking about a 1% segment of the electorate and less than 1/1000 as many about the 10 times larger Democratic-leaning segments of the electorate who abandoned Obama AND our party to vote for Trump even after we pandered to them.

I'm sorry you have to turn to this.

[NurseJackie]

77. ...

[Warren DeMontague]

29. Some people ONLY show up to DU to try and pick fights with other people.

It's always been that way, as long as I can remember. The rationales change but the underlying toxic behavior doesn't.

[guillaumeb]

31. It does seem that way.

For the 3 years that I have read and participated.

But ignoring the GOP's role in creating a natural GOP Congress is a recipe for further irrelevance. Any talk about the more liberal new generation is silly if that new generation is not allowed to vote.

[Warren DeMontague]

34. Here's a big story many seem to have missed:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/us/politics/john-h-thompson-quits.html?_r=0

worth keeping our eyes on that ball, I think.

[WellDarn]

45. Major major story

Apparently he was told that the Census Bureau wasn't going to be funded at a level at which it can do its job.

[ZX86]

30. It's a failed strategy if you want to win elections.

It didn't work in 2016. It won't work in the 2018 or 2020. There will always be 3rd parties and free speech. Unless you are advocating making 3rd parties and free speech illegal you're spinning your wheels and wasting valuable time that could be used to win elections for Democrats.

This is serious business. Virtually everyone I know is struggling one way or another. We need to get Democrats elected. We've got to keep our eyes on prize. Not nurse our bruised ego at the expense of everything else.

If you're not part of the solution, you're a part of the problem. And the problem is not calling enough people "idiots". It's getting more people to vote Democratic.

[guillaumeb]

33. Agreed. It is inspiring people with a message,

and ensuring that those people have access to the polling places. Both are necessary.

[ZX86]

50. That's how Obama won.

That's how Democrats always win. An inspiring message. We need to get back to that ASAP!

[elleng]

36. Not only 'simplistic,' but also

inflammatory, imo.

[guillaumeb]

40. As if the far-left were ever a factor in US politics. eom

[elleng]

42. Oh THAT TOO!

[The_Casual_Observer]

38. Continuing to defend Jill Stein doesn't do much to promote dialog.

Neither does promoting bogus tales about Clinton uranium deals.

It goes both ways.

[guillaumeb]

39. I have never personally defended Stein.

I feel she is a poseur.

I also feel that the Democratic Party leadership fails to appreciate the threat that the current GOP leadership poses to democracy.

[WellDarn]

48. If you are not

conflating defending the tripe Stein was pushing and stating the undeniable fact that Stein was about the least of our worries, I agree.

As for anyone promoting tales of secret uranium deals, well, no qualifier there, that is messed up no matter how you cut it. Has Alex Jones been posting on DU?

[brer cat]

46. Every factor on your list has been discussed many times.

It is simplistic to assume those 4 points are all that are relevant to the discussion.

[Foamfollower]

47. Not really, but the far left idiots aren't worth attempting to have a dialogue with.

2000 and 2016 both showed the folly of even attempting it.

[BainsBane]

52. I didn't see any blaming Bernie

I saw condemnation of the pieces of shit who refused to vote for Clinton. What I want to know is why some of are more concerned about attacks on fascists than Democrats? I don't buy the dialogue excuse. For all the talk about not calling racists racist and keeping up willful deceit about why they voted for Trump in order to assuage their egos, I see absolutely no willingness to engage with dialogue with people who don't spend their days defending Trump and attacking Democrats.

We have seen nothing but finger pointed directed at the party and the majority of voters, including the poor and people of color regularly insulted as "corporatists, turd way, and an endless array of insults.
Yet I haven't seen you object to that. I didn't see you object to efforts to normalize anti-abortion positions through false claims about Tim Kaine. In fact, I saw you give it your heartfelt approval while refusing to as much as acknowledge the information presented to you that showed those claims were false. The equal rights of women weren't worth defending, but the integrity of the fascists who voted for Trump and continue to defend him are?

The people who you insist must be pandered to chose to believe and disseminate the RW and Kremlin propaganda, and they continue to do so to this day. Voters are responsible for their own choices, every single one of us. No one forced those shit stains to vote for Stein or Trump. They chose to plunge the country into fascism. The lives lost, the demise of democracy, families ripped apart by immigration raids, people thrown off healthcare--none of that compares to their hatred, and they hate the very same people than the Tea Party and Neo Nazis hate. I don't know why some insist on calling them leftist because they clearly are not. They are white nationalists, just like the rest of the Trump's supporters.

[betsuni]

55. [phone]

[uponit7771]

57. +1

[JHan]

59. Well said.

I have to now reach out to people, or respect people, who have appropriated "identity politics"..as a tool to bash democrats. These fools can keep "the left", the "far left" or whatever they call themselves. I am tired seeing horseshoe politics fail us time and time.

[JTFrog]

66. Mic drop. nt

[Starry Messenger]

83. +1000

[YoungDemCA]

89. So lifelong Democrats who voted twice for Obama and then for Trump are white nationalists?

Nice to know, I guess.

How big is the "big tent?"

[guillaumeb]

91. My post was not directed against the Trump voters,

nor was I discussing Trump voters.

I was directing my post to the many posts that attempt to cast the mythical far left as the villain in the 2016 election results. I could easily have added that 41% of registered voters did not bother to vote as another factor, but the main focus was to remind those who need reminding that the far left is no more significant than the Green vote when it comes to national politics. And the portion of the media that presents truly left-wing views could hold a convention in a small garage.

As to Jill Stein, my opinion, posted numerous times, is that she is not serious in being a candidate. She is simply looking for attention like a 4 year political locust.

[BainsBane]

94. Trump won by two votes per precinct in Michigan

Everyone--whether or not they call themselves leftist--who failed to vote for Clinton chose to plunge the country into fascism, and they are responsible for their own decisions. There is nothing special about people who call themselves leftist while voting for and defending far-right policies. They happen to be less honest than other Trump supporters, but no less malignant.

[Volstagg]

96. And she lost by similar numbers in WI and Penn

Do you think her not going to those states had anything to do with that? You think if she had actually shown up in WI or Penn a few times she might have been able to make up that small margin? Or is it just easier to blame every other thing as the reason she lost those states.

[BainsBane]

100. She actually did go to many of those states

PA and MI both. Lots of things contributed. But no shortcomings of the Clinton campaign absolves voters of responsibility for their own actions. Now we see the consequences, which many of us anticipated and spoke about.

[Volstagg]

103. Of course voters are responsible, too

But a campaign is a campaign. You have to give reasons why people should vote for you. That she spent basically no time in WI and very little time in Penn and then lost those by a small margin would be a pretty good indicator that she could have done better with a little effort.

[guillaumeb]

98. And those 2 votes could have been supressed by the GOP.

One of my points.

[betsuni]

56. Bill Maher was absolutely right about what far left idiots should do with organically grown

cucumbers.

[William769]

58. There is no 'far left' in the Democratic party. nt

[guillaumeb]

92. No. There are moderates of many variations.

A far left candidate would never be allowed to enter into a debate with Democrats, nor would the leftist receive support, except possibly on a very local basis like a city election.

[MountCleaners]

67. I don't like the term "far left" because....

...it is hysterical and reeks of McCarthyism and a desire to purge people from the party. There are probably congresswomen and men who agree with a lot of Stein's positions - they just don't agree with her strategy. The real "far left" to me are extreme Marxist groups, and you've encountered them if you've been involved in any protests. It's not Green Party positions I have a problem with - they are not that radical. It's the strategy, if you can call it that.

Calling perfectly sane political stances "far left" is a scare tactic and tells me where someone is really coming from - probably anti-Progressive and centrist Democrat.

[SticksnStones]

74. There are some who have witnessed the term Centrist Democrat become a slur

So I guess that plays both ways ~

[guillaumeb]

93. Agreed that it is a way of shutting off debate and silencing people.

In a money dominated politics, corporate money has the loudest voice.

[n2doc]

69. Well there are those who wish to be divisive

And who just cannot focus on the task at hand, getting republicans out of office. They would rather relive 2016 over and over. I tend to put repeat offenders on ignore. I hand hoped to not need to do that after 2016 but no, the dividers are still shrieking away.

[JTFrog]

75. If they are so non-existent, why is there such an effort to defend them?

Talk about not being able to focus on the task at hand.

[okieinpain]

76. i think it was a little of everything

the whole sanders or bust, russian interference, voter suppression, lack of caring and the clinton campaign mistakes because when you look at the numbers trump just barely squeaked by even though he pretty much won every state.

[Demsrule86]

78. With all that you have written...the fact remains had Hillary

received third party votes( Greens) in key states, she would have won. No doubt what you say is true and that made the election very close...just close enough for Jill Stein who campaigned in states that were close deliberately...who wanted Trump to win ....to take close states. She was the Nader of 16-probably worse...Nader did not collude with the Russians and Republicans. And those who did not vote for Hillary by staying home, voting for Stein or any third party candidate or even an f'ing gorilla,voting for Trump...writing in anyone...They have have blood on their hands. And this was a very very bad election to engage in this behavior...the courts alone should have stopped this nonsense. We can't discuss the primary here as you know...the primary is over. But had there been no primary would Trump have won? We will never know, but we should be careful in 2020 to avoid a bitter divisive primary.
Oh and lets not consider Stein or any of her supporters progressive. Jill is Putin's pet...she deceived all of those who voted for her and is not progressive...a third rate spoiler...and she can go straight to hell as far as I am concerned.

[hrmjustin]

79. Jill Stein and her supporters deserve mocking.

They are not our allies.

[Gothmog]

80. Stein and the BOB idiots did help elect trump

Even now the JPR site is full of trump and russian supporters or trolls

[Blue_Tires]

82. It is when it's apt...

Last edited Thu May 11, 2017, 02:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Link to tweet

Next question.

[LanternWaste]

88. Dialog with any set of extremists too often devolves down into

Dialog with any set of extremists too often devolves down into them lecturing a group of friends who, after five minutes, would rather be anywhere else, doing anything else, with anyone else.

So I disagree with your premise... dialog with extremists is not on my To-Do list, regardless of whether "idiot" is far too simplistic or not.

[jalan48]

95. No

[stranger81]

97. It isn't meant to promote dialogue.

It's intended to marginalize any political opinions to the left of the centrist Democratic establishment and to shut down discussion.

It also has the happy side effect of allowing the centrists to feel self-satisfied and superior.

[guillaumeb]

99. This probably applies to a few people.

But a far better strategy would be to energize the apathetic non-voters rather than name calling.

[stranger81]

101. I wholeheartedly agree. [n/t]

[Thomas Hurt]

102. My world view will magically save us all, if only all you heathens would just believe what I do.

[guillaumeb]

104. If only you had said this earlier.

Oh well, there is always 2020. (Not referring to vision.)

[dansolo]

105. So why aren't Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein talking about those issues?

You are right that these are major issues that need to be dealt with, but I never hear either Bernie Sanders or Jill Stein address them. All of their ire is exclusively directed at the Democrats, even when, as you clearly point out, all of the major problems with our elections are intentionally caused by the GOP.

[Tursiops]

106. I remember Jonathan Alter dissing "Fire breathing liberals"

I made a thread about it under the name Cetacea, years ago.

[Blue_true]

108. I seriously hate people that let their "principles" get in the way of the greater good.

I have spent my adult life hearing that nonsense from the right. I am moderate-liberal. A lot of social policy Democrats favor actually hurt me some, but is good for society as a whole, I always vote for the Democrat in a race, even when the person is left or right of what I feel comfortable with - because I know the republican will be much, much worse.

[brooklynite]

109. Obama won despite all the conservative dirty tricks listed...

...now personally, I hold Clinton responsible for her own loss. However. I recognize that some leftist voters DID refuse to vote for Clinton in the GE, which could have affected the outcome of a close election.