Important to remember that Fox News is reporting the Comey story completely differently

[oberliner]

In the Fox News version of reality, Comey was fired for completely sensible reasons (i.e. not going harder after HRC), and the Democrats are being hypocrites and cry-babies for getting upset about it now (since they all wanted Comey gone also).

In the Fox News universe, there is nothing to the Russia thing, it's a witch hunt led by Democrats and the LW media which is all just out to get Trump and fabricating ways to do so.

It's important, I think, for us to be aware that this is not a fringe position. There are countless millions of people who rely on Fox as their only source of news and believe all other sources to be lying. The people in this category are not operating in the same reality than we are - and their numbers are not small.

And there is no convincing them otherwise. That, I think, is the other important piece. There is nothing that Trump could do that they would not find a way to defend.

What is the best way to overcome this? Is it to ignore these people? To try to reason with them? I don't know. What I do know is that reports on CNN or in depth analysis by Rachel Maddow or jokes by Stephen Colbert are not going to reach these folks, and, instead, will cement, in their mind, the us vs. them mentality.

What I have found to be somewhat effective at times is to focus on one small point that maybe can be a source of agreement. And to try to do so without getting emotional. Sometimes that can crack the shell a bit and let in some light.

[Cha]

1. I read on one tweet that comey quit according to Fake fox

But, I think that would be a little hard to keep going with that lie

[oberliner]

2. They initially reported that he had resigned

But they corrected it pretty quickly, per snopes.

http://www.snopes.com/fox-news-comey/

[aquamarina]

60. Yeah, I saw the screen shot.

It was outrageous.

[uponit7771]

3. FAUX news has to be called out by the reality based media

[SCantiGOP]

56. Only thing you can do

Is try to block some of the public venues that have Fox on their TVs. I have been successful most of the time in restaurants, doctors offices, lobbies, etc. with a polite request to turn the TV to some other channel. If they ask what, I recommend CNN or even the Weather Channel (that way the Fox-infused viewers will at least see an occasional story on climate change implications).

Many people never see any other channel, so Fox eventually becomes reality.

[Grins]

59. Ask and they will... But why do they show Fox?

I can't verify if this is universal, but in dealing with some of these places, a lot of waiting rooms that have TV's those TV's were subsidized by Fox. Fox either paid for them outright or provided them for some great price. Maybe only helped out with the cable bill.

The caveat to the "owner"? - turn on Fox channels. When they power-up first thing in the AM - set the channel to Fox. If a customer requests something else, fine, change it; if not, it stays Fox.

I'm sure the same applies to CNN.

[SCantiGOP]

109. Interesting

I heard on NPR that all of the TVs in break rooms, cafeterias, etc at Dept of HHS were set on Fox by order of the Secretary's office. They said they would check to see if this was the case in other agencies, and if the general order had come from the WH, but I never heard a follow-up.

Having to see that all day should constitute a hostile work environment.

[ProfessorGAC]

63. I Do That All The Time

I will not sit idly by while that is on a public TV and let it become normalized background noise.

I've had people say "Hey i was watching that" but so what.

[Jim Beard]

89. I ask them to change stations too. In 200, when I first visited a heart hospital, they had a TV in a

Last edited Thu May 11, 2017, 12:38 PM - Edit history (1)

small waiting room turned to FOX with a note attached to not changed channels. I have had good luck in some places and not so in others.

[sharedvalues]

4. Fox news are propagandists for the wealthy, and now traitors

[oberliner]

8. Powerful propagandists they are

We ought, I think, to be aware of their power.

[Mr.Bill]

39. Fox News

Rich people being paid by really rich people to tell middle class people that poor people are the problem.

[sharedvalues]

96. Great message! Dems need to plaster that everywhere.

I love that message. Did you see the Philly runner who carried a sign saying that in a race last week?

[Mr.Bill]

98. I can't remember where I first saw it.

Probably somewhere on this website.

[Mr. Ected]

5. There is no #fakenews in a court of law

Let the justice system do its thing. It may not change the right wing narrative, but it will lay waste to their propaganda.

[oberliner]

6. Can justice be served without Republicans on board?

They control the Congress right now.

[Mr. Ected]

11. Justice may not come in the form of impeachment

It may reveal itself in state criminal proceedings, outside the purview of executive privilege and pardon powers.

[sharedvalues]

7. I don't think Fox matters on Russia. CNN has flipped. And see this on Nixon in 1974

https://psmag.com/news/trumps-supporters-still-support-trump-so-what

In June of 1974, with the Watergate scandal exploding and President Richard Nixon’s approval ratings in the high 20s, the New York Timesran an article that interviewed rural, conservative whites in Holdrege, Nebraska, about their feelings toward the president. These respondents were fierce supporters of Nixon and did not like the way the political system was treating him. The quotes may sound familiar today:

“I CAN’T BELIEVE THERE’S ONE DIRTY THING WRONG WITH RICHARD NIXON…. SOME PEOPLE DID SOME AWFUL WRONG THINGS AT WATERGATE, BUT YOU’LL NEVER CONVINCE ME THAT NIXON KNEW OF THEM. NOW YOU TALK ABOUT DISHONESTY. WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE VOTES THE DEMOCRATS ALWAYS STEAL IN CHICAGO?”
“I’M JUST NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THE PRESIDENT IS WRONG UNTIL HE’S CONVICTED. I DON’T HAVE THAT MUCH FAITH IN THE NEWS MEDIA ANY MORE.”
“YOU CAN SEE THE GLEAM IN THOSE TV REPORTERS’ EYES WHEN THEY HAVE BAD NEWS.”
“I CAN’T UNDERSTAND WHY SOME PEOPLE SUDDENLY EXPECT POLITICS TO BE CONDUCTED IN A CHURCH-LIKE ATMOSPHERE. IT NEVER HAS BEEN BEFORE.”
“THOSE EASTERN LIBERALS, TRY TO MAKE THEIR POLITICAL BELIEFS SEEM SO SOPHISTICATED JUST BECAUSE THEY’RE LIBERAL, BUT THEY BLAST AND NIT‐PICK SO MUCH IT SOUNDS LIKE PROPAGANDA NOW.”

The 1974 NYT article that contains these quotes is a really good read.
http://www.nytimes.com/1974/06/06/archives/in-holdrege-neb-where-weather-leads-watergate-as-a-topic-nixonls.html?_r=0

Let Fox do their lying thing. The dam has been breached. All the rest of the media are up in arms. And arrests will happen soon. As many sins as Fox has in normal times (allowing e.g. AHCA, Benghazi, poisoning people against Obamacare's benefits), this is now out of Fox's control. The Kochs and Murdochs and Mercers can't stop this.

[oberliner]

9. I hope you're right

I think it will take some Republicans, though, getting on board with this.

[leftynyc]

17. Keep an eye on those senators

up for reelection in 2018. Those are the only ones who count here.

[jrthin]

27. We should do everything in our power

to make sure that those rethugs who are up for reelection never get to see Congress again.

[leftynyc]

32. Agree 100% n/t

[sharedvalues]

10. Also to address those who watch Fox

I find it useful to talk about obvious lies at Fox - the Pence/Hillary email contrast is a good point to cite.

You will always be told in response that they don't believe you. (No one likes to admit to being wrong)
But when you talk to them again weeks or months later they will be much more skeptical of Fox.

edit: also, narrative is important - make sure you explain WHY fox is doing this - to advance Murdoch's agenda to destroy the govt to cut taxes on the super wealthy.

[oberliner]

14. I also like when an occasional Fox News person says something reasonable

Once in a while Shep Smith or Chris Wallace will say something that I can point to.

[thesquanderer]

62. Fox has actually had some reasonable coverage of this, from very unlikely sources.

Check Napolitano at

|

and Krauthammer at

|

My jaw dropped.

If Fox is broadcasting these people saying these things, then even much of the right is going to give this stuff at least some credence. Trump must be throwing things at his TV.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Let the lost take care of the lost.

[geek tragedy]

13. I don't discuss politics with the drooling idiots who

unconditionally support Trump and rely on Fox and Breitbart for all their news. Complete waste of time.

[oberliner]

15. What if they are in your family?

And you otherwise love them as people?

[geek tragedy]

22. Don't talk politics with them. No point. nt

[procon]

29. Then its even worse.

Every single adult in my family is addicted to Fox. Its all they know. The constant repetition by their most cherished celebrity talking heads confirms all their biases and they feel justified in clinging to all their hatreds, prejudices, bigotry, sexism, racism and misogyny. The convoluted lies they parrot as they try to explain their POV is childlike naivete and fraught with deep, emotional angst.

The propaganda they have absorbed over the years has totally brainwashed them, and now it's like they belong to a cult, or some kooky religious sect. There is nothing that can be said, no data they will read, no video they will watch, that will ever shake their beliefs. For my own peace of mind, I gave up. Just to keep some marginal contact with my family I have to limit conversations to benign topics, but even something as innocuous as 'the weather' is a loaded subject to them.

[llmart]

81. This is why we shouldn't even bother...

trying to convert them. There are very few that we would reach. Some will come to the realization on their own when the scandal erupts with more facts, etc. There are still many people in the GOP of a certain age (my age group) that hold a grudge against Democrats for what happened to Nixon. Remember - Nixon won in a landslide. Those are the kind of people you will never reach and I, for one, won't waste my energies on them.

[Jim Beard]

92. The anti Vietman "Secret Plan" vote lives today. There is little hope of changing the "old dogs"

so we need to work on the young ones. Now I do remember a large group of young people who supported Eugene McCarthy. I graduated from a small school in 1965 and all my classmates are republican today. I see no reason to go to reunions.

[llmart]

114. Very good point.

I went back to my small, rural town to visit two high school friends in the fall and there were trump signs in every other yard. Some of my classmates (1967 for me) have never left the small town. The highlight of their lives was when they got a Wal-Mart the next town over. I have lived a pretty full life in a few different states and they are people I don't recognize any longer. I don't do reunions.

[leftynyc]

16. You can't reason with them

Don't waste your time (something about wrestling with a pig). They're lost causes and largely irrelevant. We lost the election because of independents - all elections are decided by independents. Just stick to facts, let the investigations continue and forget trying to reason with imbeciles.

[oberliner]

64. I don't know

I think occasionally you can break through.

[leftynyc]

99. Not going to happen

with the ones I call "true believers". They'll go down with the ship rather than admit they've been hoodwinked by a fraud - they're JUST like donnie that way. I can honestly say that other than a good friend's trainer (who I only see very rarely), I don't know anyone that voted for the fraud. It's one of the joys of living in downstate NY.

[spanone]

18. that's fox 'news'

they are to news as mad magazine is to classic literature

[C_U_L8R]

19. Fox viewers are knuckleheads.

Last edited Thu May 11, 2017, 10:50 AM - Edit history (1)

Seriously. What kind of idiot believes that crap?

[certainot]

40. fox is visual reinforcement for talk radio

it's the visual icing for the lie turd pie of talk radio.

for every fox station there are 20 rw radio stations doing a lot more lying, racism, sexism, and repeating it more often to a lot more people who have no free easy alternatives for politics while driving and working.

fox is a distraction that attracts liberal criticism while the real problem goes ignored and beats the crap out of our reps and issues and gives us trump. liberals try to figure out what went wrong while ignoring the real problem.

[leftstreet]

55. +1

Nicely stated

[oberliner]

65. It is the most watched cable news channel

And it's viewers are pretty loyal and devoted. We're talking about tens of millions of people who believe what they see and hear on Fox.

[C_U_L8R]

77. I know I know

It never ceases to amaze me that there is such an appetite for hate/fear-based agitprop that is so often completely fabricated. And now they turn on legitimate media and call it 'fake news'. Orwell never imagined it could be this fucked up.

[Jim Beard]

103. A lot of it is the short skirts on the couch

[OnDoutside]

20. You don't have to reach ALL the nutjobs. 25%, of the 60m who voted for Trump, would do, which if

they turned, would blow the Republican Party away in the midterms. Many are Deplorable, but you don't have to turn them.

And I should say that there's a good chance 25% watch other stuff too.

[oberliner]

66. Agreed

The question is - how to approach that 25 percent to get them to maybe come around.

[OnDoutside]

82. Is it likely that 100% of the 60m Rep voters only watch Fox and RW radio ? Many do, but I

suspect lots watch ABC/CBS/NBC and other channels too.

[stevenleser]

106. Well...

You could try going on the channel and giving out the facts.

[oberliner]

107. Sadly they don't let folks like us on their channel

That's the crux of the problem.

[stevenleser]

111. Sure they do...

https://m.youtube.com/user/sleser001

[oberliner]

112. Wow - is that you?

How cool! I had no idea.

[stevenleser]

115. Yep

I've been criticized here by some folks for appearing there, but as you noted, if you want to appeal to the folks who watch that channel, there is one surefire way to get them to see & hear you.

[oberliner]

116. You've got my support

I completely agree with you on that score.

And let me add, even though we've had a little bit of a snippy argument about Jon Stewart, I have always found your posts and contributions to this site to be very insightful.

[treestar]

21. Reality will eventually bite them

One can't really have one's own reality. On some level, they know it is imaginary.

[oberliner]

67. I don't think they know it's imaginary

I think they believe it and feel that we are the ones not living in reality.

[Kablooie]

23. Fox is still has the largest audience of any news outlet by far.

They have double the audience of CNN and MSNBC
There are many, many businesses that have TVs tuned exclusively to Fox News.
It has more influence on American thinking than any other source.

[mikki35]

38. only in cable news

The main network news shows still range from double to triple the viewers of any of the cable news networks. Plus, msnbc has beaten fox several times in the last few weeks. It's not all locked in to fox.

[world wide wally]

57. And that is why we are in the shape we're in

[Moostache]

61. There are 300 million people in America...

Fox
2.4 million viewers in primetime
(less than 1% of the population)

MSNBC
averaged 1.4 million in primetime
(less than 1/2 of 1% of the population)

CNN
averaging 778,000 in primetime.
(approximately 1/4 of 1% of the population)

The problem is not Fox News as much as social media and the way Fox News stories and propaganda is the lingua franca of the conservative bubble. What is started on Fox News is propagated through endless hours of hate radio and then regurgitated in prayer meetings, Lion's club, Rotissary meetings, chamber of commerce meetings and on and on and on.

There was much derision and chortling, even among some Democrats, when Hillary Clinton called out the "vast Right Wing conspiracy against my husband" as far back as 1992...it's only gotten exponentially worse since then.

Without a return of the Fairness Doctrine for mass media and especially local radio programming, this will not change. There truly ARE two Americas now...one is based in reality and rational thought, the other is based on lies, propaganda and ignorance of the truth. I remember a quote, though not the source, that was profound on this..."There are none so blind as they who refuse to open their eyes." We have a large swath of America that is hypnotized and controlled by nefarious means...they "think" they are in the know, that they are not being deceived or lied to or controlled....they "believe" that their news is unbiased, fair, balanced...they "know" that 'leftists are loons' and the liberal homosexual agenda is promote filthy anti-god hedonism.

Many are simply too far gone to bother with...they are best cordoned off from society and allowed to wither and die off (which their GOP masters are all too happy to help them do without benefit of even palliative care or hospice when they find themselves with no money, no insurance and no options). But to the ones who can be turned, the time is now. This spin of the Comey firing is as if in 1973, CBS and NBC were reporting on Watergate and ABC was spinning the '72 election results as a mandate still.

[oberliner]

68. Exactly

The question I am contemplating is how best to approach that reality.

[NYC Liberal]

95. It's not even close to the largest news outlet.

NBC, ABC, and CBS evening news all regularly get 2-3 times more viewers than Fox does.

http://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/evening-news-ratings-week-of-may-1-2/328729

http://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/fox-news-wins-monday-with-revamped-prime-time-lineup/327557

[tiredtoo]

24. Concerning convincing them otherwise

Last week a conversation with two staunch Trump folks came upon the sanctuary cities topic. They firmly said sanctuary cities violate federal law and is illegal.
They were silenced when i mentioned marijuana laws in various states versus federal law. Both enjoy an occasional joint for relaxation.
Gave them some pause, perhaps a glimmer of enlightenment.

[treestar]

54. Yes, they can be convinced over time

People have to chip away at it or give them something to think about. It is not useless just because they don't immediately change their minds.

[oberliner]

69. That's great

It's always good to have those moments when you can reach those folks at least on one or two issues.

Unfortunately, they will often go back to their RW sources and get fresh talking points.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

25. When indictments, convictions & impeachments come, Fox viewers will be the most shocked on Earth. nt

[oberliner]

70. I am not at all confident any of those things are coming

Especially with the Congress currently run by Republicans.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

90. tRump gets more toxic by the day.

After the Comey firing, I read of at least four Republican Senators who were "disturbed" by it.

[WinkyDink]

88. Exactly. My late best friend was SHOCKED and not in a "Casablanca" way when Romney lost.

[Equinox Moon]

26. I invite them to view/listen to other media sources as well.

I ask them to challenge the information for themselves by learning how various media report on a topic. To change their minds, they must discover for themselves they are being lied to. I have been working on a few people with this non-threatening approach that they have their own self-discovery. It is cracking the shell a little.

Look, this is the same as what happens to people in religious cults. What breaks the cycle is learning about other ways.

[oberliner]

71. Have you had any success?

Do you know folks who have come around?

[Equinox Moon]

113. I know people that are mildly open to my challenge.

The challenge, mind you, is non-threatening. I am not telling them what to think, I am telling them to discover for themselves. I say, pick a topic and follow that story or topic on various media sources. The media sources must be a variety, not just right-wing. I say use your own brain to see the truth.

It is a type of surrender to learn you have been lied to. I don't care if they do it on their own in private to save face and I may never know the full impact it makes.

It does work if they do it over and over again. The problem is that the trumpsters I have come across usually have zero capacity of opening up to other possibilities. I like the challenge, but it depends on the day and the person.

[dhill926]

28. K & R...

good to know....

[underpants]

30. Yep heard on local RW radio yesterday afternoon and this morning

[dchill]

37. "JAMES COMEY RESIGNS."

The big lie. Banner headlie.

[progressoid]

51. Yeah, they seem to have a lot of those kind of "mistakes" on their crawl.

[wildeyed]

31. The lead on their website is speculation about Obama's speaking fees.

Nothing about Comey and Trump/Russia at all, other than link to live testimony. I shit you not.

[oberliner]

72. Doesn't surprise me

It's funny/scary how so many Trump fans are led to believe that the most pressing issue facing them right now is whether or not Hillary Clinton goes to jail.

[Thinkingabout]

33. FOX listeners are used to being mushroomed, they are kept in the dark and fed bullshit, they

need all day feeding, don't know the truth and don't want the truth. I had hoped many of the republicans would look at Trump as the one who is destroying the GOP, maybe after the 2018 election we may be able to get their attention.

[workinclasszero]

34. So is hate radio

These right wing loons live in a reality of their own making. Hannity was spewing a lie per second yesterday about why the pussy grabber in chief was justified in sacking Comey.

With every point he bought up l screamed at the radio...why then did the Dear Leader wait till yesterday to fire him Sean????

Why yesterday Sean! Why! The fuckin Putin cock holster never explained why Dump waited months to fire Comey.

[oberliner]

73. Hannity is enormously popular

And is clearly a hypocrite and a buffoon. At least Rush Limbaugh occasionally is funny. Sean is completely charmless. I do not understand his appeal at all.

[workinclasszero]

78. Handjob is an idiot whisperer

and the scumball does his job well!

[dchill]

35. It's perfectly OK with them that the "us" in "us vs. them..."

now is mainly found in rUSsia.

[Sunlei]

36. fox is an arm of the Republican party, fox and friends has groomed trump for years.

propaganda TV.

[still_one]

41. Fox is a propaganda network. There is nothing to reason with regarding intentional misinformation.

The interesting issue is that another Murdoch enterprise, the Wall Street Journal, generally does a good job in presenting the news, and that its reporting actually contradicts the fox news reporting, and every other newspaper's reporting would cause a critical thinker to question the credibility of fox news. I guess that speaks volumes for the viewers of fox news

[SDJay]

42. I Turned It On Last Night

for a couple of minutes just to see what that echo chamber was spewing. Up pops Geraldo who says that even if the Drumpf campaign colluded with Russia, he couldn't understand why it was wrong or illegal. He called that opinion of his revolutionary, and then POS Hannity 'added' to that profound knowledge nugget by talking about how OBAMA undercut Bibi Netanyahu so he did it first. I don't know WTF that even meant as I seem to recall the opposite happening with Netanyahu, but that's the dreck the Fox rubes are being fed these days.

[barbtries]

46. i can't do it.

just flipping through the channels at a hotel recently and what would come up for a second or so was infuriating. if our democracy fails it will be as much to do with fox and hate radio as trump and the republicans. or maybe that's all just one vast right wing conspiracy. i don't know but it is way too frustrating for me.

[SDJay]

49. I Normally Can't Either

but I felt I had to take a look. Some of the shit the Fox rubes in my life have been spewing lately is even more nonsensical than usual, so I had to see what they were being told to think and say. It was freaking bizarre.

Those few minutes were all I could stand until every fiber of my being came close to exploding.

[barbtries]

104. i can only imagine.

do they want to see the constitution fail and trump become a dictator? is this what they want actually? sigh.

[barbtries]

43. what i do

is stay far away from politics when talking to my older brother and sister. i love them, and want to keep it that way.

[zentrum]

44. It's shocking what's going on

...in RW world.The entire Russia story is a "liberal conspiracy", the firing of Comey is normal and no big woof, (Clinton did it---said with no distinguishing facts included at all) and we just need to leave Trump alone and let him be Trump.

It's nauseatingly "alt".

[oberliner]

74. Exactly

It's amazing how they are able to spin this in that fashion. What will it take for the RW to go against Trump?

[zentrum]

93. If he can start to bring

.....down the entire Repug party. That's the only thing that will turn them. But, so far I think that bell weather candidates like Ossoff are probably not going to make it.

Yet.

[Still In Wisconsin]

45. Fox is very, very good at being the propaganda arm of the Republican Party.

They know their role and they play it very well.

[Saboburns]

47. I thank you Oberliner

We will not make in roads until we face the fact that nearly all Republicans, and around 40% of Americans, essentially get their views from Right wing information places. Its the reason we are where we are with Trump as President who still has an 80% approval rating among Republicans.

The irony is that there is indeed fake news, that Republicans consume and beg for more.

[oberliner]

75. You're welcome

It's a real challenge figuring out how to address this situation.

[Saboburns]

100. Indeed it is

Sometimes I fantasize of launching a home made rocket and blasting a Fox News satellite as it orbits.

It occurs to me that Republicans in America are the most propagandized people in the history of the world, a statement that I do not make lightly. That the propaganda that they are exposed to is the basest type. It taps into their hatreds, fears and ignorance. The scariest part, to me anyway, is that they are never exposed to any other viewpoint. Now imagine that, in this modern world that enables us all to all the information, intelligence, data etc. THESE PEOPLE CHOOSE TO BE PROPAGANDIZED. They want to be told the things they are told.

I don't know that there is a way to fight that.

[TNLib]

48. Thank you for posting this

When I commented on my local news on face book
I was attacked with insults. I didn't insult anyone jut gave my opinion on the firing of Comey. After a couple of days of insults I deleted my fb post because I got tired of being insulted by a bunch of toothless Hillbillies.

I was really surprised by the level of ignorance.

[oberliner]

76. You're welcome

What is the answer, though? Any insights?

[TNLib]

86. I think if arrest start being made some will start waking up

Right now they're all screaming there's no evidence of collusion and they believe it's all a witch hunt but once evidence is presented to the public I think they'll run out of excuses to protect their orange hero.

[Mr. Sparkle]

50. It is like looking into a parallel dimension where up is down and down is up.

Then you realise it is a propaganda outfit where the hatriots go to watch and suck it all in for the next days talking points.

[ffr]

52. That pales in comparison to the importance to the destruction tRumpsters are inflicting.

It's important for them to realize how over the top patriotic we are and that we view them as the danger to our democracy. They are the ones who should view the importance of this moment.

[tazkcmo]

53. It's important to remember

They are idiots, we out number them and we are better off without them.
In short, F 'em.

[karynnj]

58. That captures the problem that we face

Last edited Thu May 11, 2017, 12:04 PM - Edit history (1)

It really didn't completely hit me until Trump DEFINED fake news as every source that has traditionally been trusted -- and gave press credentials to Jerome Corsi (birther, SBVT) of Infowars! It brings to mind that the famous Moynihan statement that you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts is in practice no longer true. In the 1960s, when I grew up, there were both left and right leaning newspapers, but the gist of the facts were the same. It was the context and simply the "color" of how things were explained using either negative or positive adjectives or cherry picked details that defined the difference between the three Chicago papers.

Last weekend, we watched France deal with a hack that dumped stuff about two days before an election. You could credit the excellent statement that the Macron campaign quickly made before the "quiet period" kicked in or you could credit the French media for NOT breaking the quiet time to race to cover it. However, another difference to BOTH the US and UK is that France does not have a tabloid or right wing personalities like the US. There were other differences - that Macron was seen as clean, unlike Le Pen who was actually under investigation for using EU money for people actually working on her campaign. I think it helped that Macron had already directly, calmly and speaking directly to people countered the Le Pen hinted at allegation that he had an offshore account.

However, the biggest difference between the countries may come down to the media. Ours has genuinely created two Americas - and not the ones John Edwards spoke of. That does explain why the Obamas' popularity never expanded beyond the Democrats and Independents - even though his family was easily as charismatic as JFK's. It explains the garbage on twitter attacking people like Obama and Kerry with attacks long ago discredited - including some that never existed in the mainstream. (In Kerry's case that there was suppposedly something untoward with him going to Antarctica around the time of the election rather than that he wanted to go there before the Kigali climate change conference.)

In their universe, Trump has reasserted America's role as the leader of the free world, which Obama lost by "leading from behind". Ignored is that any poll in western countries showed that Obama had greatly repaired our relationships with our allies that had weakened under Bush. They ignore that Trump is seen unfavorably by 82% of the French and contrast the strong Tillerson favorably to Kerry, claiming the French were dismayed that he came with James Taylor - completely ignoring that French media covered his speech (in French) and Taylor live. It ignores that Obama's administration succeeded diplomatically on getting the Iran nuclear deal and the Paris Climate Change Accord both given very little chance to succeed even in 2013! Part of that, is that they argue both are bad deals, but at this point, many serious right wingers actually see that both are better kept than shredded. Ignored is that Tillerson is not even engaged in any real diplomacy.

Like you, I don't know what the answer is and it is getting worse over time. I remember that Kerry spoke at the Kennedy Library in early 2005 when Tom Oliphant of the Boston Globe, who had covered him since 1971, had a conversation with him as the Library gave him an award. One question asked was about how to deal with the media. He said that the print media did pretty quickly side with him vs the SBVT, but cable and radio continued to give them credence. (My own view was that some of the media bent over backwards to not call the liars what they were.) He spoke of the RW echo chamber, where the think tanks wrote detailed reports, that were translated to talking points, then simultaneously dispersed on Fox News and the many RW radio outlets. The repetition helped convince people because all the sources reinforced each other. Both men stated simply that there was no easy solution, but Democrats needed to deal with this. In 2008, I thought that social media, where primary material - ie Obama himself stating his policy or dispelling a lie on a youtube could be sent viral - meaning we could counter the echo chamber. Last year, showed how wrong I was - far from being a solution, facebook, twitter and the internet itself exasperated the problem, benefitting those spreading lies more than those offering facts.

In a day when newspapers are getting weaker and their financial state is precarious and so many trust sources that objectively broadcast lies, how do we get to a place where we are like we once were and which the French still are?

[oberliner]

79. Very well said

Lots to consider in your post.

[heaven05]

80. #1 example

fake news disseminator in amerikkka and the world. What chumps people are to fall for this b.s.!!!!!!!! I have tried to explain the truth....with your small light source example.....hasn't worked for me so far....they really are into being obstinate and ignorant. No real hope for 99.9 % of these chumps. I just ask about the corruption in just htese last 90 days plus that has come out in the news of record....fake news is all they say. They are like the ignorant, stupid woman on here yesterday at trader joe's harassing the muslim woman....very ignorant and not worth the time of day.

They will one day, along with fake snooze and this current nazi administration, end up in the GARBAGE BIN of american history to be ridiculed, derided and discussed as a very sad time in american history NEVER to be repeated. Something along the lines of the lesson germans learned from having a hitler at the helm of their country.

Not saying what you are trying is wrong, just a waste of time.

[oberliner]

83. I think the non-RW media bears some responsibility

Sometimes folks are a little too quick to jump on an anti-Trump story that may not be exactly what it appears to be. Then the RW can yell and scream about the media being "fake news" and point to one of these errors as an example.

[Ilsa]

84. Fix it by telling them that DFT is a democrat. Has been all his

life, until he did a hostile takeover of the gop.

[oberliner]

85. That's what Joe Scar says all the time

I wonder if Morning Joe has any impact on these folks or if they view him as a liberal.

[WinkyDink]

87. There is NO "one small point that maybe can be a source of agreement." Suggest one.

[oberliner]

94. Like, maybe he should have told Comey directly

Rather than having him find out about on TV?

Maybe they can accept that one.

[WinkyDink]

105. Maybe, but I can't be bothered (they could also reply, "Still too good for him!" And then I'm mad.).

[Locrian]

91. small things

When trump said he fired comey because of his attack on hiliary - come ON! I use that with them: "come ON!!!" NOBODY is that dense that they believe that whopper!

Then I smile and say "Lock him up" - use their own chant (that they like) but shift it to trump.

[sammythecat]

97. Excellent post!

I agree with everything you've said.

Even more than Trump himself, what's most disturbing, even frightening, are the many millions that think he's doing just great. Like you say, they're operating in a different reality, one that is completely incomprehensible to me.

[ancianita]

101. Just looking at the numbers, I don't see Fox as the major wielder of public influence that you do.

You:

It's important, I think, for us to be aware that this is not a fringe position. There are countless millions of people who rely on Fox as their only source of news and believe all other sources to be lying. The people in this category are not operating in the same reality than we are - and their numbers are not small.

Me: I'm not going to call it "fringe" but I'm pretty sure it's a minority position. Here's why.

They're 3.83 million. That's the highest count my research has shown me; Fox audience counts are actually lower. Regardless, that is not a big percentage of the American population, really, which is what, around 325 million.

And whether they or we 'feel' as if they're Big Numbers, I think, depends on which IHeartRadio areas you live in (formerly Channel One country), since many TV and radio operators get free syndication from this major right wing media conglomerate, along with Fox News.

What I think Fox is influential about is that they "get out in front of the facts" with a story frame; then later they present a sub-frame of the first story, and it tells listener/watchers that the rest of media is dishonest in their reactions to Fox's 'news,' and that Fox is the most "real" and trustworthy.

For Fox watchers it's the only media they're in front of daily, in every bar, coffee shop, hair salon or bus, air or train station. The common news exposure creates bubbles of agreement and bonding in communities. It becomes easy to believe Fox when it says that they are more "in the know" than coastal snobs. Usually the young of these areas have wider internet access, clearer outlooks, and often challenge or mitigate what we think is an unrelenting and powerful set of stories of world events.

You're not wrong in saying we should pay attention to Fox and its watchers. But Fox hasn't been as powerfully propagandistic as we fear, either. It gives feels. I'm not going to echo those here.

The real enemies whom I fear are the profiteers of government who care not if this country becomes a trade satellite -- with all the governmental trappings and business evils -- of Russia.

Just my two cents.

[oberliner]

108. That 325 million includes children

The adult population is more like 250 million, I believe.

And out of that number, only 60 percent or so actually vote.

[ancianita]

110. Right. Okay.

[Lint Head]

102. Something needs to be done about Fox News. They do not report the news.

They'e nothing more than a propaganda arm of the Republican Party and the Trump Administration. They are the opposite of a free press. A press is charged with informing the populist regarding the politicians who are supposed to be good stewards of our country. I emphasize supposed to be.