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babylonsister

(171,056 posts)
Thu May 11, 2017, 06:49 PM May 2017

Charles P. Pierce: This Feels Like a Turning Point

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a55032/trump-comey-russia-turning-point/

This Feels Like a Turning Point

Nobody is in control of the narrative right now.
By Charles P. Pierce
May 11, 2017


When we last left Camp Runamuck, and it was only this morning, there was some question as to whether the walls of the East Room ought to be discreetly padded. Since then, and it's only been about six hours, every single element of the most recent account of why the president* iced James Comey had been refuted, much of it by the president* himself, who sat down for a whopper of an interview with Lester Holt of NBC and proceeded to make clowns out of Sean Spicer, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Rod Rosenstein, and most conspicuously of all, Vice President Mike Pence, who must wish he were back being the incredibly unpopular governor of Indiana. It is getting very crowded under the bus.

Before addressing the interview itself, let us contemplate how truly woolly-headed stupid even doing the interview was, especially this week, when the president*'s credibility was being quite competently shredded without his help. His staff should don masks and catch rides deep into the Appalachians. His lawyers should get out of the business. It's now abundantly clear that there simply is nobody alive who can stop this guy from doing anything. I can't imagine what he'd be like as an actual defendant. He might bite the judge in the balls, or he might pin everything on Tiffany.

Anyway, remember on Wednesday, when the story was that it was Rosenstein's unsolicited bill of particulars that made the president* fire Comey? Well, it became Thursday, and we were back with the master of The Deal, who doesn't let lesser men close for him.

But first, just a little slander:

TRUMP: He's a showboat, he's a grandstander, the FBI has been in turmoil, you know that, I know that, everybody knows that. You take a look at the FBI a year ago, it was in virtual turmoil. Less than a year ago, it hasn't recovered from that.


And irony takes a big swig of Virginia Gentleman, shoots up some fine Afghan H, and walks into a propeller blade.

HOLT: Monday you met with the Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein—

TRUMP: Right.

HOLT: Did you ask for a recommendation?

TRUMP: What I did, is I was going to fire Comey. My decision. It was not –

HOLT: You had made the decision before they came into the room?

TRUMP: I was going to fire Comey. There's no good time to do it, by the way. They—

HOLT: Because in your letter you said, "I accepted their recommendation." So you had already made the decision?

TRUMP: Oh, I was going to fire regardless of recommendation.

HOLT: So there really wasn't a –

TRUMP: He made a recommendation. He's highly respected, very good guy, very smart guy, the Democrats like him, the Republicans like him. He made a recommendation, but regardless of recommendation, I was going to fire Comey.


Does any of this really matter anymore? Not the cover-up, because there is a cover-up, and not because of what is being covered up, because something damned serious is being covered up. But all the persiflage that's flying around from the president*, and the staffers he sends out there to fly the Alps blindfolded, and all his congressional bobos who are fine with handing the government of the United States over to an only-partially-hinged ignoramus as long as their donors get their tax cuts and more of the planet to despoil.

These people have bargained themselves for cheap. There are rats in all their words. They are the mere husks of public servants, and they're complicit in the act of hollowing out the republic. If they remain willing to do it, I honestly don't know where we're all going. But there is, at the moment, a sense of a great turning in events. Nobody is in control of the story right now, and ordinarily, that would be a cause for concern. But chaos turns upon itself eventually, and that may be the best shot we have.
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Charles P. Pierce: This Feels Like a Turning Point (Original Post) babylonsister May 2017 OP
K&R n/t rzemanfl May 2017 #1
Trouble is, in my mind....We've had so many turning points..... Brother Buzz May 2017 #2
Yes, I remember eight years full of "turning points" posted here Wednesdays May 2017 #6
No turning points as bad as this womanofthehills May 2017 #13
I hope so Maaattcast May 2017 #43
My understanding, from listening to the legal experts on t.v., MoonRiver May 2017 #58
don't know the answer cynical_idealist May 2017 #67
Yeah--I tend to agree. nt zentrum May 2017 #22
Yep rpannier May 2017 #53
Yeah, faster and faster come the turning points. One Alice11111 May 2017 #66
"Turmoil in the FBI" Mr. Ected May 2017 #3
KnR for Chaz Pierce Hekate May 2017 #4
*snort* ...Camp Runamuck FirstLight May 2017 #5
FirstLight........... MyOwnPeace May 2017 #24
Ha! FirstLight May 2017 #39
Cruel and unusual punishment would be to have to diagram a tRump sentence. lastlib May 2017 #33
The word salad is strong with this one... FirstLight May 2017 #41
Common Core is working! MyOwnPeace May 2017 #46
They is learning, but not about the Civil War Nonhlanhla May 2017 #55
That would be impossible rhiannon55 May 2017 #61
Trump rarely ever completes a sentence or finishes a thought. maddiemom May 2017 #49
I wish I could rec this a million times. trof May 2017 #7
Thanks............ MyOwnPeace May 2017 #26
I like the last sentence . He is chaotic and will turn on himself (if he already hasnn't) Stuart G May 2017 #8
any time cheato says "everybody knows it" you know mopinko May 2017 #9
I also think his sniffs zentrum May 2017 #23
I'm with you on the sniffs. MontanaMama May 2017 #51
There you go. That's it. n/t zentrum May 2017 #60
So does opening his mouth. tecelote May 2017 #54
Ah hell. MontanaMama May 2017 #62
"all the persiflage" BumRushDaShow May 2017 #10
Ha! I had to look it up! nt babylonsister May 2017 #15
loved it! nt steve2470 May 2017 #64
I couldn't get past the racist phrase in the 2nd paragraph. Can you spot it? pnwmom May 2017 #11
??? babylonsister May 2017 #16
Yes. Head full of wool between the ears. n/t Beartracks May 2017 #25
His mother was Scots. Over there, wooly-headed means having wool for brains. Bernardo de La Paz May 2017 #28
Racism has existed over there as long as it has over here. That term pnwmom May 2017 #30
There have for centuries been a lot more sheep in the British Isles than Africans. Expressions come Bernardo de La Paz May 2017 #31
Would you deliberately use a phrase that has been connected to racist slurs? pnwmom May 2017 #34
No. Now that I'm sensitized to the issue, I'm less likely to use the phrase. But it was not Bernardo de La Paz May 2017 #35
Right. That n word sounds too much like the other one, even though the derivations are different. pnwmom May 2017 #38
Julian Bond, you know who he is Bernardo de La Paz May 2017 #40
I'm sorry to have to disagree with you, pnwmom, but it's a very agricultural term... Hekate May 2017 #47
Good grief. Read your own definitions. BOTH of them. pnwmom May 2017 #29
I did, and I chose the one that applied. babylonsister May 2017 #45
They both apply. The slur arose from linking "wooly heads" or "wooly hair" with "stupidity." pnwmom May 2017 #57
Oh please. Words have definitions for babylonsister May 2017 #59
You are being quite selective in your outrage. Vinnie From Indy May 2017 #56
I have several WheelWalker May 2017 #27
Or maybe just the definition? moda253 May 2017 #42
He's right again mcar May 2017 #12
"getting crowded under the bus" bora13 May 2017 #14
How I love Charlie Pierce! calimary May 2017 #17
When Trump ends up in court over this, his own every tweet and word will convict him. L. Coyote May 2017 #18
Thank you for this... dixiegrrrrl May 2017 #19
"Husks" Perfect word for the Repugs. nt zentrum May 2017 #20
"...He made a recommendation, but regardless of recommendation, I was going to fire Comey." kentuck May 2017 #21
I'm taking this paragraph and sending it to members of Congress in my state: LuckyLib May 2017 #32
If he thinks Comey is the "Showboat", what the hell is he? N/T SleeplessinSoCal May 2017 #36
He said Comey is a Showboat rpannier May 2017 #52
Nails it bucolic_frolic May 2017 #37
Charles bagimin May 2017 #44
I rec'd this thread... llmart May 2017 #48
Me Too! Mountain Mule May 2017 #50
Until hard core Rethug voters see the shit storm NoMoreRepugs May 2017 #63
"nobody alive who can stop this guy from doing anything" ? YES THERE IS... CousinIT May 2017 #65

Brother Buzz

(36,416 posts)
2. Trouble is, in my mind....We've had so many turning points.....
Thu May 11, 2017, 06:58 PM
May 2017

we're going in circles and we're poised to pirouette off the damn cliff.

Maaattcast

(18 posts)
43. I hope so
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:59 PM
May 2017

I sure hope so but I don't think we should be so confident (see the way the GOP operated last year where they were so sure Hillary would be indicted for a he ridiculous email, when anyone paying attention could clearly see from a mile away where that inquiry was headed but the GOP still lived in fantasyland).. don't get me wrong, I think the current situation is nowhere like last years email story. Every week it seems even some members of the media who initially dismissed the Russia scandal have their positions change to think this very well could be a really big deal (the Comey firing Brought a ton of people to this position). but I also don't want to delude myself.

This may seem like a totally stupid and ignorant question but it's one I've been thinking about lately.. let's say indictments were to come down related to this and they go all the way up to the President, what are the statutes and laws that are likely to be used? Indictments for what crimes could we see? Obviously with people like Flynn I can already name a boatload of potential criminal and or civil/administrative exposure for him that range the gauntlet of various federal offenses (from lying to a federal agent, to Logan act violations, to failing to report as an agent of influence for a foreign government, to failure to disclose payments from foreign governments, emoluments clause violations which is related to the payments from foreign governments, etc.). Manafort obviously also has a ton of exposure that covers a broad range of potential crimes, including anti-corruption and tax evasion statutes related to his shady secret payments from his kremlin stooge in the Ukraine...

But what about Trump, what are potential charges Trump could face? What statutes are on th books and have broad language, making it easier for prosecutors to seek indictments? (unlike Logan act violations which have never occurred) anyone have any familiarity with national security law and what the menu of options federal prosecutors could be looking at? I know I see those of us on the left throw out the word treason, but that seems incredibly unlikely even in the best of circumstances, that's just a hard charge to prove and the rare crime that's actually spelled out in the constitution. Would electoral or campaign finance law violations be more likely than national security related charges? How about cyber-related crimes? Could Trump and/or his associates be charged with cyber crimes if its shown they knew and/or approved of the hacking of the DNC's network and that of Clinton campaign chairman john podesta's? Could federal criminal conspiracy charges arise in such a scenario (even if only having knowledge of the act or would they have to direct, encourage, fund, etc, the act?). Let's say Trump directs his associates to tell the Russians when to release certain data they had hacked, would this count as a crime? Would it fit into federal conspiracy statutes?

Sorry I know that is long winded everyone! I've just been giving a lot of thought to this lately but unfortunately don't hold a law degree or expertise in national security law!

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
58. My understanding, from listening to the legal experts on t.v.,
Fri May 12, 2017, 07:39 AM
May 2017

is that the charge would be Obstruction of Justice, an impeachable crime. I'm sure he's guilty of other things, but that's the one that could bring him down, imho.

And welcome to DU!

rpannier

(24,329 posts)
53. Yep
Fri May 12, 2017, 05:52 AM
May 2017

Considering the number of times the republikkans have claimed they are concerned about something and did nothing, it kind of rings difficult
I also remember the famed 'Fitzmas' where we were going to see some high level figure dragged from the WH under Bush. Libby was it

Alice11111

(5,730 posts)
66. Yeah, faster and faster come the turning points. One
Fri May 12, 2017, 03:11 PM
May 2017

Of his defenses is to knock one story down with another.
That's why tbey need a lot of investigators, but they aren't getting them. You can bet Sessions is pulling their attention to other investigations with deadliest. He may not be directly working on the Russian investigation (except for choosing the new head, of course), but he has sandbaged the investigation by pilling too many others on top of it.

Mr. Ected

(9,670 posts)
3. "Turmoil in the FBI"
Thu May 11, 2017, 07:03 PM
May 2017

What would Mr. Trump have known about FBI discord a year ago? His ONLY awareness would likely be the conduct of the rogue NY FBI field office that undermined HRC, orchestrated by Giuliani. Like always, Trump projects. He thinks he's knocking Comey by intimating that Comey's FBI was in shambles, but in reality he's telling the world that he had a hand in the turmoil. He knows that this conduct during the campaign was illegal, but he greenlighted it, like so many other nefarious plots he has hatched and continues to hatch.

FirstLight

(13,360 posts)
5. *snort* ...Camp Runamuck
Thu May 11, 2017, 07:09 PM
May 2017

I just can't even...

Have you noticed that Trump's quotes are not even complete sentences? I thought GWB was hard to listen to/read... but this guy is nearly impossible. As a journalist, we used to have conversations in the newsroom about whether it was ethical to "fix" someone's quote grammatically or if it was best to just go with the actual wording/spelling/etc. to keep the quote TRUE
I couldn't imagine having to write up an interview with this idiot!

lastlib

(23,213 posts)
33. Cruel and unusual punishment would be to have to diagram a tRump sentence.
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:46 PM
May 2017

GEEZ, only Palin rivals him for torturing the language beyond recognition.

FirstLight

(13,360 posts)
41. The word salad is strong with this one...
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:55 PM
May 2017

right?

What does that say for Trump voters? I guess Common Core English is working "really good, really alot...like, great"

(god, I just had a 1984 flashback too... "Doublespeak&quot

MyOwnPeace

(16,925 posts)
46. Common Core is working!
Thu May 11, 2017, 10:10 PM
May 2017

#43 kept it in focus:

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"

maddiemom

(5,106 posts)
49. Trump rarely ever completes a sentence or finishes a thought.
Thu May 11, 2017, 10:55 PM
May 2017

Check the transcript from that first Time interview a month or so back. It boggles the mind!

trof

(54,256 posts)
7. I wish I could rec this a million times.
Thu May 11, 2017, 07:12 PM
May 2017

I am laughing my ass off.
Cheeks (face cheeks, not ass cheeks) are streaming.
Thank you babylonsister and Charles P. Pierce.

Stuart G

(38,419 posts)
8. I like the last sentence . He is chaotic and will turn on himself (if he already hasnn't)
Thu May 11, 2017, 07:19 PM
May 2017
But chaos turns upon itself eventually, and that may be the best shot we have.

mopinko

(70,080 posts)
9. any time cheato says "everybody knows it" you know
Thu May 11, 2017, 07:30 PM
May 2017

he is either lying, or talking about the voices in his head.

MontanaMama

(23,307 posts)
51. I'm with you on the sniffs.
Fri May 12, 2017, 01:10 AM
May 2017

One of the myriad of "tells" that he's floating a lie. Wait...what am I saying? Everything he says is a lie! His sniffs are a sign of a more thoughtful lie...one he has to make an effort at telling.

babylonsister

(171,056 posts)
16. ???
Thu May 11, 2017, 07:55 PM
May 2017

Search Results
Definition of woolly–headed. 1 : having hair suggesting wool. 2 : marked by vague or confused perception or thinking.
Woolly-headed | Definition of Woolly-headed by Merriam-Webster
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woolly-headed

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
30. Racism has existed over there as long as it has over here. That term
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:36 PM
May 2017

has racist roots. Black people were described as having wooly hair, and they were also considered to be stupid.

The link in my post connected to a discussion of the Thackery novel, Vanity Fair.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,994 posts)
31. There have for centuries been a lot more sheep in the British Isles than Africans. Expressions come
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:39 PM
May 2017

Expressions come from what people know, out of day to day experience.

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
34. Would you deliberately use a phrase that has been connected to racist slurs?
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:47 PM
May 2017

I don't think Pierce did it on purpose. But no one here should be justifying it, knowing the history of that phrase.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,994 posts)
35. No. Now that I'm sensitized to the issue, I'm less likely to use the phrase. But it was not
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:49 PM
May 2017

But it was not racist originally, to know the history of that phrase.

I don't use the perfectly good word "niggardly" even though it has no racist roots or connotations. I don't use it because it can be misunderstood.

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
38. Right. That n word sounds too much like the other one, even though the derivations are different.
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:52 PM
May 2017

It's not worth the pain it may cause to others to keep that word in usage.

Bernardo de La Paz

(48,994 posts)
40. Julian Bond, you know who he is
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:54 PM
May 2017

Julian Bond, then chairman of the NAACP, deplored the offense that had been taken at Howard's use of the word. "You hate to think you have to censor your language to meet other people's lack of understanding", he said. "David Howard should not have quit. Mayor Williams should bring him back—and order dictionaries issued to all staff who need them."[8] Bond also said, "Seems to me the mayor has been niggardly in his judgment on the issue" and that as a nation the US has a "hair-trigger sensibility" on race that can be tripped by both real and false grievances.[9]
(emphasis added)

Hekate

(90,645 posts)
47. I'm sorry to have to disagree with you, pnwmom, but it's a very agricultural term...
Thu May 11, 2017, 10:32 PM
May 2017

...like wool-gathering, meaning meandering in thought or deed. As sheep graze among grasses and bushes, some of their wool comes off in clumps on twigs and thorns. As a valuable commodity to a small farmer, someone gets to go out and gather up these bits for eventual use.

In Harry Potter, Hermione, who likes clarity in her academic studies, complains that Divination "is a very wooly subject." Her meaning is that the subject is opaque, hard to unravel, dense -- like sheep's wool.

Language changes, it is true, but the usage you complain of is in accord with the actual meaning of the word, despite Thackeray's usage of the term to describe the hair of an Afro-British girl (daughter of a rich planter, iirc) that differs profoundly from any the other girls have seen before.

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
29. Good grief. Read your own definitions. BOTH of them.
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:34 PM
May 2017

And click on the link in my post if you're still not getting it.

babylonsister

(171,056 posts)
45. I did, and I chose the one that applied.
Thu May 11, 2017, 09:31 PM
May 2017

Pierce is not a bigot or a racist; your outrage might be better served on something other than a definition of a word. Watch Maddow; she's got oodles of things to be outraged about.

pnwmom

(108,976 posts)
57. They both apply. The slur arose from linking "wooly heads" or "wooly hair" with "stupidity."
Fri May 12, 2017, 07:34 AM
May 2017

I'm not saying Pierce did this deliberately. But any who is aware of the history of the term -- like you, now -- shouldn't use it or defend its use.

There are plenty of other terms that mean "stupid" that aren't also associated with the hair texture of a minority group.

babylonsister

(171,056 posts)
59. Oh please. Words have definitions for
Fri May 12, 2017, 07:48 AM
May 2017

a reason. You just chose to be outraged about the wrong definition.

That adjective was applied to dt; how in any way does that make sense?

Vinnie From Indy

(10,820 posts)
56. You are being quite selective in your outrage.
Fri May 12, 2017, 07:15 AM
May 2017

There are several words and passages that you should include in your outrage stew.

"Camp Runamuck" WTF is this? Seems to me that Pierce is denigrating children having fun.

"the walls of the East Room ought to be discreetly padded." Here, Pierce is unashamedly mocking the mentally ill!

"iced James Comey" It seems Pierce is trying to imply that all Italians are Mafioso.

"proceeded to make clowns out of Sean Spicer, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Rod Rosenstein, and most conspicuously of all, Vice President Mike Pence" Now the age old profession of "clowns" is under assault by Pierce.

"His staff should don masks and catch rides deep into the Appalachians." Jesus H. Christ!!! What is this? It seems Pierce is attacking an entire region. I am sure the "mask" thing is something derogatory to someone, but I can't put my finger on it right now.

"He might bite the judge in the balls, or he might pin everything on Tiffany." This is clearly "in your face" sexism!!!! Why does the judge have to be a man????????

In short, you should be ashamed for letting so many hateful, bigoted words and phrases escape your outrage radar.

Cheers!

WheelWalker

(8,955 posts)
27. I have several
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:31 PM
May 2017

ovines in the barn... I must admit the thought occurred to me that he wasn't referring to their ilk

 

moda253

(615 posts)
42. Or maybe just the definition?
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:56 PM
May 2017

Definition of woolly–headed
1
: having hair suggesting wool
2
: marked by vague or confused perception or thinking

calimary

(81,220 posts)
17. How I love Charlie Pierce!
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:10 PM
May 2017

I love him-love him-love him!

There's been some totally extraordinary writing since the emergence of trump. (HAH!!! My fingers automatically typed out "emergency" there just now! Even when my brain's distracted for an instant, my fingers still know! Heeheehee!)

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
19. Thank you for this...
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:18 PM
May 2017

Just before I read it, I had listened to Olbermann's latest, and THAT was most chilling.

Very frightening that Trump saw no reason at all not to go talk at the FBI, after the firing, and no reason at all not to have the tv interview.

"Ready for my closeup, Mr. DeMille"

kentuck

(111,079 posts)
21. "...He made a recommendation, but regardless of recommendation, I was going to fire Comey."
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:24 PM
May 2017

But, he wants you to know, that "someone else" made the recommendation.

LuckyLib

(6,819 posts)
32. I'm taking this paragraph and sending it to members of Congress in my state:
Thu May 11, 2017, 08:39 PM
May 2017

"These people have bargained themselves for cheap. There are rats in all their words. They are the mere husks of public servants, and they're complicit in the act of hollowing out the republic. If they remain willing to do it, I honestly don't know where we're all going. But there is, at the moment, a sense of a great turning in events. Nobody is in control of the story right now, and ordinarily, that would be a cause for concern. But chaos turns upon itself eventually, and that may be the best shot we have."

I'm disgusted with the whole damned bunch. The WH is a freak show.

rpannier

(24,329 posts)
52. He said Comey is a Showboat
Fri May 12, 2017, 05:50 AM
May 2017

There's only room in dumpster fires world for THE SHOWBOAT
and that is the guy squatting in the White House

llmart

(15,536 posts)
48. I rec'd this thread...
Thu May 11, 2017, 10:39 PM
May 2017

just for the laugh I got from "Camp Runamuck" and the fact that he used the word "persiflage".

If I don't laugh I'll lose my mind trying to wrap my mind around what has befallen our once great country.

Mountain Mule

(1,002 posts)
50. Me Too!
Fri May 12, 2017, 01:02 AM
May 2017

I really enjoyed this part: "His staff should don masks and catch rides deep into the Appalachians. His lawyers should get out of the business. It's now abundantly clear that there simply is nobody alive who can stop this guy from doing anything. I can't imagine what he'd be like as an actual defendant. He might bite the judge in the balls, or he might pin everything on Tiffany."

My family originally comes from the Eastern Kentucky Mountains, and I got this visual of desperate DC city slickers running around, tripping over stills and trying to hide in abandoned coal shafts with coonhounds and angry local moonshiners hot on their trail. Lord, lord! It IS good to laugh now and then!

NoMoreRepugs

(9,412 posts)
63. Until hard core Rethug voters see the shit storm
Fri May 12, 2017, 11:43 AM
May 2017

they created does anyone really think Rethug congresscritters are going to do anything about it until they see how they fare in the 2018 gerrymandered voter suppressed elections? I sure don't.

CousinIT

(9,239 posts)
65. "nobody alive who can stop this guy from doing anything" ? YES THERE IS...
Fri May 12, 2017, 12:47 PM
May 2017

... CONGRESS. The issue is, they REFUSE to do it!

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