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Sun May 21, 2017, 08:29 AM

 

Indy Track Almost Too Dangerous. Obsolete W/Newer Formula 1 Cars.

I remember listening to the Indianapolis 500 in the 1950's and remember how many crashes there have been on that track. Even back then it looks like the track is not as well designed as it could be. The "brickyard" needs some serious redesign consideration to make the turns more manageable. Right now they are very dangerous at present speeds.

The speeds of the cars were dumbed down several years ago because they were beginning to get to fast for that track. And the "human" element becoming inadequate. Even the best skilled drivers are not fast amor good enough to handle the micromilleseconds it takes to safely make those turns. As good as the cars are and drivers are the risk factor is not manageable

Yesterday's crash as near 231MPH indicates there is a problem. And when you put 32 cars on the track at the same time on that track something is going to happen. Making the turns somehow more manageable would reduce the risk of an unsurvivable direct hit. Once you get probably over 20 degrees of angle you chances of being killed or injured badly grow exponentially.

The race is truly exciting but clearly something has to be done. This track is really outdated and always has been.

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Reply Indy Track Almost Too Dangerous. Obsolete W/Newer Formula 1 Cars. (Original post)
TheMastersNemesis May 2017 OP
brush May 2017 #1
MichMan May 2017 #2
TheMastersNemesis May 2017 #7
bluecollar2 May 2017 #15
Wounded Bear May 2017 #16
NWCorona May 2017 #19
HAB911 May 2017 #3
WinkyDink May 2017 #4
TheMastersNemesis May 2017 #6
TheMastersNemesis May 2017 #13
WinkyDink May 2017 #23
DefenseLawyer May 2017 #5
TheMastersNemesis May 2017 #8
Littlered9560 May 2017 #9
TheMastersNemesis May 2017 #11
Break time May 2017 #10
TheMastersNemesis May 2017 #12
Break time May 2017 #14
hunter May 2017 #17
NWCorona May 2017 #20
hunter May 2017 #24
NWCorona May 2017 #26
hunter May 2017 #27
snooper2 May 2017 #18
NWCorona May 2017 #21
discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2017 #22
flotsam May 2017 #25
LessAspin May 2017 #28

Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 08:40 AM

1. The turns are not banked enough, right? Isn't that the problem? What do you mean by...

Last edited Sun May 21, 2017, 09:30 AM - Edit history (1)

"Once you get probably over 20 degrees of angle you chances of being killed or injured badly grow exponentially."


Aren't the turns at Datona much more than that?

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 09:04 AM

2. Ridiculous analysis

The appeal of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is the historic nature of the race track that was constructed in 1909. You might as well argue that Fenway Park, Wrigley Field, Churchill Downs, Augusta or Wimbleton are "obsolete" and need to be changed.

As far as safety, racing is a dangerous sport. The fact that Bourdais survived and will race again is a testimonial to the safety advances in the cars and track. Did you know the last fatality during the race, when all 33 cars are on the track, was 44 years ago ?

FYI, these are not Formula 1 cars; that statement just shows a lack of knowledge about the sport

I will not be attending this year, but I have been to 28 Indy 500's and it is a fantastic event.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #2)

Sun May 21, 2017, 10:07 AM

7. So What Is The Difference Between Formula 1 & Indianpolis Racers?

 

Have not followed racing since the late 1950's. Only in the last two years have I watched any racing. So am not really aware of the difference. How are these two types of racing machine's different and where to each race.

My assumption is that Grand Prix and European circuit cars are Formula 1.

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Reply #7)

Sun May 21, 2017, 10:53 AM

15. main difference is price

But I'd generally say F1 are more complex.

F1 cars have energy recovery systems etc...

I enjoy watching both indy and F1...

Grew up watching F1 but appreciate the simple complexity of Indy racing.

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Reply #7)

Sun May 21, 2017, 10:56 AM

16. Formula 1 cars need to turn right...



Indy is a flattened oval, which is to say there are short straightaways at each end of the oval. There are four turns, and all of the turns are to the left. The entire race is very high speed, with speeds approaching 250mph on the longer straights, and even the turns are close to 200 or more.

Formula 1 is more of a road race, with multiple turns in both directions. They used to be run on public roads and streets, not sure how much of that still happens. I assume Monaco still does. There was an old British track that was run on a retired airport, I think that was the only real 'flat' race. Most of them involve hills, too. Speeds vary quite a bit, with some hairpin turns on some tracks where the cars slow down to 60mph or less, while the longer straights approach Indy speeds.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #2)

Sun May 21, 2017, 11:25 AM

19. To be fair. It really isn't the same track as the original.

And there is the F1 race track added in 2000.

I do agree with you about the history that you feel when you go there tho. I've been lucky enough to be on all three tracks and I wouldn't exchange that memory for anything.

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 09:06 AM

3. Make no mistake

Taxpayers will be saddled with paying for any upgrades, Republican Communism doncha know

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 09:09 AM

4. You don't explain your point about F1 (of which I am a fan). There are simply different levels of

 

cars and auto racing.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #4)

Sun May 21, 2017, 09:15 AM

6. Indy Cars Are Much Much Safer Than Their Predecessors.

 

Even with all the modern technology the speeds and the track are moving beyond the best drivers ability to negotiate these turns at the speeds they are achieving. I believe the cars were slowed down years ago because they got too fast for that track.

I do not know for sure what an engineer could do to make the track after and keep the quality of the race as it has been.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #4)

Sun May 21, 2017, 10:18 AM

13. I Know About The Different Levels. Probably Unclear About Formula 1 & Where It Races.

 

What is the difference between Formula 1 and Indy?

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Reply #13)

Sun May 21, 2017, 12:24 PM

23. F1 is the top of the racing world, re: technology. The racetracks aren't mere ovals! And NOTHING in

 

any other level compares to the Monaco F1 GP, that has drivers drive through the very streets everyone else does (not simultaneously, haha!). The vehicles themselves are way different.

"Formula One (also Formula 1 or F1 and officially the FIA Formula One World Championship) is the highest class of single-seat auto racing that is sanctioned by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA).

The FIA Formula One World Championship has been the premier form of racing since the inaugural season in 1950, although other Formula One races were regularly held until 1983. The "formula", designated in the name, refers to a set of rules, to which all participants' cars must conform.[2]

The F1 season consists of a series of races, known as Grands Prix (from French, meaning grand prizes), held worldwide on purpose-built F1 circuits and public roads."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One


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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 09:12 AM

5. Formula 1 cars don't race in the Indy 500

 

And speeds at the track are significantly slower now than they were in the 1990's.

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Response to DefenseLawyer (Reply #5)

Sun May 21, 2017, 10:09 AM

8. Explain Then What A Formula 1 Car Is & Where They Race.

 

Have not followed racing for many years. Did not watch Indy until last year. Dad listened on radio in the 1950's. I believe the cars were slowed down in the past. Now they are moving at higher speeds again. Despite the tires and the wings they are more edgy in those turns and getting beyond the limits of the best drivers from the way it looks.

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 10:09 AM

9. I take it you have never been?

 

It's perfect!

I'm sad I will miss it this year.

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Response to Littlered9560 (Reply #9)

Sun May 21, 2017, 10:12 AM

11. Only Race I Have Ever Been To Was Local Sprint Car/Stock Car In 1950's.

 

It was across from a golf course I learned to play golf at. The track is gone now. It was no more than half mile track.

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 10:12 AM

10. Talent

The idea in driving a race car is to drive, if the plan is to floor it and have the car automatically be able to negotiate the track you have little use for the driver and his judgement and abilities.

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Response to Break time (Reply #10)

Sun May 21, 2017, 10:14 AM

12. No Question Of The Super Skills It Takes To Race.

 

It is just that the Indy track as legendary as it is could be improved to keep up with the new technology of these cars.

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Reply #12)

Sun May 21, 2017, 10:19 AM

14. I agree

That the track needs some improvement if they want to allow for more speed, but abilities to judge what they need to do is there and needs to be used...or take it to Bristol...

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 11:02 AM

17. Car racing is obsolete.

Various perverse limitations are placed on all race cars because modern technology can produce vehicles whose performance far surpasses the ability of humans to control them. Racing isn't so much an open contest as it's a highly constrained dance, the players "protected" by less-than-perfect safety technology, much like U.S. football.

I can't even think of any way the rules of racing, from technology constraints to unwritten track etiquette, could be applied in ways that enhance the performance of ordinary vehicles and highway safety.

For example, imagine an all-electric 500 mile competition allowing no battery changes and requiring the use of standard, identical battery packs in all cars. Would that push electric car technology forward for ordinary cars? Probably not. It would, however, encourage the development of tricks for abusing standard battery packs in ways that significantly reduce battery lifetime beyond 500 miles.

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Response to hunter (Reply #17)

Sun May 21, 2017, 11:39 AM

20. As a class B license holder I'll have to disagree.

Passenger car safety has been greatly improved by race technology. From tire and brake pads compounds, suspension geometry , aerodynamics, impact zones, stability and traction control.

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Response to NWCorona (Reply #20)

Sun May 21, 2017, 01:45 PM

24. Not since the 'eighties, and even that's debatable.

Racing vehicles have diverged from ordinary passenger vehicles. Most every technology on modern high end race cars -- tires, brakes, entire engines -- are essentially throw-aways, definitely not designed to last 250,000 miles or more... (My wife and I both drive cars with this kind of mileage on them. I'm an indifferent mechanic, but we know some of the best mechanics in town; people who love cars. I don't like cars, but I can repair most things.)

Citing two of your examples, short-lived goopy race car tires are nothing you'd want on your own passenger car. DOT rated "competition" tires are derivative of passenger car designs, not the other way around, with mostly cosmetic changes like different sidewall decorations and a more aggressive looking tread design. Short-lived racing brake pads are similarly useless on passenger cars. DOT rated "competition" brake pads are derivative of ordinary passenger car designs. (The move away from asbestos brake pads was driven by health concerns, not competition. Asbestos is a carcinogen.)

Don't take my car skepticism personally. I have two brothers who are car and motorcycle enthusiasts and both did a lot of racing when they were young, with all the scars and permanent injuries that go along with that. They always had bikes like this:



and the occasional dangerously over-powered Lamborghini or Porsche.

Yeah, I've driven those, but I'd never buy anything like that. Hell, I'd be happy if I never bought a car again and my current car reaches 500,000 miles or beyond.

I seem to be missing whatever gene it is that makes people appreciate aggressive driving and fast cars and bikes, but my wife has it, and one of our kids has it. Our kid learned the hard way that owning a high performance car and driving it too fast attracts the attention of the Highway Patrol. He sold the fast car and bought a boring entirely nondescript car just one ticket away from license suspension.



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Response to hunter (Reply #24)

Sun May 21, 2017, 03:23 PM

26. Not since the 80's? We will have to disagree.

Your point is like saying that military technology doesn't cross over to civilian applications.

The Machining and metallurgy used in race cars have drastically increased the longevity and efficiency of production car engines.


"DOT rated "competition" tires are derivative of passenger car designs, not the other way around, "

You couldn't be more wrong on that. First there isn't a such thing a "competition" DOT approved tires. I'd love to have some tho. Modern race compounds have greatly improved speed ratings and stickiness of passenger car tires. Also racing brake technology has crossed over. Look at the organic pads as well as carbon.

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Response to NWCorona (Reply #26)

Sun May 21, 2017, 04:58 PM

27. I'd argue the same about military technology, maybe all but trauma care.

Too many military trauma and PTSD veterans to study.



A long, long time ago I developed some software that shockingly (to me anyways) turned out to have some military application. Raised as a pacifist, I fled. Maybe a rational person would have stayed for the money, but I was not that person. My partner-in-crime later bought a house in La Jolla with the tainted proceeds. Maybe I'm just some sort of idiot.

One of my grandfathers was an Army Air Force officer in World War II. I gather he did what he had to do to get the job done, dirty deeds done dirt cheap, with Italian and Russian connections. But he never talked about that. His greatest pride was the work he did as an engineer to land men on the moon. I've got his metal-has-been-in-space medallions. There are other bits of metal he conceived, touched, on the moon and in the Smithsonian.

My other grandfather was a Conscientious Objector in World War II, refusing to put himself in any position he might have to directly kill anyone. So they gave him a choice of imprisonment or building and repairing Liberty and Victory ships. He was a welder, he built and repaired the ships.



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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 11:06 AM

18. micromilleseconds is not a thing- there are microseconds, and milliseconds

 

but you can't go combing those two LOL

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 11:40 AM

21. I don't think most people realize that there are multiple race tracks at Indy

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 11:52 AM

22. For reference: the brickyard

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Sun May 21, 2017, 02:00 PM

25. To help put this in perspective...

30 years ago Bill Elliott qualified a nascar ford at 212.809 mph at Talladega Alabama. Nascar decided that was too fast and the following year introduced restrictor plates to reduce airflow area through the base of the carburetor. This rule applied only at Talledega and Daytona where the cars were running too high a speed. All other tracks continue to run unrestricted. The size of the openings has been decreased several times since when the speeds rose too much over 200 mph.

It's up to the sanctioning body to set the rules. Engines can be restricted easily in a half dozen ways. But first the sanctioning body must decide what speed is a reasonable risk.

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Response to TheMastersNemesis (Original post)

Mon May 22, 2017, 11:25 AM

28. Not just Dangerous on the Track...

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