General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIndy Track Almost Too Dangerous. Obsolete W/Newer Formula 1 Cars.
I remember listening to the Indianapolis 500 in the 1950's and remember how many crashes there have been on that track. Even back then it looks like the track is not as well designed as it could be. The "brickyard" needs some serious redesign consideration to make the turns more manageable. Right now they are very dangerous at present speeds.
The speeds of the cars were dumbed down several years ago because they were beginning to get to fast for that track. And the "human" element becoming inadequate. Even the best skilled drivers are not fast amor good enough to handle the micromilleseconds it takes to safely make those turns. As good as the cars are and drivers are the risk factor is not manageable
Yesterday's crash as near 231MPH indicates there is a problem. And when you put 32 cars on the track at the same time on that track something is going to happen. Making the turns somehow more manageable would reduce the risk of an unsurvivable direct hit. Once you get probably over 20 degrees of angle you chances of being killed or injured badly grow exponentially.
The race is truly exciting but clearly something has to be done. This track is really outdated and always has been.
brush
(53,764 posts)Last edited Sun May 21, 2017, 09:30 AM - Edit history (1)
"Once you get probably over 20 degrees of angle you chances of being killed or injured badly grow exponentially."
Aren't the turns at Datona much more than that?
MichMan
(11,910 posts)The appeal of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is the historic nature of the race track that was constructed in 1909. You might as well argue that Fenway Park, Wrigley Field, Churchill Downs, Augusta or Wimbleton are "obsolete" and need to be changed.
As far as safety, racing is a dangerous sport. The fact that Bourdais survived and will race again is a testimonial to the safety advances in the cars and track. Did you know the last fatality during the race, when all 33 cars are on the track, was 44 years ago ?
FYI, these are not Formula 1 cars; that statement just shows a lack of knowledge about the sport
I will not be attending this year, but I have been to 28 Indy 500's and it is a fantastic event.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)Have not followed racing since the late 1950's. Only in the last two years have I watched any racing. So am not really aware of the difference. How are these two types of racing machine's different and where to each race.
My assumption is that Grand Prix and European circuit cars are Formula 1.
bluecollar2
(3,622 posts)But I'd generally say F1 are more complex.
F1 cars have energy recovery systems etc...
I enjoy watching both indy and F1...
Grew up watching F1 but appreciate the simple complexity of Indy racing.
Wounded Bear
(58,647 posts)Indy is a flattened oval, which is to say there are short straightaways at each end of the oval. There are four turns, and all of the turns are to the left. The entire race is very high speed, with speeds approaching 250mph on the longer straights, and even the turns are close to 200 or more.
Formula 1 is more of a road race, with multiple turns in both directions. They used to be run on public roads and streets, not sure how much of that still happens. I assume Monaco still does. There was an old British track that was run on a retired airport, I think that was the only real 'flat' race. Most of them involve hills, too. Speeds vary quite a bit, with some hairpin turns on some tracks where the cars slow down to 60mph or less, while the longer straights approach Indy speeds.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)And there is the F1 race track added in 2000.
I do agree with you about the history that you feel when you go there tho. I've been lucky enough to be on all three tracks and I wouldn't exchange that memory for anything.
HAB911
(8,880 posts)Taxpayers will be saddled with paying for any upgrades, Republican Communism doncha know
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)cars and auto racing.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)Even with all the modern technology the speeds and the track are moving beyond the best drivers ability to negotiate these turns at the speeds they are achieving. I believe the cars were slowed down years ago because they got too fast for that track.
I do not know for sure what an engineer could do to make the track after and keep the quality of the race as it has been.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)What is the difference between Formula 1 and Indy?
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)any other level compares to the Monaco F1 GP, that has drivers drive through the very streets everyone else does (not simultaneously, haha!). The vehicles themselves are way different.
"Formula One (also Formula 1 or F1 and officially the FIA Formula One World Championship) is the highest class of single-seat auto racing that is sanctioned by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA).
The FIA Formula One World Championship has been the premier form of racing since the inaugural season in 1950, although other Formula One races were regularly held until 1983. The "formula", designated in the name, refers to a set of rules, to which all participants' cars must conform.[2]
The F1 season consists of a series of races, known as Grands Prix (from French, meaning grand prizes), held worldwide on purpose-built F1 circuits and public roads."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)And speeds at the track are significantly slower now than they were in the 1990's.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)Have not followed racing for many years. Did not watch Indy until last year. Dad listened on radio in the 1950's. I believe the cars were slowed down in the past. Now they are moving at higher speeds again. Despite the tires and the wings they are more edgy in those turns and getting beyond the limits of the best drivers from the way it looks.
Littlered9560
(72 posts)It's perfect!
I'm sad I will miss it this year.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)It was across from a golf course I learned to play golf at. The track is gone now. It was no more than half mile track.
Break time
(195 posts)The idea in driving a race car is to drive, if the plan is to floor it and have the car automatically be able to negotiate the track you have little use for the driver and his judgement and abilities.
TheMastersNemesis
(10,602 posts)It is just that the Indy track as legendary as it is could be improved to keep up with the new technology of these cars.
Break time
(195 posts)That the track needs some improvement if they want to allow for more speed, but abilities to judge what they need to do is there and needs to be used...or take it to Bristol...
hunter
(38,310 posts)Various perverse limitations are placed on all race cars because modern technology can produce vehicles whose performance far surpasses the ability of humans to control them. Racing isn't so much an open contest as it's a highly constrained dance, the players "protected" by less-than-perfect safety technology, much like U.S. football.
I can't even think of any way the rules of racing, from technology constraints to unwritten track etiquette, could be applied in ways that enhance the performance of ordinary vehicles and highway safety.
For example, imagine an all-electric 500 mile competition allowing no battery changes and requiring the use of standard, identical battery packs in all cars. Would that push electric car technology forward for ordinary cars? Probably not. It would, however, encourage the development of tricks for abusing standard battery packs in ways that significantly reduce battery lifetime beyond 500 miles.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)Passenger car safety has been greatly improved by race technology. From tire and brake pads compounds, suspension geometry , aerodynamics, impact zones, stability and traction control.
hunter
(38,310 posts)Racing vehicles have diverged from ordinary passenger vehicles. Most every technology on modern high end race cars -- tires, brakes, entire engines -- are essentially throw-aways, definitely not designed to last 250,000 miles or more... (My wife and I both drive cars with this kind of mileage on them. I'm an indifferent mechanic, but we know some of the best mechanics in town; people who love cars. I don't like cars, but I can repair most things.)
Citing two of your examples, short-lived goopy race car tires are nothing you'd want on your own passenger car. DOT rated "competition" tires are derivative of passenger car designs, not the other way around, with mostly cosmetic changes like different sidewall decorations and a more aggressive looking tread design. Short-lived racing brake pads are similarly useless on passenger cars. DOT rated "competition" brake pads are derivative of ordinary passenger car designs. (The move away from asbestos brake pads was driven by health concerns, not competition. Asbestos is a carcinogen.)
Don't take my car skepticism personally. I have two brothers who are car and motorcycle enthusiasts and both did a lot of racing when they were young, with all the scars and permanent injuries that go along with that. They always had bikes like this:
and the occasional dangerously over-powered Lamborghini or Porsche.
Yeah, I've driven those, but I'd never buy anything like that. Hell, I'd be happy if I never bought a car again and my current car reaches 500,000 miles or beyond.
I seem to be missing whatever gene it is that makes people appreciate aggressive driving and fast cars and bikes, but my wife has it, and one of our kids has it. Our kid learned the hard way that owning a high performance car and driving it too fast attracts the attention of the Highway Patrol. He sold the fast car and bought a boring entirely nondescript car just one ticket away from license suspension.
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)Your point is like saying that military technology doesn't cross over to civilian applications.
The Machining and metallurgy used in race cars have drastically increased the longevity and efficiency of production car engines.
"DOT rated "competition" tires are derivative of passenger car designs, not the other way around, "
You couldn't be more wrong on that. First there isn't a such thing a "competition" DOT approved tires. I'd love to have some tho. Modern race compounds have greatly improved speed ratings and stickiness of passenger car tires. Also racing brake technology has crossed over. Look at the organic pads as well as carbon.
hunter
(38,310 posts)Too many military trauma and PTSD veterans to study.
A long, long time ago I developed some software that shockingly (to me anyways) turned out to have some military application. Raised as a pacifist, I fled. Maybe a rational person would have stayed for the money, but I was not that person. My partner-in-crime later bought a house in La Jolla with the tainted proceeds. Maybe I'm just some sort of idiot.
One of my grandfathers was an Army Air Force officer in World War II. I gather he did what he had to do to get the job done, dirty deeds done dirt cheap, with Italian and Russian connections. But he never talked about that. His greatest pride was the work he did as an engineer to land men on the moon. I've got his metal-has-been-in-space medallions. There are other bits of metal he conceived, touched, on the moon and in the Smithsonian.
My other grandfather was a Conscientious Objector in World War II, refusing to put himself in any position he might have to directly kill anyone. So they gave him a choice of imprisonment or building and repairing Liberty and Victory ships. He was a welder, he built and repaired the ships.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)but you can't go combing those two LOL
NWCorona
(8,541 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)flotsam
(3,268 posts)30 years ago Bill Elliott qualified a nascar ford at 212.809 mph at Talladega Alabama. Nascar decided that was too fast and the following year introduced restrictor plates to reduce airflow area through the base of the carburetor. This rule applied only at Talledega and Daytona where the cars were running too high a speed. All other tracks continue to run unrestricted. The size of the openings has been decreased several times since when the speeds rose too much over 200 mph.
It's up to the sanctioning body to set the rules. Engines can be restricted easily in a half dozen ways. But first the sanctioning body must decide what speed is a reasonable risk.