I know, I know Occupy is dead... right

[nadinbrzezinski]

Wrong... here is Occupy San Diego, with allied groups marching in San Diego today against the TPP

[geek tragedy]

1. Not dead, but not terribly relevant.

Pretty much the same importance as groups like Code Pink.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Just because the Corporate media tells you this

it is not so.

In this town they are quite relevant, in spite of the Elite's best efforts, and they are evolving, and evolving hard.

[hack89]

11. So what changes can you point at that were solely due to OWS? nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

67. I'll tell you the biggest thing Occupy did.

Just say, "We are the 99%" and EVERYBODY knows what that's all about and it triggers a discussion that NEEDS to happen.

The MSM was ignoring the 99% vs 1% issue before.

They can argue about the merits of the 1% getting so much but that STILL forces them to address the reality that so much of the nation's wealth is concentrated into the hands of the few.

You can't dismiss that accomplishment lightly.

[lovemydog]

85. That's hugely significant

because words matter, especially when you get people speaking words they have not spoken before. They start thinking of things they haven't thought they were capable of doing. For example, I know of two people where I live who are starting businesses (one a cooperative art space, the other raising capital to create many jobs here) who were dramatically shaken out of lethargy by the OWS movement. I know for me it's gotten me much more in touch and involved with younger people. Many good things will come as a result of this. The first one (and it can't be underestimated) is getting us out of our alienation and away from our computers, having fun together outside our own comfort zones.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

89. "getting us out of our alienation and away from our computers"

What? And leave all this?

Well, let's see,...does having a beer with a neighbor while I replaced a ball joint and tie rod end on his car count? That was how an hour went today.

[lovemydog]

90. That counts

So does visiting a whacky art installation for an hour today to talk with someone for whom I have the hots. I got her number.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

92. You got a number.

I got down and dirty.

[lovemydog]

93. Perhaps on another day

our hours will be reversed.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

96. Wanna do a clutch job?

I'll give ya a beer.

[hack89]

99. That was a significant accomplishment. nt

[sabrina 1]

71. They single-handedly stopped all the talk of the people 'sharing the sacrifice'

meaning politicians were trying to make the American people pay the debts of the gamblers on Wall Street. How long is it since you heard this president use that 'Austerity' language now? Not since OWS made it clear that the people should never be asked to pay the debts of corrupt bankers.

What changes did they make? Ask NY US Attorney Schneiderman who credits OWS for his ability to refuse to sign the original agreement all US Attorneys were being asked to sign which would have let the Banks off the hook and free from prosecution, when the pressure was on him to sign that agreement.

He made a point of saying that it was BECAUSE of OWS that he had the courage not to succumb to that pressure, and as a result, the Banks did not get the deal that they thought would be so easy to get from Politicians.

As a result, people like my friend, at one time threatened with the inability to be compensated for the illegal foreclosure of her home, will now be able to sue Wells Fargo and their crooked Law Mill, now closed down, run by Stephen Baum.

As Schneiderman said, without OWS this would not have been possible. That is a huge victory, and if they did nothing else, that alone would have been enough.

They were also responsible for forcing BOA to drop the fees they were planning to impose on their customers when they got involved in 'Move Your Money Day' causing billions of dollars to be moved from the Big Banks into Community Banks and Credit Unions.

Show me one time when Congress was able to stop the banks from doing anything.

They are directly responsible for keeping several American families in their homes having helped stop illegal foreclosures. How many homes did Congress save again?

THANK YOU OWS, for my friend who was nearly screwed for a second time by a weak Congress willing to bow to the demands of the Banks, and for all those who are NOT paying fees, that Congress would not stop, thanks to YOU.

The list is long and continues to grow. Iow, OWS has been far more effective in its short existence, at actually helping the American people, than Congress has over the several years.

OWS = Patriots.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

91. responsible for forcing BOA to drop the fees they were planning

I couldn't believe that.

Then there was the event at Citibank where they dragged a woman inside to arrest her for trespassing. That outrage caused a LOT of accounts to be closed.

BTW: Has anyone noticed some of the smaller banks are gone? One by us that was on the list is now a Chase.

[bvar22]

117. OWS changed the tone and direction of Obama's SOTU address from

Time to eat our Peas Austerity for the 99%

to

Economic Fairness for the 99%.

THAT is a fairly major influence
even taking for granted that the SOTU address has morphed into meaningless words put together by the Party Marketing Team.

OWS has also changed YOUR life.
Just the fact that you know the phrase "OWS" indicates change.
Whether that change becomes growth or entrenchment and regression is entirely up to you.

[goclark]

155. Right You Are... " we are the 99%" Kick/R

They make me proud to be an American

[geek tragedy]

22. What difference are they making?

Who is even paying attention?

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Well locally they have brought attention to a few

City messes, and are part of the conglomerate of groups trying to stop an energy power plant at mission trails. That's just one example.

Second, brought attention to multiple city councils on the issues with San Onofre, last time I checked the NRC has an issue just looking the other way.

Those are just two examples.

So what have you done?

[MiaCulpa]

49. Many people don't understand what the Occupy movement is about.

It's not a political movement, like the tea party. It's a social movement. Far, far, from dead. Occupiers all over the country are working within their communities, and with other groups that work within communities on specific projects.

I write at Crooks and Liars now, the Occupy America page mostly, and this article about Occupy Atlanta from this week tells some of what they've been up to:

http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/occupy-atlanta-rescue-single-mom-falls

a single mom with 12 kids was ripped off by a fake landlord, and may now lose her kids because she doesn't have a home. Occupy Atlanta is working to purchase a home for her and refurbish it with skilled workers donating their time, or building new. They had land donated to them just this past week.

Nearly all the Occupy groups have been working on a permanent location for them to at least be able to meet and organize their efforts. The events that have been held take a great deal of planning and effort, and they get better at it each time. Even if their numbers don't seem as great at any particular event, don't forget there are an untold number of them working behind the scenes.

If it has anything to do with making communities better, or life better for the 99%, that's what they are doing. They're saving people from foreclosures, finding housing for the homeless, teaching others to organize and be heard, feeding the hungry, finding help for the sick, keeping people informed on important issues, and on and on.

Sure there have been some who don't think they are doing enough, or not doing what they want them to do, and have left discouraged. But this is a social movement that is here to stay.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. I should look at crooks and liars

More often

[MiaCulpa]

54. The more the merrier! :) eom

.

[goclark]

79. OCCUPY movement Contains Brave and True Warriors

I'm with them all the Way!

I want to donate to them - need a link
Thanks!

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. Indeed they do

[lovemydog]

127. In your local area you can find them

through some phone calls and / or facebook posts.

That's how I found them here.

[goclark]

154. Thanks!

[lovemydog]

86. Thank you for the excellent examples

of the positive benefits of social interaction. I just watched a c-span discussion among some cool people at a nobel peace prize forum. Pretty much all of them were talking (in their own unique ways) about the same thing. That you don't have to move to Kenya to effect positive change. We know there is something terribly wrong with a system that cannot or will not provide enough sustainable jobs for people who truly want to work. Anyone can start her/his own community. There are myriad examples of people helping people, both on micro and macro levels. It must happen because there is no other way than by beginning to take the first small steps. When it's positive and fun, people learn and like you say, becomes a social movement that's here to stay!

[Zalatix]

4. *facepalm*

[sabrina 1]

61. Lol, but way more relevant that Congress. How many people has Congress kept in their

homes saving them from illegal foreclosures? And how many has OWS saved?

How many court cases is OWS winning against corrupt Law Enforcement while exposing their oppression of the Press and their willingness to lie under oath, AND make false arrests?

How many former Wall Street employees have left Wall Street and joined OWS?

How many elected officials have joined OWS and how many OWS members are running for office?

How many cities are working with OWS to find housing for the homeless? How much has Congress done for the Homeless by comparison?

I love it that while OWS has been busy all over the world, the MSM has stopped covering them, and a few people think that this means they are no longer 'relevant'?

You are funny! Haven't you learned, that OWS does not WANT the MSM Propaganda machine to cover them, that they now have their OWN MEDIA?

You can be sure however, that Wall St. knows how relevant they are, how the movement is evolving and growing and just how effective they are and continue to be.

Too bad you rely only on the MSM. See how little you learn from watching the MSM?

[Puregonzo1188]

81. And what exactly is terribly relevant? Pray tell me.

[Magoo48]

191. OWS is either for you or it is not...

It is counterproductive to sit on the sidelines and pontificate about the relevance of a movement that scares the shit out of the PTB. Why, I wonder, have cash-strapped cities all across this nation spent millions of dollars to repress and oppress this "not terribly relevant" movement.

If we have better ideas, we can take them to our closest GA for their consideration. If we have a better approach, we can launch something new entirely. Casting cyber stones is disrespectful to people who are trying their damnedest to bring about positive change for the majority of us.

Like most of us, I can review the passing parade of news on my machine and identify the problems....not really a great feat. Those who take to the streets in an attempt to get things started deserve nothing less than loud encouragement, and at the very least.....quiet respect.

[Le Taz Hot]

204. "Occupy Fresno: Longest Continuous Occupation in the United States"

These guys aren't going anywhere.

http://occupyfresnoca.com/2012/06/07/occupy-fresno-longest-continuous-occupation-in-the-united-states/

[vanlassie]

207. Fresno! Home of Freerepublic Whoo Hoo! Saw them yesterday!

[Le Taz Hot]

221. That whooshing sound you heard

was the point flying over your head. Besides home of Occupy Fresno we're also home of Peace Fresno but don't let facts get in the way of your tiresome agenda. Btw, how many people from your town are members of FR? Don't answer that, it's rhetorical.

[vanlassie]

226. Ok maybe I was not clear.

The WooHoo was for Fresno, the home of my birth and the place where Occupy is still encamped.

I LOVE that Occupy enjoys this number one status in the home of FR.

(Also if you check my multiple posts in this topic....well....you will figure it out.)

[Le Taz Hot]

230. Actually you weren't clear at all

which is why you got the snark.

And for the record, with very few exceptions I can rarely tell one DUer from another much less keep up with anyone's trail of posts. It's just not that important -- nothing personal.

Now, having said that, if my snark was misplaced, I humbly apologize.

[vanlassie]

231. Well, yeah, it was a bit over the top.

Thank you for apologizing.

[Le Taz Hot]

237. Over the top? LOL!

Most people around here will tell you that I idle at "over the top."

[Teamster Jeff]

2. Awesome! Great pics n/t

[Downwinder]

5. And I am grateful.

They are doing for me what I cannot do.

The same as the people in the MS walks and other marches for causes. If I had transportation and one of those WWII hospital beds with big gurney wheels I would be there in more than spirit.

If you go back tell them thank you for me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Next time they take to the streets

I know they're part of my beat.

[malaise]

7. LOL

Occupy is not going away. I have news for those who believe that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. You know what sucked?

I was literally shifting between black and white and color while running to keep up.

My legs ars all but happy.

Hey, I got my work out too!

[Blanks]

118. The workout alone is worth the effort.

I agree that people are getting away from their computers and interacting outdoors is one of the major pluses.

Anyone who thinks that the OWS movement is dead isn't paying attention to the seasons.

Spring is when people plant and prepare for the summer. The Occupy movement started last fall. The end of the growing season. That is when it should be active.

The local bunch went to Philadelphia Pennsylvania with a bunch of other groups for the 4th. I saw a thread on here about occupy in Philly before I went to the local group's page and read that they went there.

I don't agree with the methods of the movement. Being former military; I tend toward a well established command structure. This goes contrary to the movement. My wife explains to me that I just don't understand. I agree, but I am still glad that they are out there as a thorn in the side. I wish I could join them, but just as I don't contribute money to entities that look at money as the only solution to all of their problems (i.e. politicians); I don't give them money, but I've given them eggs and pecans.

I wish they would pick a product to boycott; that way the world could see just how much clout they have.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. Well at least locally we have plenty of vets

And they welcome vets.

[PufPuf23]

8. Thanks for the pictures and reportage.

One could think that OSW support is down because DU OWS posts have declined and many of DUs 's more prolific posters are less than supportive of OWS.

I want OWS to be robust and read the threads.

[Zalatix]

9. When I cannot be there, I donate.

[socialist_n_TN]

12. Occupy was just the next step in the fight back.........

against the 1%. It began in Wisconsin over specific economic issues. That got tied up in the recall elections and then Occupy came along and made it more about general economic issues. Now, Occupy is waning, but that's OK because Occupy is NOT the final step in the process. As long as the economic elite keep doing what they do (and does anybody REALLY believe they'll stop on their own?), there'll be another step and it will be MORE militant than Occupy. It will also be more focused and have better strategy and tactics.

The remnents of Occupy along with the remnents of the Wisconsin movement will be part of the new movement, but there will be more people and as I said above, more militant actions. It's inevitable as long as the capitalists keep pushing the rest of us into neo-feudalism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Just one correction, they are not waning, they are evolving

I know, I know, small technical point.

After all the internal fights and all that, at least this town has a movement that is not going anywhere, a social justice movement.

[socialist_n_TN]

17. OK. Evolving is OK too..........

That's kind of what I said. I think that Occupy will provide a core of support for the newer movements that come about in the future. But they WILL have to evolve into something more along the lines of Occupy Oakland. IOW, more militant and more focused on a true socialist agenda. One of my Worker's Power comrades was at the national Occupy meeting in Philadelphia this past week and his report was pretty interesting. Although he wasn't really that impressed with the turnout, he did say that the small socialist contingent was taking the lead in the discussions there.

On a related point, I think it's interesting that Occupy is stronger in the smaller cities. I know Nashville still has a group that meets pretty regularly. I don't really know what it means, I just think it's interesting.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Today we had a contingent from Bayan

Google that, you are in for a surprise.

The Colectivo Zapstista was there too...

I saw it early on, it's accelerating...the radicalization that is.

[dkf]

76. Radicalization is the opposite of civility.

All it does is further polarize the debate. In the end I think we will see the rational middle stuck with the crazed extremes on both sides. That will be the downfall of it all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Ok...whatever

Expected development, not just in the US...in fact, we're trailing.

That said... Civility is not working...or did you know the USTR refused to show negotiation material to a US senator? That is just tip of iceberg of why this is happening, and we're trailing.

[HiPointDem]

84. i'm always so glad for your posts so i can learn the latest establishment talking points.

[dkf]

88. Well it's better than the alternative.

Sometimes this side of the grass is the greener side. I don't think we appreciate what we have.

[HiPointDem]

94. the 'alternative' being....?

[dkf]

97. There are 6 billion other people we could swap with.

The odds of finding yourself in a better situation aren't very good I would think.

[rhett o rick]

141. I know, isnt change soooo scary? Why dont people realize that the Koch Bros will take good

care of us minions. We just have to behave ourselves and not go doing anything radical like beg for our freedom.

[socialist_n_TN]

108. You want "civility"? No problem...........

It would be EASY as pie to keep the radicalization at bay. Just get your buds in the 1% to call off the dogs in the race towards neo-feudalism. Higher taxes on the wealthy, repeal of Citizen's United, public and ONLY public funding of elections, Medicare for All, education for all, minimum living wage, etc.

Just get them to do that and you'd have no problem with the left side of the polarized debate. You can't radicalize people who are happy with the way things are.

[sabrina 1]

140. We're already seeing that, and OWS is the rational middle which is growing

and edging out the 'extremists', such as the teabaggers.

All you have to do to help speed up the process, is take advantage of the way this movement is structured, and join them in delivering their very focused message which has now been heard from Wall Street to Congress and across the Globe.

Or you could just sit at a computer and criticize those who are actually trying to do something.

[rhett o rick]

142. I dont know, maybe he has a point. Freedom is probably over rated. Wouldnt it be nice to

drink the Kool Aid and let the Koch Bros take care of us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. Hey some kool aid, with ice mind you,

would have been nice after that workout!

[rhett o rick]

156. Sure and while you're at it add some vodka. Oh yeah, hold the Kool Aid. nm

[nadinbrzezinski]

168. Alcohol sucks for dehydration

not a joke, I was so drenched I had to get to the shower, and my shooting vest is in the washer right now!

Absolutely drenched.

[rhett o rick]

175. Yeah I know. I just put more "rocks" in my vodka for the hydration.

jk

[hack89]

13. The Tea Party held a demonstration in San Diego the same day.

it would be interesting to compare numbers of participants.

[vanlassie]

33. 300 tea baggers

according to San Diego News.
wow.

[hack89]

41. How many OWS? nt

[vanlassie]

46. You have no Google?

[hack89]

297. Nadine posted it below. 500 people - just a little more than the Tea Party. nt

[Trajan]

15. It has very little support, outside of some dedicated enthusiasts ...

As much as I wish it would be effective, I greatly doubt it will 'catch fire' with the general electorate ....

Early on, it seemed regular working families did embrace this movement, but, it kind of petered out into a rather exclusive sect of jaded anarchists .... The prospect of firebombs and brick throwing hampers the ability to grow the movement into the mainstream ...

Moms and Dads are not going to bring their children to a march that might become a violent melee .... It isnt a path that will capture the hearts and minds of the core of society .... This is unfortunate, because the cause is valid and just ....

Not sure how to fix it ....

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. That is the MSM talking

Moms, kids, regular working class Americans were there.

Women Occupy San Diego is as ice cream and apple pie as it gets.

So yes, you also have your anarchists, but seriously you just repeated hard core MSM memes.

I know, it takes getting out there...but highly recommended.

On the bright side at least you did not tell me of the drug users and the rapes.

[vanlassie]

28. +1,000,000.

Occupy is Very Much Alive. Thanks for the pics.

[zeemike]

42. And why not after hearing those things day in and day out over and over again.

And lies repeated often enough become the truth as Dr Gobbles once said.
The media is skilled at framing things the way they want them to be...and even some on the left are fooled by it.
And that is why the Tea Party is a success and the OWS a failure...and don't expect to hear anything different in the MSM.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. I'll be surprised if channel eight

Drop ,e with a feather, does a descent job tonight.

To their credit, they had a camera guy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. Channel eight was "saved" be breaking nooz

Water main broke on the way to the airport.

Of course they did not even do a good job with that either. Why talk of aging infrastructure and money needed?

[zeemike]

120. See...you were not surprised.

And we rarely are.

[quakerboy]

36. One cure comes to mind

To start being honest about it.

You are right in that parents are reluctant to bring kids to a march that might turn violent. But the violence has been a police production. The threats to children are from officers misusing their authority and their teargas. And that is why people are afraid to go out to marches.

As to capturing hearts and minds.. we are there. When I can sit down with my drunken RW gun enthusiast, racist uncle and we are on the same page about taxes and corporations, when he can at the end of the conversation say.. hey I never realised that about the XL pipeline, maybe the democrats were right to block it, maybe Obama is not such a bad option... We are there.

But the power is not with the people. The power is with the politicians and the money

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Should I add piccies of children I took?

They were not that great.

[quakerboy]

59. Might be good.

There are some that will be there. The core. The ones who care and who will not let that fear stop them from participating in what they feel is important.

But there are more that will stay home. Even at the height of Occupy, there were more that stayed home. Here in PDX there were 10k that first day. It was magnificent and empowering. But it meant that there were 570k that stayed home. And now, with the police in even what are often considered liberal bastions proving that they are not just willing, but intent on making free speech dangerous, I cant think that makes more people reluctant to participate. Its the rare person that really wants to be on the receiving end of a billy club or a teargas canister.

I admire those still out there. I wonder if there is still an occupy here in Portland. I lost touch with it over winter.

[sabrina 1]

64. Wow, I guess you are depending on the MSM for 'news' of OWS.

Did you know that OWS has its own media now and do not want the MSM covering them?

Moms and dads all over the country are part of OWS and the movement keeps growing. They have spent the past several months moving into other constructive areas where they are having a real effect on the lives of real people. Eg, saving people's homes from foreclosure. They have saved more people's homes from corrupt and illegal foreclosures over the past few months, than Congress has done in several years.

And each time they put themselves out there for people, more people join the movement.

Right now, they are being super successful in the courts, exposing the corruption and lies and perjury of the Police. Moving to the next stage, filing lawsuits on behalf of the Press and Elected Officials who were abused by the Police, AFTER winning their cases in court.

Please do not for a moment think that because the MSM has stopped covering them, thankfully, that the movement has gone away. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I am very excited about the continued growth of this movement, which btw, was only meant to last one month when it began, and the direction in which it is now going.

Just last week, eg, they were in Philadelphia, from all over the country, and were asked by Veterans groups to help them protest on the 4th July, which of course they did.

This movement is like all other social justice movments, it is now in its infancy, way, way more successful than anyone had dreamed it would be just months ago when it began. It will be around for years, because it will take years to fix the problems that sparked the movement in the first place.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. And the kid bemoaning three months in, "nothing has changed"

Now understands this is a life time struggle. He's matured, as the movement has.

[Brickbat]

16. How many people were there?

It's hard to tell from your pictures. Did they do more than march and bang noisemakers?

[randome]

19. They're against Toilet Paper Products now? Where will it end????

[vanlassie]

25. Ummm....only Koch Brothers paper products.....

Where it ends matters very much.

[julian09]

21. Photos mean nothing, if they are only a reminder of what could have been, a meaningful and just

movement for the good of all, not just posing for the cameras. They had the worlds attention and chose to march rather than inspire people to come together and change things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. So what have you done lately?

I know what they have done.

They ran a conference, for example, on the TTP all this week.

So exactly what have you done? Just because the corporate media does not cover this, does not mean it's not happening.

As to pose to the cameras, taking to the streets kind of kills the they're gone meme.

[julian09]

32. I'm more interested at what happened at the conference, could you throw light on that.

I'm more of a Jesse Lagreca enthusiast. Need political solutions and leadership from occupy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. They educated people on what TTP will do

Most Americans have no clue that this will be...NAFTA on steroids.

They realize the first step in any resistance is education.

And those of us who covered the actual conference found a virtual wall of silence. Less we actually unravel what is going on in there.

[Raine]

24. The media seems to think it's dead or maybe they are trying to kill it.

Sadly I haven't seen a thing about it on the TV "news". They put on repeats of crap they covered earlier in the week like Justin Beiber speeding but can't cover this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Just read this thread

Literally, pound nails back in.

[limpyhobbler]

29. can't kill an idea. k+r

[limpyhobbler]

30. And thanks to everyone in San Diego demonstrating during this.

I'm sure you are speaking for many who would like to be there but cannot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. My role is press

Have filed story with even more photos already.

(Indie press)

[Kalidurga]

31. Seems to me that Occupy has done it's job

Since they got started I have felt that there is a push in liberal circles anyway to the left. I think they are helping us define what liberalism is what libertarians are and the direction we need to go. lots more work to be done though....

[julian09]

38. How the race for the presidency can be close is beyond me

wait til the money really kicks into the race, we will need occupy to stand for truth and expose the lies that will be coming. Time to be heard as well as seen.

[orpupilofnature57]

35. It's more than physical occupation now ,it's

identifying the cause for our misery , Greed !!!! ,, and the people that facilitate, protect and profit from it .

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. It's evolved, indeed

[alp227]

44. Same in Norcal!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014161157

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. It is evolving

[Fire Walk With Me]

47. Kick.

[DeSwiss]

48. K&R

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. That is a fav graphic of mine.

[4lbs]

50. I just hope that all that marching nationwide transitions into actual votes in November.

Otherwise, burning calories would have been the only real result.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. You realize the occupy movement

Is a social justice movement, not a political movement....right?

No you don't.

(Yes, there is a difference)

[4lbs]

56. Yes I do. However, to get things done requires politics, like it or not.

The Teabaggers are 1/10th (or less) the number of people as Occupy, yet they have more national power because they translated their protests and yelling and screaming into votes and candidates. Many votes and a sizable number of people in Congress.

Occupy needs to do the same.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Unfortunately I am reporting

As in the real thing, I am the absolute last person you want to make that argument to. You need to go to a General Assemby and do so. If in my town, I'll even go watch.

That said, a good number of occupiers are tired of what you call politics since it is ineffective.

So we get back to thm being a social justice movement, not a political movement.

The TP is not just a political "movement" but a creature of Karl Rove and the Koch brothers.

[sabrina 1]

77. And there are occupiers who are running for office. If you want to see them succeed

then donate and campaign for them. And there are elected officials who are members of Occupy. This is a movement which leaves no excuses for people to just sit by and criticize. The way it is constructed makes it very easy for people to stop criticizing and get involved.

In fact that why the movement started. Rather than sit around saying 'why doesn't someone do this or that' they went out and did it themselves. They are saving people's homes from foreclosure, eg. How many elected officials have saved even one home from an illegal foreclosure?

When you are busy doing something, you don't have the time anymore to ask why something isn't being done.

[Sirveri]

83. They have national power because they represent the corporate interests.

Tea baggers would have gone nowhere fast if they didn't have the support of Faux News and the Koch Bros.

[Warren Stupidity]

102. The official political system is broken and no amount of gotv is going to fix it.

The social justice movement has to work outside of and parallel to the de jure political process. We can vote and we can protest. These are not exclusive choices

[4th law of robotics]

106. (Yes, there is a difference)

Yeah, one can actually effect change.

Social justice movements only matter when they translate to real political change.

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Which if you bother reading the thread

You will notice they already are.

[4th law of robotics]

112. Er, no. They aren't

They switched to "we're a social justice movement rather than political" after it was pointed out that they haven't really accomplished anything.

It's like claiming you *wanted* to strike out after losing the big game . . . because.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. So let me get this straight

Bringing the attention of multiple city councils and having the NRC take a second and third look at San Onofre, which the utility hates by the way, a non accomplishment?

And by the way, free huge solar system, maybe universe sized boulder clue, those of us watching from like day seven, KNEW they were a social justice movement.

It is those who wanted a left version of the TP that are still pissed.

Oh and getting a home owners bill of rights to the governor is also a non-accomplishment?

If you say so. Their work is more than the corporate media tells you.

(And those are two examples of non accomplishments)

[4th law of robotics]

115. Yeah pretty much

if your only accomplishments are that you got other people to notice you and talk about you then you haven't really done anything.

The Westboro Baptist church gets people talking. But they are hardly major players in the political process.

The AARP, NRA, NAACP, ACLU, NOW, UAW, Citizens United, etc. These groups have clout. Good or bad they get stuff done by either mobilizing money, voters, or using the law (or some combination).

A politician will listen if one of those groups gets pissed off about something.

The OWS? Meh. Go camp out in the park.

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. Huge universe sized clue

That bill of rights started with Occupy.

You know what your problem is, you're expecting the Corporate media to tell you this, nother universe boulder sized clue, when pigs fly and hell freezes over.

As to other people talking about them...you know OCCUPY Encinitas, yes OCCUPY, is in front of city councils and NRC doing the POLITICAL WORK needed...the GRUNT work needed.

I could go on, but since they're not YOUR APROVED VERSION of the tea party left they're insignificant.

By the way, not that the CORPORATE media would tell you, about three fourths of the at least San Diego democratic party delegation at the DEMOCRATIC convention were also occupy members. You know, not all wore T-Shirts, but I happen to know them, so I knew, and REPORTED on that little factoid here back in JANUARY.

So tell me, what have you done recently to change the world and make it a better place?

[zappaman]

123. WOW!

Can you see the ground?
Cuz that's a pretty high horse you are on!
Still waiting that "spring surprise" you promised us, but wouldn't tell us what it was...

[4th law of robotics]

128. Ah ok so we're going by your assessment because nothing The Man says is true

gotcha.

I thought we were having a serious discussion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. I am, here are contacts for you

Lets start with Encinitas.

http://ci.encinitas.ca.us/index.aspx?page=98

Vista

[phone]

Oceanside

http://www.ci.oceanside.ca.us/

Or quite frankly the North County Times

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/sdcounty/article_4d2bf888-da34-54f9-afcf-b7b299a1f358.html

You might even find some in the Old Lady, aka the NYT

Those activists are OCCUPY ENCINITAS, leading the way, with allied groups

[4th law of robotics]

133. Ok, I'm game. OWS got the mighty empire-city of Encintas to . .

have a city council meeting?

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. Your claim, shut down,

Was that their irrelevant, and doing nothing.

I gave you a very specific example.

Not the city of Encinitas, the NATIONAL REGULATORY COMMISION is listening to a bunch of non relevant, latte drinking, birkenstock wearing, hippies.

The point I am trying to make to you is simple, the big corporate media is mostly not covering what they're doing. Try local press, for multiple cities.

Hell, channel eight CBS, had a camera guy yesterday, care to tell me why none was on the air last night? This is what we call a pattern.

Oh and by the way, political change, something the right figured two generations ago, is not happening at the national level, rubber meets the road at city councils and boards of education, and development boards..

[4th law of robotics]

144. Perhaps you could point to the specific part of your link you want me to look at

all I saw was an announcement for a city meeting in a small town.

Something that happened prior to OWS if you can believe it.

My claim, shut down? Ha!

If being allowed to speak at a city hall meeting in a tiny town is the OWS' claim to fame then yeah, I think that pretty much proves my point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. I told you to go CALL the city

if you do not believe me, gave you LINKS to other cities, and also told you WHAT LOCAL PAPER IS COVERING THIS SHIT as in REGULARLY, and the NEW YORK TIMES does from time to time, with the LA TIMES as well, it's not like you are without the vaunted corporate press here.

At this point horses, and water come to mind... I can bring you it, but if you refuse to drink from it, quite frankly it is NOT BY FRACKING PROBLEM!

And it is NOT OWS TALKING TO A TINY CITY COUNCIL, or two or three or twenty... but you do not want to get it, or will.

You know why the right is fracking wining? You think politics is only national. Got news for ya... those little town city council members, move on to state legislatures and then to Congress. They do get their start in city councils and boards of education and boards, multiple boards.

You did know that, RIGHT? I suspect you did not.

You claim they are doing nothing, you are shown evidence to the contrary, and you shit on it. I got a question, when did the mightly 4rth Law of Robotics, bother with something more direct than shitting ONLINE on those who are actually involved in the political front lines? By the way that is what social justice movements do, work both inside and outside the system.

By the way, Occupy was FUNDAMENTAL in the bill that went to the GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA on homeowners bill of rights.

They have been ESSENTIAL in registering voters in this city.

They have been at DEMOCRATIC CONVENTIONS, both inside, and outside.

They have talked to congres people and demonstrated at their offices too.

Fed the hungry.

Gathered clothes for those who don't have it.

Organized medical care for those who do not have it.

Rallied to get student loans more affordable. (Yes, in case you wonder that is a MAJOR ISSUE and they ARE IN THE FRACKING FRONT LINES.)

Taken care of veterans.

The list is long.

So what are you doing apart of shitting on it, behind the safety of your computer?

You were given a very specific example, where they are even having a FEDERAL agency taking a second and third look at what a local utility, just with a nuclear reactor, nothing major, is doing. And you shit on that.

So at this point, what exactly are you doing? I am all but impressed by the way. Big talk there.

So you will continue to shit. I am sure if you were around during the Civil Rights era, you would have been just as loud. Oh free clue, among many... they did not start by working inside the system, and even AFTER the civil rights act, they continued to work in parallel tracks, just like well, OWS.

[4th law of robotics]

159. "You know why the right is fracking wining"

I thought OWS was winning. You're confusing your own mantra.

I think we're about done here. I have repeatedly asked for concrete accomplishments attributable to the OWS.

So far I've gotten conspiracy theories and ad hominems and gibberish claims not substantiated by anything.


I think we can call it. The OWS is dead at 3:55 central time, July 8th, year of our lord 2012.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. I gave you concrete accomplishments

And yes, nationally the right is winning. Democrats understood this at one time. Child you know who Tip O'Neil was? If you ever heard "all politics is local," he coined that one.

OWS has won some local battles already, and even a state wide one.

And I see you have NO SUBSTANTIAL ANSWER AS TO WHAT YOU, 4TH LAW OF ROBOTICS, IS DOING. You know why? You have done nothing. That's why. So you shit stirr those who do.

I gave you not one, TWO specific examples. Two that you can even follow in the vaunted and powerful corporate press. I guess the NYT is pushing the conspiracy theory that San Onofre's reactors remain shut down. That's a conspiracy theory? Mossey over to So Cal Edisson and ask.

Here a little of that conspiracy theory from the old gray lady herself.

SAN ONOFRE STATE BEACH, Calif. — More than seven million people live within 50 miles of the San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station, which is about halfway between Los Angeles and San Diego. But for decades, residents here largely accepted, if not exactly embraced, the hulking nuclear plant perched on the cliffs above this popular surfing beach as a necessary part of keeping the lights on in a state that uses more electricity than all of Argentina.

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“I don’t think about it too much,” said David Vichules, 55, who has been surfing here since before the plant opened in 1968. “I guess it’s risk and benefit.”

All that changed, however, after the Fukushima Daiichi meltdown in Japan last year, followed in January by a small leak of radioactive steam here caused by the deterioration of steam tubes that had been damaged by vibration and friction. The twin generators at the San Onofre plant have been off-line for five months, and the plant has subsequently become a point of contention in the fight over nuclear power in the United States.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/05/us/san-onofre-could-hint-at-a-non-nuclear-future.html

Oh and look-e here, from the SAN ONOFRE PLANT

Status

Plant Status - Sunday, July 8, 2012

Unit 2 Currently offline for planned outage.
Unit 3 Currently offline.

http://www.songscommunity.com/

Yup, that's a mighty big conspiracy theory right there. The folks working the special effects are GOOD! Is global weather change also a conspiracy pushed by the well known conspiracy sites such as the New York Times?

Phew, good to know.

[4th law of robotics]

167. That's it?

The OWS caused a nuclear plant to shut down (after Fukushima and the popular outrage that caused completely independent of OWS).

Even if they were 100% behind that. . . so farking what? They didn't set out to end nuclear power. This has nothing to do with their root cause. Not that they caused it, but just for the sake of argument.

So to recap: a year in and the OWS is responsible for . . . drumroll please. . . being tangentially related to a nuclear power plant closing following fukushima.

Yep. I can see now why the powers that be are terrified of this powerful new movement.

[nadinbrzezinski]

169. Child, you are really shitting on what you do not know

Another one child

Two central provisions of the California Homeowner Bill of Rights passed the California State Legislature Monday.

The bills will travel to Gov. Jerry Brown’s desk, where other provisions of the bill also await approval. Brown has not indicated whether he will sign or veto the legislation.

The Assembly, by a vote of 53 to 25, and Senate, 24 to 13, approved the Foreclosure Reduction Act, which restricts the process of dual-tracked foreclosures and the Due Process Rights Act, which guarantees a single point of contact for struggling homeowners to discuss their loan. The latter also imposes civil penalties on the practice of fraudulently signing foreclosure documents without verifying their accuracy.

The Foreclosure Reduction Act bars lenders from filing notices of default, notices of sale, or conducting trustees’ sales while also considering alternatives to foreclosures like loan modifications or short sales.

http://www.housingwire.com/news/california-homeowner-bill-rights-sent-governor-sign-or-veto

Again, CONCRETE EXAMPLE.

Special effects are good. So what have YOU DONE? Oh wait, NOTHING. NOT MORE THAN SHIT STIR...

You Sir, are a shit stirrer, that is all you are.

[pintobean]

177. Jeeze. That "child" shit is so

over the top, and the "shit stirrer" comment for disagreeing with you just says that you've lost it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

179. Third concrete example

California has joined others in demanding a constitutional Ammendment to deal with Citizens United. Yup, Occupy was part of that coalition.

I keep coming up with them. Again what has 4th law done?

[4th law of robotics]

180. Child Please!

Sorry, that's all I'm hearing when you do that nonsense.

/also listing stuff that has happened is not the same thing as attributing it to the OWS. The Arab spring happened while OWS was in existence. But I'd hesitate to give them credit for it (child please!). Number of times the occupy movement was referenced in that article: 0. So child I just have one thing to say . . . please!

[nadinbrzezinski]

183. What you are hearing goes against your core belief

Therefore you are ignoring it. We are up to three concrete examples. I have yet to hear, well read, what you have done beyond shit stirring.

[4th law of robotics]

188. Ahahahahahah

child please!

What, pray tell, are my core beliefs?

[nadinbrzezinski]

193. You are right, we are done

[4th law of robotics]

210. I know

I've been right all along.

That is my default state of being.

[nadinbrzezinski]

212. Nope, you are wrong

but can't admit it.

Don't matter how much evidence you are shown.

Are you perchance a centrist? It would explain why, to a T. Third way perhaps?

[4th law of robotics]

213. Child please!

[nadinbrzezinski]

214. Yup, you are

[DocMac]

276. + 1,000,000,000

[zappaman]

171. You don't have to be so insulting.

You might be taken a tad more seriously if you left the condescension out of your manner.

[4th law of robotics]

255. Actually he does

that's all he has.

When the facts have deserted your cause what do you have left?

[zappaman]

258. For future reference, "he" is a she.

And this is her standard M.O.

[4th law of robotics]

259. My mistake

thanks for the correction.

[LanternWaste]

296. I suppose you're left with simply minimizing the actions of a group

"what do you have left?.."

I suppose you're left with simply minimizing the actions of a group, or denying any specific actions they've accomplished...

[4th law of robotics]

300. I don't have to minimize anything

It's plain to see.

When the only people saying an organization is a success are those in that organization, citing their own internal news source as evidence. . . well do I even need to explain why that's a problem?

[Magoo48]

216. The groups that you highlight have all, at some point, made a decision to join the establishment.

If the the thousands of groups and organizations that now infest every level of the body politic could help us at this point, there would no need for a powerful movement that chooses to perform its function outside an establishment that it sees as corrupt.

We create our own bondage by clinging to the status quo.
Our old ideas and politics as usual will continue to stifle us if we don't implement some outside the establishment thinking.

[Fire Walk With Me]

57. Occupy came about through a need for direct action to make up for where the existing system has

failed us all.

Marching is the "visible" side, a call to join against the problems affecting us all. Search "LIBOR" for the most recent example and the possible revelation of a horrifically destructive downward trend.

Because banks and wall street and similar have stolen trillions upon trillions of dollars and not a single politician is saying anything whatsoever about getting it back. Instead, they're socializing the loss into infrastructure cuts in teaching, social services, medicine, etc.

This will not do. "There is something terribly wrong with this country."

[4lbs]

60. And that's why Occupy needs to get the attention of the politicians.

Do that through votes, and vote out those that won't listen, and put in those that will.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Some occupiers run for office,

Some attend political conventions, some even register voters, some do not.

Becoming the left arm of the democratic party never made it out of any general assembly I know off.

[Fire Walk With Me]

69. Or to create a world not requiring "leaders" or "politicians"

and the systems which corrupt them.

In demanding leaders, expect to be led. Some of us are through with being led. The people are the power in this country, in this world, period. Take it all back.

[Fire Walk With Me]

87. With over 7,000 Occupiers arrested over 9 months, many by democratic mayors, it is obvious

Occupy has the attention of politicians of all kinds. None of them are saying "Hooray! OWS!" But 18 mayors did a conference call on what to do about OWS...and violent, brutal camp clearings ensued.

They know we're here. They're all afraid of us because they don't want anything to change. HR347 was passed, which makes it a Federal crime to protest where the Secret Service are active and similar. Note the trend?

We've demanded politicians be directly and completely responsible to the people of this country. They have taken steps to brutalize us. Now the FBI are using their classic "find the fringers and entrap them into terrorism" antics to attempt to further demonize the movement. They're aware, and are afraid.

[Fire Walk With Me]

95. Some of them even read these forums. Them, or their tools.

[woo me with science]

105. Indeed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002850016

[Fire Walk With Me]

137. :)

[hay rick]

55. K&R

[Proles]

58. Well, I for one feel the Occupy Movement could have been greater.

It should have embraced the unions much more, and more openly embraced Democratic candidates.

Instead, it seemed to turn into a movement which wishes to transcend the political process. While noble, not very helpful, when we have hard-core conservatives exploiting the political system to their advantage everyday.

I do believe its biggest accomplishment was to make the enter the idea of income inequality into mainstream vocabulary. People are now more skeptical of our capitalist system than they were before, so for that I do believe Occupy has proven beneficial... I just think it could have been more.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. That is why the Central Labor Council

In San Diego has events with them regularly?

There was even union reps today.

Oh wait, the port shutdown was done for LABOR.

As to embracing pols, they are not a political movement, but a social justice movement.

[sabrina 1]

66. 'Could have been'? The movement is only in its infancy and has accomplished far more

in just a few months, that most movements of its kind did in this early stage of its development. It is growing each and every day. Each time they keep a family in their home, save them from an illegal foreclosure, the movement grows. Each time they win a court case, as they have been doing, the movement grows and expands to the next phase.

Let me ask you, when the Civil Rights Movement began and was only months old, as is OWS at this point, what had they accomplished?

[Fire Walk With Me]

74. Occupy just helped get a homeowner's bill of rights onto CA gov Jerry Brown's desk.

Last edited Sun Jul 8, 2012, 03:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Ever heard of this particular Occupation? Yet look at its busy schedule.

http://www.occupykingston.ca/gardens/2011/11/15/how-to-occupy-your-vegetable-garden/

[TheKentuckian]

139. Here is the meat of the rub, you think that embracing Democrats is in any substantive way

advancing correction of the set of systemic problems we face when Democrats are an active part of the problems.

Occupy is the beginning of an opposition to the system, not an arm of it.

Voting for Democrats is not a solution but rather a holding action in hopes of situations degrading less quickly than under the TeaPubliKlans buying a little time for people to wake up, go through their grief stages for the illusion of self determination and of living in a system that protects them and their interests, and starting to fill in the massive hole created by the wealthiest and their minions.

The problems are bigger, run deeper, and maybe of a very different nature than you are willing to admit.

[Proles]

262. I'll take the word of people who posted above me that occupy

is doing good things. I don't deny that, and I guess I was wrong to say that they don't embrace unions. I guess I just think the time for occupying the streets wearing bandanas and crudely made signs needs to make way for more action.

While they do seem to be making action, I still think part of that action should be more actively shoving for Democratic candidates.

There's no doubt the system is broken, to an extent. But it's one thing to say it's broken, and another to say how to fix it. If you're not going to fix the system through actively using the political structure we have, then how?

I for one think the best way would be to support Democrats, not just for its sake, but to drag the party left. Drag the party as far left as you can, just as the tea partiers did by pulling the repub's right, and you're in a position to better change the dynamics of our political structure.

It just bothers me when I see occupiers, who are otherwise dead-on about what our society should become, say, "oh, those democrats are just the same as republicans. They're part of the problem!" I'm not going to deny that many Dem's are a problem, but to say they are the same as republicans is outright nonsense... in fact, I'd go as far as to say it's a right-wing talking point to demoralize people on the left from even participating in the already established political system.

Occupy should do the things they are doing... work with unions, help people with housing foreclosures, inform people about corporate greed, etc, etc, but part of the agenda should be supporting Dem's, but pulling them hard left... in my humble opinion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

278. Just in my county

Three occupiers ran for congress...

It is happening...

[TheKentuckian]

313. How is supporting Democrats going to pull them to the left, when Democrats strategy is

to hold the left by fear of the right and then pursuing the soft right leaning voters?

The Tea party isn't a model because the dynamic is very, very different because the TeaPubliKlans are looking for any excuse to move right and hold the soft Democratic leaner's by fear of a fantasy left and attract the political will-o-the wind types with propaganda and misinformation.

There are no Democratic operatives, high level political leaders, and big money types trying to re-brand and increase the ideological zealotry of the party.
It is also impossible to miss that the push the TeaPubliKlans made to the right has wealthy folk that would benefit significantly but there are no profit centers that will benefit from (and so finance and use clout to forward) a push to the left.
There will be no former speakers armed with millions and a propaganda network to support Occupy or any other 99% oriented movement.

The parties are different, even in some very important aspects, but both are integrally connected to our systemic problems, bad trade policy, and the transfer of wealth to the top and there isn't enough room to address the issues, demand correction (particularly when correction means revolutionary or evolutionary change overthrowing or superseding establishment institutions), and embrace an existing party as a movement. The TeaPubliKlans would be more absurd by a good mile but that doesn't make it logically follow. Less bad and actually in any way constructive are not interchangeable concepts.

[Taverner]

65. Still going strong in Oakland...

Of course, like Adbusters has stated, it has to change - and it is

Consider playing Killcap

Consider Laughriot

[Fire Walk With Me]

70. Link to FB photo of Occupier being arrested today.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=336154886467739&set=a.130497093700187.34064.130010620415501&type=1&theater

Reports are of seven Occupiers detained for warrant searches.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. I suspect where

And even the reason why.

[Fire Walk With Me]

75. Any and all who wish Occupy would do more should find their local Occupation and get busy with it.

[Joe the Revelator]

80. An amazing 20 people marching around with no focus..

Long live OWS....pffft

[zappaman]

82. I dunno Joe, looks like at least maybe 2 dozen.

I'm sure quite a bit was accomplished.
This whole new "it's a social movement, not a political movement" meme seems have been put into place when it was pointed out that politically OWS has done absolutely nothing.
Nada.
When my right-wing dad stops calling OWS "a bunch of whiny, lazy, freeloaders looking for handouts", then I will know OWS has actually permeated the "regular folks".
Unfortunately, preaching to the converted will not bring about change.
The Tea Party is experiencing the same thing, but at least they got some politicians who, unfortunately for us Democrats, got elected and have a shot at changing things.
By the way, whatever happened to the big "surprise" we were promised was coming in the Spring???

[4th law of robotics]

109. You get things done in this country in one of two ways

organize lots of money behind one issue or lots of voters (or ideally both).

The OWS has organized no money and has made no attempts to organize voters.

Since they have absolutely no workable means (even by a long shot) to achieve their various stated goals they are just having fun at this point.

Pity. Because they have at their core a very good idea. However by dicking around and associating various idiotic actions with that core idea they're actually making it harder for serious people to address those issues.

[pintobean]

101. Scores, according to this article.

Scores of protestors marched to a downtown hotel Saturday, and one was arrested, during a demonstration against a multination economic conference being held in San Diego.

San Diego police responded about 1:30 p.m. to reports that some protestors were spraying graffiti on buildings, windows and parking meters in the Gaslamp Quarter. One protestor was arrested for an outstanding warrant, police Lt. Jerry Hara said.

Hara said extra officers would be patrolling the downtown area through the evening to try to prevent any further vandalism.

Some of the protestors were from various Occupy movements around Southern California and even Seattle, said Linda Swartz of the city of Orange. She said they were concerned that economic agreements, including rules for genetically modified foods and natural gas drilling, are being negotiated behind closed doors.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/jul/07/police-respond-to-protesting-taggers/

Another article said around 200.
Still not many for a Saturday gathering of west coast occupiers. It looks like they're still willing to let a few vandals define them.

[4th law of robotics]

107. Ah but you're talking about it

which means they've already won!

[sabrina 1]

119. Why are people so afraid of a movement that has spread so quickly across the world

and accomplished more FOR REAL PEOPLE in just a few months than Congress has in years? Can you explain the antagonism, because it's going to be around for years as it grows and expands, as it is doing? We in the US were a little late joining this Global Movement, but better late than never.

If these few people are this upset now, they will be very upset in the future as it is now only in its infancy.

I'm curious, are people who've been declaring OWS dead since last September, worried about the poor, corrupt Banksters who collapsed the Global Economy? Do they feel that nothing should threaten the corrupt Wall Street Bankers?

I can't think of any other reason why anyone would be so upset by Occupy Wall Street.

[Joe the Revelator]

125. You point to 'accomplishments OWS has made for real people'...

What are they?

[sabrina 1]

126. I asked you some questions, which you have not answered.

Could you respond to my questions? OWS's accomplishments are easy to list, I have done so many times, but I would first like to know why you oppose a movement that is now Global and rose up in opposition to the corruption on Wall Street which collapsed the Global Economy and the inequality of wealth distribution in this country which is destroying the Working Class? I am genuinely interested in why anyone on the 'left' would oppose a Social Justice Movement, currently only in its infancy, but definitely growing, as did the Civil Rights movement.

The fact that you admit to not knowing what OWS has accomplished, simply confirms your opposition to its existence which is why I am asking for your reasons. I know why the Right hates it, but I am genuinely puzzled by anyone on the Left opposing a movement like this.

[Joe the Revelator]

131. Because the 'movement' is unfocused and silly..

Instead f working towards real gold, or accomplishing anything, the rely on confrontation with police. Look at the photos posted in the op.....those are photos accomplishing nothing.

OWS was filled with summer soldiers who couldn't weather the winter and lost their credibility. When is the springtime surprise???

[sabrina 1]

136. Unfocused? Not according to Wall Street Bankers or Republicans.

So you really know nothing about it, or you have absorbed the propaganda, and I hate to have to point this out, but your comment reflects Fox News' take on OWS, without bothering to learn anything about it yourself.

Where do you get your information btw?

OWS was so 'unfocused' that it attracted the attention, especially its message, of top Politicians. The first time in years that 'the people' actually got the attention of their elected officials.

Eg, NY State Attorney Schneiderman credits OWS with helping him stop the egregious agreement he was being pressured to sign which would have let the corrupt banks off the hook for their criminal involvement in the mortgage scam.

I think I'll take Schneiderman's assessment of the focus of OWS over Faux's any day.

Had it not been for them, the big banks would be off the hook for crimes committed against the people, which are now being investigated. Also, Schneiderman's stand against the pressure, with the help of OWS, to make a deal that would have prevented consumers from being able to sue these thugs, would not have been possible, according to him, without OWS.

Just one example of how their focus made a huge difference in just a few months, a difference Congress was not about to even try.

[4th law of robotics]

130. Apparently they have achieved two things:

1) to get you talking
2) a bunch of secret stuff that they were able to accomplish by the Corporate media won't tell you.

That's what I've gleaned from this thread.

So talk and conspiracies.

[sabrina 1]

143. Where do you get your information on OWS?

You seem very uninformed, for a Democrat, regarding this movement. I am always curious when I see people on democratic boards, on the right it's easily explained as they are Fox Cultists, repeating talking points from the right, rather than facts many of which were made available here from the beginning of this movement.

So, could you supply your sources, or is it that you know nothing at all about this now Global Movement? We'll be happy to help you out if you know nothing, refuting right wing talking points is easy too, and they do seem to be filtering into democratic boards for some reason.

Sometimes people read sources that are right wing but they are not aware that is the case. So give us an idea of where you are getting your info, and we can help you sort out legitimate sources from the rest.

[4th law of robotics]

145. The . . . news . . .

CNN, NPR, here, whatever's on the radio.

Could you provide evidence of the concrete and fundamental changes the OWS has made to our political and economic system, since you are so well informed.

[notundecided]

304. The Bush Tax Cuts

for the wealthy will not be renewed. That is fundamental.

[4th law of robotics]

306. Alright at this point yall are just saying stuff

OWS had nothing to do with this. To give them credit makes as much sense as crediting them with shutting down fukushima.

[pinboy3niner]

281. BS

The acomplishments of the Occupy movement have been posted here many times. If you have any questions, teh Google may be of help.

There are some BIG things, but one of the things that I think is significant is all the home foreclosures that Occupy has stopped. That kind of action, and its results, are so immediate--especially for the families affected--that I can't help being amazed that there are some assholes who will claim that Occupy "hasn't done anything," or that "Occupy is dead."

If Occupy had saved just one home from foreclosure, I'd count that a success. But there have been MANY homes saved, and many more results in many ways.

There's a quote from someplace, "There are none so blind as he who will not see." Some are willfully blind, making multiple posts in threads to denigrate the Occupy movement. Some pose 'questions,' ignoring all of the answers that have been supplied to them before in previous threads.

Bah! The only reason we don't have more Occupy supporters posting here is that we are fucking tired of this shit. DUers support the Occupy movement overwhelmingly, and we are fucking tired of being asked to answer the same questions over and over again.

I'd suggest that any anti-Occupy mutherfucker who has questions quit shitstirring here and use the fucking Google.

[nadinbrzezinski]

287. I'm 'fraid we will need to teach

The use of Boolean searches first.

[pinboy3niner]

289. :)

My post could easily end up being hidden. After all, I did go over the top a bit--but I thought it needed to be said. And I gambled that our jurors are also fed up with this anti-Occupy shit.

Don't let the batards get you down, Nadin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

291. Tasty, and the house smells of fresh bread

Just got it out of the oven!

[4th law of robotics]

299. Lashing out,

making outlandish claims with no sources, lashing out some more, demanding any opposition cease, intentionally misrepresenting counter-arguments, and so on.

These are not the tactics of one who is confident in their position.

[4th law of robotics]

309. No . . . no . . . no

No real accomplishments have been posted.

Some have claimed vague notions (they got people feeling powerful!). Others have falsely attributed things to them that occurred but were unrelated (like the local closing of a nuclear power plant).

But nothing real.

[4th law of robotics]

129. A) people aren't afraid of it

B) it hasn't accomplished much.
C) saying that the OWS has failed and is irrelevant now does not equate to supporting bankers and wallstreet.

[sabrina 1]

146. Lol, no, Bloomberg et all are 'not afraid of' OWS!

Omg, Even they do not pretend to not be afraid of this grass roots and very successful movement.

That's why he sent out his Goldman Sachs funded 'private army', forgive us for thinking the NYPD worked for the people, btw, to brutally crack down, unsuccessfully, on these peaceful protesters that Wall Street's mayor is 'not afraid of'! Hilarious!

Again, what are your sources for your 'information'? Btw, did you know that OWS has its own news media, transparent, fact-filled, actual NEWS and it is spreading across the country? Thanks for reminding me, btw, I need to make another donation today.

A free press, taking the place of our corporate owned media. Another amazing accomplishment by a movement that is not yet one year old.

[4th law of robotics]

147. I'm sure they're terrified

just tell yourself that. Think of all the political dynasties OWS has taken down. All the corrupt politicians and lobbyists they've sent to jail. All the change . . . sorry I can no longer do this with a straight face.

Yeah, people in charge are terrified that thanks to OWS . . . nothing will happen to them. They are still in charge. Still receiving kickbacks. The status quo is unchanged.

A lot of people on the fringe confuse "ignored" with "feared".

Btw, did you know that OWS has its own news media, transparent, fact-filled, actual NEWS and it is spreading across the country? Thanks for reminding me, btw, I need to make another donation today.

Ah so you mock me on not being informed then admit that your only source of news on this is self-reported.

Let me ask you a general question: are internal memos within an organization about how great they are the end all be all source of information on that organization? For instance: if the NRA had an newsletter (actually I think they do) would you take that as the sole word of truth on what the NRA is about and up to? Or would you look for other sources that aren't so intimately linked to the subject being discussed?

[sabrina 1]

150. Again, what are your sources?

Why so reluctant to reveal them?

And no, I said no such thing as I get my news from inside sources. I merely pointed out that OWS has its own media, and has had from the beginning.

Let me ask you this, since that media recorded live every arrest made by the NYPD and since that footage was used in several court cases over the past few weeks, and since that coverage clearly showed that false arrests were made, and that cops committed perjury on the stand, resulting in the dismissal of every case where that coverage was used, do you have a problem with actual, factual news reporting? The NYC Courts did not obviously.

So you think that a movement, still in its infancy, should be able to do what our Government has failed to do for decades, in a matter of months? Did OWS ever say that was their goal? Um NO, they did not. You are the only one setting this goal for a movement you have demonstrated you know nothing at all about.

The fact is that OWS has more than accomplished its goals, way, way more. Eg, they were not planning on more than one month of occupation at the most. They did not expect to spread beyond NYC. Instead nine months later they are still growing and still spreading across the country! for them!

They would have liked, but did not imagine, that their framing of the their most important issue would become so much a part of the culture in less than a month that it is now used and understood by more than 80% of the population, not to mention the rest of the world. But it has! So another goal accomplished.

Their strategy was brilliant, and YES, Wall Street is terrified of this movement. Are you aware, well, I guess not, that there are several elected officials, several former Wall Street employees, who are now members of OWS and Wall St. insiders have confirmed their fears of a movement like this.

The Corporate Media, especially the right wing side of it, is not considered credible on any subject that relates to the people. Your comments are ample proof of this, although you can't be blamed for not knowing that if the MSM has been your only source of 'news'. I am glad you are here, we all once relied on the MSM also so don't feel bad.

[4th law of robotics]

158. I've dealt with people like you before

"where are your sources".

This is immediately followed by "all those sources are lies".

Let me ask you this, since that media recorded live every arrest made by the NYPD and since that footage was used in several court cases over the past few weeks, and since that coverage clearly showed that false arrests were made, and that cops committed perjury on the stand, resulting in the dismissal of every case where that coverage was used, do you have a problem with actual, factual news reporting? The NYC Courts did not obviously.

In no way does this constitute a rational thought.

So you think that a movement, still in its infancy, should be able to do what our Government has failed to do for decades, in a matter of months? Did OWS ever say that was their goal? Um NO, they did not. You are the only one setting this goal for a movement you have demonstrated you know nothing at all about.

Coming up on a year. And what is their goal?

The fact is that OWS has more than accomplished its goals, way, way more. Eg, they were not planning on more than one month of occupation at the most. They did not expect to spread beyond NYC. Instead nine months later they are still growing and still spreading across the country! for them!

So they haven't accomplished anything because they're so young in one paragraph. In the next they have accomplished most of their goals. Do you even read what you write before hitting post?

List here what concrete goals they have achieved. Don't fall back on attacking me personally as you have so far. List, numerically or alphabetically, concrete goals that are directly attributable to the OWS that they have achieved.

[sabrina 1]

162. Still avoiding the question I see.

Here, let's try this again since you seem to keep missing the answers to your questions:

You claimed that using OWS's own media coverage for facts, was not acceptable. I demonstrated here why you are wrong:

Let me ask you this, since that media recorded live every arrest made by the NYPD and since that footage was used in several court cases over the past few weeks, and since that coverage clearly showed that false arrests were made, and that cops committed perjury on the stand, resulting in the dismissal of every case where that coverage was used, do you have a problem with actual, factual news reporting? The NYC Courts did not obviously.

It was not the MSM's coverage that was used in over 22 court cases so far, it was the footage from OWS's own coverage, something that was part of their original organization, knowing what the MSM would do with a movement like this.

Then I asked you if you objected to actual, factual coverage to which you did not respond.

So, I ask again, do you object to journalists filming events and making their coverage available to the people? Since every court in which OWS's own coverage was used as evidence has accepted it, it would appear that their coverage is credible.

Again, what is your objection to this kind of factual journalism?

And what are 'people like you'? As far as I know I am a regular person. Are you saying I am not, and if not, what 'kind' of person am I in your opinion?

[4th law of robotics]

163. And we're done

I generally give people three shots of ignoring the obvious before I say enough.

You've been given three shots to state what the OWS has accomplished.

You have chosen to refuse to answer three times.

You really ought to think about that. Why, if the OWS has done all these wonderful things, are you incapable of coming up with a single one when pressured to do so on three separate occasions?

/I know you won't think about it. But others following this conversation might.

[sabrina 1]

173. No surprise that you are 'done'. I have written extensively, right here on this

site, about the successes and the history of OWS since the very first day, see my journal. Not to mention in probably hundreds of comments over the past several months. A fact which I already stated and which you ignored. I had no intention of re-writing months of already written material to help you distract from my main questions, which was certainly legitimate given your own obvious lack of knowledge on the subject.

Nor am I the only DUer who has done so, so my question remains, how could someone who has been here on DU, have missed all that material? Were they ignoring it, or turning to other sources? Why you cannot answer that simple question, why you missed all the material that was right here on DU, is a mystery to me.

You have gone through this thread making statements, that you have failed to back up with any credible links.

You have ignored the few examples I have given you, which was more than enough to answer your questions, ie, the Courts' acceptance of OWS's media coverage of the movement and the NY US Attorney's confirmation of OWS's role in a most important decision he was under pressure to make that has affected millions of Americans.

You chose to ignore those two examples, and I can only think it is because you do not want answers. You are falsely accusing me therefore of not providing any example of their successes.

I have no problem discussing this, you have, so as you say, you are done. I am not, and will continue to report on the future and present successes of this movement whenever time allows me to do so. Meantime, I follow their successes on a daily basis and could not be more impressed with the American people, late to join the Global Movement, but making up for that each and every day as they save people from illegal foreclosures, among many other daily activities they are engaged in.

This movement was inspired by Spain's Indignados, now evolving from its occupy days to forcing the prosecution of crooked bankers and politicians. They in turn, were inspired by other historical movements.

Any time you want to comment on the answers you actually did get from me, feel free. But do not distort what was said. You were given examples which you chose to ignore. And that is also a fact.

[4th law of robotics]

148. Look, I get that you want to believe this is working

I really do.

But try to be objective.

What has the OWS actually accomplished?

/here's where you throw in a non-sequitor about *my* news sources, claim the OWS is terrifying, and in no way describe anything concrete they've done to fix the problems they are criticizing.

[sabrina 1]

152. Look, I get that you oppose this movement for some reason.

I have asked for your sources, since you know so little about it, but for some reason you refuse to reveal them, which is fine. All I'm trying to do is find out why you oppose a movement that is working for the people against Corrupt Wall Street practices and influences on our government?

As a Democrat, this seems odd to me. You say 'it has accomplished nothing', yet it is of such concern to you that you are here doing what Bloomberg and his NYPD 'private army' are trying to do, discredit it.

Why? If you think it is not working then join it, and help make it work. The way this movement was so brilliantly constructed it leaves no room for people who simply sit around criticizing, it makes it possible for everyone to get involved and fix what they think is wrong about it.

So, why have you not done something to make it a success? Seems to me because you oppose this Social Justice movement for reasons beyond my comprehension. And I really am trying to understand. You have contributed nothing to this discussion other than 'I hate it' but with no rational or informed reasons for your disdain.

[4th law of robotics]

157. Straw-man alert

I have pointed out several times now that I support their general principles.

have asked for your sources, since you know so little about it, but for some reason you refuse to reveal them, which is fine.

I've stated them. Are you unaware that all our comments stay up for everyone to see?

All I'm trying to do is find out why you oppose a movement that is working for the people against Corrupt Wall Street practices and influences on our government?

Strawman bordering on outright lie.

As a Democrat, this seems odd to me. You say 'it has accomplished nothing', yet it is of such concern to you that you are here doing what Bloomberg and his NYPD 'private army' are trying to do, discredit it.

No, I'm simply stating facts. They discredited themselves.

Why? If you think it is not working then join it, and help make it work. The way this movement was so brilliantly constructed it leaves no room for people who simply sit around criticizing, it makes it possible for everyone to get involved and fix what they think is wrong about it.

If you think this organization is a failure why don't you join it?

That makes zero sense.

So, why have you not done something to make it a success? Seems to me because you oppose this Social Justice movement for reasons beyond my comprehension. And I really am trying to understand. You have contributed nothing to this discussion other than 'I hate it' but with no rational or informed reasons for your disdain.

Wait, so you're arguing simultaneously that it is a massive success but it's my fault for not joining and making it succeed?

I think you need to sit back and think about what you're arguing.

Fact: the OWS hasn't really accomplished much.

If they had you would have posted what they have done. As I've asked several times.

Instead you felt the need to turn the argument around and go on the offensive.

Ask yourself: why would someone refuse to post evidence of something and instead prefer ad hominems? Is it because they are aware there is no supporting evidence for their argument? Obviously.

[sabrina 1]

160. Speaking of strawmen! I have been posting about OWS's successes since the day

the movement began up to and including today. You do know that posts remain available for people who are interested in a subject don't you?

See my last post to you regarding their huge successes in Court over the past several weeks, a new phase of the movement, accomplished with their very successful media coverage of the movement from day one. I notice you ignored those two very significant successes though.

And this? Not even a 'nice try'!

Wait, so you're arguing simultaneously that it is a massive success but it's my fault for not joining and making it succeed?

I'm tempted to turn this into a poll, to see if DUers in general think that asking someone who is denying the obvious, that a very successful movement is not successful, why, if this is what they really believe, they have done nothing to make it a success, (especially since they claim they support the intent of the movement), is the same thing as assuming said individual is needed to make an already successful movement, successful.

Since your logic fails so massively, let me explain. If someone claims to support an idea, then criticizes those who are putting it into practice, it is logical to ask why they have done nothing other than criticize, if they believe they themselves know so much more.

So again, why are you not taking the opportunity afforded by the very structure of this movement to do what you claim they are not doing?

I think the reason is obvious.

[4th law of robotics]

161. Let's sum up, because I think it's clear you're running out of steam

you have claimed no concrete successes for the OWS.

You have attacked me personally on several occasions.

And you have falsely attributed beliefs to me.

So again, why are you not taking the opportunity afforded by the very structure of this movement to do what you claim they are not doing?

Obviously because the very structure is bound to fail. They have no political fundraising mechanisms. They are making no effort to energize voters behind or against specific candidates. In short they have done absolutely nothing to even start towards a possible solution within our political system.

They're spoiled kids playing outside because it makes them feel good. At no point have they done anything that might hint at future success.

All they've done is squander popular will on a serious subject by acting like fools in public.

[sabrina 1]

184. Mmm, some very familiar phraseology on OWS.

So in your mind, OWS is made up of 'kids'?? And spoiled ones at that?
In fact, nothing could be further from the facts. Which is no surprise, considering where those 'facts' originally came from.


Just fyi, much of your commentary here is so similar to the Faux/Right Wing Noise Machine's take on OWS, a fact I'm sure, you are unaware of. So to help you in the future NOT find yourself associated with those 'sources', here are a few examples, and the reason why I asked for your sources so that we could direct you to more credible sources:

Perfect example here. You say:

They're spoiled kids playing outside because it makes them feel good.

O'Reilly says, to Juan Williams who tried to explain OWS to him, futilely as could be expected:

O'Reilly: Let me break it to you. if you have a college degree in this country, unemployment is 4.5% OK, Juan! So all these people, take a shower and they can get a job if they went to college. That's all.

And the rabid right winger Frank Miller, demonstrating a total inability to grasp the facts about a movement that clearly terrifies him:

Right Wingers on Occupy

He calls the Occupiers "iPhone and iPad wielding spoiled brats" who should “In the name of decency, go home to your parents, you losers. Go back to your mommas’ basements and play with your Lords Of Warcraft.

And dozens more available because as we all know, when one Winger says something, they all repeat it like lemmings throughout the Right Wing Noise Machine.

Never mind that OWS is NOT made up of 'kids' but of people of all ages, all ethnicies, all walks of life, from the Military to Unions, to Doctors, Lawyers, Nurses, Teachers, Fire Fighters, College Students, to people as old as the WW11 Veteran who showed up to support them at age 90.

What a shame, that you would repeat such totally incorrect information here on DU where you could so easily have found the facts.

It's not going away, sorry about that. Maybe some day you will understand it as it grows and evolves as it is doing on a daily basis.

[4th law of robotics]

189. I'll leave you with a parting thought

hopefully it will actually . . make you think.

Which candidates right now are cozying up to, or building a coalition against the OWS movement?

None.

Think about that for a moment.

[sabrina 1]

196. I will ask you the same question. Once again you display

your lack of knowledge about this movement. 'Cozying up'??? Why on earth would a movement whose very existence is because of what 'cozying up' to politicians and vice versa has done to our system of Government, even consider being 'cozied up to'??

Had you asked me what elected officials have expressed support for this movement, that would be a different matter.

This movement will not allow itself to be 'used' for political purposes. That you are unaware of even that simply fact, is astounding.

This movement is about removing the corrupting influences from our government that have made it inoperable for the benefit of the people it is meant to serve.

And yes, there are good politicians in DC and most of them HAVE expressed support for a movement THEY realize was necessary and took way too long to emerge.

I suggest you rethink that question and the language you used to frame it. It was unfortunate frankly.

[vanlassie]

201. You are rude to speak that way to another poster.

And I think when you study the declared intentions and beliefs of Occupy, they are NOT willing to cozy up to politicians. This is the reason they have on several well publicized occasions, refused to allow some VIP to jump the line to speak at their functions. It is not your daddy's (or YOURS, if you're my age) movement. You are looking for traditional markers like head counts and who is cozying up to who- that's an old paradigm.

Probably it would be good for some of us to watch and study before we declare the movement dead.

[Mosaic]

233. That guy is too lazy to study the many sources

And learn what is being done. A great deal as I have read in an amazing short amount of time, fact. His or her ignorance is on display, with an obnoxious ego to match.

[Summer Hathaway]

165. Well said ...

"Ask yourself: why would someone refuse to post evidence of something and instead prefer ad hominems? Is it because they are aware there is no supporting evidence for their argument? Obviously."

[sabrina 1]

186. Maybe you should ask yourself why that poster has ignored

the answers he received, and attempted to divert attention away from them. Some advice, next time read the comments before jumping in to agree with someone who has presented false information. It makes you look bad frankly.

For some reason, this poster is posting right wing talking points, he has been given two examples of successes by me in this thread, one of which I repeated since he ignored it the first time, and both of which he ignored altogether, and worse, claimed never happened.

He was also informed that I, among others here, have written extensively on OWS right here on DU and that he is free to go to my journal, or do a search of my hundreds of comments reporting on the many successes of this movement.

So let me ask you a question? Why did you jump in to agree with someone without reading the comments which contain the evidence that he was making a false allegation regarding the conversation which is right here in front of him and you?

I am eternally fascinated by this kind of thing in online forums.

[4th law of robotics]

192. Er, just to clarify

no one answered my question. Not directly anyway (ad hominems don't count).

I am posting obvious facts, not talking points.

Also I am not using as my sole source of information the organization in question.



So to be clear: every thought you have put in words here is false. Not most of them. Every.Single.One.

[sabrina 1]

200. Now I am going to ask you to post

your proof for what you just said. This will probably take a while, and I have some other important things to do, but I will check back later so I can analyse your responses, because you surely would not make a statement like this:

So to be clear: every thought you have put in words here is false. Not most of them. Every.Single.One.

without being certain you can back it up.

Every. Single. One.

This ought to be good. And thanks for helping to kick this thread btw.

[Summer Hathaway]

197. Why did you jump to the conclusion

that I have not read all of the replies in this thread?

The fact is that I did so, before making the comment I did. And, quite frankly, it seemed apparent that you were the one who was failing to back up your claims.

[sabrina 1]

198. Then I suggest you read them again, AND the comment which you

recommended which falsely stated that no examples of successes were given by me. I can only go by what I read and you did rec a comment that made false statements.

[notundecided]

305. OWS'S Great Accomplishment

People don't feel powerless anymore.

[pintobean]

307. I never did.

Who are these people and how are they empowered?

[4th law of robotics]

308. If you sincerely believe that their greatest accomplishment

is that some people feel differently now then you are admitting they are pretty much a failure.

This isn't Sesame Street. The goal wasn't to boost a few individuals' self esteem. It was to reform a corrupt system.

[zappaman]

310. Dude, don't you get it?

It's a social movement, not a political movement!
Hundreds of people now feel better about themselves.
Success!

[Teamster Jeff]

98. People in the street protesting is where "change we can believe in" will come from

Protests, strikes, boycotts any kind of organized action by people who are fed up is the beginning. It's easy to ridicule and mock any small move as being futile or hopeless against corporate power and a captured government but if it is looked at as a beginning or a spark these protests have meaning.

[socialist_n_TN]

116. Yep, what you said Jeff...............

It devolves back into a hard core group who DO act in concert with labor. At least that's the way it is here in Nashville. There are several Occupiers who work with SEIU, UAW, CWA and some other unions too. Plus, they work with community orgs involved with worker issues. That hard core group can bring out assorted supporters for protests, strikes, boycotts and any kind of organized action.

I expect to see more of that in the future. But as I said above, I don't look at Occupy to be the end-all of the reaction to the complete corporate takeover of our lives. It's just another step in the journey. There WILL be further steps.

[WilliamPitt]

100. ...

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/10137-the-dawns-early-light

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. By the by, feel free to use any of the photos

[ananda]

103. Thank you nadin and everyone..

.. who helps keep Occupy alive, front and center.

Occupy.

[vanlassie]

121. Effect of Occupy or any social movement are not always in your face.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/07/05/uc-berkeley-cancels-order-for-armored-police-vehicle-amid-uproar/

I'm damn glad there will NOT be further militarization of the police in this particular neck of the woods. Occupy influenced cooler heads to prevail.

[Fire Walk With Me]

138. :D

[vanlassie]

135. Occupy has also been busy working on forclosure issues.

California got a good result this week.

[Liberal_in_LA]

153. thanks for the pics

[Fire Walk With Me]

166. Occupiers are marching down the beach toward the Koch Bro's Romney fundraiser.

$50K per plate.

http://nn99.org/2012/07/08/coke-brothers-hampton-party-crashed-by-occupy-wallstreet/

[nadinbrzezinski]

170. I first read fifty... and I went that's all?

Oh wait, dyslexia hits again, FIFTY THOUSAND!

That is mightily expensive rubber chicken!

[sabrina 1]

271. They're everywhere!!

Lol, poor Koch Brothers, they just can't have a 'Buy the US Government' party in the Hamptons without those Occupiers crashing the party.

Having worked there for several summers, I can tell you this will upset the 'residents'. The little people invading their paradise! Wish I was back there right now. This is awesome. And to think they've been doing this for decades and no one brought any attention to what they were up to.

Good for OWS.

[Summer Hathaway]

172. Are there any concrete numbers available

for how many Occupy participants showed up for NatGat?

[nadinbrzezinski]

174. I am sure somebody compiled them

But on Monday we had 300+ in the coalition show up

Yesterday 300+

At philadelphia I got no idea.

Of course, San Diego also had a parallel conference so participation was probably over 1000, which never impresses the thiird way. I know that.

[Summer Hathaway]

176. I have searched to no avail

thought you might know - or someone else here.

I've read many blogs/articles from people who attended, but they only contain references like "a crowd then marched", or "a gathering of people then set off down the street", but never cite any actual numbers of participants, or even guesstimates.

The Third Way? Oh, right - I keep forgetting that anyone even asking a question about an Occupy event, much less their 'national gathering', must have a label applied to them, whether appropriate or not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

178. Since police forces nationwide no longer

Do that...and guesstimates by media are not truly taken to heart...and I wasn't there. I'm sure somebody compliled them.

And it's not asking questions... I have no issue with that...read the thread, even when provided with specific examples of occupy work, people still shit stirr. Will even give a third example, California joining the end citizens united... That is in larg part occupies n California.

[Summer Hathaway]

182. Oh, I've no doubt that someone compiled the numbers

But it would seem logical that if the numbers were demonstrative of a huge success - or even came close to the 1,500 participants anticipated before the fact - OWS supporters would be touting those numbers at every opportunity.

So far, silence. I think that answers the question right there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

185. Well don't look for those numbers in the MSM

Locally the delegation topped 100...

[Summer Hathaway]

190. I have not used the MSM as a news source

for several years.

What I have searched on the net is Occupy websites, and blogs/articles written by people who were there and are very enthusiastic about the movement.

And yet no one will go near the numbers.

Why?

It would seem logical - would it not? - that they are steering clear of citing the numbers because they were low enough to dispute the claim that Occupy is growing and attracting more and more people.

This was to be "OWS's first national gathering" - therefore, the number of people who showed up to participate is telling. The fact that no numbers have been cited is the biggest tell of all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

195. A little insight into OWS

And why you will not get the numbers from actuall OWS people. I just gave you the estimate from the events here in San Diego, both on Monday and yesterday. Monday Labor was in charge. So if you ask the Central Labor Council, they got a pretty damn good idea. Why? Union Contingents do that, they count who goes to marches and all that. They keep track.

Yesterday OWS was in charge. There were no sign in lists, there were no lists, period. The only thing that came even close to any list, where you could get some hard numbers, was the number of petitions going around. Of course some of us, can't sign petitions anymore, and some will not out of fear.

So there goes your only tool to get any hard numbers.

I took photos and used very specific formulas we used in EMS to do a rough estimate... but a rough estimate it remains.

Occupy, due to it's nature, does not play the numbers game. Your best bet, assuming somebody did that, is indie press if they counted numbers. I have no idea of OakSho was there, but in that sense, he's good at estimating numbers.

Also there is a certain level of paranoia due to police activity, which yesterday had me challenged by young activist, since yes I was taking photos... that is what journos do. My press pass was issued by the PD, so it looks very official, and police like, even if it says PRESS on the front. She thought, honest to god, I was undercover. Granted, I did not use her photo, not a good one, but her challenge was a tad disturbing.

[Summer Hathaway]

202. I asked specifically about the NatGat numbers

and why they don't seem to be available.

You still haven't answered the question.

[nadinbrzezinski]

203. I did, re-read my post

due to the paranoia, which is partially very justified, OWS has developed a sense of Operational Security that is military like.

Numbers is a tightly held piece of data.

It is what is called in intelligence, Actionable. And given many of the people in OWS ARE vets, they are going back to training.

[Summer Hathaway]

215. Oh, I get it now ...

"Numbers is a tightly held piece of data."

Why did NatGat not think it was tightly-held data when they were touting the estimates of participants at 1,500?

Why did it become top secret after the fact? Could it be that the anticipated number didn't even come close to the actual numbers?

On the one hand, you insist that Occupy is not dead, but is a growing movement. Then, when asked about the numbers of people who participated in NatGat, the numbers can't be revealed out of a sense of 'operational security that is military like'.

Seriously, Nadin - this is all sounding a bit too much like Fundie Christians. "Don't question anything - just believe what we believe."

Now please tell me - with a straight face - that if NatGat had garnered a substantial amount of people, OWS would be keeping that information to themselves.

[nadinbrzezinski]

219. I am just passing it to you from horses mouth

as far as the local occupy is concerned. For god sakes, they did NOT inform the cops of the route though downtown yesterday. A couple times it got a tad on the dangerous side.

Take it or leave it.

I know leave it. I just gave you an answer that you probably did not like, that's ok... they are involved in their communities and evolving... and like it or not, they moved beyond camping. Hell, they might even be your neighbors for all you know.

And I did not tell you NOT TO QUESTION, did I? You did. I welcome the questions, but will make a note of not answering to you next time. Okie Dokie? Is that a deal? In fact, I won't answer ANY of your questions. Deal?

I mean, I get hit over the head for actually trying to help you understand some of this... now do me a favor, go look for Oaksho, if anybody knows and he was there, it would be him. He will even answer you.

[Summer Hathaway]

223. I asked an extremely simple question

Does anyone know the number of people who showed up for NatGat?

It's not that you gave me an answer I didn't like - you gave me NO answer on that very specific question.

Apparently you don't have an answer. Nor does anyone else, it seems.

As I said earlier, the fact that no one wants to go near the actual numbers is an answer, in of of itself. The much-touted "national gathering" of an "ever-growing movement" was a complete bust.

[nadinbrzezinski]

224. You got the DATA I KNEW FROM SAN DIEGO, for the WEEK OF ACTION

you got AN ANSWER, not the one you were looking for. Go look for Oaksho... good bye

[Summer Hathaway]

228. No, it wasn't the answer I was looking for.

I posed a very succinct question: How many people participated in Occupy's first National Gathering?

The answer I've received (from you and others) is that numbers aren't important.

How can one insist that Occupy is a growing movement - if you can't cite the numbers that would prove your point?

[nadinbrzezinski]

232. Ok... San Diego is a rather conservative town

At the elite power structure. 300 people on a Saturday morning is not shabby at all.

I guess we need the camps back, in your face.

What is more, 300 people on a Monday at midday is not that shabby either, in fact one of the largest midday rallies I've seen in this town..

I did not say numbers were non important, I even gave you numbers. I tried to explain to you why the activist themselves are not reporting them.

By the way, here is how insignificant this movement is. Central Division, SDPD, was baby seating them, not part of it, all of it.

There is more, Harbor Police had the inner uniformed security circle at the Bayfront Hotel.

And this is not paranoia, this is real, FBI was there as well, and I am betting Secret Service. Why was that? The negotiations on the fourth floor, and foreign VIP nationals. Only reason I could get through the cordon, and to the Starbucks to get water...were the Press Credentials. You might think that they're irrelevant, well for an irrelevant non-violent group, some people in power take them damn seriously.

Gets better, attendees were told to remove badges before leaving negotiating floors, that included press by the way.

But you are correct, these hippies are irrelevant and that overt and covert force was for nothing.

Have an excellent day...you believe they're irrelevant, but the state ain't agreeing with you.

[Summer Hathaway]

241. My original question remains, Nadin

How many Occupiers showed up for the National Gathering?

The number of participants in a NATIONAL OWS event would go a long way in proving whether support for this movement is growing or waning.

I cannot phrase the question more simplistically than I already have.

HOW MANY PEOPLE SHOWED UP FOR WHAT WAS TOUTED AS BEING A NATIONAL GATHERING OF OWS SUPPORTERS?

And please spare me the "top secret" crapola. If the number of participants was in any way worth citing, that number would have been splashed all over DU, along with other political websites following this movement and their so-called achievements.

One can only conclude that the numbers disprove the idea that this movement is growing in participants. That's why they aren't being mentioned - or have been deemed 'top secret'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

246. Go look for oaksho! And numbers

You discount what I posted because it doesn't fit your narrative. For a has been group, the attention of the state says otherwise.

Deal with it, or not, I don't give two shits.

You were told info of the LOCAL week of action. If I was in Philly, which I was not, I'd give you the info, from photos and estimates. The MSM probably did not publish piccies, let alone...pay attention joe, crowd pictures. If they did, especially large crowds, we can play the estimate game.

Do you have those? I can try to help you. You don't...well then.

And damn look-e here, I found the answer. I think you did not look hard enough

500, per the Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/05/occupy-national-gathering-philadelphia-protest-law-entropy?newsfeed=true



Yup, always look for a damn reporter. You sure you looked for it? Took me five seconds.

By the way common dreams reprinted...oh glorious five seconds.

[Summer Hathaway]

251. I never asked about the LOCAL week of action

I asked specifically about the NATIONAL call to action.

If you have no info on the NatGat numbers, simply saying so would have sufficed. Instead you launched into one of your usual diatribes instead of simply answering the question posed.

Oh, and BTW - if 'the numbers' of attendees at Occupy events is "top secret", why are free to post the numbers for local events? Or are some numbers more "top secret" than others?

[nadinbrzezinski]

253. You got your numbers

500 per the Guardian, specifically on the Fouth of July

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/05/occupy-national-gathering-philadelphia-protest-law-entropy?newsfeed=true

Again.

It also RAN IN COMMON DREAMS and it took FIVE FRACKING SECONDS TO GOOGLE. I think you never googled this.

So if they got 500 on the Fourth, it is quite possible they got 1500 over the week.

You got a number there, a fracking concrete number from the National WEEK of action for a SINGLE FRACKING DAY that took all of five fracking seconds to google. That must be really hard work?

Did I mention the Fourth broke temp records?

[Summer Hathaway]

267. I posed the simple question

as to whether anyone knew the numbers for Occupy NatGat at 6:05 p.m. EST.

Your response comes back at 9:05 EST.

If it only took five seconds to find this info, why did it take you THREE HOURS to find it and post it - instead of insisting that the numbers are 'top secret'?

Is the Guardian exempt from posting the 'top secret' numbers? Or will OWS be launching a lawsuit as to The Guardian divulging 'top secret' information?

[Summer Hathaway]

254. OMG!!!

A whole five hundred people!

After a call across the nation, a whole five hundred people showed up for a 'national gathering of Occupy!"

Yes, this movement is growing by leaps and bounds! A movement that started with an estimated 1,500 participants in NYC is NOW up to five hundred nationally!

Thanks, Nadin - and the fact that it took you five seconds to find this article begs the question: If it was so easy to find, why has it taken you so long to find it and post it here?

Or did you have to go through "top secret" channels in order to get permission to do so?

[nadinbrzezinski]

256. Because I wasn't looking for it

You were

And it was the whole week, that's one day. If they followed the San Diego pattern, they probably had at least 1000.

Just the rallies alone, counting the repeat marchers and the people who came to the rally but not the march, that's 500 right there.

The conferences, from Tuesday to Saturday, another five hundred easy...

But I will remind you, YOU WERE THE ONE ASKING THE QUESTION, I THINK YOU NEVER LOOKED OR HAVE NO CLUE HOW TO USE THE FRAKING GOOGLE.

Now you want the rest of the data, go look for it.

Oh and before you accuse me of being obtuse, I am a reporter. My job is to report on these things. But I am sure you can find the rest.

Some points of interest, the mayor forbid the FD from giving water to attendees.

Now go on...if you are that curious, I am not...use the fracking google.

[Summer Hathaway]

274. Well, what is it, Nadin?

The Guardian (which you quoted) had it right at 500 - or the "pattern" had it right at "at least a thousand"?

Either way, a poor showing for a "national event" for a group that is growing in numbers - wouldn't you say?

I cannot believe you would bring up the "mayor forbid the FD from giving water to the attendees" thingy.

So the movement that is going to change the world didn't have the foresight to bring their own water to an event in the middle of the hot summer - and we should all gather around their sound judgment?

[nadinbrzezinski]

270. One last thing

You did notice the source right? Not OWS. Not the MSM, the British Guardian

Go ask OSD for the numbers I gave you about the events I attended. I'll be shocked if they actually know the numbers.

Like me, you had a reporter PHYSICALLY walk in, and do a crowd estimate.

And yes dear, you could have found that article within a minute.

[Summer Hathaway]

273. If I could have found that info

within a minute, why did it take you three hours to find it?

And are we supposed to be impressed with 500 people showing up at a "national gathering" of OWsers?

[nadinbrzezinski]

275. It took me ten seconds actually

You are ASSUMING, wrong mind you, that I was looking. That's volumes on your part.

You claim the information was not there. Then I post a THREE DAY OLD STORY and you ASSUME I've been looking that long? Volumes indeed. You never looked, or I'll be charitable and you have no clue, so here is the search string...

Occupy national meeting and philadelphia.

There are a couple others you could use.

Remember, this thread is about Occupy San Diego, specifically about one of two events I personally COVERED as a reporter.

So next week will you ask about Comic-Con International? I'm covering that dear. Or do you want to talk of the Presser by labor regarding the Convention Center?

Speculation purely, given this lasted a week, and the Fourth broke all kinds of heat records, they likely reached one thousand, if not higher. But you can go look for that data. Why am I saying that? Many of my local occupiers are in their sixties and seventies...do you think it's safe for older people to be out in 100 degree weather? Yes dear, it was that hot.

Yesterday, I got water to one of our older marchers who was looking a little sick. We were just in the 80s, and quite frankly did not feel like taking photos of an ambulance crew taking an older person to the hospital. Yup, I'm pressed and?

Your problem is that you ignore pieces of data to fit a story line.

And 500 in 100 degree weather is actually quite impressive. You try to stay out in that weather. Or you did not realize what the temperature was? I can tell you from recent experience, covering fires, that 90+ is miserable.

Now, I gave you a search string, you are that curious, go for it...search, learn to use the google.

[Summer Hathaway]

280. "Remember, this thread is about Occupy San Diego, specifically about ...

... one of two events I personally COVERED as a reporter."

Remember that my question was about NatGat - specifically. If you didn't have the answer, you could have said so. Instead you went on and on about 'numbers being top secret information'.

I never said the info wasn't there. In fact, I said the opposite, that I was sure someone had compiled the numbers. I was obviously curious as to why the OWS sites were not citing the numbers. I now know why. They were too dismal to own up to.

Whether it is safe for anyone to be out in this heat, for whatever reason, is neither here nor there. Or are you saying that the Occupy spokespeople who predicted 1,500 attendees simply didn't know how hot it would be? Do they not have access to Google? Did they not think that bringing water to such an event might be prudent?

And none of this exchange changes the fact that I asked my specific question three hours before you came up with an answer - an answer that is completely the opposite of proving that Occupy is a growing movement - unless it's the winter, and it's too cold. Unless it's the spring, and it's too wet. Unless it's the summer, and it's too hot ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

286. Gee I told you why Occupiers are not doing numbers

Press will, and not always. See, I did not bother in two articles filed

So let's review this, you first said data was not there among occupiers, you are correct, they don't do that

Then you went into the numbers simply don't exist. I linked to a three day old PRESS article in a FOREIGN paper.

As to proving, proving what? It/ a social justice movement. It's involved in multiple things both INSIDE AND OUTSIDE the system.

We have given you data you conveniently ignore. And I guess you are correct in one thing, it's not in your face anymore. Sorry...they're NOT at your local park camping and getting pepper sprayed, but the lawsuits are rolling in.

Like the civil rights movement, or the LGBT community, it is in it's early stages. You don't have them in parks, you have them in courts, in city councils, inside the democratic party as delegates, a few as candidates, outside the democratic party holding signs. You got them working with Unions, like oh Monday...you have them working with different coalitions working on social justice issues.

They have been behind a lot of the pressure with Congress, and protesting Congress, regarding Wallstreet. Kamela Harris, google her name, thanked them for their role with banks. (Free clue so you do not go astray, California)

They were instrumental in getting the Homeowner Bill of Rights to Governor Brown

They were critical in getting the California Legislature to vote to demand an end to Citizens United.

Locally they were essential in getting the NRC's attention regarding San Onofre, after getting multiple City Councils in the North County on board.

Locally they're also working with several groups in the Mission Trails park

That is just from the top of my head

For an insignificant worthless group, their little grubby hands are every where.

No dear, they are no longer camping. You wanted to shit stirr, let's be clear about this. You did not want an answer. You never have. And like a southern democrat, you oppose them.

So let me ask you, like I did with 4th Law, what have you done lately beyond shit stirring on a board?

[zappaman]

236. "Numbers is a tightly held piece of data."

[pintobean]

257. Outside

in the daylight
press invited
double-super secret.

[Summer Hathaway]

292. "Occupiers don't do numbers."

Only when they predict how many people will show up at their national gathering.

When the numbers don't even come close to their predicted estimate - well, then, "OWS doesn't do numbers."

It's all so convenient.

[vanlassie]

187. If large numbers equal success.

However, I think we know that large numbers -in the millions- demonstrated against invading Iraq.

Success is not always going to be reported to you on CNN and NPR.

[Summer Hathaway]

194. Again ...

Don't oay attention to either. The MSM has been dead to me as a 'news' source for many years.

I don't expect the MSM to report accurate numbers. However, I would think that the OWS movement would be more than happy to tout those numbers, and so far they haven't - unless, of course, the numbers were truly disappointing and demonstrative of non-success.

[sabrina 1]

206. Numbers. This past week, there were occupy events across the country.

Philly had the largest one, with people coming from other cities, some even from SD, to support the Veterans who had asked Occupy to assist them with their demonstration.

That event took five days, so the numbers will vary depending on which day we are talking about.

You appear to not support the movement, which is fine, just odd for a Dem though, since most Occupiers are Dems and since many elected Dems have been to meetings and have stated their support for the movement, good Dems who acknowledge the need for a people's movement to back them up when they try to represent the people in a city where Corporate Lobbyists rule.

[Summer Hathaway]

217. I am well aware

that there were Occupy events across the country.

That still doesn't answer the question as to how many showed up for NatGat. Of course numbers would vary from day to day over a five-day event. But I have not found any numbers for any day - no less total participation in the 'national gathering' over the five-day period.

Why is that?

I neither support the movement, nor do I oppose it. I find it to be irrelevant.

[sabrina 1]

222. Well, unfortunately for the Banks, it is far from irrelevant.

Thanks to this movement, they failed to get the 'deal' they were demanding after several lawsuits revealed, in the discovery phases, systemic corruption by the Banks and the Mortgage Companies, which led to a need for possible criminal investigations.

Realizing they were caught red-handed, they rushed to DC to get a deal which would preclude any further investigations and/or prosecutions. That deal was close to being sealed, but they did not count on the power of a movement to give its support to one of the holdouts, NY State Attorney, Schneiderman, making it possible for him to resist the enormous pressure in him, to withstand the expected smear campaign launched against him, to give in.

He met with Occupiers and credited them with his ability to stand up for what was right. As a result, it is still possible for him and other US Attorneys to investigate and prosecute corrupt banks and mortgage companies, AND still allows home owners, illegally fore-closed on to sue civilly.

I personally am grateful to them since one of those illegally fore-closed on home-owners is a friend of mine. For a while, it looked like she would be deprived of her day in court along with millions of others.

So while none of this may be relevant to you, it sure is relevant to millions of others, and very relevant to crooked Bankers and Mortgage Corps, the main reason for their crackdown on the movement.

And that is just one of the many successes this movement, still in its infancy, has had so far. The inspiration for this movement, the Indignados in Spain, have moved on to actual involvement in bringing crooked Banksters to justice.

You are entitled to your opinion, but the facts do not support it.

As for numbers, numbers do not matter at this point. Occupiers are involved in dozens of actions across the country every day. Simply having a presence, even a dozen people now, at any event, is enough to demonstrate solidarity with anyone who needs it, Veterans, as was the case in Philly and Unions in Oakland, etc. If a large presence is necessary, it will be there. As it has been whenever necessary.

[Summer Hathaway]

225. "As for numbers, numbers do not matter at this point."

In other words, the numbers that would prove Occupy is a growing movement are too dismal to be pointed to as supporting that contention.

Thanks for the info.

[randome]

227. Bill Maher said it best.

Good message, poor delivery.

And it will continue to be that way until someone is willing to step up and LEAD the movement.

Oh, the OWS believers will say that not having a leader is part of their plan but...no.

[Summer Hathaway]

234. Good message

abysmal delivery.

The numbers show we're growing as a movement.

What numbers?

We're not allowed to say. Top secret and all that.

So how do we know you're growing in numbers, if you can't tell us what the numbers are?

Don't ask questions. Just believe what we're telling you.

I don't think my comparison between OWSers and Fundies it too far off the mark. Both groups refuse to cite facts, and instead insist that one accept their view of things based on faith alone.

[zappaman]

240. The "movement" will not grow without a leader.

Face it, when the media interviews 20 protesters about what it is they are protesting and get 20 different answers, nothing will be accomplished.
If having no leader is indeed "part of the plan", then they need a new plan.

[sabrina 1]

242. When the CORPORATE media interviews anyone,

it means they searched, as Occupiers demonstrated so perfectly when CNN's Goldman Sachs Poster Girl, totally discredited herself and was exposed by actual occupiers for all to see, for people they can manipulate to create a false impression. That was so much fun. Speaking of numbers, HERS have been dismal ever since. We get more people at an OWS unannounced GA than her numbers on CNN on a nightly basis.

A total slapdown of the 'Corporate Media' by Occupier, working to discredit OWS, you seem to have so much faith in. This was another thing of beauty to behold:

And needless to say, Fox never aired that footage, despite promising to do so.



You should turn off the Corporate Media. They are paid to discredit anything that threatens their corporate bosses.

[zappaman]

245. I don't watch corporate media.

That guy was awesome and yes, I've seen him.
Maybe you can tell me why OWS doesn't want a leader.
I maintain they will go nowhere without one.

[sabrina 1]

252. If they had fallen for the calls to name a leader, that leader would have

been jailed by now on charges of terrorism or something close.

This is not a new concept at all. Leaderless movements have existed in the past and over time, it is possible that a leader or leaders will emerge, if necessary. The very fact that the lack of a leader has so frustrated the police, demonstrates how important that decision was. At least for now.

There is nothing that says that in the future, that might not change, but it has worked perfectly, as intended, for now.

[sabrina 1]

238. The numbers that prove OWS is continuing to grow are not limited to protests anymore.

When large numbers are needed, they will be there. The numbers in Philly were large, I have friends who were there, not every day, as they are also involved now in other important activities as the movement evolves.

They were also in NYC last week, and almost every day, there are demonstrations across the country.


Get ready for Occupy Fourth of July in the cradle of liberty.

There has not been a movement from the left in my recollection that has been more relevant and never one that has been on the Global scale of this movement.



Nice touch in Philly. Thank you Occupiers. As many have said, they are the hope of the future.

[Summer Hathaway]

243. How large were the numbers?

And I am asking specifically about NatGat.

"First annual NATIONAL GATHERING of Occupy" - how'd that pan out?

[zappaman]

247. Apparently the numbers are super secret!

Maybe if they had a leader...

[sabrina 1]

283. No, they are not 'super secret'. As I found when I did a simple google search.

Also not a secret, is the tactic being used to distract from the fact that the poster was proven incorrect in her post regarding 'relevancy' which she then attempted to divert from with her transparent demands for 'numbers'. Numbers which, if she really wanted them, are easily accessed in a matter of seconds.

I do not follow the lead of people who use tactics like that, I prefer to keep the conversation on the topic, which after all, she herself raised and now does not want to discuss.

Google, it's a great way to get information, IF you really want it.

[sabrina 1]

250. Not a very good strategy, seriously. Eg, you made a statement above

that OWS was 'irrelevant'. When it was proven to you how wrong that statement was you simply skipped over the evidence to try to change the subject

I always enjoy these exchanges as people learn so much from them. I am very grateful to you btw, for giving me this opportunity.


Did you not read my last post to you btw? You seem to have a habit of ignoring information that doesn't fit with what you want to believe.

There will not be many large protests from now on, unless there is a very good reason. The efforts of the Occupiers have moved on to, eg, THE COURTS! Volunteers will go to protests, such as Philly, while others will be busy engaged in other activities.

When OWS needs the numbers, they will be there, as they were when they shut down the ports in Oakland. Working with the Unions, Veterans, and/or other groups who ask them for their support.

You want numbers? How many cases have OWS won in Court over the past couple of weeks?

How many lawsuits have been filed on behalf of the Press/Occupiers against the Police?

THIS is where the focus is now. To expose the corruption of the police and their connection to Wall Street.

You really are lost when it comes to this movements, seriously. You appear to have no clue what it is all about, or where it is going.

And it is obvious that for some reason, this movement is making you feel threatened in some way. But there is no need to be, it is not what Fox News portrays it to be, seriously!

[Summer Hathaway]

264. To me, it is irrelevant

I do not pretend to speak for the 99% - which Occupy invariably does. I am part of the 99%, and I can assure you they don't speak for me.

I feel neither threatened nor educated by OWS. To depict anyone who finds it irrelevant as frightened or ill-informed is a classic RW tactic - just as those who don't buy into Intelligent Design or the idea that "gays can be cured" is often profferred as demonstrative of people who feel 'threatened' by the Biblical account of things.

I don't have access to Fox News - so it would seem obvious that how it portrays OWS has no impact on my thoughts.

But you are right in one respect: I am lost as to what this movement is all about, or where it is going. And I came to that conclusion by reading OWS's own statements - which are often nebulous, as well as contradictory. Which leads directly into my opinion that what this movement is all about is irrelevant.

[sabrina 1]

266. I just find it odd that any Democrat would find a Social Justice movement

irrelevant. I guess there were Democrats who opposed the Civil Rights Movement in its early years also. So it's probably not all that unusual at this stage of any Social Justice movement.

Do you oppose, eg, OWS's efforts, many of them successful so far, keeping people in their homes, more than Congress has managed to do over the past number of years?

Do you oppose their successes in working with City Councils to provide food and shelter for the homeless?

Do you oppose their work with Veterans and Unions, backing their efforts to get better treatment, and in the case of Unions, fighting with them for the right to a livable wage?

What I find strange is that when OWS was engaging in huge protests, the same people now claiming they are 'dying' because they have moved on from that phase of the movement, were criticizing them for 'wasting time protesting with signs'. Seems to me that no matter what they do, there are people, and yes, they are mostly on the Right, who want this movement to just go away. Which it will not.

What exactly do you think the people ought to be doing to end the corrupt influences of money in our politics? Or are you in favor of the Koch Brothers, the Wall Street Lobbyists, ALEC's infiltration into our political system?

Who else is doing anything to end the corrupt influences or even bring attention to it right now? What are you doing, or do you think the system is working for the people so we have no need to do anything other than stick to the status quo and allow money to control our political system?

You are right when you say you are lost as far as the goals of this movement goes. I am lost as to why especially any Democrat would not see the needs that were not being addressed which made this movement necessary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

269. To your first question, yes

Southern Democrats, who left the party in droves after 1965 and became the heart of the Southern Strategy.

[Summer Hathaway]

272. You seem unable to distinguish

between the goals that people are more than willing to support, and the way in which OWS is purporting to achieve those goals.

There IS a difference between the two.

"What exactly do you think the people ought to be doing to end the corrupt influences of money in our politics?" I would say unequivocally that camping out in public parks is not going to influence one Goddamned thing.

That is not the question - or shouldn't be. To say "what are you doing" is irrelevant. To say "this is what WE'RE doing" should stand on its own. But apparently it doesn't.

I have read over and over - especially on this board - that Occupy is NOT a political movement, and that no one wants either political party to be involved. And yet the Democrats are asked - when convenient to OWS - why they are not participating, when they have already been told they are unwelcome.

Seeing the needs of the citizenry is one thing. Going about satisfying those needs is another.

The fact that asking a simple question (which I did) about how many OWSers showed up at the "national gathering" was met with obfuscation, comments that "numbers don't matter", etc., says it all.

You don't have the numbers to back up the assertion that Occupy is a 'growing movement" at all. What you're left with is insinuating that anyone who doesn't fall into lockstep with OWS is ignorant, ill-informed, a FAUX-News adherent, and so on.

Simple questions beg a simple answer. And ignoring the question leads one to the obvious conclusion - the numbers are waning, and you just won't admit it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

277. Point to me or Sabrina any current occupy, in the US, there is one in Madrid

That has an encampment. Damn, you are six months behind the power curve.

I should clarify, Madrid Spain, less you confuse that with I don't know Madrid Missouri. Or is that New Madrid?

[sabrina 1]

279. Your question was the 'obfuscation'. Following on a post that proved you wrong

regarding the 'irrelevancy' of OWS. Rather than address the information provided for you, you leaped to what is a well-known tactic. I did a quick google search and found the numbers in a few seconds. Therefore, it was clear to me that if that was what you wanted, you could have done the same thing. I do not respond to 'tactics'. And there is no chance of obfuscation when the information is so readily available. So much for that claim.

And this is a totally false claim:

I have read over and over - especially on this board - that Occupy is NOT a political movement, and that no one wants either political party to be involved. And yet the Democrats are asked - when convenient to OWS - why they are not participating, when they have already been told they are unwelcome.

I don't know what your sources are, but this could not be more incorrect. Democrats were not only NEVER told they were unwelcome by OWS, many of them have participated and were more then welcomed at many OWS events.

Right now, four NYC Council members, are united with OWS protesters in a civil suit against Bloomberg and the NYPD for the illegal treatment they and the protesters were subjected to during demonstrations in which THEY PARTICIPATED. I have no doubt that OWS members in their districts will gladly vote for them in their next elections. Again, where on earth are you getting these stories from?

And what is this? 'You don't have the numbers to back up the assertion that OWS is growing'? Are you even aware that the US Occupy movement was late in joining the Global Movement of which it is now a part? How on earth could anyone count the numbers which are all over the world? This movement is in Hong Kong, in Australia, all over Europe, in Asia, in India, in Africa, even in Antarctica,


Occupy the Tundra

And it grew:

?uuid=36TvcvmSEeCvhYhGIVt8PQ

It is everywhere. And YES, it is growing and likely to grow even more the more the corruption is exposed.

Last November, when OWS coordinated with the rest of the world on the streets of cities across the globe, the numbers were in the millions. And for everyone on the streets of the world's cities, there were hundreds who were supporting them. But who was counting? And they have been joined by protesters in Egypt, in Tunisia and elsewhere, including Iraq, although our new 'democracy' in Iraq totally crushed Iraq's peaceful protesters killing 29 peaceful protesters on the first day.

A simple question that is easily accessible is not a simple question, it is a tactic, and not a very good one as I already pointed out.

You have not answered the simple questions I asked you as to whether or not you support what OWS is currently doing for the poor, the homeless, Veterans, the fore-closed on. You have obfuscated, claiming you don't like HOW they are doing it, or something.

Well frankly I doubt those whose homes have been saved care much about your judgement on how it was done, they are now members of this movement as it grows and expands and continues to actually do something, while keyboard warriors sit around whining about how they are doing it.

You tell THESE PEOPLE that you do not approve of 'how they are doing it' and see what they have to say:

Occupy Our Homes Saves Another Family From Foreclosure



A Detroit husband and wife who have spent months worrying that they might be evicted from their home of 22 years received word on Tuesday morning and learned they will be able to stay.

You tell them that you don't like how Occupy went about helping them.

Occupy Our Homes, a movement to protect families from foreclosures and evictions, has enjoyed a recent string of successes. In February, the group helped Helen Bailey, the 78-year-old former civil rights activist who was threatened with foreclosure by JPMorgan Chase while the company trumpeted its efforts to uphold Martin Luther King Jr.’s legacy, to stay in her home following a successful campaign by Occupy Nashville.

The group also aided a Detroit husband and wife who spent months worrying they could be evicted from their home of twenty-two years. The couple received news they would be permitted to stay after an aggressive campaign that was led by members of Moratorium Now, Occupy Detroit and Homes Before Banks and included the family’s supporters blocking the contractor from placing a dumpster.

Additionally, Occupy Atlanta prevented the eviction of a family when two dozen protesters encamped on the family’s lawn, and Occupy Our Homes delayed another foreclosure in Rochester, as did Occupy Cleveland in November.

Most recently, Occupy Homes MN worked with a mother of one of the group’s organizers to keep her home.

Read the whole article if you actually do give a damn about people affected by the corruption on Wall Street or don't, but your standards of how it should be done, mean nothing, unless you are doing it better.

Seeing the needs of the citizenry is one thing. Going about satisfying those needs is another.

Yes, exactly. But you have refused to comment on the fact 'going about meeting those needs' is exactly what OWS is currently successfully doing. Why is that? It's a simple question after all.

[Summer Hathaway]

282. Holding up a sign that says "Occupy"

does not necessarily equate to accomplishment of any goals.

Besides, it was you who pointed out that "numbers don't mean anything".

[sabrina 1]

284. Thank you! And again you refuse to address an issue YOU raised

once you are provided with facts.

Once the info is provided, you veer off, as expected, in a totally irrelevant direction, just like your 'I want numbers' routine!

Lol!

The predictability of the anti-Social Movement contingent is becoming less and less of a challenge, and I so love challenges.

Seriously, why not just get to the point? Not that it wasn't obvious from the beginning.

However, I think this has been very enlightening for a lot of people.

Or so I am being told.

Again, thanks for your cooperation, no matter how inadvertent it was.

And for the opportunity to provide information for those who actually are sincere.

[Summer Hathaway]

290. I asked a simple question

How many Occupiers participated in The First Annual National Gathering of OWS.

It would seem an obvious question in a thread about how "Occupy isn't dead". The numbers who participated in a national event would seem to point to whether this movement is growing or declining.

The responses have ranged from "numbers don't mean anything", to "do you know how hot it was in Philly?"

The point is that those who are insisting that Occupy is growing in numbers have absolutely no facts to back up that assertion.

In fact, the numbers demonstrate the opposite. 500 people showed up at a 'national gathering"? That's one-third of the people who showed up in a single city, NYC, for the launch of this movement - and that was ten months ago.

"Once the info is provided, you veer off, as expected, in a totally irrelevant direction, just like your 'I want numbers' routine!"

I started with asking for the numbers, and never veered off the original question. To state that asking for the numbers is an 'irrelevant direction' speaks for itself - the fact that the numbers are so abysmal, no one wants to own them.

That's it - I'm done. Perhaps I'll weigh in again when the numbers are down to five people at a 'national gathering' - just for the entertainment of seeing people like yourself try to convince everyone that the movement is growing by leaps and bounds.

It's all getting a bit too Spinal Tap at this point. OWS isn't losing supporters - it's just appealing to a smaller, more select audience.

[sabrina 1]

293. I provided you with answers which you chose to ignore.

Why did you do that? The 'numbers' were a click away. And no, you started by saying that OWS was irrelevant. I proved you wrong, you ignored that information and veered off to 'but wheeeeere are the numbers'?

Your next claim was that OWS was not doing things that helped people. Again you were provided with info proving you wrong. Again you veered off course, refusing to address the facts, and focused in on yet another diversion. The 'tundra' photos were merely a humorous addition to the facts in a long post answering your supposedly sincere 'concerns'. No surprise that you ignored everything else, refused to answer MY questions, and focused on an irrelevant though amusing piece of information.

I don't know why you are unwilling to admit that you do not like this new Global Social Justice Movement. There is no requirement that you do. Yet, you are struggling hard to try to explain your position for some inexplicable reason.

As I said before, it is curious to see Democrats opposing a Global and thankfully, expanding Global Social Justice Movement but, again, this is not the first time in history that it has occurred.

You can try to excuse your refusal to acknowledge the facts presented to you, but the record here is clear. I am not new to this kind of opposition to OWS. But at least the Right make no pretenses, they simply hate OWS and say so, without the prevarications.

Seriously, just say what you really want to say. You oppose a movement that is a threat to the status quo. Many people do not like challenges to the way things are no matter how unjust those 'things' may be. It's not a crime, I can deal with your position. What I do not like, is the pretense, the attempt to have it both ways because that simply is not possible.

[Summer Hathaway]

294. We've gone through this before, sabrina

Your attempts to insist that I said something I clearly didn't say - and the posts are there for all to see.

"And no, you started by saying that OWS was irrelevant." No, my first foray into this thread was to ask if anyone had the numbers for NatGat participants.

For me, OWS is irrelevant. You did not prove me wrong. It is still irrelevant to me.

"I don't know why you are unwilling to admit that you do not like this new Global Social Justice Movement. There is no requirement that you do. Yet, you are struggling hard to try to explain your position for some inexplicable reason."

I have not attempted to explain my reasons for thinking OWS irrelevant at all. I have merely stated - over and over - that the numbers (or lack of a willingness to admit to them) does not go very far in convincing anyone that Occupy is a growing movement, which was the idea behind the OP.

Again, like far too many here, you translate a lack of support for OWS as 'opposition to a movement'. I am neither opposed nor supportive. Because it is all irrelevant to me.

"It's not a crime, I can deal with your position. What I do not like, is the pretense, the attempt to have it both ways because that simply is not possible."

I am not sure what you mean by 'having it both ways'. I think I have been abundantly clear as to how 'I will have it', and it is equally clear that it is one way: I will have the Occupiers tell me their numbers are growing with facts that back up that assertion - or, when the numbers don't support their assertion, I will call them on it.

"I am not new to this kind of opposition to OWS. But at least the Right make no pretenses, they simply hate OWS and say so, without the prevarications."

I don't hate OWS. It is irrelevant to me. Are you suggesting I am part of the Right because I don't support OWS? If that is the case, just say so yourself.

Oooh, edited to add: "Your next claim was that OWS was not doing things that helped people."

Well, sabrina - please feel free to quote the post in which I said any such thing. Or merely identify it. G'head.

[sabrina 1]

295. Considering that it is so irrelevant to you, you have spent more time here

arguing about it than it would have taken you to help someone stay in their home today.

I gave you information on a small example of one of the current activities OWS is now involved in, helping people stay in their homes, eg. You did not like my saying that you may not care about people, yet you say that a movement that is helping people fight illegal foreclosure, feeding the poor etc, is irrelevant to you.

No matter what it is to YOU, it is not irrelevant to those people who are being helped and could not get that help anywhere else. I'm surprised that you could not at least have acknowledged that much. Too difficult for you for some reason.

But, as you stated so clearly, it IS irrelevant to you. I thought so and wish you had not wasted so much time arguing over it. You are not in favor of helping people. I guess you think people should 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps' or whatever, again fine, but I despise that kind of thinking, sorry, I am a Democrat for a reason.

And that is what I mean about 'having it both ways'.

You can continue to claim the movement not growing, and ignore the sheer vastness of a movement, that, as far as a I know, nothing like it has ever existed on this global scale before, but that won't make it so. You're simply wrong. Your OPINIONS are irrelevant.


The only reason anyone would wish for a movement to fail would be because they really do not like the whole idea. And that's fine. A lot of people did not like the idea of the Civil Rights Movement either.

As I said before, a Democrat who wants to see a Social Justice Movement fail is very odd to me. I don't know any in RL, all of the Dems I know in RL are fully supportive of OWS, it just comes naturally to them. A Republican? It is par for the course for most of them, , it's in their DNA to hate Social Justice Movements.

I think you are fooling yourself, you do hate OWS, it's obvious in every comment you make. Lol, no one cares, really. They expected to be hated, by all the 'right' people and no one so far has been disappointed.

[Summer Hathaway]

303. As I said, sabrina

we've gone through this before. You attribute statements to people that they never made, nor even implied, and then you attack them for saying the things that you have clearly fabricated in your own mind.

"you may not care about people, yet you say that a movement that is helping people fight illegal foreclosure, feeding the poor etc, is irrelevant to you."

I've said that Occupy is irrelevant to me. I said nothing about helping people being irrelevant. You do realize that there are people, and organizations, that assist others that are NOT associated with OWS?

"You are not in favor of helping people. I guess you think people should 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps' or whatever."

This is part of why I am not involved with OWS - the 'our way or the highway' mentality; the notion that anyone who doesn't actively support Occupy is against the principles that OWS allegedly stands for. There is a difference between supporting certain principles and the way one goes about putting those principles into action. You don't seem to have the capacity to distinguish between the two.

It's like someone saying they're not a Christian, and the response being, "Oh, so you hate Christians. You hate Jesus and everything he stood for." It is a leap of logic that contains absolutely no logic at all.

You amply demonstrate another part of the OWS mindset that I find abhorrent - the paranoia coupled with a persecution complex. If people don't want to be involved with OWS, they "hate" everyone associated with it, everything it stands for, etc. Again a leap in logic that has absolutely no basis in reality.

Let me tell you that I have no interest in gardening. Most of my friends enjoy it, but I don't; therefore, gardening is irrelevant in my life. By your 'logic', this means I hate all gardeners and hope their gardens fail. Now, seriously - does that make any sense to you?

"The only reason anyone would wish for a movement to fail would be because they really do not like the whole idea." Again you equate not being actively supportive with wanting the movement to fail.

It is just this kind of paranoia/persecution that I find so off-putting, the constant cry that anyone who isn't behind OWS's way of doing things is the enemy. "You're either with us or against us." That kind of rhetoric just reeks of lock-stepping - so you can count me out.

In addition to the above, OWS seems to find enemies at every turn - and if one doesn't lock-step, one is labelled as 'the enemy'. The whole "all cops are pigs and bullies" is one of the latest screeds. I know many cops who are incredibly decent people. So if one has to sign-on with that kind of RW broad-brush statement instead of seeing cops, or any other group of people, as "them" instead of as individuals, good and bad, again you can count me out.

"you do hate OWS, it's obvious in every comment you make. Lol, no one cares, really. They expected to be hated, by all the 'right' people and no one so far has been disappointed."

And yet again, the paranoia/persecution comes to the fore - along with attributing thoughts and feelings to people who disagree with you, despite the fact that they have expressed no such thing. Perhaps mind-reading is part and parcel of the paranoia. "You didn't say that, but I KNOW that's what you meant." You know nothing.

I note that when I asked you to quote where I said the things you insist I said, you have no response. That's because the statements you've attributed to me simply don't exist - and anyone who reads this thread can see that. And, as I HAVE said at the outset, this is not the first time you've done so. It seems to be a habit with you - one you might consider trying to break, if you wish to be taken seriously on any issue.

[sweetapogee]

181. great news

i was afraid the movement died

[cecilfirefox]

199. Right, they are there, and they are about as useless as tits on a pig. nt

http://rackjite.com/new-rules-bill-maher-tells-occupy-99-quit-camping-out-and-do-something-june-8-2012/

[nadinbrzezinski]

205. Bill Mahrer needs to get out more often

they have not been "camping" for close to six months.

Did he miss that memo?

[Throd]

208. OWS reminds me of how I have been hearing how soccer fever would sweep the USA since about '75

This assertion has always been made by soccer enthusiasts.

Before you attack me, let me assert that pointing out the shortcomings of Occupy doesn't make one an apologist or shill for the status quo. Twentyfive years ago the whole "bong hits and bongos" in the city square would have held immense appeal to me, but even then I would have realized that its effectiveness might have limitations.

[randome]

209. Linux is about to overtake Windows, also.

[nadinbrzezinski]

211. You do realize though that they moved away from "camping"

over six months ago... do you aprove of occupying the democratic party and attending State Conventions? Oh wait, the NYT didn't tell you this? Color me surprised and shocked...

That my friend is tip of the iceberg. Like all social justice movements, they are working well within the system and in parallel to it.

[sabrina 1]

288. So you do not know anything about what OWS is currently doing either?

'Bong hits in the public square'? You need to catch up. The Wall Street puppets, in the form of the Bloomberg and his 'private army' otherwise known as the NYPD, and his cohorts around the country, brutally removed OWS from the public square a long time ago. The Movement has progressed from its early days and is now engaged, like their inspiration in Spain, in other activities, such as 'occupying the courts' where they have had many victories over the past few weeks.

Since this is not just a US movement, but a Global Movement, it can hardly be defined by the US alone.

And yes, contrary to the wishes of the 1% it is growing and likely to grow even more now that its initial message is being proven to be even more correct than even they or we probably realized.

[pinboy3niner]

298. Occupiers all over the country have been forcibly removed from public spaces

In L.A., they brought in 1400 cops to evict 300 peaceful protesters.

Whenever someone says that Occupy is dead, no one's afraid of them, we ought to remind them of the memo...

Lobbying firm's memo spells out plan to undermine Occupy Wall Street

By Jonathan Larsen and Ken Olshansky, MSNBC TV
19 Nov 2011

A well-known Washington lobbying firm with links to the financial industry has proposed an $850,000 plan to take on Occupy Wall Street and politicians who might express sympathy for the protests, according to a memo obtained by the MSNBC program “Up w/ Chris Hayes.”

The proposal was written on the letterhead of the lobbying firm Clark Lytle Geduldig & Cranford and addressed to one of CLGC’s clients, the American Bankers Association.

CLGC’s memo proposes that the ABA pay CLGC $850,000 to conduct “opposition research” on Occupy Wall Street in order to construct “negative narratives” about the protests and allied politicians. The memo also asserts that Democratic victories in 2012 would be detrimental for Wall Street and targets specific races in which it says Wall Street would benefit by electing Republicans instead.

According to the memo, if Democrats embrace OWS, “This would mean more than just short-term political discomfort for Wall Street. … It has the potential to have very long-lasting political, policy and financial impacts on the companies in the center of the bullseye.”

...


http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/19/8884405-lobbying-firms-memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-street?lite

[Le Taz Hot]

218. Nadin, reading the responses of the

Party Faithful, you know what it reminds me of? The Democratic Convention of 1968 wherein the Party Faithful refused to let the anti-war DEMOCRATS into the convention because their agenda wasn't part of the status quo. Back then it was "play by our rules or you won't be allowed to play at all" and we all know how THAT turned out.

I understand the OWS doesn't want to join any political parties and for good reason. It's just the response from the naysayers is identical.

[nadinbrzezinski]

220. Same exact response, you are correct

and the problem is that Occupy was both inside the party convention and outside the party convention here in San Diego.

So we may even see fireworks.

Also the responses are typical from the point of view that they cannot accept, even when given concrete evidence, that this moved well beyond camping a while ago.

[zappaman]

248. "So we may even see fireworks."

Another prediction?
Like this one?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002100066#post15

Whatever.

[sabrina 1]

285. I find it fascinating, and even fun as it so similar to the far right's

response to any new Social Justice Movement. I was not really aware how prevalent those right wing viewpoints were on the so-called 'left' though.

OWS sure brings out the right wing talking points. The right absolutely hates this movement with a burning passion. Makes me laugh to see them so upset and confirms that OWS must be doing something right.

[randome]

229. For those of you who have enjoyed this thread...

...join us again in August for the next monthly installment of...the same damned thing.

It's like repeatedly printing an Issue #1.

[Le Taz Hot]

235. "Trash Thread" is much quicker than

clicking on a 200+ post thread, going all the way to the bottom, clicking on "Reply," typing up a post, then clicking on "Post my reply." Just a thought.

[randome]

239. These type of threads are always interesting to me.

Lessons in objectivity and bias. Bad examples are just as useful as good ones. One can even say they are MORE useful.

I've never trashed a thread and I've never put a DUer on Ignore.

And I never will.

[Le Taz Hot]

244. Your response seems to be in opposition to

"...join us again in August for the next monthly installment of...the same damned thing" which didn't seem to indicate usefulness. I'm bored now but you have yourself a wonderful day.

Bye now.

[randome]

249. I also never say "I'm done with you."

Or "Bye".

But that's just me. I'm a gregarious sort.

[sabrina 1]

263. But you never seem to increase your knowledge despite your stated 'interest'.

I always do appreciate your presence though, as I told you before, several times now I believe. You help to kick these threads which is always helpful, as my inbox tells me people do actually learn a lot from these threads. And each person who learns more, expands the movement. We all do our part, even if not intentionally.

[sabrina 1]

261. Ah, my old friend, who has no interest in OWS, but nevertheless, never misses a thread

about the movement. Have you learned any more than you knew last time we met? Because you were seriously lacking, airc, in information about something you had so much to say about.

[randome]

265. Oh, I missed this one for a while because I was busy.

But plenty of others seem to have taken up the banner of constructive criticisms using tools like critical thinking and a fine dose of self-skepticism.

It's all good. I still wish you and OWS well. (That was not snark, by the way.)

[sabrina 1]

268. I'm looking for the critical thinking you speak of, and all I can find are the same old

right wing talking points which any mention of OWS seems to bring forth. But hey, to some that IS critical thinking! Lol!

Glad you finally got here though. Gave me a chance to kick the thread one more time.

[99Forever]

260. Thank you, Nadinbrzezinski.

Keep up the good works.

[warrprayer]

301. They said

.... we were dead! SUPRISE!

[warrprayer]

302. Great Pics

Thanks!!!

[fascisthunter]

311. the hostility and belligerence toward OWS is pretty creepy

It's pathological in fact. Those taking issue with those here posting about OWS are disruptive, belligerent, hostile, arrogant and leaning to the right on most other issues brought to DU's attention here. It tells me they are afraid of people rocking their cozy boat... the same folks who support neo-liberalism and always defend or prop up the Turd Way Dem's...most of which OWS disagree with.

I see a battle for the spirit of America and a battle for the direction of the democratic party. It's good to see it out in the open.

Thanks nadin!

[nadinbrzezinski]

312. You welcome, and I got my work out too!