Stein, Sarandon, Cornel West and their ilk own this.

[Chevy]

This is on them and their lesser of two evils crap.. May they rot in hell.

[BeyondGeography]

1. It's all their fault!

Right.

[Chevy]

9. There are others to blame as well

but with so call friends like them.

[BeyondGeography]

18. We should have been able to get to 270 EV's on Donald Trump

Our candidate didn't get it done. I'll start there, and stay there a long time before I bring up Cornel freakin' West.

[Chevy]

19. Under normal circumstances yes

But this wasn't a normal election was it.

[BeyondGeography]

26. It was winnable

and it's over. Blaming outsiders for where we are now is not how we fix it.

[Chevy]

29. And yet they're all still talking and undermining

any attempts to unify.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

111. Where? I haven't said anything. All I see is you bashing us ... and my "ilk."

[ehrnst]

146. Um... who bashed you? This is your first post here.

Your outrage is completely based on the shoe being your size, as you see it.

Please.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

185. I like Cornell West. I am of the Left.

I suppose I am of his "ilk." So, I took offense. It's his right to be misguided and blame everyone else but Hillary and Trump and the media and the campaign donations (money in politics), people who actually voted for Trump, Russia and her hacks, but I also have the right to speak up.

I personally don't care for Sarandon, and I came out of hiatus in 2008, 2010, and 2016 to vote for the Democratic candidate, but I can understand why those of my "ilk" were fed up with the usual.

The Left-bashing is lame and it is old, and if Democrats want to convince people to vote for them, the OP is a funny way to do that.

[ehrnst]

255. Bashing lefty progressives as "corporatists" is lame and old

And defending attackers of Democrats is a funny way to convince people to vote for Democrats, isn't it?

I am of the left, yet don't feel a need to crush any dissent.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

284. Please show me where I bashed progressives as corporatists.

You're now constructing a straw man.

Your arguments contain a lot of fallacies, I've noticed. First, our single-payer health care debate, which I'm for, and you seem to be against based on your arguments.

I am a progressive and of the Left. I don't feel I need to prove my progressive bona fides to you. Especially you.

All the best ...

[ehrnst]

288. You said, "I am of his ilk"

Cornel West, right?

"The neoliberal vision of the Democratic party has run its course. The corporate wing has made it clear that the populist wing has little power or place in its future. The discipline of the party is strong on self-preservation and weak on embracing new voices. And party leaders too often revel in self-righteousness and self-pity rather than self-criticism and self-enhancement. The time has come to bid farewell to a moribund party that lacks imagination, courage and gusto."

http://www.colorlines.com/articles/cornel-west-activists-immigrants-lets-dump-democratic-party

Perhaps you have the same veiw of the Democrats? If so, I would suggest JPR as more embracing of that veiw than Democratic Underground, don't you think?

And a progressive can be for a multi-payer universal health care plan, just like the ones in most of the rest of the developed world.

I am a progressive and of the Left. I don't feel I need to prove my progressive bona fides to you. Especially you.

All the best ...

[Fantastic Anarchist]

294. You're welcome to your opinion on where I should post.

I don't agree and will continue to post here.

Thank you for your concern, though.

I will consider any further responses by you in this vain as trolling. And no, I won't alert (that's against my principles to do so). You do realize people can read the exchange, correct? If you think you're "winning" ... well, all I can say is that it's not about "winning" an internet argument with some stranger. This is how to include all progressives, and devise a strategy to win back control of the political apparatus. This includes perception and reality. If you want to bash fellow progressives for having the wrong opinion, or for having a bad attitude, then I suggest that you look seriously into the mirror. Or just continue to do what you're doing ...

You're either part of the problem or part of the solution - not both.

[Demsrule86]

268. I despise Cornell West...as for the left bashing...I would argue that such folks as Cornell West,

Stein, and those who did not vote for Hillary are of the right...they enable the right and conservative policy.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

286. I disagree.

I voted for Obama twice, voted in the 2010 and 2014 and 2016 elections for Democrats and Hillary Clinton. Even though I felt that the Democrats weren't doing enough, and with Obama's looking forward and not holding the Bush criminals accountable, it was my decision to be pragmatic and come out of my voting hiatus because the alternative was just too dangerous for me to sit out or to vote third party. However, I can understand those that didn't choose my path. And instead of bashing them, I will try to encourage them to do as I did because the consequences are different now.

But, for some reason, some think that it's productive to bash the supporters of West and Stein. I firmly believe that's not a winning strategy.

There are many like me who will vote Democrats of their own volition (as I did), or who may just need a little convincing. I think you'd be a lot more successful next time if you actually tried to reach out to these folks, communicated with them, try to understand their issues, engage in dialogue and incorporate some of their ideas into the program.

Or you can bash away if it makes you feel better. That's natural. Everyone is pissed off, including me. But it's time to really and seriously rethink our perspective and to try and recruit any and all potential progressive allies.

The Right-wing only plays the part of "divide and conquer" - and they are winning because we let them. We can choose to be in control of our destiny, or we can choose to let the Right divide us.

[ehrnst]

291. I think that those who walk lockstep with Stein and West are not going to be Democrats.

West advised people to "Dump the party"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/24/democrats-delivered-one-thing-100-days-disappointment

And Stein has trashed it as well.

You are the one doing the dividing here. This is Democratic Underground.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

295. I never said I walked lock-step with Cornell West, and I don't like Jill Stein.

I'm not dividing anything. Please review the thread. You and others can read the thread and determine for themselves.

I don't believe you are the arbiter of who gets to post here or not. And as I said in my previous post, while you were throwing out yet another red herring, any continued replies by you upon this course will be considered, by me, as trolling, and subsequently ignored.

If you feel like bashing fellow progressives is a winning strategy, then I feel sorry for you.

All the best ...

[ehrnst]

296. You must have found a sale on straw men!

Well you can believe that I said I was "the arbiter of who gets to post here or not," to your heart's content if it makes you feel like you are being oppressed with all these differing opinions...

I never said that you walk lockstep with West and Stein, but you sure got on the defensive about it in short order.

Please review the thread. I have have.

If you feel like bashing fellow progressives for expressing their own opinions and evidence about the election, on a board for discussion between Democrats, then I feel sorry for you.

All the best ...

[Demsrule86]

298. Stein and Sarandon were Trump supporters both now and during the election so it is not

only right to bash them, it is our duty to do so. All who did not vote for Hillary, voted for Trump. And the Greens are spoilers who gave us United and much bad stuff. in 2000-consider those who died in Katrina...the Greens fingers drip with the blood of innocents ...screw them. Also they should change their name as they clearly threw the environment under the bus and have no environmental concerns...Fixing the destruction of our water supply, our great lakes and the pollution spewing into the air thanks to Trump will not be easy. We may not be able to fix the damage to our water supply via the pipelines. We have to try and that starts by driving the Green supported Right wing including Trump out of office, I doubt we will receive any help with this from the Greens and from what some have called the alt-left.By the way, I dislike that term because I don't think they are of the left...far from it.

[scipan]

321. snopes: "Green Party candidate Jill Stein has not endorsed Donald Trump,

and she has expressed wariness of either Trump's or Clinton's winning the presidency."
http://www.snopes.com/jill-stein-endorsed-donald-trump/
I am tired of people still using that old, debunked trope.

[Demsrule86]

330. From Jill Stein...sorry...I don't know how anyone could defend this person.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/12/jill_stein_hillary_clintons_declared_syria_policy_could_start_a_nuclear_war.html


"On the issue of war and nuclear weapons, it is actually Hillary's policies which are much scarier than Donald Trump who does not want to go to war with Russia.

He wants to seek modes of working together, which is the route that we need to follow not to go into confrontation and nuclear war with Russia."

From KOS...posted on facebook. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/10/31/1589308/-Yes-the-Green-Party-has-Endorsed-Trump-Over-Clinton

"it's time to rename the American "Greens.”

The Green Party’s presidential candidate, Jill Stein, posted today on Facebook a link to an “Open Letter from the Social Media Director of the Stein/Baraka Campaign,” by someone whose name was given only as “Jillian.” The message reads:

…A Clinton presidency is D A N G E R O U S … If a Trump presidency would mean that we have to fight ignorants in the streets—I’m ready for that. “

Not even the “we have to fight ignorants in the street” part, Jill? Is that a call to a gang fight or a misspelling?"

[scipan]

331. You said Stein supported Trump and I simply corrected you.

Stein supported Stein. And I never particularly liked her.

[Demsrule86]

334. she supported Trump over Hillary...I sent you the links...she said Trump was a better choice...and

you can see in one how she is Putin's jillie...so of course she wanted Trump. Before you correct someone...you should make sure you are correct...she was running but said repeatedly Trump would be better than Hillary...that is endorsing Trump...not officially perhaps but an endorsement none the less.

[scipan]

337. all that was addressed in the snopes article.

I really don't feel like getting into the weeds on this. I read your links, now you can read mine as a courtesy.

[Demsrule86]

338. I am done arguing with you... I heard her myself in an interview...and she is just

as dirty concerning the Russians as Trump is in my opinion... I bet she received funds from Putin to attack Hillary. Screw Stein...I hope she rots.

[Chevy]

305. I was referring to Cornel West and Sarandon

So unless you put your self as followers of them the it doesn't include you.

[6000eliot]

38. Those outsiders encouraged voting for Stein, which tipped the scales in Trump's favor.

And yes, I DO blame them. Fuck them.

[NCTraveler]

67. They aren't outsiders.

In any way. They are citizens and have a voice people listen to. They use their voices to sway ignorant people. There can be no claim that they are some kind of outsider in a participatory process.

[BeyondGeography]

70. They weren't part of our losing campaign

Blaming them is a cop-out.

[NCTraveler]

71. They were absolutely a part of it.

I have no clue how you get to the thought they weren't It completely ignores the fact that we have a participatory process. It's simply a fact that shouldn't be dismissed.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

95. There were literally hundreds of celebrities and media people endorsing HRC

And you want to blame Susan Sarandon for Hillary's 54% unfavorable rating among registered voters.

Whose fault is it we lost all those state houses, governorships, the house and the senate?

I blame Richard Dreyfuss.

[NCTraveler]

99. I'm glad you have someone to blame.

Outside of that I'm not sure what your reply has to do with my post. You simply deflected.

[Jakes Progress]

221. He has to have someone.

Self-examination would be painful.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

115. A new Dreyfuss Affair!

[ehrnst]

125. Why don't you 'splain us about that? (nt)

[Fantastic Anarchist]

188. "'Splain' what exactly?

[ehrnst]

196. A New Dreyfuss Affair! You know, what you wrote. (nt)

[Fantastic Anarchist]

200. Um, there's nothing to explain.

It was a play on his name. Nothing really to explain.

[ehrnst]

293. Yeah, there wasn't any misinformation or ulterior political ambitions on the left feeding it.

Not at all....

[scipan]

322. It. Was. A. Joke.

[ehrnst]

123. Ignoring the facts is shooting ourselves in the foot

no matter who's agenda gains from disputing them....

[ehrnst]

274. Ignoring that they trashed Hillary publicly is a cop-out. (nt)

[George II]

124. Too bad their voices were encouraging people to vote for someone other than Clinton.

[NCTraveler]

138. I don't know whey people are so desperate to deflect from that aspect. Nt

[ehrnst]

139. I can think of a few reasons. (nt)

[George II]

169. Here's just one thing that Sarandon said in June last year, there are others:

Hollywood actress and activist Susan Sarandon says former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton would be a more dangerous U.S. president than Donald Trump — provided she’s not indicted first.

Ms. Sarandon, a supporter of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders’ presidential campaign, told a liberal news outlets this week that Mrs. Clinton’s track record portends a much worse future than anything Mr. Trump might catalyze as commander in chief.

“I believe in a way she is more dangerous,” the actress told The Young Turks on Thursday. “They’re both talking to Henry Kissinger, apparently. … She did not learn from Iraq, and she is an interventionist, and she has done horrible things — and very callously. I don’t know if she is overcompensating or what her trip is. That scares me. I think we’ll be in Iran in two seconds.”

The former “Thelma and Louise” star said voters are being “fed” a message that Mr. Trump is “so dangerous” when his promises on illegal immigration amount to a wall being built.

[sheshe2]

234. HMOG!

She said that this week, on the Young Turks???? Sorry Susie, us Dems DO NOT NEED YOUR HELP ANYMORE. Go away.

[George II]

287. It was last year, but the sentiment hasn't changed at all based on recent statements (I didn't....

...bother spending much time doing a search, not worth it)

[Demsrule86]

273. Republicans are citizens too and have a voice people listen to...they are outsiders

and never help Democrats get elected obviously...the same is true of those who claim to be left but in my opinion are not. No true progressive would have deemed Trump acceptable. No true progressive would have voted third party when the courts are at stake. How are those who claim to be left left but voted for Stein any different than a Republican? They are against the Democratic Party which is the only avenue of progressive policy...and when they criticize the party and turn people against it...they do the GOP's work. No one will want to join a party that is savaged by the right and even the so called left. In some ways such people cause more damage. How often have I listened to the Right repeat their words with a breathless...'such and such said xyz ;even they(supposed progressive) agrees with us (GOP )". I hope all voters who foisted Trump on us never have peaceful day;they literally have blood on their hands and they weren't all Republicans either. Greens can fuck off especially.

[ehrnst]

283. This! (nt)

[Demsrule86]

299. Thanks! I will never understand how those who think it just fine to

attack the Democratic Party somehow don't believe in 'constructive' criticism where Greens are concerned. I mean like, "Stop it Green ass hat"! That is the equivalent of their constructive criticism towards the Democratic Party which they hate more than the Republican party clearly.

[ehrnst]

282. (nt)

[ehrnst]

117. Right. She did win. Remember? It was stolen.

Ignoring what really happened won't get our party anywhere - least of all anywhere progressive.

[George II]

122. Ah, so you DO admit that Stein, Sarandon, and Cornell West are "outsiders". Thanks.

[ehrnst]

145. Let's count the obstacles that were there, that she still overcame

The statistical improbability of a party keeping the White House after two terms.

Misogyny on both the left and right, which was very much on display (especially here on DU).

The full power of the Kremlin propaganda machine, including hacks of voter information in key states.

Voter suppression in key states of prime demographics for Democrats.

She STILL won the popular vote, and got more than any candidate other than Obama.

Blaming the Democratic party for all of that is not how we fix it. Manifesto dogma will do to us what it did to Nader.

[SMC22307]

30. "Our candidate didn't get it done."

Exactly. "The most qualified candidate ever" lost to Donald Fucking Trump.

[Chevy]

34. Please proceed. n/t

[SMC22307]

64. Ignoring Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania proved fatal.

Denying that isn't going to get us to the magic 270 going forward.

[ehrnst]

121. Ignoring voter suppression and voter hacking

will dig us into a hole.

Care to dispute?

[SMC22307]

144. I don't dispute voter suppression.

The warnings re: Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania were there... ignoring those warnings was a colossal mistake.

[ehrnst]

149. I'm not so sure we lost Michigan and Wisconsin

Evidence seems to negate the argument that Democrats didn't get the message out.

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/a8489128/michigan-recount-first-hand-account/

https://www.thenation.com/article/wisconsins-voter-id-law-suppressed-200000-votes-trump-won-by-23000/


Kushner's "Project Alamo"

"To compensate for this, Trump’s campaign has devised another strategy, which, not surprisingly, is negative. Instead of expanding the electorate, Bannon and his team are trying to shrink it. “We have three major voter suppression operations under way,” says a senior official. They’re aimed at three groups Clinton needs to win overwhelmingly: idealistic white liberals, young women, and African Americans."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-27/inside-the-trump-bunker-with-12-days-to-go

[riversedge]

251. I was unaware of Kushner's 'Alamo Project" . Thanks for post.

[ehrnst]

279. Ignoring the lessons of Nader and congressional investigations are also mistakes. (nt)

[QC]

126. But Robby had the numbers!!! He had the numbers!!! n/t

[SMC22307]

148. Data schmata! (n/t)

[ehrnst]

154. Yeah, facts are overrated, aren't they?

Wait - are we talking tea partiers or the far left?

[SMC22307]

157. We're talking ignoring the warning signs.

Or at least I am.

[ehrnst]

159. I'm talking ignoring facts that are currently the subject of several investigations.

Heard of them?

And HRC was projected to win by 3%, which she did.

She won the primaries, she won the debates - as well as the vote.

Am I wrong there? Or are you talking about us ignoring HRC's warning that Cheeto is a Putin stooge?

[SMC22307]

162. Three per cent, but not in the right combination of states.

For if it were in the right combination of states, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Favorable investigation results still won't put her in the White House, but we can learn from the results going forward. We also need to accept that ignoring the Rust Belt was a huge fucking mistake. Tell me how we get to 270 in 2020 without them? And don't say Texas and Georgia, cuz I'll laugh and I'll laugh.

[Motownman78]

170. Florida and North Carolina

will make the rust belt irrelevant.

[SMC22307]

179. Currently, PA/MI/WI 46 and NC/FL 44. Still not enough.

In North Carolina, Obama barely beat McCain in 2008, then lost to Romney in 2012 by about 2%. Trump beat Hillary by almost 4%. The state isn't a given, but it's worth pursuing.

Florida voted for Obama twice, but chose Trump over Hillary. Why? Why does DU trash the Rust Belt and not Florida?

[ehrnst]

275. Why do you trash Democrats on DU, and not those who tried to trash Hillary? (nt)

[scipan]

323. oh, the irony.

[ehrnst]

173. Yes, and voter suppression directed to key states delivered the WH to DT.

Favorable investigation reports will reinforce that she was undermined in ways no other candidate was and STILL got the vote.

That's why many who are angry she won the nomination are trying to downplay them. They don't support the political aspirations of people who depend on her having lost the election fair and square...

In case you missed these links earlier:

https://medium.com/startup-grind/how-the-trump-campaign-built-an-identity-database-and-used-facebook-ads-to-win-the-election-4ff7d24269ac

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/north-carolina-early-voting/506963/

Perhaps the reason that those states went to DT by the sliver that they did wasn't due to her being "the wrong candidate with the wrong message."

https://www.thenation.com/article/wisconsins-voter-id-law-suppressed-200000-votes-trump-won-by-23000/

[R B Garr]

183. +1000, totally nailed it. "They don't support the political aspirations

of people who depend on her having lost the election fair and square..." This a million times! It's exactly what is at work here.

edit-yes about the attacks from every direction, too, and the investigations are already showing this.

[ehrnst]

197. And those "you people are being red-baited!" on the left seem to have

anger management issues that are inflamed by any news on the investigations.

[ehrnst]

128. Yeah, about Michigan....

https://medium.com/@nick_sharp/what-i-saw-at-the-michigan-recount-7c46fdc87243

Also - perhaps your definition of "ignore" is different from mine.

[Ninsianna]

247. This is literally a right wing talking point, denying it's origin and ignoring reality

isn't going to let us correct what happened here. The data shows that the "fatality" was due to vote suppression, failure to count votes and a bunch of people who were pretty badly ratf*ked due to ignorance of how government works, how to figure out the difference between fake news and real news and the utter failure of the press and the GOP's willingness to sacrifice all to advance their regressive agenda.

Denying what actually happened by embracing the line created by the GOP isn't going to get us anywhere.

We have voter suppression to address, hacking to deal with and a lot of extremely stupid people who desperately need education on how basics work on both the left and the right, apparently a great many people simply don't understand civics. That is a problem we need to fix.

[betsuni]

248. +1

[ehrnst]

259. +1000 (nt)

[betsuni]

249. There was no ignoring.

If anyone wants to know what Clinton thinks about what happened in Wisconsin, see this (1:04:53):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017441734

Voter suppression, unreliable info. She did not "ignore" Wisconsin and was doing well in Pennsylvania.

[scipan]

324. She did not visit Wisconsin once since the primary.

Even her campaign manager said they should have focused more on it.

[seaglass]

336. She sent Bernie which wasn't such a bad idea considering he won the primary in WI. Obviously that

wasn't enough.

[ehrnst]

118. Actually, she got more votes than any candidate but Obama.

Care to dispute?

[SMC22307]

130. Is she sitting in the White House?

We're all aware of her winning the popular vote... wasn't enough. And going forward, the Democratic party better understand that. The coasts are not enough!

[ehrnst]

134. The White House was stolen, with the help of Russia, Comey and

and very concerted (and in your case successful) campaign to divide the white, college educated left.

Going forward, the Democratic party better understand that listening to those whose message depends on a "we lost because the candidate you chose was the wrong one" depends on denying what actually happened, will be fatal.

Carpetbagging is what that is.

[SMC22307]

174. I divided the "white, college educated left"?

I AM the "white, college educated left," and supported Sanders in the primary but promoted -- and voted -- for Clinton in the general. Don't fucking accuse me of leading a campaign to divide.

The Democratic party needs to understand that the ECONOMY is voters' #1 concern. That is why we lost the Rust Belt, even though it went for Obama TWICE. Voters felt abandoned and that the system just wasn't working for them. Tell me how we get to 270 without them?

[ehrnst]

176. Please don't be disingenuous.

Last edited Tue Jun 6, 2017, 08:48 AM - Edit history (1)

As you are aware, I was pointing out that you seem to have been a target of successful misinformation. Don't fucking accuse me of creating a straw man that you threw out there. This ain't my first rodeo, hon.

When someone doesn't have a place to pee, that's as important as economic issues. When a woman can't afford another child, and is forced to bear a child, that an economic issue. Is that clearer?

We don't get to 270 telling women, POC and LGBTQs that if an issue doesn't affect a white straight man, we're going to be "flexible" about it. That's going backwards - and it's based on a false narrative of what happened in the election that serves the political ambitions of a very few.

If Democrats abandon the vast majority of their base in some sort of misguided effort to appeal to the shrinking rust belt, no "revolution" will get us to 270. Deny that economic and social justice issues are absolutely intertwined - for the sake of the fragile white nationalist rust belt votes (who will stop listening and start screaming the minute you say "federal," god forbid "socialist&quot and you have not only lied, you have taken an axe to the arc of justice.

Fuck that and the horse it rode in on. Economic parity and universal health care coverage didn't eliminate misogyny, homophobia, xenophobia and nationalism in Europe, so forgive me if I don't buy that line of crap that says, "once white men are earning what they feel they should, they will magically be just fine with abortion, trans people using the bathroom, POC, and immigrants!"

I think that many self-labeled "true progressives" forget that the "halcyon days" of the American economy were built on keeping women and POC out of the good paying jobs. Forgive us if we are somewhat skeptical that simply trashing our social justice agenda in the hope of convincing some deep red Confederate flag waving bigots to elect a bunch of neosocialist politicians will bring economic juju to the US, with none of the discrimination.

What makes Dems strong is our social justice accomplishments - even if the fragile white straight male ego feels left behind. The rest of us have been dealing with economic disparity issues for decades, and are now saying "WTF?" NOW you think it's unacceptable?

Talk about privilege....

[betsuni]

180. +1

[sheshe2]

184. Thank you, ehrnst.

[ehrnst]

198. All in a day's work...

You know how us corporatist Democrats are, always there to crush the rebellion under our stormtrooper boots....

[sheshe2]

204. Ha,,,got it in one!

[SMC22307]

191. Stop pitting voters against one another... it's a losing strategy.

The economy is voters' #1 concern -- ignore those concerns and we lose. (Have you learned nothing from November?) I'm originally from a Rust Belt state and have seen the decline first-hand, decline that has been building for DECADES. PA/MI/WI voted for Obama twice, so don't bother pushing your fantasy that they're all anti-choice, racist, homophobic, misogynistic assholes. PA has a Democratic governor -- were November 2016 voters also a target of "successful misinformation"?

How are you going to reach 270 in 2020? Someone in this thread mentioned NC and Florida. NC voted for Obama, then Romney, then Trump. It can't be counted on. Florida went for Obama twice, but rejected Hillary. Why?

(Is DU now accepting Bernie's message that economic and social justice issues are intertwined? Fascinating! I mean, TRULY fascinating.)

[ehrnst]

195. You can repeat it all you like...

But you cannot separate social justice issues from economics

Unless you are a tea partier or a neosocialist.

This realization of Sanders that his decades old view that social issues detract from economic issues is new. I guess that he finally listened to someone on this issue.

http://feministing.com/2017/04/23/no-bernie-theres-no-economic-justice-without-abortion-access/

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-democrats-identity-politics-231710

http://www.rawstory.com/2013/10/bernie-sanders-tells-ed-schultz-southern-democrats-are-tired-of-being-abandoned-by-the-party/

I'm from the deep midwest, thank you, so I am familiar with them, despite your straw man that I have a "fantasy that they're all anti-choice, racist homophobic assholes." That's called attacking a strawman, BTW...

I'm not the one who has to reach 270 in 2020. I think that pitting voters against each other in the service of a few who have some political ambitions to be built on pitting Democrats against each other won't accomplish it, especially here on DU.

[SMC22307]

205. "I'm not the one who has to reach 270 in 2020."

Well, that's helpful. LOL We're done.

[ehrnst]

256. As helpful as your post. See what I did there? (nt)

[sheshe2]

203. Pretty sure it was DU that DEMANDED

Economic and Social issues were one, not sure that was his priority. His was economic.

[SMC22307]

206. Wrong. Don't try to re-write history -- I was here.

His message was, and is, social and economic justice. Some suggested his focus was economic only in an attempt to denigrate him. DU wasn't having it.

[sheshe2]

208. Wrong.

Link it..to where he said both were equal.

[SMC22307]

211. 1) I'm not your trained monkey and 2) his campaign website addressed...

income and wealth inequality, decent paying jobs, climate change, humane immigration policy, racial justice, affordable housing, women's rights, LGBT equality, tribal nations, veterans, the social safety net, affordable prescription drugs, disability rights, etc.

But you knew that.

[sheshe2]

214. Hmmm

QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!

"SMC22307
211. 1) I'm not your trained monkey and 2) his campaign website addressed...

income and wealth inequality, decent paying jobs, climate change, humane immigration policy, racial justice, affordable housing, women's rights, LGBT equality, tribal nations, veterans, the social safety net, affordable prescription drugs, disability rights, etc.

But you knew that."

.................................

So you got nothing and went off topic. Failed to answer my question.

Ps ...I never asked you to be my trained monkey, that was your very sad add to my asking for a link to your comment.

I just asked for a link, that was all...I don't believe it deserved your snide comment.

[SMC22307]

217. I've got his website. In black and white...

and all sortsa colors. Google it... it's still active.

[sheshe2]

219. So what you are saying...

Quote Quote Quote

"SMC22307
217. I've got his website. In black and white...

and all sortsa colors. Google it... it's still active."

Yet no link for me on his comment that social and economic issues are equal. Got it.

[SMC22307]

225. Bernie's an MLK guy, hence the Ebenezer Baptist Church inviting him to speak...

at a commemorative service this past January:

But if a man doesn’t have a job or an income, he has neither life nor liberty nor the possibility for the pursuit of happiness. He merely exists …

~ MLK

https://poorpeoplescampaign.org/poor-peoples-campaign-1968/

Eugene Robinson: MLK’s prophetic call for economic justice

But what King saw in 1968 — and what we all should recognize today — is that it is useless to try to address race without also taking on the larger issue of inequality. He was planning a poor people’s march on Washington that would include not only African Americans but also Latinos, Native Americans and poor Appalachian whites. He envisioned a rainbow of the dispossessed, assembled to demand not just an end to discrimination but a change in the way the economy doles out its spoils.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-mlks-call-for-economic-justice/2015/01/15/3599cb70-9cfe-11e4-96cc-e858eba91ced_story.html?utm_term=.0123f9e433da

If you disagree with Bernie -- and MLK -- about social and economic justice being intertwined, embrace it. Play your silly little "ranking" game with someone else.

Democrats fully control an historic low of only six states, which is not something to be proud of. Voters' #1 concern is the economy. Ignore PA, WI and MI, states where folks are hurting economically -- lose elections. This *ain't* rocket science.

[sheshe2]

228. Ignore the question all you want.

You did not explain social justice.

...........................................................................................

Most of you have no idea what Martin Luther King actually did

One quote keeps getting posted here over and over. It is one quote, not Martin Luther Kings Life Work.

******************************

by Hamden Rice

Most of you have no idea what Martin Luther King actually did

The topic at hand is what Martin Luther King actually did, what it was that he actually accomplished.

What most people who reference Dr. King seem not to know is how Dr. King actually changed the subjective experience of life in the United States for African Americans. And yeah, I said for African Americans, not for Americans, because his main impact was his effect on the lives of African Americans, not on Americans in general. His main impact was not to make white people nicer or fairer. That's why some of us who are African Americans get a bit possessive about his legacy. Dr. Martin Luther King's legacy, despite what our civil religion tells us, is not color blind.

snip

My father told me with a sort of cold fury, "Dr. King ended the terror of living in the south."

Please let this sink in and and take my word and the word of my late father on this. If you are a white person who has always lived in the U.S. and never under a brutal dictatorship, you probably don't know what my father was talking about.

But this is what the great Dr. Martin Luther King accomplished. Not that he marched, nor that he gave speeches.

He ended the terror of living as a black person, especially in the south.

Read More http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/29/1011562/-Most-of-you-have-no-idea-what-Martin-Luther-King-actually-did

****We keep being told it is about the economy. It is not. It is about Black Lives Matter. It is about the beatings and the lynchings. Trials for 'Reckless Eyeballing' ****

I know you are well aware of this. I wanted to post it again.

Black Lives Matter.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=18885

.........................................

Hey SMC. I am not playing silly little ranking games, you are. Sorry that you crap on Dems so much. Me, I am proud of my party and Martin standing for social issues for people of color.

"But this is what the great Dr. Martin Luther King accomplished. Not that he marched, nor that he gave speeches.
He ended the terror of living as a black person, especially in the south."

[betsuni]

239. In the darkness of night, the cry of a sleepless bird, a rumble of distant thunder.

Flashes of lightning and cold rains driven by stormy winds. The MLK economic justice quote rises from its resting place and moans. RESURRECTED!

[sheshe2]

241. The economic justice quotes validate their story.

Not his focus...theirs. So wrong.

[betsuni]

245. It's like taking one Anthony Bourdain quote about how he likes Indian vegetarian food

to insist he's vegetarian. Except that lugging the MLK economic justice quote around town to distort MLK's life's work is really offensive.

[sheshe2]

246. Bourdain! I love him.

Great analogy. MLK's economic justice is lugged around like a cross on everyone's back but Martins...he never wore it. He walked the walk and talked the talk...never needed anything else....ya know why, he really did have a dream for his people and they were African Americans.

I am not saying that he/ they had no allies white, POC and black...look at the freedom riders. Yet they did it selflessly not to score political points.

[ehrnst]

270. Totally explains why he got their OVERWHELMING support last year.

Opposing the Black Congressional Caucus on basic policies in the Democratic party was another big leap forward for social justice.

[ehrnst]

271. So did Hillary's. And yet she's accused of not really addressing economics - in all it's forms.

Such as getting broadband internet access to rural areas, green jobs, affordable health care, affordable college...

Hey - google it. It's all there.

[ehrnst]

257. I think that you missed Hillary's economic message, as well as many of Bernie's statements

Last edited Fri Jun 2, 2017, 06:52 AM - Edit history (1)

on how we need to downplay social justice issues, as well as medical care specific to women, in order to "reach out to white working class men."

He has a definite hierarchy of importance in his message, and social justice is not at the top.

Not surprising coming from a Senator whose constituency is very homogenous (white and rural) and small. They aren't very worried about those issues, and don't feel a need to elect a Senator that would make those issues a priority.

[scipan]

325. Is that quote supposed to be from Bernie? Because I got nothing when I googled it.

[ehrnst]

340. Here are a couple of quotes

"Let me ask you," Sanders said to National Journal reporter Simon van Zuylen-Wood in 2014, "what is the largest voting bloc in America? Is it gay people? No. Is it African Americans? No. Hispanics? No. What?" The senator answered his own question: "White working-class people."

To win elections, then, or to spark the "political revolution" Sanders has been fomenting from the stump, the trick is to lure true-blue American blue-collar white people back from the wilderness they're wandering in. It's precisely the opposite of the strategy that twice won Barack Obama the presidency."

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/sanders-cluelessness-is-ideological/Content?oid=2804803


"One cause for concern, Sanders explained to Schultz, was seeing many white, working-class voters in “low-income states” like Georgia, Alabama and South Carolina voting against their own best interest.

“These are guys getting hung up on gay marriage issues,” Sanders told Schultz. “They’re getting hung up on abortion issues. And it is time we started focusing on the economic issues that bring us together: Defending Social Security, defending Medicare, making sure that Medicaid is not cut, that veterans’ programs are not cut.”

http://www.rawstory.com/2013/10/bernie-sanders-tells-ed-schultz-southern-democrats-are-tired-of-being-abandoned-by-the-party/

"hung up" he calls it. He says that you can't focus on social justice issues or women's health AND focus on economic issues. As if they are not interconnected...

He thinks we need to stop being so concerned about women's health so we can talk about the issues that white working class men - which abortion and gay marriage seem not to...

[Jakes Progress]

222. No. No it is not.

The economy is not the number one concern of most voters.

To the man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If the economy is your nail, then dividing up income is your hammer.
If you discount the racist, homophobic, misogynistic tendencies of republican voters, you are holding your hammer too tight. Just because people say that they aren't racist doesn't mean they aren't racist. They feel better saying they would love to have a woman president, but they are sure that a blowhard con man will fix the economy better. By your reasoning, they aren't racists or homophobes or misogynists - they are just totally stupid. Any rust-belter who actually trusts a New York real estate con man to do right by the people is probably unemployable due to sheer ignorance.

Information can be people's friend. But only if they check their prejudice when it comes to evaluating the sources.

[SMC22307]

226. Yes. It. Is.

Jobs and the economy.

[sheshe2]

232. Nope.

Wrong.

[scipan]

326. economy the top issue according to Pew.

4. Top voting issues in 2016 election

The economy and terrorism are the top two issues for voters this fall. Overall, 84% of registered voters say that the issue of the economy will be very important to them in making their decision about who to vote for in the 2016 presidential election; slightly fewer (80%) say the issue of terrorism will be very important to their vote. In 2008, far more said the economy would be very important to their vote (87%) than the issue of terrorism (68%).

Interestingly, it shows a major reason why Hillary lost:
http://www.people-press.org/2016/07/07/4-top-voting-issues-in-2016-election/
dated July 7, 2016.

[PotatoChip]

350. Interesting. Thanks (nt)

[ehrnst]

364. The reason that many voters didn't pay attention to Hillary's very progressive economic proposals

was the controlled leaking of selected emails, that didn't include replies and such, in ways that took media and voter attention.

So it wasn't that she lacked a very progressive economic message, it was deliberate distraction from her policies that worked even on the left, as we can see right here on DU.

Her plan:

"The vast majority of families would be able to send children to public colleges and universities tuition-free. Four-year-olds would have universal access to pre-K, and child care would be massively subsidized so as to cap costs at 10 percent of a family’s income. All workers would get 12 weeks paid family leave and 12 weeks paid medical leave, in case they need to care for a new child, a sick family member, or themselves. The child tax credit would be doubled for families with young children and made available to poor families with little earnings.

Eleven million undocumented immigrants would gain a pathway to citizenship. Medicare would be expanded to people as young as 55, and allowed to negotiate down drug prices with pharmaceutical companies, and every state would have a robust public option. All states would expand Medicaid coverage to anyone living underneath the poverty line, and subsidies for health care on the exchanges would be more generous. The government would cover out-of-pocket health costs through the tax code. Federal money would be able to pay for abortions for people with government-paid insurance. Social Security benefits would increase. The minimum wage would be at least $12, maybe $15 an hour, and firms could unionize through card check rather than having to go through elections.

There would be an injection of $500 billion — $275 billion of which comes from federal coffers — into rebuilding roads, highways, mass transit, airports, seaports, broadband networks, electrical grids, water pipes, and other forms of infrastructure. This would be the largest public works push from the federal government since the building of the interstate highway system in the 1950s. Much of that money would go to directly hiring workers, particularly youth in minority communities. The Clinton campaign estimates that the $500 billion would create about 6.5 million jobs, more than half of which come from public money."

Interestingly, your survey is from nearly a year ago - so how could it have shown why Hillary lost the election?

Here is a post election study that busts the myth that Hillary didn't appeal to those who were in fair to poor financial shape:


"And economic hardship among white working-class Americans actually predicted more support for Hillary Clinton, not Trump: Although not highly statistically significant, the survey found that “Those who reported being in fair or poor financial shape were 1.7 times more likely to support Clinton, compared to those who were in better financial shape.” This finding rebukes the common sentiment that poor white Americans came out in droves to put Trump over the top in 2016."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/05/its-time-to-bust-the-myth-most-trump-voters-were-not-working-class/


And you still haven't answered my question on just how Dems are supposed to be "stronger on economics." In what way is Hillary's platform lacking? (see above for those specifics.)

[betsuni]

365. +1

[ehrnst]

258. Hillary addressed all that. (nt)

[Jakes Progress]

310. Just because money is all you care about

doesn't mean others do.

Read. Learn. Self-examine.

I notice you don't address any of my points other than the headline. That could be the problem you have. It takes more than just reading headlines and then popping off. That's how the racist, homophobic, misanthropes elected trump. And how those that don't want to admit they exist helped.

[sheshe2]

231. +1000

Hey...read this Jakes...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029145318#post228

[ehrnst]

254. +1000 (nt)

[Demsrule86]

300. There is no winning if you expect the Greens or the Alt-left bad term as these

folks are not left...but right wing enablers to step up.

[Chevy]

362. +1000 nicely put!

But the rosebuds on twitter will have none of that logic.

[R B Garr]

136. Demonizing Democrats in the middle won't get it done, either. Never again

should that crap be tolerated. You should watch the current news more and see the actual reality of the election results instead of this alternate version.

[ehrnst]

141. It seems that anyone who doesn't walk lockstep with the fringe left is considered "neoliberal"

Our own neosocialist green tea party has decided that they need a party to hijack, after not being able to get enough actual candidates elected.

[R B Garr]

150. Absolutely! They are just another version of fake news when you look at

the lengths they go to demonize Democrats. Good, liberal, lifelong Democrats are being attacked in California, all in the name of a new "group" formed in ----- 2016. Though this is going on all over now. Not a win yet....

[ehrnst]

161. Yeah, I noticed that...

The magic dust that is supposed to suffuse the annointed "true" progressives with all kinds of winning doesn't seem to be working.

[R B Garr]

166. Yup, and they have a very distilled version of reality. It has to fit only one Senator's version.

Although that didn't work nationally, they still stick with it.

[ehrnst]

260. A senator with a small, rural, very white demographic. He speaks for them.

And many who feel that "abortion" and "gays using the bathrooms" is getting far too much attention.

[R B Garr]

342. Yes, and they conveniently ignore that fact about the small or small population, rural

white states. It still makes me wonder how that Senator gets a pass for moving from a populous, diverse state like New York where there was/is plenty of opportunity to promote civil rights to Vermont and then act like Vermont speaks for everyone. No, it doesn't. Vermont also didn't pass single payer and they don't have free college, but no one ever holds that against him as a failure or hypocrisy, which is proof of the favorable media attention he continues to benefit from.

[ehrnst]

348. And brags about never having voted during the civil rights era. (nt)

Last edited Tue Jun 6, 2017, 08:39 AM - Edit history (1)

[SMC22307]

160. Who is demonizing Democrats in the middle?

Ignoring the warning signs of Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin (states Obama carried) proved fatal. I'm a dreaded East Coast liberal and know the blue coasts are not enough to get us to 270. Do the fucking math... that's the reality.

[R B Garr]

163. Yes, ignoring the warning signs of demonizing our candidate in the midwest was

a stupid thing to do. Never again. The reality is not just one that supports fringe talking points about white working class, which is what you really mean by bringing up Michigan, etc.

You should watch the current news -- lots of info about subpoenas and election interference, WikiLeaks targeting Democrats with attacks handed to them. That is the reality.

[ehrnst]

165. +1000. (nt)

[ehrnst]

164. Um... read the OP.

And voter suppression and voter hacking were very much at play in this election.

I'm a dreaded East Coast liberal and know that walking lockstep with the "annointed true progressives" who keep talking about how the Democratic party has "lost it's way" but can't win the state races is not enough to get us to 270. Do the fucking math... that's the reality.

[sheshe2]

235. Shit...

You are a dreaded East Coaster too?

We will stick together~

[ehrnst]

253. {secret handshake} (nt)

[YCHDT]

32. sigh ... another ignore Comey, voter suppression and Russia post ... whatever

[Chevy]

37. Amazing isn't it? n/t

[YCHDT]

41. Yeap, every time I see one of the "we shouldah" comments its always to ignore Comey etc

[Chevy]

44. Or nutty Nina"No one is talking about Russia" n/t

[Demsrule86]

50. Our candidate was attacked both from the right and the left and demonized .

We should have had her back. I don't want to hear any fucking excuses...you vote for the candidate with the "D" next to his / her name. So fuck every person who didn't do that...may your misery be ten fold because you have to live with what you did.

[Chevy]

54. Interesting talking points very familiar. n/t

[BeyondGeography]

56. Yes, and screaming STEIN et al is original

Let's make DU an introspection-free zone, why don't we.

[Chevy]

59. Du is a place to vent as well as discuss

but if you wish to defend those who helped undermine our candidate then feel free to.

[BeyondGeography]

65. They're assholes, but unless you have a plan to eliminate assholes

the Democrats are going to have to come up with a better and more appropriate candidate for the times in 2020 than they did in 2016.

[Chevy]

66. Does it matter? Nothing will be good enough for the purists.

Unless of course we are supposed to kneel to the purists and their stellar losing ways so far.

[BeyondGeography]

68. That's not necessarily the audience

Figure out who our LV's are and get the most votes we can out of them. Some of those who went for Stein last time are persuadable. Identify who they are in the context of your data model and move on.

[ehrnst]

264. Yeah - if they were so angry at Hillary to vote for Stein

then they aren't going to be very happy with the Democratic party.

We need their votes for our candidates, not their sworn loyalty and firstborn.

If they won't even vote for a qualified, extraordinarily intelligent and progressive candidate like Hillary, then I think they are just angry and want to throw a brick through a window.

I think if they need to be sent engraved invitations to vote for the most progressive platform ever, then they are more trouble than they are worth. And many would likely say, "Well you're just changing to get us on board, you pivoting corporatist."

[ehrnst]

199. Better? Not really possible in the current field. More appropriate?

You mean that they stand when they pee? Sadly that is likely true.

We had the best, and we'll have to settle for less, but with a dick.

[sheshe2]

242. OMG.

+ infinity.

[George II]

202. "They"? Are you a Democrat?

[sheshe2]

243. Interesting question, George.

Doubt you will get an answer.

[sheshe2]

236. There was nothing wrong with Hillary other than 30 years of RW bashing.

Stop it!

[ehrnst]

276. You're leading the way... (nt)

[Demsrule86]

77. Sarandon owns as do those who voted for a gorilla, stayed home or for that asshat Siberian

Jill...but you know who has to deal with it...not the rich witches...like Sarandon or Stein...nope it's us and the poor, LGBTQ and all the other that these losers abandoned in their quest for a revolution and some are still at it...our revolution for example is primarying Democrats...I blocked them...not one dime will these people get of my money. They should check their fucking privilege; while we can undo much that Drumpie does, the environmental damage will be long lasting and difficult to fix. And we will lose millions of green jobs...this country will never recover.

[treestar]

107. All of those states were very close

and the margin less than the number of votes Stein got.

[MiddleClass]

315. Exactly, and those purists

Deserve and should be burdened with the blame.

I do not want to alienate these ass holes just nudge them to trigger some self reflection.

Consider yourself what ever you decide, it's a free country,

but wear your choice, you're free to make that choice, you also must deal with the consequences of that choice.

And if you voted for Stein, don't blame anybody else, own what you did, and why you did what you did.

Let your conscience be your guide.

That's all I'm saying

[Loki Liesmith]

105. Such a stupid debate.

Of course Sarandon owns a piece of this.

Of course Hillary should have run a better campaign in the upper Midwest.

Of course Bernie should have dropped out earlier.

Of course we should have taken pro-trump polling more seriously.

Own your shit people. Own it.

[certainot]

135. what's really fucked is we let 88 'liberal' universities support 257 limbaugh/trump stations

that do denial all day long.

those unis need to be protested for the absurd part they played in this

88 universities that help Republicans deny global warming and minimize protests

that's the only reason trump was even close and instead the left analyzes politics like studying fish without water, get their internet asses kicked by a few hundred ignorant think tank scripted assholes on 1000 radio stations and then they blame their reps for not being liberal enough etc.

or they blame a few people like sarandon, etc

trump STUDIED talk radio in 2014 according to gabe sherman april 3, 2016, and most of the anti hillary anti dem russian trolling was based on months and years of talk radio lies (benghazi, emails, clinton foundation), and dems don't even fucking poll for it.

[George II]

133. And what would you propose differently? Anything?

[sheshe2]

237. just complain....

no ideas.

[onit2day]

140. What about Jill Stein. You suffer from blame damage

[ehrnst]

167. Jill Stein had a whole lot to gain by trying to undermine Democrats and their platform.

Maybe more than we know, now with the Russia revelations coming out.

[musette_sf]

194. + 1

[LenaBaby61]

172. "Our candidate didn't get it done."

I STILL can't believe that some of you guys don't seem to understand and maybe not believe it, but the 2016 GE was no ordinary election. You said "Our candidate didn't get it done." Hillary had her challenges--no doubt about it, and Comey's bombshell REALLY didn't help 11 days out from November 8th.

Again, 2016's GE was NOT normal.

For starters, there were millions of Dems that were thrown off the voting rolls IE: Voter-crosschecked, voter-purged off of voting rolls in states like MI. WI. PA, AZ. NC--states that tRumputun HAD to win in order to take the White House.

Crosscheck Removed 450K Voters in MI, 270 K in AZ and 590 K in NC!!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/11/14/1599330/-Crosscheck-Removed-450K-Voters-in-MI-270-K-in-AZ-and-590-K-in-NC

Our voting institutions are extremely vulnerable:

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/democracy/reports/2016/11/11/292322/voter-suppression-laws-cost-americans-their-voices-at-the-polls/

Now come 2018, GOP-led Voter-suppression will be on steroids, especially in the state of WI. where Scott Walker will be making sure that "new" voter ID standards/laws will make it even more difficult for people who lean left to vote, and even IF Dems found compelling evidence of GOP voter-suppression and presented it to beauguard, do you really think he'd investigate it in earnest or in a timely fashion/manner to benefit Dems? PLUS on top of all that, you'll again have the ruskies spreading disinformation, fake news, Dem lies/disinformation in key states, again trying to depress Dem turn out, and they'll again also target specific African-Americans & women voters. You best believe they'll do that and more to get keep thuglicans in power. Per Clint Watts--Cyber-security expert amongst other things), the ruskie never stopped meddling in our internal affairs, and under THIS crooked, ruskie-controlled DOJ, they'll do what they need to do to keep their dumb, mentally-declining, fat, lying, treasonous puppet tRumputin in the WH--providing that he lasts to 2020.

Back to what you said originally, "Our candidate didn't get it done." If Bernie had run, he'd have faced the SAME voter-suppression and ruskie interference and MORE, so it wouldn't have mattered WHO the Dems had run, no matter their message--Dems could have dig up FDR: They weren't gonna win with all that extracurricular crap that went along with the 2016 GE. In 2018 and 2020, I don't know if Dems will be able to pick up many if ANY Senate seats, or make a dent in that gerrymandered Congress, or get close to winning the White House--as long as the GOP continues on with "encouraged" voter-suppression, and as long as putin is allowed to keep meddling in our elective process, can continue blackmailing tRumputin and maybe even many in the GOP-controlled congress putin wins. As long as putin can keep this country's people fighting each other, as long as he can spread disinformation, lies, change laws which will disenfranchise Dem voters, keep us off-balance as a country, keep enough Americans voting against it's own best interests, putin wins.

HOW Dems overcome the GOP's voter-suppression efforts on 'roids & how they overcome "encouraged" & continued ruskie interference/disinformation in 2018 & 2020, I haven't a CLUE.

[vi5]

304. I've learned to just save my breath.

There are far too many folks on here who refuse at any point to place any culpability on anyone within the Democratic party for losing to such an insane, racist, sexist, clown. Even conceding their point that those people bear a majority of responsibility (they don't), how pathetic is it that Susan Sarandon, Cornel West, and Jill Stein are more persuasive to ANYBODY than our own candidate and her spokespeople.

Don't you know certain people and contingents of the party can never fail, they can only be failed?

[vi5]

333. People in Ohio and Pennsylvania absolutely worship Cornel West and Susan Sarandon.....

It's true! I've lived in both places and they are all anyone could talk about. They hung on their every word.

It's clear that if anything impacted voters in those states with high rural populations it was an actress famous in the 80's and an Ivy League professor. Nothing else. Nothing else at all.

[Demsrule86]

346. I live in Ohio...West and Sarandon are not worshiped I assume you

are being sarcastic...but the constant criticism of the Democratic party combined with the promise of jobs by Trump ...all lies...is why Ohio went for Trump. Criticizing the Democratic Party elects Republicans.

[vi5]

351. I am being very sarcastic.

These people are set up as boogeymen, in an effort to absolve the actual people in charge of the party and the campaigns and the elections of any responsibility. And it's absurd on it's face that the people being mentioned, who are the personification of "coastal elites" would have any effect or impact on voters in rural and rust belt states.

Yeah, sure. Cornel West bears all the responsibility for us losing Ohio and PA, but the DNC and HIllary's campaign managers and media strategists and the people with all the money in the world at their disposal and whose only job it was was to get her elected have zero responsibility or culpability.

It's the type of response and behavior I get from my children when they do something wrong or fail or whatever, and then we try and talk about it and learn from it. "But......Johnny did worse than I did.........but the teacher wasn't being fair......" or whatever else.

The thing is that I don't see anybody saying that the media and other negativity and perception of the party doesn't influence things and have a negative effect. But I see A LOT of people saying that the party itself and the people who were put in charge of this election bear no responsibility.

[Demsrule86]

352. So it is a Democratic bashing thing...criticize the Democratic party as happened

in 16 ...where the Party was ruthlessly criticized from the right and the left including by Sarandon (may she burn in hell) and West (him too)...and then Republicans like Trump are elected. Vote Democratic and stop with the 'fix the party' BS if you please. There is no time assuming there is any sort of fix that will be universally accepted. I prefer a big tent inclusive approach. Any so called 'fixing' will never be enough anyway for Democratic Party detractors...who should just admit they are Russian trolls,Greens, Libertarian or out and out GOP types... and move on. You want progressive policy...vote Democrat always and vote in every election including midterms.

You want change than join the Party and work for change within...be the change you want. If one is not a Democratic but something else...my general opinion...is he/she should have no say in party politics. a non-Democrat should not vote in primaries (closed primaries stop GOP meddling), criticize Democrats in any misguided attempt to have a say in something they don't belong to. One joins the party or if not... such people should leave it alone unless they have a burning desire to elect Republicans. I think some of the folks do. You say, the people mentioned don't bare responsibility, but they do...their words helped take Hillary Clinton down...the constant criticism demonized her and destroyed her candidacy in a number of states...I despise them all and never listen to any of them...they are Trump supporter and Republicans enablers.

[vi5]

356. Again, avoiding the issue.....

We lost because we lost in states where the people you and others on here are fixated with have zero influence. Zero. The idea that Hillary lost Ohio, and PA, and Michigan because of the influence of Susan Sarandon and Cornel West rather than anything the party itself did or how they chose to campaign or how they chose to allocate their funds and resources and the assumptions that they relied on is absurd.

I criticize the party from within as someone who has voted for and campaigned and donated in in every Democratic primary, and for the Democrat in every general election since 1986. Including 2016. And I saw a lot of failures from within our infrastructure and with our tactics and with our approach that contributed WAY more toward us losing the election than some professor that almost nobody has heard of and an actress who hasn't worked regularly in almost 25 years.

Go ahead. Keep thinking that. Keep obsessing over has beens with zero influence and zero forums, and shun all responsibility from our party and it's leaders. Let's see how that keeps working out for us. It will be perfect because it requires nothing on our part. No change, no responsibility, no introspection. Just blame and projections. Why wouldn't we go that route.

Edit: Aaaaaaah. Never mind. I realize what's going on now. There is a "Don't keep refighting the primary" rule in effect so "Cornel West and Susan Sarandon" are code/shorthand for something else on this site and why I keep seeing such an obsession over them. Got it.

[moda253]

308. So tired of this garbage.

Our candidate didn't get it done. I'll start there, and stay there a long time before I bring up Cornel freakin' West.

I am so sick and tired of reading this bullshit. Every time someone says that "Our Candidate didn't get it done" they give cover to all the bullshit that went on in this election. You give them a scapegoat so that they can just "blame our candidate that didn't get it done" instead of putting Interstate Crosscheck at the forefront of what was fucked up about this election. When you say "she was the wrong candidate" you excuse Russian involvement and interference in our elections. You disregard the obvious and well known voter suppression initiatives all across our country.

Stop spreading their bullshit. I get it you didn't like her or you would have done things differently. But stop giving republicans cover to say that the reason that Democrats lost is because of the candidate.... Because that shit just isn't true.

[delisen]

328. and the 1000 Democratic seats lost since 2010 "should" have been won,

and that governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker, should never have won two terms, much less survive a recall, get re-elected, and now be running for his third term. But he did, didn't he?

It's Gore's fault. it's Kerry's fault, it's Clinton's fault----framing it that way means no one else ever has to change. In fact we can ignore facts, shout slogans about the evil bankers, and the evil corporations, and scream jobs! jobs! jobs! and never educate ourselves to geopolitical realities; we can pretend that politics only matters in the 4 year presidential glamour cycle.

We can sit on the collective American couch, spilling all our information out for free to feed the international disinformation vultures and let them digest it and regurgitate it against us, and then pretend it doesn't matter because we are too smart to be duped.

It is not just themes-rabid of Trump voter who revel in ignorance--it is also large numbers of self-styes progressives.

[onit2day]

142. She was carrying years of bad propaganda baggage

[ehrnst]

168. ... about Hillary, in her purse... ready to whip out. (nt)

[YCHDT]

31. No, its not ... they helped Cheeto ... and that's still a very bad thing

[pnwmom]

69. The votes Jill Stein got could have flipped the election,

if those progressives had voted for the only progressive with a real chance to win -- Hillary Clinton.

Other factors also hurt Hillary, but Jill's votes alone would have been enough to make the difference.

[BeyondGeography]

72. Stein's votes could have put us over the top in MI and WI, but not in PA

Hillary had an inarguably piss-poor strategy for those states. I'll start with that as the main reason why we lost there.

[SFnomad]

85. Re: Stein's votes ... but not it PA

If continuing to lie makes it easier for you to sleep at night, go right ahead. But facts say otherwise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Pennsylvania,_2016

Donald Trump - 2,970,733
Hillary Clinton - 2,926,441
Jill Stein - 49,941

Now, I don't know what kind of math you use, but ....
Clinton + Stein > tRump
2,926,441 + 49,941 > 2,970,733

If Stein voters had voted for Clinton ... she would have beat tRump by more than 5,000 votes.

[BeyondGeography]

89. My bad...but if you think that rates with Nader's 95k votes in FL in 2000, knock yourself out

Hillary visited PA at least a dozen times and still lost. Apparently, she either didn't visit the optimal places or they just weren't that into her. Capturing 100% of Stein's votes barely gets her a win and you think Stein cost her PA. Alrighty then.

[SFnomad]

91. Quit making more excuses

The comment was if Stein's voters had voted for Clinton ... that Clinton would be the President. Those are the facts. Your deflection won't change that.

[BeyondGeography]

100. Oh, that's rich

You're clapping for Tinkerbell and I'm the one making excuses.

[ehrnst]

280. At least they're not clapping for 'trickle down social justice"

which is as likely to work as trickledown economics."

[pnwmom]

93. No one said a word about Nader. This is on Jill Stein. nt

[ehrnst]

277. Well that's a new one. I heard she "ignored" PA...

And she lost by slivers that were absolutely winnable without voter suppression.

Alrighty then.

[pnwmom]

94. Thank you, SFnomad, for providing the #'s. n/t

[sheshe2]

238. Thank you!

[ehrnst]

261. OMG! Data to support your claim! (nt)

[PotatoChip]

353. You forgot to put Gary Johnson in the mix. He had 146,715 votes in Pa.

Those votes would have gone to Trump.

[SFnomad]

357. Who said anything about Johnson not running? Oh that's right, more deflection n/t

[PotatoChip]

358. I'd like to know too. It certainly didn't come from me.

In any event, my point remains: You forgot to add Gary Johnson's vote totals in your math. That is a huge omission because w/out Johnson, Trump would have won Pa by even higher numbers. Johnson got nearly 3 times more votes than Stein.

[SFnomad]

359. Like I said, more deflection from you. Maybe you should go look up the original post that started

this part of the conversation ... which mentions NOTHING about Gary Johnson and has no need to.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9145776

The votes Jill Stein got could have flipped the election, if those progressives had voted for the only progressive with a real chance to win -- Hillary Clinton.

Other factors also hurt Hillary, but Jill's votes alone would have been enough to make the difference.

[sheshe2]

187. Why are you bashing Hillary all over this thread?

Stop, just stop!

[SMC22307]

209. Where is the wrath toward Libertarian Gary Johnson?

Michigan
Johnson 3.6%
Stein 1.1%

Wisconsin
Johnson 3.6%
Stein 1.1%

Pennsylvania
Johnson 2.4%
Stein .8%

We should never have lost those states, especially to Donald Fucking Trump!

[progressoid]

220. Yup. n/t

[QC]

223. He's a rightist and thus less likely to be criticized here.

Funny how that works.

[HughBeaumont]

297. Eh, Johnson votes were likely never going to Hillary.

Some Johnson voters are further right-leaning than Trump.

Thing is though, Third Parties are always going to be there. If the candidacy had a strong-enough message and the enthusiasm that Barack Obama had, then we shouldn't worry about third parties nor gaining electoral votes against the worst candidate in election history. Frankly, choosing a glib unheard-of-outside-DU Tim Kaine as a VP didn't do her any favors.

It's not so much our economic message that needs to be fine tuned . . . I want to know what anyone's going to do to combat offshore outsourcing, worker displacement via automation and corporate greed. Encouraging entrepreneurship isn't a plan since success by that route depends on multiple factors (luck, sales skills and other people's disposable income being the most of it). Expecting specious individual solutions to solve long-standing structural problems just isn't going to cut it.

[ehrnst]

263. What is it about Hillary that irritates you most? (nt)

[Fantastic Anarchist]

110. This Left-bashing is lame and old.

[ehrnst]

131. Speak for yourself. Crushing all dissent from a particular manifesto

isn't progressive in any sense of the word...

Makes a very dynamic protest, but doesn't pan out into a movement or a successful campaign, as we saw in the primaries.

Here's some history for you on another candidate who made that mistake.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_next_20/2016/09/ralph_nader_and_the_tragedy_of_voter_as_consumer_politics.html

[Fantastic Anarchist]

186. We're not talking about Ralph Nader ...

...and I'm not going to fall for that red getting.

The OP has a funny way of persuading anyone to come aboard. OP would rather whine and blame other people rather than look at how the party can improve.

If you think OP is doing you any favors, I feel sorry for you and those who think it's productive to yell at potential and fellow allies of the Left.

[SMC22307]

213. There's ZERO discussion of how the party can improve.

I keep asking how we're going to get to 270 in 2020, and only one has (somewhat) answered: NC and GA.

Democrats fully control only SIX states, an historic low. Some in this thread seem totally blind to that. The party is fine because Hillary won by 3%... lalalalala!

[ehrnst]

269. Um... Moving farther into social justice issues.

Last edited Fri Jun 2, 2017, 07:06 AM - Edit history (1)

That's been stated here, and some in this thread seem totally blind to that.

The party has lost it's soul because the White House was stolen from the candidate that won the vote...lalalala!

And Obama won over Romney by only 3%, having lost 54% of the white vote. I didn't hear any gnashing of teeth about how the party had lost touch with the White working class. Racism was mentioned as the culprit, I recall.

[scipan]

329. we need to be stronger on the economy.

[ehrnst]

339. Why should that be different?

When LGBTQs can be fired for being such, that is an economic issue.

And unwanted pregnancy that a woman is forced to carry to term is an economic issue.

When there is a school to prison pipeline for young men of color, that is an economic issue.

You can't separate that from minimum wage issues, or social safety net issues.

[ehrnst]

341. So, tell me. How do Democrats "get stronger" on the economy?

Specifically.

[ehrnst]

349. You mean like this?

"The vast majority of families would be able to send children to public colleges and universities tuition-free. Four-year-olds would have universal access to pre-K, and child care would be massively subsidized so as to cap costs at 10 percent of a family’s income. All workers would get 12 weeks paid family leave and 12 weeks paid medical leave, in case they need to care for a new child, a sick family member, or themselves. The child tax credit would be doubled for families with young children and made available to poor families with little earnings.

Eleven million undocumented immigrants would gain a pathway to citizenship. Medicare would be expanded to people as young as 55, and allowed to negotiate down drug prices with pharmaceutical companies, and every state would have a robust public option. All states would expand Medicaid coverage to anyone living underneath the poverty line, and subsidies for health care on the exchanges would be more generous. The government would cover out-of-pocket health costs through the tax code. Federal money would be able to pay for abortions for people with government-paid insurance. Social Security benefits would increase. The minimum wage would be at least $12, maybe $15 an hour, and firms could unionize through card check rather than having to go through elections."

Because that's exactly what Hillary ran on.

“I think a lot of Clinton’s proposals are very much a step in the direction of a Nordic-style or social democratic welfare state,” Lane Kenworthy, a sociologist at the University of Arizona and author of Social Democratic America, says.



https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/3/13318750/hillary-clinton-vision-government

[Fantastic Anarchist]

285. Exactly. They can bash all of these fantasy boogymen to their peril.

Instead of looking to be constructive and to improve the party by including everyone who has progressive values, they seem ill intent to bash those they deem "extremists." It would probably be a better strategy to continue to convince those allies on the Left, who already feel left out of the process, or they feel their voice isn't heard, to hear their voices, to include them, instead of bash them.

Eh, but that's just my opinion.

[Demsrule86]

301. It seems to me that the 'improvements' you seek would doom us to

perpetual losses...why not turn your attention to the GOP...so much worse than the Democratic party you know.

[ehrnst]

267. Ralph Nader's failure is a cautionary tale (warning sign) that we need to learn from right now.

Because many here seem to be in danger of not learning that.

So are you an ally, or a "potential ally?" Just curious.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

289. I'm an ally, as I've said in my other responses to you.

I chose the pragmatic route and voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012, the Democrats in 2010 and 2014 and Hillary Clinton in 2016. I understood the nature of what we are up against. However, I can understand fellow-travelers that may be hesitant to throw their lot in with the Democrats, because I have to admit, they have let us down a few times - and no, it doesn't matter if you agree or not, it's a matter of perception. You can shout down anyone who may disagree with you, but I'd rather find the common ground, recruit them, let them know the gravity of the situation that faces us, and then we can tackle the details when progressives have the White House and Congress.

However, your posts and those of the OP are making that increasingly difficult. It is not a winning strategy. I came on board of my own volition because I feel an incremental step is definitely better than nothing. However, there may be people who would like to take the path I did, see posts as yours, and just say "fuck it," and sit out.

With the continued Left-bashing around here, I can certainly understand them making that choice.

[Demsrule86]

302. If people vote for the Democrat, we win...if they don't we can't.

It is very simple...and there is nothing wrong with the Democratic party...so I suggest you turn you attention to 18 or 20.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

317. The Democratic Party could definitely use improvement.

I voted for the Democrats (because I wanted to be pragmatic and work on the details later). Others may not vote for the Democrats without their vote needs to be earned.

It's hubris to think the party couldn't be improved. Instead of turning people away who may value the same issues you do, you may want to reach out to them and explain why they should throw their lot in (and not vote Green or another third party). Votes are not automatic, and you shouldn't just assume they are. I have a few disagreements with the Democratic party, but I put those aside because I recognized the importance of the last several elections. I'm reasonable. Others may need to be worked on, and so far, bashing them seems to not be working.

[Demsrule86]

332. Keep attacking the party and see where that gets you...perhaps a second term for Trump?

Now is that what you really want. You do understand that while you think everyone agrees with you I am reasonably certain many don't...so how shall we change the party...to make you happy or others? I don't buy it.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

335. Saying that the Democratic Party needs improvement is attacking the party?

Wow. What kind of world do you live in?

[Chevy]

306. Come aboard what? There is no intention

of the Sarandon ,Stein left to come aboard anything unless it's only on their terms. This is a a site for Democrats to defend Democrats none of those carnival barkers are Democrats. So spare us your tears.

[Cha]

132. 3rd party Liars are getting called out.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

189. Nice to see one being so cavalier about this on the day that Trump put the death penalty on polar

bears, manatees, Florida Panthers, Tigers, etc. This is DEADLY serious. We cannot afford another 4 years of neglect to the environment.

[Kimchijeon]

224. Right, blame other lefties

That's exactly what the "powers that be" love, for all of us to bash each other , divide and conquer. I'm not fallin' for it.

[Demsrule86]

345. I don't consider anyone who didn't vote for the only person who could stop Trump

progressive or a 'lefty'. They enabled the right.

[SHRED]

2. They are a part of it yes

Not all of it.

[arthritisR_US]

62. My thoughts as well. nt

[adigal]

137. Absolutely. The OP is making an angry, simplistic statement

How many times did Hillary go to Michigan? To Wisconsin? Huge mistake which many of us saw coming before the election.

And don't forget Russia.

[H2O Man]

3. silly

[Madam45for2923]

6. ???

[Chevy]

15. Very profound. n/t

[cyberswede]

312. yep

[Fantastic Anarchist]

319. Extremely silly. nt

[GBizzle]

4. Jill Stein's a Russian puppet too. Hopefully she sees the inside of a prison cell.

Don't forget, she was at the same table with Mike Flynn and Vladimir Putin - and she refused to release her tax returns.

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. Sarandon would say that this will make people aware of climate change and thats a good thing!

[Chevy]

11. Yes Vive La Revolution. n/t

[Demsrule86]

53. And she would be wrong...the damage to the environment by Cheetoh and his minions

is incalculable. Putting the pipe-line through is enough to poison drinking water for millions...Susan can fuck herself...and then shut her mouth. Here in Ohio the Great Lakes agreement is gone...how long before lake Erie burns again...don't even mention that witch's name. She makes me want to vomit.

[ehrnst]

265. Turd polishing, but yes. (nt)

[Gothmog]

7. Agreed

[SalviaBlue]

8. No they don't. The cheating Cons and the Russians own it.

[Chevy]

10. Whatever helps you sleep at night. n/t

[GBizzle]

12. Jill Stein definitely falls into the "Russians" category.

[jodymarie aimee]

16. SB, you are 1,000 correct

eating our own gets us what....zillions of seats lost since 2010.....the whiners always got to find someone to blame. Shame.

[Chevy]

17. Whiners huh?

Please they are not our own. They never were.

[wildeyed]

33. Because Democrats did not turnout in 2010.

They didn't feel like it because Obama hadn't changed everything in two years. Wah! And that gave GOP free reign to gerrymander us into oblivion. Most of those 'lost' seats are lost to redistricting.

[Chevy]

39. Correct. n/t

[JHan]

73. I don't think any lessons have been learned among some about 2010.

Yes, choose a census year to sit it out because reasons. I enjoy calling out those on the "left" who enable GOP hegemony. There isn't a single Dem I know who won't admit to flaws, but I'll also point to the efforts of people masquerading as allies who end up making things worse for everyone.

[wildeyed]

103. I know people who voted for Nader who are sincerely, deeply sorry.

We all make mistakes. Some people learn from them, others, not so much.

[JHan]

116. I know I'm just in really bitter mood today.

[wildeyed]

119. Me too.

Clinton bashing has begun again because she had the AUDACITY to have an opinion in public! And now Trump's climate deal exit

[SMC22307]

227. Obama attributed the loss to young people and minorities not turning out.

He was right.

Your pony "argument" about Democrats wanting everything changed in two years is bullshit.

The GOP was whipped into a frenzy over Yukon Barbie's death panels and the chill-the-fuck-out-he's-got-this crowd didn't fight back.

[wildeyed]

281. How does your statement in anyway conflict with mine?

Democrats did not turn out. You just said it differently.

[Cha]

51. You're in denial.. the LIES they told that Hillary

was no better than trump got a Lot of Suckers voting for stein in critical states.

And, yes.. the Russians and comey own it, too.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

106. What do you think about DU pundits who dragged ...

... Hillary's name through the mud in 2008 and called her an unfit liar that should never hold elected office?

Our resident fox news host/guest called her every name in the book.

I think people like that are partly responsible for her 54% unfavorable among registered voters.

I supported her in 2008. I remember some of the shit that was thrown around back then.

People like Keith Olbermann who accused her of trying to foment assassination of Barak Obama during the 2008 campaign are probably more responsible for her loss than any actor.

As are some of her current super fans who accused her and bill of racism in 2008

They were part of a long term marketing campaign. They built that. Yes indeed

[Cha]

109. You poor thing.. you have to move on.. President Obama,

Hillary and I did.

[SMC22307]

229. LOL!

That was good. Move on, HSB, just move on!

[SalviaBlue]

311. If I am in denial, so are you since you just agreed with me.

I am not a fan of these "pump up the hatred of the far left" threads that are periodically posted.

It is exactly what the Russians and the Cons who enabled them want to happen.

I am no fan of Jill Stein. I have always liked Cornell West, even though his views are more extreme than mine. Susan Sarandon... whatever.

I dispise the republiCons. They are the enemy.

I want to focus on them.

[Cha]

313. You're denying stein and sarandon own a

chunk of trump.

I am not.

[SalviaBlue]

316. No I am not denying that. The post said they "own this."

That would imply that they caused trump to become president. They did not. The Russians and the Cons who enabled them did. I think it is important to always remember this:

The Cons are the enemy of our democracy.

I do understand that there are people who enjoy these threads; hence the 300+ replies. I don't usually participate in this particular game, but since I did this time I want to be clear as to what I mean.

I don't think it is helpful to keep going after the far left leaning among us. There is a spectrum of political beliefs in this country from far right to far left. The far right Cons are the clear and present threat. We need to focus on this.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

318. You have a friend in me.

I'm also sick of the Left-bashing around here. I got your back, SalviaBlue.

Thanks for your support.

[SalviaBlue]

327. Thanks

Back at ya

[Stinky The Clown]

13. Rec

[oasis]

14. Not only 100% own it, they saw it coming.

They can write themselves out of being part any serious political movements. By screwing over Hillary, they've screwed themselves.

[yallerdawg]

23. Yeah, they said they would never support Hillary.

Lots of noseless "progressives" running around today.

[Chevy]

27. Twitters wilted roses. n/t

[killbotfactory]

20. Yep. It's the people with the least power and influence.

[Chevy]

24. lol lol lol n/t

[DanTex]

28. All three of them have influence, much more than you or I or most other Americans.

And they used their influence to get Trump elected. Yes, they own it.

[killbotfactory]

40. I disagree with them, but they didn't swing the election.

Their idea that for things to get better, things have to get worse, is asinine. But If they have that much power, to tank an election, maybe you listen to their concerns and not insult them.

[DanTex]

46. We don't know if they swung the election, but we do know they did everything in their power to.

And not just those three individuals alone, I mean the far left generally, which since 2000 has made it its mission to get as many Republicans elected as possible.

[killbotfactory]

147. Do you expect the left to applaud democrats when they move right?

Because on economic and foreign policy issues, moving right has been the democratic playbook since reagan.

[DanTex]

156. Sadly, I expect the far left to keep helping Republicans get elected like they have since 2000.

And in so doing, they help move the country's policies to the right, exacerbate income inequality, contribute to climate change, lock in right-wing justices, etc.

[killbotfactory]

210. So the candidate with the billion dollar warchest was bested by grumpy outspoken leftists

Bull fucking shit.

[DanTex]

215. They certainly contributed to Trump's victory. But, true, there were other factors (Russia, Comey).

[ehrnst]

266. Do you expect Democrats to applaud when a candidate dismisses Planned Parenthood

and the Black Congressional Caucus?

That's no "revolution."

[Demsrule86]

303. Actually Sen. Sander has endorsed two right to life candidates ...one in

Nebraska (lost) and one in Virginia...I call that a move to the right, and it was applauded by those I see posting stuff about how to fix the DNC...so I guess it depends on who moves...face reality...if we have a 50 state strategy, we will get Democrats who are center at best in red states.

[Chevy]

47. Just like Nader they are getting what they deserve. n/t

[Paladin]

21. +1000.

To hell with every one of them.

[Expecting Rain]

22. Correct.

Only there is one obvious name missing from the generalized "ilk."

[Chevy]

25. Yes we left that one off

to avoid the temper tantrums.

[Cha]

45. The inevitable

you know what.

Mahalo, Chevy

[Bleacher Creature]

35. May they carry it with them to their graves. NT

[ismnotwasm]

36. They participated in the constant Hillary/Democrat bashing

I keep saying---it took a LOT to bring her down. It wasn't easy. She made mistakes. But ultimately it wasn't her fault. I've never seen a candidate having to fight from as many fronts as she did.

[Chevy]

43. Short memories. n/t

[bettyellen]

57. This is the truth - they normalized Trump with their false equivalency bullshit all day long....

[Cha]

42. They sure as hell do own a chunk o trump and therefore a CHUNK of the END

of the Paris Agreement.

Freaking self-centered ELISTIST ASSHOLES.

[DefenseLawyer]

48. The Falcons should have run the ball in the second half. n/t

[Chevy]

49. Pretty much n/t

[YCHDT]

58. The Falcons didn't have their playbook hacked either

[DefenseLawyer]

63. The game is still over. And they still lost. n/t

[YCHDT]

88. ... we agree, in that game no one cheated in this game someone did blaming her loss on someone elses

... cheating is not on the up and up

[Cattledog]

55. Third party votes sung this election...just look at the numbers in PA, MI, & WI.

May they, and all their supporters rot in hell.

[Thrill]

60. Wait until they cut Medicaid.

I don't want to hear shit from any of them

[arthritisR_US]

61. They definitely own a big stake in this, jmo. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

74. Stein's a Russian agent, Sarandon is a naive fool, and Cornel West is a fanatic

They cannot be unfucked.

[Cha]

114. sarandon's not naive.. she's a FUBAR FOOL

[BadgerMom]

75. Stein was the Green candidate

Green? Nope. She was Putin's, too. She was a spoiler in this election and of the planet. May she rot.

[WoonTars]

76. Bullshit. Not campaigning in Mi, WI and PA did her in...

...hell even the DNC is saying that after she crapped all over them recently...

You want to blame someone, blame the M$M who gave Dump BILLIONS of dollars of free advertising during his campaign to spread his simplistic bullshit to the stupid and the gullible and never holding him to account...

Those folks are more to blame than a couple of left-wing blowhards...

[SHRED]

78. Yep

[Demsrule86]

79. excuses for the Green types...Jillie made a point to campaign in those areas. And

there were enough 'lost votes in Detroit' to overturn the results...a fair amount of cheating went on but just like 2000...the so call far left (greens) spoiled the election...fuck them.

[tiredtoo]

86. The greens got minuscule votes in Michigan, Libertarians got a measurable number. NT

[Demsrule86]

152. they got enough to overturn the election results...fuck that witch.

I hope she rots.

[tiredtoo]

155. The Libertarians got 3 times as much as the greens. Bernie won the primary

Maybe we should just fuck everyone and hope they rot.

[tiredtoo]

83. yep

[Snotcicles]

120. Kris Kobach did more damage then all of them combined. nt

[ehrnst]

171. Can you post a link to the DNC saying "she crapped all over them recently?"

I haven't seen that. Can you share?

[Fantastic Anarchist]

182. +1,000,000

[Chevy]

307. Ahh the familiar talking points n/t

[Tanuki]

80. Jeffrey Sachs, too.

[bhusar]

81. So does Oliver Stone

But he has his Putin doc to support.

[tiredtoo]

82. Divide and conquer

Worked well for the Republicans for years.

[Kleveland]

84. What did Jerry Garcia say?

Something like:

"Choosing the lesser of two evils, still gets you evil!"

The relevancy stuns me at this point....

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

87. All three are unrepentant that Trump won

Sarandon was on Colbert saying how great it is that the election of Trump was stirring people to action. West had a major conniption a couple of weeks ago when Bill Maher called him out on the false equivalency between Hillary and Trump.

[sheshe2]

190. That is because they lost nothing.

We did. They are all very very rich. They were just playing their games.

[That Guy 888]

90. Keep pointing to others... keep losing elections.

A competently run campaign wouldn't have let Trump's numbers get close. Sorry, this is all on triangulating "Moderates"... every time that they lose, they have someone else to blame.

Did Nader use his mysterious Green powers to make the Democrats accept election fraud in Florida?


Who were the Lefty "ilk" that cost Kerry the election?


Why did Obama win?

[MFM008]

92. Fuck all of them

They are part of the reason we're in the shit hole with this pig we are in.

[Eyeball_Kid]

96. Time to move on, folks.

Blaming our favorite villains isn't going to do any good. We have to move beyond this. What are you all going to do about Stein? Arrest her? Spit on her? Drag her through the streets? What will satisfy your desire for vengeance?

Enough. We have a very serious problem on our hands NOW.

There's a nationwide anti-Trumpy rally this Saturday. Get out and be strong. And if you can, make some noise for the federal law enforcement and intelligence people. They will play perhaps the biggest part in bringing sanity to our national politics. Our Executive and Legislative Branches are seriously compromised. There's a whole lot of push-back to be done.

[sheshe2]

192. Interesting.

A quote from your post

"Blaming our favorite villains isn't going to do any good. We have to move beyond this. What are you all going to do about Stein? Arrest her? Spit on her? Drag her through the streets? What will satisfy your desire for vengeance?"

They...left and right, have been doing this to HILLARY for 30 years.

[ehrnst]

272. This! (nt)

[still_one]

97. Those arrogant assholes did everything they could to undermine Hillary and the

Democratic party, and cheered when trump won, and the Democrats lost the Senate and House.

This will not be forgotten. If they have illusions of grandeur that people will be flocking to them for leadership, they are going to be sadly mistaken.

This "bad mistake", as Noam Chomsky characterized it, means they are persona non grata in the Democratic party, and they will rot in their green party irrelevancy, while real progressive causes will be fought in the Democratic party, by Democrats.

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/noam-chomsky-progressives-who-refused-to-vote-for-hillary-clinton-made-a-bad-mistake/

[Brogrizzly]

98. I dunno I find blaming people on the far left to be pointless...

A bit crying over spilled milk, right. Nader, Stein, who cares, where are they now? I mean if you wanted to get into a voter suppression discussion, loss of state democratic legislature seats, racism, Russian bots, any myriad of factors that got us here, fine. But et all gooblydook rage at Cornel West and company makes me kind of chuckle, because he's not our enemy Trump is. It's like every time I read a post like this, I wonder how infected our politics has become tribalism. Because that's essentially what this reads like to me. But don't mind me, I rarely post mostly read.
Cheers

[mcar]

101. K&R

[deurbano]

102. And I'll never forget the stupid assed members of the CA delegation shouting "Lock her up!" at

the goddamn Democratic convention-- where we had a woman nominee for the first time! That DID dampen enthusiasm and reinforced the completely outrageous and unwarranted "Crooked Hillary"/she- ought-to-be-in-jail narrative. And yeah...some of them were never-Clintoners, pro-Steiners.

My daughter was at the CA State Democratic convention in Sacramento, recently, and some "new" delegates-- who seemed to think they are much more enlightened, saintly and ENTITLED than the stupid grunts who did all the hard work before they showed up to save us-- all came down the escalator en masse, shouting "This is what democracy looks like!" My daughter, who uses a wheelchair, was unable to participate in that inspiring escalator democracy... but not to worry, "identity politics" is yesterday's news! (She said it was as insufferable as watching that disgusting orange thing descend the escalator at Disgusting Orange Thing Tower.)

[Gore1FL]

104. So let me understand.

It's "Stein, Sarandon, Cornel West and their ilk"'s fault that we have Trump because they didn't support Hillary. Your solution for the future is to condemn them the hell.

Setting aside the existence of hell for a moment, how exactly does that solve the issue at hand?

[tonedevil]

290. I agree with you...

and it makes me sad that many here think they will shame third-party voters into voting "properly".

[hrmjustin]

108. How those three can live with themselves I have no idea!

How any person on the left who voted for anyone other than Clinton can live with themselves I have no idea.

[nikibatts]

129. It's all about their Obama/Hillary hate. People like them can live with anything.

[shenmue]

112. Hillary Clinton will kung fu them all

Just a joke.

[Warren DeMontague]

113. feel better, now?

[SleeplessinSoCal]

127. West on Bill Maher came across as badly as twump.

His rage radiates. His refusal to admit his mistake was a painful sight.

[workinclasszero]

143. I agree!

Their purity standards will destroy this country and now the entire fucking world!

Good job assholes!! Putin and his pals Trump and Jill Stein applaud you!

[samnsara]

151. glad i read this thread. think it will be juried at least once. leaves me out!

[Eliot Rosewater]

153. And they have not retracted their bullshit yet and are emboldening unenlightened young

progressives to continue the insanity.

[sheshe2]

244. They have doubled down.

[apcalc]

158. Stein was working with the Ruskies...

Rotting, stinking " progressive".....and I sure as hell blame ALSO the progressive purists..."so heavenly minded they are no earthly good"....

[QC]

175. They seek to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids. n/t

[Chevy]

309. Say how is that FBI investigation coming?

Sure hope they finish it up quickly....

[QC]

320. They'll probably wrap it up long before you let go of the primary.

Do you remember Miss Havisham from Great Expectations? For some reason DU makes me think about her a lot lately.

[Chevy]

343. Oh your mistaken

that is on going news relevant to today. But please continue to defend those who attack Democrats on a Democrat site

[QC]

344. You spend virtually all of your time here attacking Democrats.

Why is that? A person could easily come here and get the impression that Trump must have vanished during the night, since so many of the loudest voices here are directed at Democrats and other progressives.

There's a genuine fascist in the White House. Remember him? He's way more important than message board drama.

[Chevy]

347. I attack Democrats. lol lol lol

Please name these Democrats. Stein,West?? Yet you give cover to them and dare call them Democrats.
Forget the primaries you say yet your so called Democrats attack our leaders constantly.
I do enough attacking Trump and his minions on Twitter but you know who else like to get up in my face as well, the little rose petals crowd in between them dragging POC for dare not embracing their purity.

[betsuni]

177. K&R

[kerry-is-my-prez]

178. THEY knew better and what could happen after Gore vs. Bush. The fact that there are many who

are not regretful even at this point tells you something about them. With many, their vanity is more important than the environment and the less fortunate. I do know people like them, fortunately, I don't know anyone who voted 3rd party because everyone I knew was terrified of what might happen if Trump could possibly win. The race was close enough that people should have known better.

The environment is very important to me and I really find it appalling that we have ANOTHER person in office who is going to crap up this world and set us back for another 4 years.

[Kahuna7]

181. Comey owns it. nt

[Trial_By_Fire]

193. So, these three people and "their ilk"...

...are responsible for Trump?

Yes, it is never the fault of the DNC, the candidate or their campaign...

Maybe it is time for Dems to starting fighting harder for all local, state, federal offices
and present a platform based on FDR/Sanders/Warren/and_others policies and issues.

Quit blaming others and let's all work harder.

[NurseJackie]

292. LOL!

[LAS14]

201. K & R

[Awsi Dooger]

207. Activists are inept handicappers

I'll keep posting that. No reason to think it will change.

Hillary had very low upside, as a known quantity and polarizing figure for 25 years. She wasn't going to threaten 52% or thereabouts.

The cycle also wasn't favorable, since we'd held the White House for 8 years, leading to voter unrest and lousy memories of how awful it was in late 2008.

The number of third party votes wasn't atypical. But you simply can't afford to siphon a normal number of votes when the situational landscape is either neutral or favors the other side.

However, a Susan Sarandon type is never going to have a clue about something like that. It's like a horse with blinders on.

[UCmeNdc]

212. The GOP owns it

[ucrdem]

216. I don't see much changing but things could be worse I suppose.

If we get to 2018 without a terra attack we're sure to gain some seats and if Trumpolini stays in place we'll probably win in 2020. But if anything upsets the apple cart like 911 we're probably looking at 8 years of tweetocracy.

[ornotna]

218. It just doesn't end

[Zambero]

230. They have much in common with Steve Bannon

Demolish the existing system and "rebuild" from the ruins. Whether it's the warped perception of Bannon or hopelessly misguided Sarandon, the actions of Donald Trump will "make it all possible".

[Azathoth]

233. Stein, Sarandon, and West represent approximately 0.1% of the population

[NurseJackie]

262. How do you figure? Can you show where that figure comes from?

[Foamfollower]

240. + 1 googol!

[ecstatic]

250. But they keep doubling and tripling down. Maher tried to get CW to see

his mistake and he STILL refuses to acknowledge that he did anything wrong. Normal people can admit their mistakes. Sarandon, Cornel, etc. are not normal. We can never again let unreasonable people hijack our progress.

[beachbum bob]

252. yep, those people are teaching the world a lesson aren;t they?

personal selfishness trumps responsibility....the lesser of 2 evils folks must be enjoying they havoc they have brought

[Orsino]

314. 100 million Trump and non-voters own this.

And American apartheid's Electoral College.

[clu]

354. not a bot been here since 2002

this is on the DNC choosing Clinton over Bernie. Since it's impossible to second-guess the outcomes of elections I will only say that Hillary lost the three states where Bernie beat her sometimes close to a factor of two.

[Scurrilous]

355. Boink

[KG]

360. I lulz'd

Again.

[Blue_Tires]

361. Add the Intercept and TYT too, for starters

I can name dozens more...

[Chevy]

363. Yes and they have been defended here

by some more then they ever did HRC and PBO.