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"It increasingly looks like Russian hackers may have affected actual vote totals."
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a55603/russia-hack-voting-totals/The Hard Truth Keeps Trickling Out, Little by Little
It increasingly looks like Russian hackers may have affected actual vote totals.
By Charles P. Pierce
Jun 13, 2017
The last outpost of moderate opinion on the subject of the Russian ratfcking during the 2016 presidential election seems to be that, yes, there was mischief done and steps should be taken both to reveal its extent and to prevent it from happening again in the future, but that the ratfcking, thank baby Jesus, did not materially affect the vote totals anywhere in the country. This is a calm, measured, evidence-based judgment. It is also a kind of prayer. If the Russian cyber-assault managed to change the vote totals anywhere, then the 2016 presidential election is wholly illegitimate. That rocks too many comfort zones in too many places.
(Bear in mind, for the moment, that we are discussing Russian ratfcking, and not the myriad problems with how we ourselves manage our elections. That's for another time, except in the context of how those inherent problems facilitated the Russian chicanery.)
It may well be that the Russians didn't affect the actual numbers last November but, as Bloomberg points out, that was not for lack of trying.
In Illinois, investigators found evidence that cyber intruders tried to delete or alter voter data. The hackers accessed software designed to be used by poll workers on Election Day, and in at least one state accessed a campaign finance database. Details of the wave of attacks, in the summer and fall of 2016, were provided by three people with direct knowledge of the U.S. investigation into the matter. In all, the Russian hackers hit systems in a total of 39 states, one of them said. The scope and sophistication so concerned Obama administration officials that they took an unprecedented step -- complaining directly to Moscow over a modern-day "red phone." In October, two of the people said, the White House contacted the Kremlin on the back channel to offer detailed documents of what it said was Russia's role in election meddling and to warn that the attacks risked setting off a broader conflict.
One of the mysteries about the 2016 presidential election is why Russian intelligence, after gaining access to state and local systems, didn't try to disrupt the vote. One possibility is that the American warning was effective. Another former senior U.S. official, who asked for anonymity to discuss the classified U.S. probe into pre-election hacking, said a more likely explanation is that several months of hacking failed to give the attackers the access they needed to master America's disparate voting systems spread across more than 7,000 local jurisdictions.
This may be so, but it's becoming increasingly harder to believe that, in one of those 7,000 local jurisdictions, the Russians didn't strike gold. American democracy went out on the roof last fall
snip//
We are creeping ever closer to actual evidence that there was Russian ratfcking of the vote totals in the last election. Not long ago, people wouldn't even suggest that out loud. We were made vulnerable to something like this because of the interference by the Supreme Court in Bush v. Gore, by the curious goings-on in Ohio in 2004, by a relentless campaign to convince the country of an imaginary epidemic of voter fraud, and by a decade of voter suppression by any means necessary. The Russians wanted to undermine the confidence Americans had in their elections? We made it pretty damn easy to do that.
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dalton99a
(94,109 posts)
oxbow
(2,034 posts)That's been my rallying cry today. guess that makes him right about one thing: the election was rigged!
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,957 posts)Hmmmmm.................
mythology
(9,527 posts)The elections in each state aren't wholly separate events. They correlate.
There is still zero evidence of actual vote flipping. There is evidence that Russians tried to perhaps change voter registrations, but there wasn't a rush of claims from Democrats that couldn't vote on election day. The evidence isn't there.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)If a polling error is made in one place, it is likely that many pollsters made a similar error in multiple locations. Plus it was a VERY volatile election. Pollsters, politicians and pundits were wrong almost constantly. Or do we think that Russia hacked the GOP primaries too? Because no one expected Trump to win the primary either. But he did.
I dunno why people are so set on vote hacking as the reason Clinton lost. We KNOW that GOP voter suppression and Russian interference account for the loss, plus the idiocy of Comey. I guess they want something more tangible? But the proof of vote flipping just isn't there.
kyburbonkid
(263 posts)We got ratfcked. Some states more that others. The Russians had (have) complete loyalty of the Kremlin loving GOP (KGOP) for the most part who would be willing to specify target states and precincts to attack. Besides the social media trolling armies, towards the end of the election they ramped up their cyber attacked including spear fishing techniques at GOP KNOWN voter command targets. We know that 39 states were attacked this way. If some software was ever compromised it could easily have ratfcked us bad. Simply recall how successful the attack was on the Iranian nuclear centrifuges! That was passed around by infected USB sticks. The same method could be used to program the Diebold voting machine and others if the code info is leaked.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)
I SAID we got ratfucked by propaganda and voter suppression. But not because or whatever random words just you typed.
58Sunliner
(6,326 posts)How many people do we think he ordered killed? And why? If you honestly think Putin was going to let any aspect of his investment and his goal be left to chance then you really do not understand Putin.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)what with the new sanctions and all! If Putin was so badazzzz he would have hacked Donald Trump's Twitter password a long time ago. His orange fool is going to get impeached due to his 3am Tweetstorms soon.
It would be kinda perfect if Jared Kushner 'fell' off a balcony soon.
58Sunliner
(6,326 posts)Putin is Russian and probably has a hard time understanding why it is DT and the repubs can't just walk all over us. Putin wanted Trump elected and our govt compromised. He got that. His agents are still active. He plays a long game. He took a risk hooking up with DT.
I'm not saying it was a well thought out plan but Putin did accomplish some of his objectives. He could care less about his twitter. Another aspect to consider is if Putin and DT were colluding for a while now, and then DT has neurological issues that become more apparent and more incapacitating, there is little that can be done. One can decline rather rapidly after masking problems for years. Putin may have thought it was irrelevant long term if he has enough people compromised. Apparently quite a few are. If Putin has a successor-in-collusion, DT may be expendable. He has apparently had people killed for less.
Now if we start seeing mysterious deaths of american citizens..
Calista241
(5,633 posts)And it was a marvelously executed cyber attack. The most successful of all time.
The kind of effort people are proposing here simply isn't possible. Hacks simply aren't 100% reliable. Someone would have been caught, or lost their USB stick. Variances would have been detected between hacked polling stations and un-hacked polling stations. Those kinds of discrepancies become obvious when you're looking for them. Thousands of mathematicians looked for these kinds of indicators after the election.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)All of these internet numbers sleuths who never bother to contact that myriad of professionals who work on these projects full time. 
vi5
(13,305 posts)Because that's a concrete way to avoid having to look at any mistakes she might have made or that the Democratic party made.
Because even with Comey and the leak and all of that, everyone was told time and time and time again "She's already been vetted.....all the 'scandals' are already out there.....she knows how to deal with attacks and smears."
If the reason she lost was actual physical vote tampering then those same people were right and not horribly, horribly wrong.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Without the voter suppression, Russian interference and the Comey thing, she would have won. Only two out of the three and she probably would have won too.
Democrats know they have to be better to compensate for the voter suppression. GOP always does that shit. But the other stuff was out of left field.
And part of the Dem base always reverts to 'voting machine hacks' when their candidate loses. GOP's go to is 'voter fraud'. But sometime your candidate just loses because the other candidate got more votes legitimately. It's painful to accept, but there it is. All the things you love about your candidate or hate about the other candidate? All of your deeply held moral beliefs? Other sane, decent people have the same deep feeling, but in the other direction. This seems to be hard for many on both sides to grasp. Maybe it's a mild form of narcissism? Or perhaps they don't interact much with people who have beliefs different from their own.
vi5
(13,305 posts)...but that she just had too much baggage and history and negatives to win. And despite what was promised at every turn, the campaign wasn't prepared for "whatever was thrown at her" in the form of the Comey thing. They responded like deer in the headlights.
And no, saying any of that that doesn't mean the criticisms against her were right, or fair or accurate or anything else, or that the media doesn't suck and the Republicans don't lie. Just that a lot of people knew that it would take way too much work and effort and a very "needle threading" campaign to counterbalance all that stuff and to win. And that didn't happen. And a lot of people don't want to admit that.
I personally think all the stuff about Democrats living in a bubble and not being in touch with "real America" or whatever else is complete bullshit. But I do think a lot of Democrats, particularly within the establishment wanted to admit what an uphill battle Hillary faced and just to what degree that people did not (right or wrong) trust her or the people she surrounded herself with. They wanted to instead point to these general, unscientific polls that showed her as popular and ignoring any deeper analyses. So eventually it became less about what it actually took to win the presidency, and more about putting all our chips on proving people wrong.
But you know what, that's all done now and we all have to move forward with what we have and what happened. But I still do see a lot of people who it wouldn't surprise me to believe think that if this whole Russia thing is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt and Trump is ousted or whatever else, that somehow Hillary will be magically appointed president.
Maven
(10,533 posts)
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)rockfordfile
(8,742 posts)
hurple
(1,359 posts)me too.
EVERY metric said Kim Don was set to lose... bigly!
And then... WTF?
HE overcame a near mathematical impossibility to eke it out by the absolute slimmest margins, but just enough to keep automatic recounts from kicking in.
It was stolen. He is illegitimate. He colluded. He is a traitor. He should die in prison.
Unfortunately, this isn't a fairy tale and rather than cheaters never win, they usually do, and he will. He will be laughing all the way to his gave, happy and fat off the money he ca grift from this country and its people.
Amaryllis
(11,285 posts)that they would stop short when they clearly have the ability to do it. People keep saying there are too many jurisdictions with different systems, but 80,000 votes in three states gave Trump the electoral college.
Jacquette
(152 posts)short of actually hacking the vote. Nobody believes that as hard as politicians, msm, law enforcement and the IC try to sell it.
Putin spent millions over decades just on DT alone. Not counting the senators, congressmen, governors, top military and other businessmen he's bought. After positioning DT at the pinnacle, with all his other minions poised and in play ready to take over the reins of gov't, we are to believe Putin stopped JUST SHORT of actual vote tampering? ..Cause...it would be wrong. Bullshit.
It's like the Lone Gunman and that Magic Bullet. Sure, Jan.
58Sunliner
(6,326 posts)Response to TheFrenchRazor (Reply #4)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Amaryllis
(11,285 posts)to believe that? And if so, why? I can never figure out why they don't take the state of our elections more seriously. They seem to prefer endless analysis of how they need to change the message.
Response to Amaryllis (Reply #87)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
book_worm
(15,951 posts)
sandensea
(23,336 posts)As every intelligence agency that has weighed in publicly about electronic voting has said.
Zing Zing Zingbah
(6,496 posts)I can live with waiting if that means we are ensuring an accurate vote tally.
LisaM
(29,633 posts)Votes are counted at the precinct level - it's not as if someone was handed a pile of 68 million ballots.
maddiemom
(5,179 posts)we always knew the results by early the following morning. Who needs (or WANTS, for that matter) to hear the results before all the polls are even closed? That just leads to messes and confusion like the 2000 election. You're right, votes are counted at the precinct level and passed up from there. Nobody is stuck counting a vast pile of votes at any level, and hand-counting in the modern communications era is not a big deal.
tecelote
(5,156 posts)The longer it takes to count the vote, the longer they have us watching their advertisements.
It's a win/win. They make money and we get our Democracy back.
Zing Zing Zingbah
(6,496 posts)I think the media organizations would love it.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,685 posts)Here in Canada, we know the results by 8 pm Pacific or so the same day. Sure there are ridings that are close and need recounts, or they for some other reason are late, but the overwhelming majority of districts are tabulated by then. In fact, living in British Columbia, the most western province, we annoyingly usually know who won even before all our districts are tabulated.
dragonlady
(3,577 posts)I don't know much about foreign elections and have always been curious about how the hand counting could be so easy. Paper ballots counted by hand are undoubtedly the best system, but harder to work with in the elections we have here in the United States. For example, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the November 2018 election (not a presidential year) will have 10 contests (senator, congress member, governor and four other state offices, one or two legislative offices and two county offices), and referendum questions are always possible in addition. Milwaukee has more than 300 wards with hundreds of votes in each ward. It seems that counting all that by hand would take quite a while! At least it would create some temporary jobs for election workers. I wonder if enough observers could be assembled to oversee the process in every ward.
MGKrebs
(8,138 posts)Sure they are counted by machine, but do a random audit here and there, and also look for any anomalies and recheck them by hand too.
But that's not all of it- if they are going to transmit totals to a central location it better damn sure be a secure connection. Otherwise, they need to hire Brinks or someone to deliver physical ballots and tally sheets to HQ. Especially in someplace like Georgia which is all voting machines with no paper trail.
diva77
(7,880 posts)When the polls open, pollworkers ceremoniously open the ballot box, inspect interior for stray ballots, then seal it shut. The paper ballots are dropped into slot as voting day proceeds. Once the polls close, the boxes are ceremoniously unsealed, then paper ballots are counted on the premises - at the precinct level -- so theoretically no ballot will be transported before it is counted. Then the results at the precinct are posted at that precinct. Chain of custody is noted after ballots leave the precinct.
Response to sandensea (Reply #29)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
sandensea
(23,336 posts)Everyone knows those proprietary, read-and-write programs were in fact DESIGNED to be easily hacked by whomever had the source code.
And that 'whomever' was intended to have a big fat R by their names.
Response to sandensea (Reply #83)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
diva77
(7,880 posts)on election day you can't see what's in the software/hardware, open source or not.
the most transparent way is to hand count the paper ballots with public oversight
Response to diva77 (Reply #177)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
maddiemom
(5,179 posts)
politicat
(9,810 posts)We've been using optical scanners for 50 years in education. They're accurate, under two circumstances: 1) The only thing that machine does is scan. It's not used for anyone's email or browsing or spreadsheet, and most of the time, it's not even on the network. 2) The software is open source and subject to audit.
It's not difficult for other places to have hand-counting, because the elections we see from abroad have one or maybe two issues/candidates on their ballot. Keep an eye on the paper sizes they use -- most are quarter or 1/3 sheet size. They separate their local elections from their regional ones from their national ones. Local issues are not on a national candidate ballot. That's not true here. An off-year ballot here is usually at least two ledger pages (11x17) and I've had quadrennial ballots that were 6 pages (3 sheets, front and back). That's enormous. Until we get the population motivated to accept regular, small elections of local issues, we're going to keep having the problem of very large ballots.
There's a difference between a tabulation machine (which should live in a lead vault that takes 6 keys and 15 cameras to open, should never be in any room with only one person, and should never need a software update) and a voting machine. The latter are glitzy theater, on the same lines as the TSA one quart ziplock bag of travel toiletries. Those need to go the way of the Betamax. But tabulators are (probably) not the problem.
byronius
(7,973 posts)
Johonny
(26,173 posts)
we can do it
(13,024 posts)The entire night it became more obvious.
dhill926
(16,953 posts)FreepFryer
(7,086 posts)
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)makes ya think.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)They are not even remotely related.
SharonAnn
(14,172 posts)are indicators that there was widespread "hacking" going on and that it was someone who was doing it to disadvantage the Democrats.
So, do I think the DU hack was connected? Yes, i do.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Hacking a small, privately run political chat site is also not the same as hacking voting systems which is not the same as tampering with voter registration systems. Which also didn't happen, BTW. (Russians poked around a bit, but there was no actual tampering with the data.)
We KNOW that the election was stolen. We also know HOW the election was stolen. It was stolen with voter suppression laws the GOP has been working on for over a decade and weaponize propaganda (yes, bots too). But that is not the same as hacking. Words do have meaning.
byronius
(7,973 posts)The idea seems to frighten people enough that merely discussing it brings about harshly absolute denials and accusations of lunacy and 'fake news'. But software patches on Sequoia/ES&S machines and tabulators used in multiple states were written by a Ukrainian subcontractor.
See, that's the problem with privately-owned electronic election machinery. Proprietary software written by bid-contracted vendors, never examined, never checked. In some states, no recount possible. In the critical swing states in the last election, Republican judges forbade any hand recount and simply ran the ballots through the same hacked tabulators again.
If Democrats owned the election machinery companies and the exact same scenario favored a Democrat, I would insist on a hand recount, and any other procedure that would assure the Republicans the votes had been correctly counted. The fact that they fight all verification attempts tells me they're cheating.
Insistence that there is absolutely no evidence of actual count hackery is growing more specious by the day. Statistical analysis is ephemeral compared to actual hand recounts. Why would anyone refuse a hand recount? WHY WOULD ANYONE REFUSE A HAND RECOUNT?
Because there is nothing more valuable to a democratic culture than a scientifically verifiable vote count. And nothing more important to autocracy than the power to change the outcome of elections.
It's a national security issue. Period.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Come on! That is a video of some random woman on YouTube making some claims. I am not frightened by any of this. It's just that you have not proof and the things that are ACTUALLY happening that we can prove are way more frightening.
I will recap: In NC, my state, an illegally gerrymandered GOP-majority in the statehouse passed Jim Crowesque voter suppression laws that swung the state for Trump. They STOLE the election. There is essentially NO FUCKING DEMOCRACY in my state due to the gerrymandering. The NC General Assembly about three steps away from sponsoring a fun 'wear your hood to legislature' day and there is no way to vote them out due to the way districts are drawn. Why would they steal votes illegally when the ALREADY did it and with the blessing of the courts?
So I got no patience for Jill Stein-lovers who wanna clutch pearls and tell me that I am too frightened to see the truth.
YOU are the ones who are ignoring the filth that the GOP put right up in our faces. We can PROVE they did this already, so where is the outrage?
byronius
(7,973 posts)Ratfcking is done a hundred ways, not one or two. And I really don't understand your position here. Odd that you would shame people on a thread like this. Doesn't fit your stated rage at gerrymandering. We're all ostensibly on the same side.
'Clutch pearls'? 'Stein-lover'? WTF? You're off the rails here. 'Wildeyed' is right. You have no point to make other than there's no proof or evidence of election fraud you will accept, for some reason. And it seems like a strongly personal reason, a stance for which I cannot conceive of a logical position for and have no interest in divining.
Is your point that election fraud takes the focus off gerrymandering? So we should shut the fuck up and listen to you because you somehow know better? Because your emotional status grants you greater authenticity somehow?
But you lost me, there, with the useless invective. No good reason for you to behave like this. Let the election fraud people discuss election fraud. Gerrymandering is quasi-legal, as you said. Election fraud committed with the aid of a hostile foreign power is not.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)The fact that there is PROOF of gerrymandering and NO PROOF of whatever it is that y'all are speculating about give my argument greater status.
If you say, 'Hey, I'm speculating about possible hacking of voting machines', great, have at it. But when people say that their speculation is tantamount to proof, then it is a distraction. A random YouTube video by a supporter of a candidate who eats with Vladimir Putin and says horrible things about Democrats is not proof. Strategically, Stein's job is to undermine the legitimacy of BOTH parties. She is NOT working for the best interests of Democrats. So why do I trust her supporters? They have their own agenda.
Russia was DEFINITELY poking around in the voter rolls. They did not alter the rolls. There is no electronic signature, nor was there any noticeable problems at the polls. There is NO PROOF. So let's focus on the actual problems that we know are true.
byronius
(7,973 posts)And handily dismissing proof because 'she's a Stein-lover' is a logical fallacy. The woman in the video isn't an agent of Putin. She clearly feels strongly about voting rights. Are you really suggesting that she's lying for the cause of Russia? Come on.
Even if there were no proof (an assertion I absolutely disagree with), there is motive, opportunity and ability. I would go to the trouble of providing what I consider to be substantial evidence if I thought you weren't wholly prejudiced. I don't have the time to hit my head against wildeyed walls.
Go, focus on the problems your logic leads you to. Gerrymandering is quite real, and good luck with altering the primal subroutines of the insane half of our nation. I'm as outraged as you are about that fact. However, my logic and information tells me that election fraud is just as consequential and dangerous, and I mildly resent your fact-free dismissal of it as an issue.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Anyone can post those. You know that, right? So I straight-up don't take random YouTube videos as 'proof' of anything. And then, on top of it not being a credible source, it's from a Stein supporter. I do not like or trust Jill Stein. Her motivations are suspect. She is ALSO not credible, IMO. So that is just some icing for me. If a Stein supporter showed up with actual proof, I would listen. But this is just random internet noise.
You have to PROVE they did it. If you can't prove it, your suspicions mean nothing.
byronius
(7,973 posts)I get your point. Thanks. Have a nice day.
Great job. Awesome show.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)I will discuss the POSSIBILITY of vote hacking. It is clearly possible and should be guarded against. What I will not do is accept that it already happened without PROOF.
byronius
(7,973 posts)I foresee nothing but charged skepticism and reflexive denial no matter what I post. Because you know better! Nothing will satisfy, nothing will pass, all is dismissed with broad strokes of your sneer-brush.
I don't want to play with you anymore. Useless.
Okay, you go ahead and post the last word, that's how winning on reality TV works. And that's clearly what you need.
Here, let me try --
'I would certainly accept any real evidence you might post. But because there is no real evidence, I won't. Therefore I win!'
Feel free to edit that up. Good enough? Great.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Give me some real evidence. I read the OP in the first place because it sounded like there was new evidence and I was curious. But it was just some sportswriter with zero expertise computer hacking or elections making specious claims about recycled information. Clickbait. Esquire should be ashamed.
So yeah, if you have more real info to add to the discussion, I am interested. But I pay attention to stuff like this and I haven't seen anything new in a while.
If you don't want to talk to me anymore, then stop replying. Sorry I got cranky earlier. The post from last night, it was late and I posted tired and mad. But I stand by my basic argument.
byronius
(7,973 posts)Yes, nowhere in the article does it specifically prove election fraud. Very difficult to do so, since the Red State SOS's have a vested interest in making certain no proof ever appears. One can, however, deduce that it exists simply from their response to any attempt to investigate or verify, as I posted upthread.
One can prove nothing. The universe may not exist at all; it may well be a two-dimensional projection. In fact, it may all be generated by the fevered dreams of a dying alien. Physics cannot be therefore proven, nor chemistry. All is perception. All is quite likely to be a simulation of expectation. No way to know anything for sure.
So, you're right. To me, election fraud is clearly a fact buttressed by years and years of reading books and essays by people I trust to be substantially correct, dream-reality notwithstanding.
Motive. Opportunity. Ability. And now, with new Russian Software Patches (tm) that may well be parsed from the stolen NSA software -- you know, the stolen software that the CIA is conducting a massive internal manhunt to find the leaker of.
Gerrymandering is an open crime of social violence. Election fraud is a concealed crime of social violence. It all works together to provide us with the dead ball of mud that the earth is likely to become soon enough. If, indeed, one believes in actual reality.
Plenty of proof that there is no such thing. Want links?
PS: The Salon article in the Kos post is worth reading as well. Also, this:
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)They make some common sense arguments for ways to make systems more robust and less vulnerable. As far as ALL paper elections vs. electronic machines with a paper backup (what I vote on), I really am not educated enough to make a strong argument either way. Every system CAN be corrupted. That I do know. Nothing will be perfect.
Where we disagree is whether the fraud has been taking place on a large scale basis already. I do not see evidence. I think there is AMPLE evidence that they steal elections through other 'legal' means instead. I will focus on fighting the crime that we know has been committed and making it as difficult as possible for them to actually tamper directly.
BTW, another way electronic voting machines are vulnerable is if there is widespread disruptions in the power grid during elections. Coincidentally, hacking our power grid is something that the Russians have ALSO been working on. So I hope districts that use touchscreens have a robust plan B in place in case of big power outages 
byronius
(7,973 posts)All of this is an act of war, and clearly supported by traitors within our midst. It's a dark time.
diva77
(7,880 posts)Memory cards are small and easy to switch out and the lighting isn't great at the County Elections Headquarters and elections workers can wear heavy coats while working and workers can be hired off of Craigslist...so many ways things can go wrong...machines can be programmed to break down in the precinct on election day; machines are transported days in advance with a cheap sticker to seal the machine before election day -- leaving them vulnerable to software changes; if a central tabulator is used, it's just a matter of creating an algorithm on the excel spread sheet that delegates votes from 3rd party to Repug every few votes -- they steal just enough. The central tabulator can be online and easily accessed from the moon. Notice how it's the "close elections" that go to Repugs
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)I can PROVE the other ways. What you are doing is called 'speculating'. It's a useful starting point, but the facts do not match up with your speculation.
Tabulators accessed from the MOON? COME ON! Not all close elections go to GOP either. Notice how Roy Cooper is the Governor of NC? And how Barack Obama won NC's EC in 2008? JFK won by .02% too. It's funny, I googled 'Democrats win close elections' and the top hit was a RW blog complaining how DEMS always win close elections.
The fact is that in close calls, the party that controls the state legislature is much more likely to edge a win. That is mostly GOP right now. THAT is how they do it, not hacking. It's not hard to figure this out. Makes more sense than hackers on the moon, for sure.
diva77
(7,880 posts)the burden of proof should be on the machines to be proven that they cannot be hacked -- this burden cannot be met, and that is why they should NEVER be used for our elections.
Do you believe everything you read on right wing blogs?
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)There were no digital traces and no significant statistical variations. Real professionals pay attention to these things, some who I know in the real world. They have no reason to NOT report if they detected either problem. So I take their word. If more evidence comes to light, I am willing to re-evaluate
People are so weird about touchscreens. Politicians stole elections LONG before electronic voting was a thing. It's not like paper magically makes a perfect system. "The burden of proof should be on ballot boxes to prove they can't be stuffed!!! Prove that they can't or we won't use paper ballots!!!" Waiting......
And I don't believe that close races always go for Dems OR GOP. That was my point, but whatever....
tinrobot
(12,060 posts)DU has served as a way for our side to communicate and monitor elections, vote totals, polling problems, etc.
Without this communication platform, we lost our voice.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)If you are using DU to monitor elections and polling problem, you are not a serious player. There are real election protection groups out there doing serious work. DU is not part of that system.
DU is a place to share news, vent and debate. There used to be serious debate too, but it's been awhile for that. In the distant pasts, posters held each other accountable. If you posted some mess about how election totals had been hacked, you better have a link with facts to back it up. But no longer.... And Twitter is always light years ahead on breaking news. Everything is suspect due to the volume of bots, propaganda and egotistical wanna-bes on both forums. YMMV.
tinrobot
(12,060 posts)wildeyed
(11,243 posts)I dunno. Why do trolls troll? Because their mommies didn't love them and they spent too much time playing Grand Theft Auto and watching internet porn so they never learned to have real relationships? That my working theory.... Trolls just want a reaction. They are laughing their ASSES off at us right about now, I guarantee it.
There were some trolls here, back in the day, who managed to delay a poster's cancer treatment. That was so gross and sad. In 2004, there was the Hatian Man-boobs troll who had a huuuuge following and then came out on election night as a Bush supporter. These people put a considerable amount of time and effort into f'ing with DU. None of it was important. They were just mean and bored.
Control-Z
(15,686 posts)on denying the possibility? Why?
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)It is possible. I fully believe that Russia is exploring the possibility of doing this in the future. But there are no FACTS to back the claim that they did it in 2016. I read all of these articles with much interest when they are posted because the titles sound like the found some proof. But it is always the same info. It's just clickbait. And it distracts from the actual problem we CAN prove and which if HORRIFYING.
To repeat, in my state, NC, an ILLEGALLY gerrymandered GOP majority enacted Jim Crow type laws designed to disenfranchise young, black and poor voters and threw the election to Donald Trump. They are now refusing to re-draw their racially discriminatory and illegal districts while they dismantle healthcare and public education and sell it off to the highest bidder. They send ICE agents to arrest parents in school pickup lines. Cut education in poor black districts and siphon the money into those with majority white and GOP leaning voters. This is happening RIGHT NOW. We have actual PROOF. This is how they stole the election and this is how they are stealing our healthcare and our children's education.
I WISH it was as simple as a hacker stealing votes from a machine. That is a crime. That is a thing we can fix. But the sad truth is MUCH worse and much harder to correct. Pretending that the fixing the problem is as easy as changing our voting machines does no one any favors except maybe the GOP.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I would then immediately believe the hacking of DU was by the same group.
The message the hackers put up here was, besides the homophobic piece, so certain that Trump was going to be President that if the Russians fixed the actual vote totals, it can't be a coincidence. Plus the "English" used in the hack message also suggested a foreign writer, most likely Eastern European.
we can do it
(13,024 posts)Our voice was taken, conveniently.
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)byronius
(7,973 posts)Several models have been made since 2000 with wifi functionality, purportedly for easy upgrades. 'Disabled', to be sure, but a convenient window nonetheless.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,497 posts)But there's a bit of honesty to that as well.
hamsterjill
(17,576 posts)"You want the truth? You can't handle the truth!"
I think this (i.e., the hacking) is known and understood by the Congressional representatives that are in the security briefings and cannot divulge what they know. It's the very essence, the very idea, the very BASIC understanding that our democracy will never be the same again.
Therefore, they are trying to keep this from the public. But it's going to eventually come out in a way that cannot be denied.
aka-chmeee
(1,226 posts)This has been my belief since the "election". I think our government knows what happened and there is no mechanism to correct the result and hence is terrified by what might happen if the information gets out.
hamsterjill
(17,576 posts)n/t
bluestarone
(22,174 posts)AGREE 100 %
LenaBaby61
(6,991 posts)"This has been my belief since the "election". I think our government knows what happened and there is no mechanism to correct the result and hence is terrified by what might happen if the information gets out."
What's extremely disturbing is that I see almost NO way to correct this Dem voting nightmare before 2018 & 2020, especially when you have an installed pro-putin president that appointed a lying, crooked, racist used to be ruskie hater in AG beauguard whose NOW in love with the ruskies since he became part of this treasonous tRumputin kremlin klan.
We know thuglicans are going to be voter-suppressing off the chain in 2018 & 2020, but what NEW & IMPROVED tactics will the ruskies be using to stop Dem votes from being counted or what will they be doing across this country to remove Dem votes from machines so they're never counted so that that they can continue on with their cheating and winning and destroying this country with their rotten, treasonous selves. SMDH.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Dude. It's in front of your nose. Voter suppression and weaponize propaganda. Our democracy will never be the same, but it has more to do with the Supreme Court rulings in Citizens United and the gutting of Voting Rights Act than some mythical cover-up by elected officials you are fluffing here. The Russians just took advantage of our weakness. They didn't CAUSE the weakness.
The GOP killed democracy a long time ago, but no one noticed until now. Trump is just a symptom of a disease we have had for a long time.
hamsterjill
(17,576 posts)Absolutely.
But, hey, I ain't no dude.
Achilleaze
(15,543 posts)
catbyte
(39,150 posts)per precinct. I've always laughed at conspiracy theories. I'm not laughing now. Something dark & dangerous happened on 11/8/16 & the Republicans are hellbent on making sure its not investigated.
barbtries
(31,307 posts)just a couple here, couple there. hit and run and no one the wiser. and trump is president and the republicans are on full slash and burn mode.
Bettie
(19,702 posts)suppression operation and the fix was in.
I've been saying this since the day our country was put on life support.
catbyte
(39,150 posts)SOS, most from Detroit and other urban areas. I've been mocked & laughed at here on DU for writing this, but I will never be convinced that this election wasn't stolen.
Bettie
(19,702 posts)and it wasn't only hacking, it was hacking, voter suppression, and probably a bunch of other things we're not even aware of yet.
Here's the thing. Even if it wasn't stolen, it would be a very good thing to ensure the integrity of our voting systems. To set in place things to ensure that everyone who is eligible CAN vote and will be allowed to vote. Why are people to resistant to this.
But, we're the crazy ones, right?
catbyte
(39,150 posts)lead shrunk from 13,700 to 10,700 when Attorney General Bill Scheutte filed suit to stop the recount. sickeningly, he's a favorite for the Republican nominee for Governor. The whole thing reeks.
csziggy
(34,189 posts)Those machines that could not be audited because their totals didn't match the number of voters but that state law PROHIBITS checking or recounting when that happens?
If I remember correctly, there were 80,000 voters affected by those fucked up machines, all in predominately Democratic and African American districts.
catbyte
(39,150 posts)AG Bill Scheutte filed suit to stop the recount. As of the time when the recount was halted, 45* had lost over 3,000 votes out of a total of 13,000.
Achilleaze
(15,543 posts)disgusting
Pinkflamingo
(177 posts)
BadgerMom
(3,417 posts)
yuiyoshida
(45,405 posts)
K&R and Tweeted
SunSeeker
(58,274 posts)
pansypoo53219
(23,034 posts)
trueblue2007
(19,251 posts)We need a Re-Do right this minute.
Me.
(35,454 posts)She lost because she ran a terrible campaign
lapucelle
(21,061 posts)and they're going to stick with it.
The lack of media outrage at what was done to Hillary is appalling. The only person I've heard mention that Mrs. Clinton is the victim of a crime is Ari Melber when he was sitting in for Chris Hayes.
Control-Z
(15,686 posts)Never a mention about what was done to that wonderful woman. The country needs to pay restitution to her by placing her in the office she won.
Ari Melber is a good guy.
nolabear
(43,850 posts)Pay attention, folks!
classykaren
(769 posts)
Teacheral
(33 posts)Paper ballots, paper ballots!
diva77
(7,880 posts)if you have paper ballots and put them through optical scanner, you have same problem as DREs -- easily hackable software; and then if you try to get a recount you can expect extreme resistance, abuse, and cost from elections officials, and ultimately no legitimate recount.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Like everyone else suggesting it or claiming it must be true this article gives zero example of how it would have been done.
SoCalMusicLover
(3,194 posts)Don't you think they did EVERYTHING to cover their tracks?
You expect the proof is staring everyone in the face?
Perhaps they actually took steps to cover it up, so as to make the argument you just made.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Manipulation of voter roles is detectable, if thousands of people suddenly didn't have valid registrations anymore we would have heard a lot Abbott it. That is a plausible way, but we have not seen any evidence of it yet. You can't hide tens of thousands of properly registered voters suddenly de registered and turned away on Election Day.
Past that- how? As I've pointed it before voting machines don't connect to the internet, so hacking requires physics access. Literally breaking into hundreds or thousands of county offices and hacking individual machines one by one and being totally undetected.
Hacking the totals between county and state offices as they are reported would be caught during audits if it wasn't caught by the observers from both parties who watch every step and would point out right away if the totals reported by the state didn't match the totals they came up with in the elections office.
So... how?
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)There were a few instances of improperly calibrated machines, but no more than usual. There were way FEWER problems with voter registrations at the polls than expected. NC voter protection groups had poll monitors and lawyers everywhere because we anticipated a voter ID law that was invalidated by the courts before election day. If there had been systematic disruption of registrations by outside groups, it would have been noticed.
But they did steal the elections. This is HOW they did it in NC: They ratfucked us when the illegally gerrymander NC General Assembly passed a monster voter suppression law that we had to fight in the courts right until the bitter end. It totally disrupted GOTV planning because we never knew what the law was going to be so we didn't know how to deploy resources or educate our voters. It confused voters who thought they needed ID when they didn't, so many just never showed up. It was a shitshow. We KNOW this already. This is HORRIBLE.
Let me reiterate. An illegally elected majority of state legislators passed racist Jim Crowesque laws to disenfranchise black voters and swing the NC election to Donald Trump. They were aided and abetted by propaganda deployed by crazy-ass billionaire Robert Mercer and a hostile foreign powers. Why do we need to make up stuff? We KNOW this already.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Real reasons shit happened.
L. Coyote
(51,134 posts)When you fix an election and do it right, there is no evidence.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)and maybe face the harsh but unpleasant lessons you need to learn to win next time.
You can't say how it was done, you can't show any evidence it was done, but you are sure it was done and sure it was done so perfect that there will never be any evidence.
I guess believing in that blindly is easier than taking a real hard look at how we failed and what to change. If you can keep blaming the boogeyman you say exists without any proof- so that boogeyman can always exist anytime you want it- you ever have to really face failure do you.
Until we get past blaming things that we can't point to with proof for our failures we will never fix our issues.
bluestarone
(22,174 posts)BUT WHY?? because the total recount was stopped thats why!!! WE were stopped in our tracks thats why!! THAT in itself proves to me i need no more proof!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)then clinging to the event you can't even explain how it was possible is self defeating.
And it's as foolish as if you lost and said "well, God wanted me to lose so that's it, no point looking anywhere else for an explanation". Both revolve around a blind faith on something you can't even explain.
bluestarone
(22,174 posts)If the recount had continued we would have the answer your talking about! We just stopped WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WE COULD HAVE PROVEN! WE BLEW IT!
L. Coyote
(51,134 posts)But hey, math is too much for Americans to understand, and statistics only applies in countries that still have science and reality.
L. Coyote
(51,134 posts)Get back to me after you have analyzed all the spreadsheets filled with data and statistical analyses in this one study, and we can move on to another study.
The 2004 Ohio Presidential Election: Cuyahoga County Analysis, How Kerry Votes Were Switched To Bush Votes
Your denial in the face of proof is the problem, either that or your paradigmatic beliefs in the absence of actually being fully informed.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)If you fix an election that way, there is plausible deniability. You can shave off just enough points 'legally' to swing the election. It is so stealthy that maybe you can even trick people into thinking it didn't happen and send them off on a wild goose chase after a crime that didn't occur!
Wow! That would be brilliant! Wonder why no one tried it already 
L. Coyote
(51,134 posts)outright fixing the election when that isn't enough.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)And yeah, you could easily put a percentage on fake news.
But that's a far cry from hacking or manipulation of the actual vote totals.
tinrobot
(12,060 posts)It has been stated that they hacked into the voter registration systems in a number of states. If they removed Democrats from the voter lists in those areas, they've effectively stolen those votes.
Whether they hacked into the actual vote counting software or voting machines seems to be unclear. There seems to be evidence that these hacks were attempted.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)We would have noticed.
We did in NYC during the primary, although that wasn't Russians.
People notice when they suddenly go missing from the rolls and get denied a vote. And they tend to complain.
And there are groups in every state watching for that kind of stuff.
NRaleighLiberal
(61,857 posts)SoCalMusicLover
(3,194 posts)Been thinking the same thing from the moment DU went down Election Day afternoon.
The FIX Was In!
But the Democrats did NOTHING in 2004, and even in subsequent elections probably, so I doubt they will bring this up now. Both sides seem to be together on the flipping votes thing, probably so they can each utilize when they wish.
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)were trying to tell me with a straight face that KremlinGate was a case about nothing built on nothing...
I'd love nothing more than to call them out by name, but I won't.
StevieM
(10,578 posts)as an excuse to take attention from the fact that HRC had no right to be the nominee to begin with (according to them).
L. Coyote
(51,134 posts)Because the Republicans have been doing this for a long time now.
DallasNE
(8,007 posts)They had massive computer problems and a sky-high number of blank ballots for President. Hack a hand-full of computers then blank out the vote. Too obvious with flipping a ballot so you blank out Clinton instead.
Bettie
(19,702 posts)precinct poll books.
MichMan
(17,149 posts)I don't know how they infiltrated the election staff of such a solid red area like Detroit to make them look incompetent.
Look, the investigation illustrated that the issues in Detroit were caused by poorly trained and incompetent election workers. The only reason that so many poll books were missing or lost was that Detroit lost them. Since it was a city that voted 90% for Clinton, I would love to hear how that was caused by Russian hacking
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)lindysalsagal
(22,905 posts)<crickets>
So, I guess they like it when Russia runs the country for them.
Wow. I never guessed that when those people were waving russian flags at the convention they meant it.
mahatmakanejeeves
(69,838 posts)By Peter W. Stevenson September 23, 2016
Nobody knows for certain who will win on Nov. 8 — but one man is pretty sure: Professor Allan Lichtman, who has correctly predicted the winner of the popular vote in every presidential election since 1984.
When we sat down in May, he explained how he comes to a decision. Lichtman's prediction isn't based on horse-race polls, shifting demographics or his own political opinions. Rather, he uses a system of true/false statements he calls the "Keys to the White House" to determine his predicted winner.
And this year, he says, Donald Trump is the favorite to win.
The keys, which are explained in depth in Lichtman’s book “Predicting the Next President: The Keys to the White House 2016” are:
{snip}
We're a little bit less than seven weeks out from the election today. Who do you predict will win in November?
Based on the 13 keys, it would predict a Donald Trump victory. Remember, six keys and you're out, and right now the Democrats are out — for sure — five keys.
....
Peter Stevenson covers national politics for The Fix. Follow @PeterWStevenson
Me.
(35,454 posts)mahatmakanejeeves
(69,838 posts)Pinkflamingo
(177 posts)
Thunderbeast
(3,818 posts)oh....geez.....they don't exist......
After ALL these years of questioning results, why the hell don't we have the ability to audit the results from a zero-base using paper ballots. We have let the media create a "need" for instant results reporting at the expense of accuracy and validity. If it takes two days to count and verify paper ballots, then so be it. The campaigns are now nearly four years long. We can wait a day or two for final results. The Supreme Court screwed us badly in Bush v Gore by holding that timely results were more important than accurate ones.
If paper ballots were universally used, the impact of hacks could be reversed......even now.
Response to babylonsister (Original post)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)but absentee ballot is historically the least secure method of voting. Also note that elections were stolen with paper ballots for most of democracy's short history. The phrase 'stuffing the ballot box' comes from somewhere.
There are problems with every system.
Response to wildeyed (Reply #101)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Like I said, I have not researched it extensively. But regular absentee voting IS vulnerable to fraud, much more than in-person voting. I am all for voting systems that are secure and increase participation. Vote-by-mail might be s great solution. But the demonization of all electronic voting systems in favor of paper is a bit silly. ALL systems are vulnerable.
Hey, you know how electronic voting systems are REALLY vulnerable? When we don't have electricity! And guess what the Russians have been working extra-overtime on hacking while everyone was losing their minds over the voter roll hacks? Our ELECTRIC grid!
You don't see really good ratfucking coming.
Response to wildeyed (Reply #107)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)You make screen selections, then there is a little window where you double check that your screen vote matches the paper vote.
Problems with absentees are people going into nursing homes and harvesting votes from elderly and disabled people who are vulnerable. People sell their ballots too. And there are instances where BOE employees change ballots. Usually just a crazy individual who does that, but it happens regularly. All of that is much easier to do with absentee than with in-person. Hard to swing a national election that way, but you could steal a state house seat or two. Not worth it in a solidly blue or red state, but in a swing state like mine, might be worth the risk.
The good thing about vote-by-mail is there is no way to make longer lines, etc. in college and minority districts. I dunno. There are pluses and minuses to all systems.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)they are useless. in order to get a comprehensive hand recount of the paper ballots, you have to prove that one is needed, and you can't prove that a hand recount is needed until you've already had one, thus showing that there is a discrepancy. it's a catch-22, by design.
mercuryblues
(16,409 posts)fucking with the data bases were enough. Change the voter info in the DB so it doesn't match the voter ID. Turned away at the polls. Clinton lost Wisconsin by 23,000 votes. 200,000 votes lost in Wisconsin due to their strict voter ID laws. Mostly in democratic leaning districts.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Clinton DID lose Wisconsin due to voter ID, but that is not the same as losing due to voter roll hacks. The ID law is technically legal and therefore much more effective. Calling voter ID laws a 'hack' distracts from the real danger, IMO.
Good news from Wisconsin is their partisan gerrymandering case was upheld and moved forward to the Supreme Court. If the GOP gerrymander at the state level is broken, Dems will regain the power to block voter suppression laws before they happen.
Eyes on the prize.
mercuryblues
(16,409 posts)does not match the info on the voter rolls, you get a provisional ballot. If your name is missing from the rolls you get a provisional ballot. You then have to go to the county registrar's office within a certain amount of time with all your info to prove you are eligible to vote. Some eligible voters were not even offered provisional ballots.
You hack and delete a few hundred names here and there. Combine that with everything else and the actual votes didn't need to be hacked. It is estimated that the ID law in Wis accounted for 200,000 people not going to the polls or not having acceptable ID to vote.
All these problems seem to overwhelmingly occur in Democratic strongholds.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)That's a feature, not a defect. They PLANNED it that way long ago. Democrats are generally poorer, blacker and younger than Reps. They are less likely to own a home so they move often and less likely to drive. This makes maintaining current ID more difficult. So they pretend there is a voter fraud problem and 'solve' it with voter ID laws.
Dems also tend to live in segregated areas, so you can cut the number of voting machines to create lines or 'run out' of ballots and cut turnout that way. All of these things make Dems more vulnerable to straight-up voter suppression. GOP doesn't HAVE to hack the database to get results. There is no evidence that they did either.
There is INTENSE voter protection work in NC. Multiple groups comb through all of the data, compare it to previous years to see if there is suppression. The findings are used in court cases that go all the way to the Supreme Court. We had a massive number of election protection volunteers ON SITE at almost every precinct, particularly in minority districts. If there were problems with the roll, we would know. If machines were flipping votes consistently, we would also know.
Can't speak for Wisconsin, but I would assume there are similar efforts there.
I WISH it was as simple as someone hacking a voting machine. That is an easy problem to address. It is a crime. They can be caught and prosecuted. But the truth is much more complicated. And you do no service to those trying to address the injustice by spreading false rumors.
Eliot Rosewater
(34,285 posts)Hillary was far ahead of idiot, and there are WAY more of us than them in those states.
She won those 4 states but for Russian hacking.
She won the election.
TryLogic
(2,291 posts)
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I wasn't positive. I just THOUGHT that might be the case and that it should be discussed as a possibility, since we KNEW that Russia had been trying to influence the election and Putin & Trump were bffs.
But I and others who thought the same were shut down quickly. "We can't have anyone even question the sanctity and trust of our election system!"
Lokilooney
(322 posts)The article goes on to say:
"It may well be that the Russians didn't affect the actual numbers last November but, as Bloomberg points out, that was not for lack of trying."
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)
Neema
(1,181 posts)they screw with vote totals? I actually had a friend act surprised at the suggestion. He didn't doubt that they'd hacked into databases, but was like "I don't think they actually changed vote totals." Why the fuck wouldn't they?
usaf-vet
(7,811 posts)Election night 2000. Drudge Report in large red headlines "DON'T trust the exit polls."
Exit polls were use be news organizations for years to predict election night results.
The GOP has systematically disassembled our election system since 2000.
Hanging Chads was the bait that got the country to go to electronic voting systems.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)heads are falling all over themselves to try to explain why the exit polls were "wrong." i'm not buying it.
StevieM
(10,578 posts)
DK504
(3,847 posts)"The hackers accessed software designed to be used by poll workers on Election Day, and in at least one state accessed a campaign finance database. "
They can now change the votes to whatever they wish, decide what direction our country goes and all this is an act of war.
Sounds hyperbolic I know, but they have now made it possible to steal every election we have and that is unspeakable. Not only do we need to change all the software, but we may need to resort to going back to old school tallying measures. No more computers....hand counts only until OUR government makes it safe for us to vote.
bluestarone
(22,174 posts)100% AGREE
Rollo
(2,559 posts)and distrusts electronic voting systems.
It would not surprise me if Trump's victory was courtesy Russian hackers.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)wildeyed
(11,243 posts) Rollo
(2,559 posts)TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)wildeyed
(11,243 posts) TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)through computer hacking. no system is perfect, but why are some here so determined to use that system which allows for the greatest ease and degree of election tampering? makes you wonder.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Absentee is the LEAST secure form of voting, and that is on paper. We use touchscreens because it is faster and easier to tabulate. Optical scanners are shit. If you get people to tabulate by hand, you can buy them off. There is ALWAYS a way to cheat if you really want to.
But it is most effective to suppress votes legally, so that is what they do.
Solly Mack
(96,940 posts)
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)The Obama people went to condition red; the Department of Homeland Security tried to declare state election systems to be part of our critical national infrastructure, which they clearly are. The Republicans in Congress shot that down. Curiouser and curiouser, some states declined to cooperate fully with DHS. As the invaluable Marcy Wheeler pointed out on the electric Twitter machine Tuesday morning, one of the recalcitrant states was Georgia, where you can't audit the voting machines, and where they are having a crucial—and extremely expensive—special congressional election next Tuesday.
Hekate
(100,133 posts)We have been well and truly ratfckd, and like the man said, we made it easy for them.
Pinkflamingo
(177 posts)wildeyed
(11,243 posts)That is a horrible article. The guy who wrote it is a sports writer and sometimes pundit. If he has actual proof that hacking effected the vote totals, I would love to see it, but that article is stuff we knew already repackaged with a bunch of innuendo.
They DID steal the election. Through homegrown voter suppression and weaponize propaganda from a hostile foreign power. We KNOW this already. This is how they did it. Dunno why people are hunting around for more reasons.
There is ZERO doubt in my mind that Russia is working toward disrupting elections. I doubt they would go after the actual vote totals. We would be able to identify the interference and there would be grounds to invalidate the results. But if they hack the voter registration roles on the day of the election? Chaos.
BTW, Russian hackers are going after the power grid too. This is another thing we know for sure. What if they unleashed rolling blackouts on key Democratic districts causing chaos and long waits? That would also be waaaay more effective than any direct hack of vote totals. And people would be inclined to say, oh well, deal with it. Just like they did with the propaganda attack.
lordsummerisle
(4,653 posts)
SweetieD
(1,673 posts)I think someone is sitting on the truth. No one wants to deal with this reality.
Warpy
(114,614 posts)but since it was Republicans doing the hacking (and doing it badly), they didn't care and kept those vulnerable systems in place.
Anyone who is the least bit surprised by any of this is either asleep or hopelessly stupid.
If you live in a state that still uses any of this stuff, call your state rep and senator and don't let up.
Paper ballots, preferably counted by human beings. It's the only way to begin to secure our elections.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)Botany
(77,315 posts)
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)
BzaDem
(11,142 posts)Oh, wait...
There is zero evidence that the Russians affected the vote counts. It would also be extremely difficult to do so (let alone without getting caught), given the decentralized nature of our voting process. A disinformation campaign would be more effective and would present much less risk to the hostile power, and that is exactly what Russia did.
I'm not saying it is completely impossible to affect the results. We should have more regular auditing of the results (in part to calm people down), as we had in Wisconsin. But the extreme difficulty and wildly imbalanced cost/benefit calculation should give people pause before claiming the voting machines were hacked.
byronius
(7,973 posts)Cost in this case -- probably millions of lives, possibly the extinction of the human species.
'Cost' is how electronic voting was sold. 'Benefit' goes to whomever owns the machines.
I personally think election fraud is the single most important national security issue. We don't need another goddamned hi-tech battleship -- we need transparent elections with automatic hand recounts if anyone so much as sneezes.
It's what I would cheerfully offer to the GOP in the exact reversal of the situation. Billions of dollars and thousands of personnel would be warranted, in my opinion. We're heading into a technical future that may hinge upon this single issue.
But I'm a little bit of a democracy freak.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)and how much did trump "win" WI by? btw, the risk of getting caught hacking is very low, and certainly the possibility of catching the hacker before the election results are certified is next to zero.
Response to babylonsister (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)taints the whole election system in a psychological way. If people believe, one way or the other, that the electronic voting is being hacked .. they throw their hands up in the air and say why bother. I vote here in GA on these Diebold machines and I don't trust them. There's such a degree of skepticism on whether my vote will actually be accounted for properly, I really am crossing my fingers. We have to go to paper ballots. They can't electronically hack those.
get the red out
(14,031 posts)If this is true (and there appears to be a good chance that it is). I can't imagine members of either party allowing it to be validated publicly, we might lose faith in our spectacular democracy after all.
JDC
(11,111 posts)That might make Republicans take notice
Rene
(1,189 posts)Server 1.2.3.4 runs script abcdvote. Is there anywhere in the log where there was an underlying switch to Server 5.6.7.8 to run same script name that had vote flipping in the programming? Then it's switched back to Server 1.2.3.4 with flipped results. Noone even watching the screen would know that the server/script switch had happened. I support distributed batch scheduling support....we use this technique for prod/disaster recovery testing/switching. It's very simple to do...and all 'behind the scenes'. Define the 2 servers to 1 Virtual name..and run a simple switch script. changes execution from 1st server to 2nd server. Run the switch script again and the server flips back from 2nd to 1st. Bad/flipping pgm has run on 2nd server. Transparent to the state employees monitoring.
Nitram
(27,741 posts)Just not to what extent it was.
itcfish
(1,835 posts)to have happened? Nothing? We will still have the traitor in office. No one is outraged.
jmg257
(11,996 posts)itcfish
(1,835 posts)But big deal, we are still stuck with Trump
jmg257
(11,996 posts)Trillo
(9,154 posts)I was intrigued by post #9 and #81, but have a different take on the whole matter. We learned from academic researchers in 2011 that a global superentity of corporate control exists. In regards to internet searching for related public ownership from Russia, I found nothing of significance (seems a black-box economy). After Gorbachev, the cold war seemed to stop, and there were U.S. corporate efforts made to attract investors from around the world. This also correlated to the personal computer revolution and the internet. Thus, it is reasonable to presume that Russia has laundered a lot of money into the U.S.'s overwhelming corporate-government structures, via any possible means, a big portion of which is likely black-boxed via shell corporations and off-shore entities. The internet and the idea of enabling the masses with communication and learning tools is a threat to those whose sole interest is authoritarian and tyrannical forms of control. That leads to my point: we are being told by the global 1% that they are firmly in control, and that liberal conceptions of protection of individual citizens via constructs such as the Bill of Rights and the Rule of Law are quaint ideas from a past era.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9197970
Post #9. "I think this (i.e., the hacking) is known and understood by the Congressional representatives that are in the security briefings and cannot divulge what they know. It's the very essence, the very idea, the very BASIC understanding that our democracy will never be the same again.... Therefore, they are trying to keep this from the public...."
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9199594
Post #81. "This has been my belief since the "election". I think our government
knows what happened and there is no mechanism to correct the result and
hence is terrified by what might happen if the information gets out."
ElementaryPenguin
(7,911 posts)Perhaps we can't.
ck4829
(37,758 posts)dchill
(42,660 posts)Doesn't seem fair.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)If I remember correctly, wasn't it the red states that jumped right in and took up the call for Technology!!! ? Improving the Process!!!! ?
byronius
(7,973 posts)'Reaping the benefits.'
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)🤢
furtheradu
(1,865 posts)No ruskies or trump suits, investigations on nbc news tonight. PBS on now,will they cover these important stories?
Thanks again for OP.
R B Garr
(17,984 posts)This just confirms the real reasons for this election outcome.
furtheradu
(1,865 posts)How does a post get pinned? 
R B Garr
(17,984 posts)or the Hosts in the groups. I just thought it was such big news that it should be front and center for awhile. News of a lifetime -- treasonous Prez, Russia collusion, wow, it still seems unreal!
furtheradu
(1,865 posts)Thanks for this
furtheradu
(1,865 posts)I think this is a big deal, & don't want it lost, with all the other news coming out so quickly. Is there a way to get this pinned, or something? Do You know the process for that? Thank You!