"But, but if we Get Rid of Trump, we'll End Up with Pence"

[Doug the Dem]

Were I not agnostic, I would Swear Before God that, the next time I hear that fucking bleat, I think I'm gonna blow!

Now, let's be clear here: Mike Pence is utterly loathsome. I'd say he was pond scum, but that would be an insult to water fungi everywhere. BUT, there is one key difference between the Vice President and Le Grande Orangutan:

Mike Pence is actually SANE! Yes, he is indeed a right-wing trog of the first order, but he will NOT, as president, go all Greg Stillson on us in the middle of the night.

And, let's not forget, he can be voted out of office---and will accept that result---in 2020. Can you honestly say you're confident that Trump would do the same?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Those are all good points.......

I think you're right about Pence.

The problem is that NONE of the folks in line behind tRump are any good.

It is upsetting and scary.

He will probably do as much damage as tRump, but more stealthily and without fanfare. That will make him harder to stop and we will need to keep a closer eye on him, somehow.

~sigh~

[retrowire]

29. This.

Essentially I agree that he's less likely to launch the nukes but he will more efficiently push the right wing agenda. :/

[Bernardo de La Paz]

36. You are mistaken about succession. This is an astoundingly common error.

The only way people like Republican Ryan get in is if both Republican Pence and Republican Trump are simultaneously convicted in the Senate after being impeached in the House. I hope they are both convicted, but simultaneous conviction may be practically impossible.

If Trump goes first, Republican Pence ascends and appoints a new VP.

If Pence goes first, Republican Trump appoints a new VP.

In NEITHER CASE will it be Republican Ryan because Republican Ryan does not want to be Ford to Nixon. He wants to try to be Reagan to Carter in 2024.

Appointed VPs have to be confirmed by Congress. So they better be a moderate if Republicans want to get anything done in Congress.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

59. Thank you for the information! In this case, I am glad to be wrong.

I had no idea that this is how it works.

[thesquanderer]

60. Simultaneous conviction not required.

I generally agree with your point. But it's not quite that cut and dried.

re: "If Pence goes first, Republican Trump appoints a new VP. "

True, but there could be a time gap between Pence's exit and the selection/confirmation of a replacement. Especially as it will need to be someone acceptable to Trump AND acceptable to Congress AND someone willing to take the job. Congress is not going to approve Kushner.

Also, no conviction at all may be required, if someone were to voluntarily resign.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

91. Good points. I think that Congress might rush a VP confirmation rather than a forced Ryan ascension

If an appointment has been made but not confirmed I'm sure they go through with it. Denying the confirmation would force Ryan up in the case of two successive vacancies with an appointment in between, as you say. But Ryan would pull lots of strings to avoid becoming Pres. Ford in 2020. He'd rather try to be Reagan in 2024.

[wryter2000]

80. Thanks

This has been bugging me no end.

For example, Nixon. Agnew resigned. Nixon replaced him with Ford. Nixon resigned. Ford became President. At no time was the Speaker in line to be President.

[Doug the Dem]

116. "Ryan is Third in Line for thr Presidency"

No, he is SECOND in line, after Pence. You're absolutely right: way too many people get this wrong! Maybe, a year from now, President Hatch can explain it to the country.

[lunamagica]

68. Exactly! In a way, that's even scarier

[pnwmom]

69. They are ALREADY doing things "stealthily and without fanfare"

while DT provides a distraction. That won't happen if Pence is President. We can focus on Pence's actions and policies, not a Presidential clown act.

[whathehell]

110. Neither Pence nor Ryan are idiots or loose cannons

They are loathsome, but not nuts. In the opinion of many, this is crucial.

[hlthe2b]

2. Sane and Predictable...just a ruthless, dangerously misogynistic theocrat

--but on some level I believe he is capable of putting country first. Trump can't even conceive of the concept.

And on edit, at least he and his family are "human" enough to appreciate and provide a good home to pets:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mike-pence-pets_us_5947f3a5e4b0cddbb00856c9

So, there-- four positives over Trump: sane, predictable (even if predictably bad), CAN put country first, likes pets

[pangaia]

30. "....just a ruthless, dangerously misogynistic theocrat.."

this is what proves that he is in fact not sane at all.

He is as mentally disturbed as trumper is...

[hlthe2b]

35. No... because Trump's narcissism is the ONLY predictable thing about him.

If he feels trapped enough, "attacked" enough, I put NOTHING past him in terms of harm he might visit on this country and its people.

Pence, for all his despicable beliefs, has an ideology/philosophy guiding him and lending him predictability. For that reason, he'd stop well short of the kind of self-destructive, morally repugnant catastrophic act, that Trump would commit on impulse to salve his "hurt feelings"...

[SergeStorms]

52. Pence is also......

a firm believer in the apocalyptic end of the world for the second coming of jebus. Would he have any qualms about STARTING that apocalypse? Just sayin'.

[hlthe2b]

58. So was George W*

supposedly...

I'm not religious and highly suspicious of Fundy Xians. HIGHLY. But, as much as I fevently disagree with their beliefs, I don't believe that automatically implies that they are clinically insane enough to bring about the destruction of mankind.

Trump? Might well do so in an impulsively vengeful act.

[annabanana]

72. I think he just rode that horse.

I don't think he was a true believer.

[TygrBright]

79. No. Not capable of "putting country first" UNLESS you define "country" as...

...white straight christians with penises.

The rest of us either learn our places and stay very 'umble and devout and quiet, or we roast in hell.

clarifyingly,
Bright

[hlthe2b]

83. I mean in terms of catastrophic destructive acts--nuclear war.

but then, I suspect you knew that. We are in agreement on his ugly policies towards women, LGBT and racial minorities.

[TygrBright]

84. You think he's incapable of kicking off the End Times by provoking a nuke incident?

I don't think he's incapable of that at all.

He knows he's going to sit at the Right Hand of Gawd.

revoltedly,
Bright

[hlthe2b]

85. Incapable no, as nearly happened by accident under at least one Democratic Pres.

Intentionally to bring about End Times--unlikely. Having had a bit too much interaction with fundy Xians in my life, the percentage that are that obsessed and thus I would consider likely insane is relatively small. They also tend not to be able to interact in society as their beliefs have stunted them in multiple ways.

[NightWatcher]

3. Preach!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Pence is ideologically terrible, but he's less likely to start a war

with Canada, France or Mexico, or even Russia. He knows how to behave himself in public, he doesn't have a collection of grifting family members looking to make big bucks off the government, and he doesn't go on twitter rages in the middle of the night. His awfulness will at least be predictable and to some extent manageable.

[pangaia]

31. But his behavior will also be less visible.

That is my concern.
"We' will celebrate the downing of trumper and forget that we than have another insane president.

[zentrum]

88. Sorry, but must disagree strongly.

He will be far less manageable precisely because he doesn't tweet-rage in the middle of the night. All of Trump's craziness keeps his atrocious agenda from being enacted.

Trump keeps the Republicans in chaos.

With Pence, the agenda will calmly and methodically go through Congress. Hello, Christian Right wing, the end of the ACA, privatization of all services, Lowered SS and medicare, and all the rest of it. Pence in one mean SOB.

Combine that with his competency and we're in worse trouble.

I refer to Al Franken on this subject:

http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/al-franken-says-mike-pence-zealot-who-would-be-worse-trump-domestic-policy-2554283

[Amaryllis]

111. Pence would be far less chaotic, allowing a lot more to get done as far as implementing a

nasty agenda.

[zentrum]

115. Yes, that's my point. Might be

....worse.

[flibbitygiblets]

98. The possibility of Trump starting a diversionary war scares me more than anything

Assuming there's some safeguard against that (you know, needing congress' approval and whatnot), Pence is likely to be more dangerous because finally the Repugs would be able to realize their evil agenda.

Buffoonish as Trump is, he does have a knack for stepping over his own party's ambitions by sucking all the oxygen out of the room whenever the topic is not about HIM.

[procon]

5. Maybe not. He might be looking at the same fate as Trump.

Pence was there from the start. He's smarter than Trump and he knows the inside of DC politics. Even if he can't be tied to actual plans, there is still the question of what did he know, and when did he know it?

If Pence was aware that Trump and his team were engaged in any sort of illegal activity, whether he participated or not, he's still going to face serious charges. He has good reason to lawyer up, and I suspect that if Trump goes down, Pence won't be far behind.

That brings us to the third in line, Paul Ryan, and what he knew of Trump's doings.

[unblock]

11. doesn't much matter in the sense that no matter what, a republican will still be president

be it pence or ryan or hatch or an appointment a la gerald ford.

[procon]

24. Actually, it matters a great deal.

Look at it this way, because the more Republicans that get entangled in these investigation, and the more the line of succession is eroded, the less power and clout the GOP has to get their agenda passed. Having an unelected president like Ryan or Hatch will cloud everything they try do under a pall of illegitimacy and corruption. That weakens every other Republican in congress as well as all their down ballot candidates.

If Democrats can't figure out how to take advantage of that situation (and I'm not holding my breath here) then they might as well hand over the keys to the Republicans and turn out the light when they leave.

[unblock]

28. fair point, though i'd say we get 90% of the benefit from successfully forcing donnie out

people don't vote the bottom of the ticket.

for sake of argument, let's grant pence's best case scenario, that donnie is forced out, but for obstruction having zero to do with pence; moreover, that pence is entirely cleared of any electoral malfeasance, collusion, etc.

he may have a technical claim to legitimacy in that case, but it would still be hard for him to wield real political power in the aftermath of the trump disaster.

that said, the only historical precedent of a president being forced out of office is nixon, and ford was himself not nationally elected. so we don't have any historical comparison to suggest whether an elected vice-president would have fared any better. still, ford had a real shot at winning in 1976....

[exboyfil]

43. What would have happened if Ford had not issued the pardon

He set a terrible precedent by doing it. In general I hate pardons for the powerful (see Weinberger, Rich, Hearst) or the violent (see the Puerto Rican assassin (Collazo) and bomber (FALN) pardoned or commuted).

[unblock]

71. hard to say. he certainly took a hit for that decision; on the other hand,

he spared himself and the republican party many more months of ongoing investigation and prosecutions.

to a large extent he succeeded in his objective of putting the scandal behind, if not the country, at least behind the republican party.
it's frankly amazing that we won only one presidential election following watergate.

nixon
nixon/ford
carter (yay!)
reagan
reagan
poppy

5 out of 6 consecutive election they win, including 3 out of 4 *after* they're known as the party of watergate. unbelievable.


can you imagine if ford hadn't pardoned nixon and instead his un-elected presidency was constantly being overshadowed by yet more watergate saga -- testimony, more revelations, indictments, prosecutions, etc.?

frankly, i think his pardon was self-serving and gave himself the best shot at re-election. i think it would have been worse for him had he not.


horrible precedent, i agree. the final abuse of power / obstruction of justice, imho.

[SummerSnow]

6. I guess it is the lesser of two evils. But in this case , both are evil to the same degree.

Btw , Pence is worse cause he plays behind religion . Those kind of people are purely evil.

[mopinko]

55. cheato hides behind a religion he doesnt even believe in.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

7. Disagree. If Trump is so tained he is forced out, they all are. They're all complicit and unfit to

lead. If Pence is president, the Republicans will push so fucking hard to "move forward," and with someone who's smart enough to actually get shit done, and much of the country will be so relieved that this fever dream is over they'll go along with it. No, at this point, we need to ensure if one is out, at the very least Pence is, too.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

14. I think you miss your own point. Trump is tainted, and so is everyone else.

So anyone who follows Trump would be tainted by Trump, but probably won't share his malignant narcissistic and highly volatile tendencies.

[NewJeffCT]

44. agreed

If Trump goes down in the next year or so, Pence will be a wounded lame duck and will likely not even run again for 2020. Look for some of the same players - Kasich, Rubio, Cruz, Jeb, and maybe another governor or two to be players.

Additionally, Trump has been able to play the media like a fiddle most of the time - he talks, then run to cover what he says because he might say that next outrageous thing; he tweets, and it's big news that sometimes dominates the entire news cycle and drowns out coverage of important things like healthcare. Pence is the anti-Trump in terms of charisma - he's dull and bland and the media might actually be forced to cover some of the deplorable things Congress is doing to screw over the poor and middle class because they won't be scrambling to hear what Trump said or read what he Tweeted.

[JCanete]

8. Mike Pence is probably very very dangerous. That said, there are no real downsides to getting rid

of Trump. It gives the GOP a black-eye, even if they do the removing themselves, and it fractures their own base, since they and the media have helped to make Trump a man who can do no wrong with 35 to 40 percent of the population. If they decide they can't let him take them down with him and remove him because he's become too much of a liability, they are still going to be in for a world of hurt. There's also a chance Pence doesn't come out of this unscathed, which will also hamstring his Presidency and will make it hard for the media to put pressure on Democrats with a straight face, to just go along with one agenda or another. He's not exactly going to have a mandate.

I'm not sure though, that it matters what Trump accepts...he's gone so crazy that maybe they'll just drive him away in a limo and tell him he's still President. Its not like there's coup potential with this man.

[thesquanderer]

63. re: "no real downsides to getting rid of Trump"

I'm not sure about that, if it means Trump is replaced by someone who is actually more effective at getting terrible legislation passed, and/or someone tougher to beat in 2020.

I'm not saying it's not worth it... there's a lot to be said for getting Trump out regardless, i.e. I think it would be good for international stability. But saying that there's NO downside overstates the case, I think.

[JCanete]

74. that's fair. In some ways I would rather have a Trump than a Pence. I just think under the

Circumstances, Pence is likely to have a hard time with his own party and will already be at least a little bloodied by this whole mess.

[athena]

9. He also totally lacks charisma and is widely recognized as extreme in his views.

He would have a hard time winning in 2020, barring unforeseen circumstances.

I don't want to say that Trump is charismatic; he is not, at least as far as I'm concerned. He does, however, seem to appeal to a certain group of people who are turned off by those who are highly educated, thoughtful, and use difficult words.

[NewJeffCT]

45. Trump has that smarmy con-man charisma

or, you can also say that he's like a train wreck - you can't help but watch so you can either read his latest crazy Tweet or hear his next outrageous statement.

[Missn-Hitch]

12. Guilty as charged.

A SANE true believer, who knows how to legislate with a GOP controlled Senate and House.

Let's face it, he is the guy the evangelicals want anyway. Forget executive orders - the bills will start to flow, judges will be confirmed at Mach II.

At least the pace of legislation and judges being confirmed is at a snail's pace.

It is truly unbelievable the situation we find ourselves in.

I am on board - the Executive Producer of The Apprentice needs to go ASAP.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

13. Pence would be terrible but a) far less volatile than Trump and b) heavily tainted due to Trump.

He would be unable to avoid the association he had with Trump, and if Trump either resigns or is impeached and removed, Trump's name would be absolute mud. And considering Pence would have to deal with either pardoning Trump or letting Trump potentially face criminal charges, it's a no-win for him, and a win-win for us.

In no way do I support Mike Pence or have any illusions as to the type of President he'd seek to be. But him being shoved into the Oval Office could play out very well for us in 2018 and 2020.

But Trump himself is highly mentally unstable, unpredictable, and heavily corrupted. He is a cancer on the nation and needs to be legally stripped of his office as very soon as possible.

[ImpeachTheGOP]

15. He is NOT sane. He's no better than the Taliban.

I'm afraid you're going to have to blow. The chaos that Comrade Тяцмр sows really makes it hard for the evil motherfuckers in the GOP to get anything done. A Pence in office would be a coordinated, controlled demolition of everything that is good in this country.

Unless we can take them ALL out with the Russia probe, we're better off with the Tangerine Shitgoblin in there.

Sorry.

[spooky3]

65. I agree. N/t

[Catmusicfan]

16. Pence is going to go down too.

He knows way too much. He was the Transition team when they took it from Christie.

[SummerSnow]

66. No wonder he hired a lawyer. he knows.

[gratuitous]

17. Let's get Trump out of the Oval Office first

My personal philosophy on ridding our body politic of these miscreants is called "Next man up." Guess how it works. If Pence graduates to the big chair, I'm perfectly willing to get to work on turning him out of office. But first things first.

[spanone]

18. the administration will be totally crippled. unable to pass anything....as it is now

and i'm not sure pence is sane.

[BootinUp]

19. Trump is going to be the most

ineffective POTUS of all time, and u want to replace him with puke DC insider. Not a good idea. Sorry

[hibbing]

70. Disagree

Look at all the damage he and his corporate tools have already done. Net neutrality, EPA, . Now on to slashing Medicaid and kicking 20+ million people off health insurance and gosh knows what else.


Peace

[FM123]

20. Pence may not be the lesser of 2 evils, but he is the lesser of 2 crazies.....

[nini]

21. Thank you.. I get tired of that line myself

Trumpy is a special kind of danger to the entire planet. Pence will be a fucking nightmare mostly at home. We're gonna have our battles with him for sure but Trump must go - Pence will eventually follow.

[Xolodno]

22. A bit more...

...Pence will also be knee capped. He'll spend the term trying to play and look legitimate. He won't be able to so much as fart without giving an explanation.

[Shell_Seas]

23. I second this opinion.

[onit2day]

25. Uphold the law. More worried about Lyin' Ryan

[MariaCSR]

26. Pence is a true believer, which makes him dangerous IMO

He intends to reverse all progress on women's and LGBTQ issues.

[magicarpet]

100. Pence is a rabid Dominionist theocratic fascist.....

....... if tr-dump goes bye bye and Pence become #46 and picks Ted Cruz as VP which I could see Pence doing. Now we have two rabid Dominionist running the show. Pence would do this because that will be his insurance policy that they do not prosecute Pence for anything. or Cruz becomes #47 if Pence is forced out. Then you could see bye bye democracy and hello old testament style theocracy. Who would Cruz pick as VP ~ Reverend Pat Robinson or Reverend John Charles Hagee ?

Not a pretty picture.

We may be better leaving tr-dump there. Let the leaks and prosecution of this clown trudge on. Let him and the constant clown show and illegalities drip drip out. Gum up 2018 so we take the House and then shut him down and drag them all through the mud so they get trounced in 2020.

[Turbineguy]

27. Pence is on the skids too.

Catch rats one at a time.

[catbyte]

32. I think that Pence is more dangerous than Dolt 45*.

Last edited Mon Jun 19, 2017, 04:48 PM - Edit history (1)

He seems like a reasonable guy but he's not. He knows Congress and could usher any number of horrific bills through passage. He's also a True Believer, a Christofascist of the first order who would have no qualms pushing his heinous Dominionist agenda that would be worse than the grifting currently taking place. I live in Michigan close enough to the Indiana border to have seen close up the shit he's tried to pull there. They hate him in Indiana and his political career would've been over if Benedict Donald hadn't chosen him. I also think he's in on this Russian collusion thing up to his eyeballs, so maybe we can dump him too, but that would be much more difficult to do. Plus, the fact that he calls his wife "Mother" and "Mommy" is just plain creepy.

[Joe941]

42. this.

[Neema]

106. This.

[msongs]

33. dems have No power to get rid of trump. repubs will have to do that nt

[ThoughtCriminal]

34. Impeachment should be about the rule of law

not just the political ramifications. If we reject impeachment because we don't like the VP, then we are legitimizing the idea that the President can be above the law when it is politically convenient to leave him in office.

Impeachment sends the message that this behavior will not be tolerated.

[Lucky Luciano]

62. +1,000,000 right here folks.

I have argued this with others in real life.

Besides, as others have argued above, a president Pence that arrives by impeachment or resignation is politically crippled and will not get anything done. Then we own 2018.

[Martin Eden]

96. Most Definitely

The more we accuse the Repugs of having no principles, the more we have to stick to ours.

Having said that, the political ramiications of a Pence predidency and comparisons to Trump are legitimate topics of discussion.

[Not Ruth]

37. Louise Mensch has reported that Orrin Hatch is next in line

https://patribotics.blog/2017/05/11/sources-russia-probe-means-president-hatch-rico-case-against-gop/

Several separate sources with links to the intelligence communities of more than one nation, and with links within the US state and federal justice systems, have outlined evidence that exists against multiple men in the line of succession to the US Presidency, as it relates to Russia’s hack on America. I can also exclusively report a RICO case is being considered against the Republican party for laundering Russian money.

These sources say that Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, who was the ‘Designated Survivor’ at the inauguration of Donald Trump (yes, really) is likely to become President if charges are pursued, according to the evidence, of illegal collusion with Russia, money laundering, and obstruction of justice.

[NewJeffCT]

46. Mensch has had a few scoops

but, I don't think she's been very accurate on some issues lately related to Trump/Russia

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

47. Louise Mensch doesn't know what she's talking about - again.

Even assuming all of this is true about Pence and Ryan - if a president leaves office for any reason, the VP becomes president, and that new president now is required to appoint a new vice-president. So if Trump goes down Pence becomes president and he appoints a VP. While that person has to be confirmed by the Senate, keep in mind who controls the Senate. So then say Pence gets impeached and removed - the new president, Pence's VP, also appoints a new VP. Ryan never gets to be president, and neither does Hatch, unless one of them is appointed as VP by Trump or Pence.

The only way Ryan would get to be president via the succession order is if Trump and Pence were impeached and removed from office simultaneously, before either could appoint another VP. The only way Hatch gets to be president via the succession order is if Trump, Pence and Ryan are impeached and then removed from office simultaneously, which will not happen.

Hey, Louise:

[TygrBright]

81. "Designated survivor" is not the same as "designated successor."

The Constitution lays out the line of succession, and that can't be changed without a Constitutional Amendment.

The "designated survivor" is someone from within that line of succession who is "designated" each time there is an event at which the President and all others in the line of succession are likely to be in close geographic proximity. (i.e., at a State of the Union address, at the Inauguration, etc.) The "designated survivor" is NOT allowed to attend, they are supposed to be Elsewhere, in the event that some catastrophe occurs at the event and takes out all the other successors.

helpfully,
Bright

[magicarpet]

104. The only way Hatch becomes #46......

Is if tr-dump, pence and ryan all get on the same plane and it crashes with no survivors then hatch becomes #46.

Don't hold your breath for that scenario to come about.

[Neema]

107. If I'm going to fantasize,

it's going to be about Dems taking over the house in 2018 and THEN having both Pence and 45 in orange jumpsuits after a new speaker is elected. A miracle, I know.

[tinrobot]

38. Sane enough to actually enact policy, and that's what scares me.

[vkkv]

39. Pence will be on a VERY SHORT LEASH.

- if he survives.

[vkkv]

40. Pence COULD RESIGN BEFORE TRUMP does or is IMPEACHED.

[MoonRiver]

41. Dominos fall one at a time. Just saying.

[onecent]

48. And Ryan wouldn't have a chance to be president....he shunned it for weeks!!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

86. Ryan would not accept appointment as VP by Trump or Pence. Ryan wants to be Reagan in 2024

... not Ford in 2020.

[onecent]

87. Good. Thanks for the info!

[drray23]

49. I don't buy this argument.

What would happen with Pence is that he would be a lame duck. If Trump is impeached/convicted and is out, Pence would have to deal with the aftermath. Most of the GOP would be in even worse shape that it is now. Trumpers would be fighting with the rest of the GOP.

Nothing whatsoever would pass congress. Trump has mobilized the electorate like nobody before and in particular, he is mobilizing the democrats. If Trump is out, most members of congress will be in panic mode trying to figure out how to get reelected. The whole GOP is tainted and I don't think they will be able to pull it together even with Pence at the helm.

[Steven Maurer]

50. Sorry - I WANT SOCIOPATHS TO BE AS INEPT AS POSSIBLE - period

The difference between Trump and the world's worst dictators isn't one of them being more evil than he is. It's one of them being more competent than he is.

All in all, Reagan did far more damage to the country than Trump will ever do. Pence could too.

So no. I disagree. In full caps.

[TygrBright]

82. This. You put it way more succinctly than I did. Thanks. n/t

[Neema]

108. Yes, I agree. Pence is very cold and efficient. Not as unpredictable but just as

loathsome.

[Eliot Rosewater]

51. They are all guilty of collusion and treason, per se, so take them down one at a time.

[Moral Compass]

53. Ya gotta point

But I agree with one of the other posters. I think pence would be way better at pushing the current extreme Republican agenda.

[regnaD kciN]

54. Yep. While Pence would be a horror...

...at least he wouldn't be likely to declare martial law the next time his poll ratings dropped, or get us all killed because he got into a dick-measuring contest with a North Korean dictator.

[TheBlackAdder]

56. Based off of Pence's religiosity, I could hardly call him sane, but he's not a complete lunatic.

[get the red out]

57. I agree!

Absolutely true.

[Gman]

61. Rumors and leaks on Twitter say

Pence is not clean either. He had known about Flynn all along. And it's highly unlikely Pence was not involved in the Russia thing. It was going on all around him.

That leaves Paul Ryan who is said to be recorded on the topic of laundered Russian money going to GOP congressional candidates.

That leaves a President Hatch who as of right now looks to be clean. I can live with Hatch. Don't like it but he's not completely unhinged.

[samnsara]

64. at this point i would even welcome GW Bush!

[NRaleighLiberal]

67. we need to just take this step wise. the dumpster MUST go. then we will worry about what

comes next.

What we are witnessing is simply insane.

[Progressive dog]

75. Pence at least pretends to respect our laws.

[flying_wahini]

76. Pence would ditch Bannon, though.

And all the other worm tongues in the Oval Office. Pence would clean house and I think most Repugs are sick of the Christian Right and would just tolerate him. Pence would never get re
Elected, because he wouldn't have enough time to convince us that he's a nice guy after screwing us over after gutting healthcare and all the other things on his agenda.

[TygrBright]

78. Pence IS the Christian Right, Opus Dei version. They'll LOOOOOVE him.

And wait until you see the wormtongues HE'D appoint.

shudderingly,
Bright

[TygrBright]

77. No, he is NOT sane.

He is a Class A Delusional of the Opus Dei genre.

He thinks Gawd wants him to bring about the end times so them as deserves it can roast in hell, and them as are white, male, straight catholics can do whatever they're gonna do with Jesus and all the dead Popes in the Afterlife, where wimmin know their places and all the aborted fetuses cavort with little cherubim in the love of the Holy Ghost.

He's MORE dangerous than the Tangerine Shitgibbon because people THINK he's sane. He can talk rational, look rational, act rational to convince people to do all the rational steps toward his completely insane agenda.

With the Tangerine Shitgibbon, anything that comes out of his pie hole is assumed to be bullshit gibberish and people act accordingly. He's less likely to get away with anything really damaging because it's slowly (too slowly) dawning on everyone what a dangerous irrational narcissistic lunatic he is. Only people who still think they can manipulate him to get what they want will collude with him, and that cadre is getting smaller by the day.

Pence, on the other hand, will have a large cadre of dedicated co-conspirators who can do all KINDS of damage.

helpfully,
Bright

[zentrum]

89. Al Franken says Pence is worse

http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/al-franken-says-mike-pence-zealot-who-would-be-worse-trump-domestic-policy-2554283

[alfredo]

90. We don't know if he is involved in Trump's crimes.

[kcr]

92. Recced this so hard. It's so damn dumb.

I don't get people who want to keep Trump in power despite everything he's done and set the precedence that it's okay. So much better to keep the inept sociopath in office and let him get away with everything! Derp.

I'm sorry. Being afraid of Pence is no excuse. Anyone who is capable of thinking more than one step ahead should be able to clearly see why we need to get rid of Trump. I see it as a form of defending his actions.

[Sunlei]

93. was leadership Republicans plan all along," ignore trump, keep him busy" "worse case is Pence is in"

I don't think Republican leaders give a shit about what happens to trump. Pence does all the real work anyway.

[virtualobserver]

94. Pence is more like Greg Stilson than Trump

It WILL be worse if he gets in because the MSM will completely normalize HIM.

[backscatter712]

95. Trump is literally a traitor.

This is where we should be Americans before Democrats, and push to impeach and remove that SOB before he can do more damage to our country.

While at it, Pence should be investigated as well, for the purpose of making sure he is politically damaged goods before he takes office.

[Madam45for2923]

97. I agree with you! Also it drives me nuts people saying that. It's like they want to stop us from

getting rid of Donald.

[ecstatic]

99. If he's really sane, why is he Trump's VP?

Why is he still defending and praising Trump despite all the lies and incompetence?

[leftyladyfrommo]

101. Yes. But at least he has a dog.

They just got a puppy.

He probably isn't a sociopath.

[bresue]

102. Just because Pence is quieter than blustery Dump, he is dangerously worse!

Sly and hides behind his religion to do whatever he wants.

[SHRED]

103. Pence would pardon Dump

And for serious crimes.

That would be a millstone around Pence's neck.
It will drag him down.
Lame duck.

[Neema]

105. I cannot agree that he's entirely sane. A man who supposedly fervently follows Christ while also

being fine with gays and women dying due to his policies cannot be playing with a full deck.

I will agree he's not as unpredictable as 45. We know exactly what Pence will do; and none of it is good.

My fear with Pence is that he'll actually get more done than 45 has. As much as a fucking nut job 45 is, he's mostly just caused a whole lot of chaos and provided a distraction for the GOP to do whatever they like. Of course at any minute he could go off the deep end and start a nuclear war or provoke a terror attack 10x worse than 9/11. That's terrifying of course.

But Pence? Pence will just quietly and efficiently work with the GOP right out in the open to turn this country into something straight out of the Handmaid's Tale. He won't stay up all night tweeting about it and threatening it, he'll just do it. And his calm, "Christian" demeanor (especially in contrast to nut job 45) will probably convince a big percentage of Americans that he's doing the right thing.

Not saying I don't want 45 to go, I surely do. But I honestly hope the process takes awhile.

I think our best hope honestly is to spend the next year making sure that EVERY eligible voter who gives a shit about democracy votes out as many Republicans as humanly possible in 2018. If the nutjobbery, and late night tweets, and investigations drag on until then, all the better to convince folks that the GOP has GOT. TO. GO. If Pence takes over closer to the midterms, his hands will be tied until 2020. We just have to hold Dems and Independents' feet to the fire to make sure they obstruct the shit out of him. Take a page out of the GOP playbook.

As long as I'm dreaming, perhaps a real miracle will happen and both 45 and Pence will be in orange jumpsuits after the midterms AND we'll flip the House. I might have to stop being agnostic if that happened.

[El Supremo]

109. But all the Repukes in Congress would probably support Pence.

Right now we are benefiting from the divisiveness among them.

[Whiskeytide]

112. I've said it before ...

... the only thing worse than a dysfunctional republican administration is a functional one. How much damage would have been done these last 5 months if no scandal Pence was the head of a completely republican controlled federal government? Let that sink in. I despise Trump. And I'm not saying he's not spitting on democracy. But he is as ineffective as we could hope for given the across the freaking board stranglehold provided to the cons last November. And I think - hope anyway - that Trump is slowly scandalizing his way into losing congress (at least the Senate) in 2018. That's worth enduring Trump a little longer in my opinion, as F'd up as that sounds.

[yuiyoshida]

113. Pence is a religious Bigot as is Trump

I wonder what would happen if PENCE were to make sure all NON Christian places of worship were to be removed from the United States. I wonder what would happen if Atheists became outlaws.. because Mike Pence is a Born Again crazy right winger who probably has no tolerance for other religions whether you are Christian or not.

[thucythucy]

114. Spiro Agnew was supposed to provide impeachment cover for Nixon

because, after all, President Agnew??!!! But look how that turned out....

[RhodeIslandOne]

117. "We may lose all our rights, but at least a nuke won't fry us!"

What did Patrick Henry say again?

[applegrove]

118. Was Pence not the architect of New Orleans neocon Bush revolution

after Katrina.

[DemocraticWing]

119. Pence is a monster who wants to take away my rights. He can fuck off.

The insistence that he's "sane" or whatever has to be the dumbest tendency on the left right now. He's dangerous, more dangerous than the idiot Trump, and no less likely to start a war. He just has a stronger veneer of respectability about him for the exact reason to get us to let down our guard and talk about how he's "sane." I'm sure all you Hashtag Resistance folks will pack up and go home as soon as Pence gets in, retreating to the suburbs and sleeping soundly while he murders people and tortures children.

Say no to Pence. Never.

[niyad]

120. mikey APPEARS sane, but his misogyny, homophobia, bigotry, religious zealotry, etc., make

it clear that he is not. and he is, therefore, all the more dangerous.

as I keep saying, NOBODY in the line of succession is worthy. they are all disgusting, pathetic excuses for humans. what the answer is, I know not.