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[geek tragedy]

This message was self-deleted by its author (geek tragedy) on Thu Jun 29, 2017, 12:51 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[stonecutter357]

1. Did you vote for Nancy Pelosi ?

[Zoonart]

10. So we're HELPING

the right scalp hunt now? Is there any Democrat whose name they will pervert into a curse word?

[stonecutter357]

22. This is a hit job on Nancy Pelosi, It's like the 5th op today telling us to hate Nancy Pelosi !

[Zoonart]

34. Being trolled.

[stonecutter357]

38. prolly russian/rwnj BOTS..

[Demsrule86]

63. Why would you have an OP that mouths GOP talking points?

[EL34x4]

93. What are the RW talking points i the OP?

Honest questions about whether Pelosi can help us win the districts WE NEED TO FLIP can't simply be dismissed as RWTP just because people don't want to hear them.

[Hekate]

199. We are being concern-trolled about one of our BEST Dems, and those questions are not honest.

[Hortensis]

91. It's a major right-wing meme that is also being

piggybacked on by anti-Democrat lefties hoping to amplify its effect.

There is a huge difference between earnestly feeling new leadership is needed by our party and trying to destroy our party's chances in 2018 by taking out its leadership.

Notably, every day lately trolls pretending to be oh-so-concerned have been signing up at DU and posting anti-Pelosi messages.

[secondwind]

185. Enough already!

[lunasun]

2. I like Nancy Pelosi and I am in Illinois

I dint see her the way you posed the questions so can't answer

[Egnever]

3. Absolutely

When you look past the bullshit stereotyping people want to put on her.

[geek tragedy]

4. How does Nancy Pelosi help the party appeal to left-behind populists

in places like exurban Columbus or Youngstown?

[Egnever]

6. I imagine you would have to identify what is important to people in those places

and then point out the work She has done to fight for those issues. I guarantee she has fought for something they are passionate about at some point.

[geek tragedy]

13. voters in those places don't pay attention to legislative records or policy very much

they look to whom they can relate.

[Egnever]

17. Then it doesn't make a shits bit of difference who Nancy or her mythical replacement is

They will be painted with the same brush.

[geek tragedy]

29. you don't think having someone who is (a) ancient and (b) representing

the quintessential affluent, coastal, culturally leftwing district raises issues for how the party relates to voters who've abandoned it in recent years for the Tr*mp party?

[ehrnst]

52. So why is that her responsibility? It's never been the responsibility of a previous House Minority

Leader.

She's elected by her district to represent them, and elected by her peers to do the following:

The minority leader is the principal leader of the minority caucus. The minority leader is responsible for:
Developing the minority position
Negotiating with the majority party
Directing minority caucus activities on the chamber floor
Leading debate for the minority

I'll take "ancient, experienced, and respected by her peers" over "Younger, less experienced and not as respected by her peers" any day of the week

[Midwestern Democrat]

179. Election performance has always been the main criteria they have been judged on - go look at the

Last edited Wed Jun 28, 2017, 09:18 PM - Edit history (2)

history of Republican House Minority Leaders during the decades of Democratic congressional dominance. Joseph Martin was ousted as Minority Leader after the 1958 Democratic landslide; Charles Halleck was ousted as Minority Leader after the 1964 Democratic landslide; Gerald Ford was probably lucky he wasn't still Minority Leader during the 1974 Democratic landslide - John Rhodes was left holding the bag on that one and he eventually gave up the leadership in 1980 (because many Republicans were starting to express unhappiness with his leadership).

[peggysue2]

66. So, are we . . .

to dump Elizabeth Warren for being from Massachusetts, affluent, not young (aka ancient) and culturally left-wing? Why not include Bernie Sanders in the mix? Because, after all, it has nothing to do with gender (wink, wink).

Why don't we stop playing the game that the Republicans are desperate to have us take up: demonize Democratic leadership and get on the Pelosi hate-wagon.

Enough already!

Btw, it would instructive to look at Nancy Pelosi's voting record and actual words when it comes where she stands on middle-class working Americans. And how she has fought (quite effectively) to push pro-worker, poor and middle-class policy packages in the House.

This constant haranguing on Nancy Pelosi is counterproductive. In her own words: she's worth the trouble. She's proven that point, again and again.

[geek tragedy]

106. If we're talking about the Presidential nominee, Warren and Sanders are poor candidates imo.

Pelosi has one job these days--help the party win back control of Congress. Her ability to move legislation is completely irrelevant as she's the minority leader.

Is she an asset to helping the party win over swing voters? No evidence of that.

[peggysue2]

113. We are not talking . . .

about 2020 responsibilities and/or potential presidential candidates. At least we shouldn't be until the 2018 elections are in the rearview mirror. Do I think Pelosi can corral support for her members and raise big money to get them and new candidates over the finish line in competitive 2018 races? Yes, I do.

And so do Republicans. Which is why we're hearing all the howling and 'let's dump Nancy Pelosi' nonsense. Pelosi has been a powerhouse to reckon with and the GOP knows it.

My suggestion? Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot using a Republican shotgun.

[geek tragedy]

114. How exactly would Pelosi help get candidates over the line in competiive 2018 races?

The fundraising argument made some sense up until this year, but Tr*mp has meant that small donors are flooding candidates with cash--look at Ossoff.

[peggysue2]

119. Ossoff . . .

was running in a red, red district where Price had been racking up 60-65% of the vote. Karen Handel won but didn't come close to those numbers. In all these special elections, traditionally red districts--see SC contest where the Dem came within 3 pts--the margins were significantly reduced. If you want to run around with your hair on fire, taking the GOP bait, there's nothing I can say to change that.

But from my perspective? Pelosi has the experience, a proven record and the donor clout to give us our best chance in the midterms. That's the goalpost on which we need to keep our eyes fastened, not blowing up the Democratic leadership list.

[Skidmore]

146. "ancient"

followed by a RW formulation talking point tha creaks back to Gingrich? Perhaps you need start lookīng around you and see who belōngs to our party.

How ancient are you?

[geek tragedy]

150. I was 15 when Pelosi started serving in Congress.

And I get Medicare/AARP spam.

[Skidmore]

152. I get that literature too

but I don't consider her to be ancient, any more than myself. Measure a person by the quality of their serviçe. She's done a yeoman's job over the years. Experience should never be discounted.

[geek tragedy]

155. experience is useful for governing, but a liablity in politics (in the USA anyways)

when the question is "change vs experience" always bet on change.

[Jim Beard]

166. I will take Sam Rayburns experience of 48 years any day as congressnab and Speaker of the House.

These people have power and can bring in the money. Its the poor slobs like Scott Walker that are the most crooked because they have the most temptation. A millionaire will resist the temptation to gain a little.

[ehrnst]

54. So what did you think of people in those places who hated Obama? (nt)

[spooky3]

184. Exactly right!

[ehrnst]

50. Since when is it the job of the minority House leader to do that? (nt)

[geek tragedy]

108. Since there's been a Congress.

Retaking control of Congress isn't the main thing, it's the only thing.

The minority party has literally nothing else to do in the House other than trying to retake it.

[ehrnst]

118. So doesn't that make the DCCC redundant?

Why does that committee exist?

[Blue_Tires]

139. Why is that Pelosi's problem and not say, the Ohio Dem Party?

[geek tragedy]

188. It's both. nt

[spooky3]

186. Exurban Columbus is generally Romney Republicans

And some Democrats.

Lived there for nearly 2 decades.

[EffieBlack]

5. That's not the Speaker's or Minority Leader's job

She knows her job and does it extraordinarily well - probably better than anyone in recent history - and leaves the grassroots political outreach to the people whose responsibility that is.

[yardwork]

8. +10000. This OP is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the minority leader.

Nancy Pelosi got the House to pass Obamacare. That is a remarkable achievement. Just that one achievement alone puts Pelosi among the top Speakers of the House the United States has ever had.

[EffieBlack]

12. She also got a lot of other tough legislation through the House

People forget that it in 2009-10, it was the House, not the Senate, getting ish done - and then it went over to the Senate to die. But, Pelosi got blamed for it.

And now she's being blamed because Democrats aren't winning their races. I call bullshit.

[yardwork]

14. It is bullshit. Unmitigated.

[smirkymonkey]

84. Thank YOU!

I am getting so sick of this crap! What do people want her to do? Throw on a MAGA hat and join a mega-church?

[ehrnst]

86. +1000 (nt)

[stonecutter357]

23. +1000.

[procon]

61. Exactly!

The OP appears to be somewhat confused about Congresswoman Pelosi's job. That or they have embraced the rightwing meme that Pelosi is some diabolical, all powerful, Svengali-like puppet master who single handedly controls every Democrat in the country. Sure, she's smart and she's tough, but she is only the Minority Leader of the United States House of Representatives, who represents one district in California, NOT Ohio and Michigan.

[Tarheel_Dem]

167. Thank you, and this is all coming from a spectacularly unsuccessful wing of the party, if you know..

what I mean.

[NCTraveler]

7. I responded to a post earlier today...

That was a promotion of the right wing meme that the left thinks everyone should get a trophy. I stated that it won't be long before we see members pulling the liberal elite card to attack our own. Well done.

[geek tragedy]

15. it's not an attack (hello, I live in Brooklyn) it's political reality.

There aren't enough people like us, or who are persuadeable by the arguments we are making, for us to win elections.

If we're not doing everything we can to win more elections, we're not doing enough.

[NCTraveler]

18. It is a complete regurgitation of the liberal elitist meme. Nt

[geek tragedy]

20. It's more than a meme, it's a pretty widely held belief amongst the left-behinds.

Now, we can either try to defuse that bomb, or we can toss more gasoline on top of it.

But only one of those two is going to win elections.

[NCTraveler]

28. "Only one of those will win elections."

I truly have gained respect for you and your posts over the years. It's also clear you are pretty damn intelligent. I just find this to be the promotion of the liberal elitist meme and extraordinarily simple and inaccurate in the binary line you just threw out. I don't think Pelosi or her wealth have as much a negative impact on the states you mention. The connection is so weak in my eyes that it looks like you wanted to call her a liberal elitist who is the death of our party and then found a way to do it.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to new leadership and feel we could be more organized with respect to the party structure.

[geek tragedy]

30. I feel liberated to make these points, because I'm close to the stererotype of an urban elitist

liberal myself. Live in a neighborhood where all the white people are either hipsters or yuppies, don't have a single Republican friend, etc.

That perception is political poison for us, and we can't just ignore it. Doesn't mean we have to run in fear of it--but where we do have the opportunity, we should defuse that weapon.

I'm more than willing to have the face of the party represent people who are not a lot like me and my neighbors.

Just make the losing stop, it has to stop.

[NCTraveler]

36. Also doesn't mean it is the end all be all as you are outlining.

I don't resent you or your neighborhood.

[geek tragedy]

37. At some point, the Democratic Party has to switch back to evangelist mode and away

from true believer mode.

Don't know how it happens, but people have to sense that the Democratic party has changed before they'll reconsider it.

[kcr]

60. Oh, no. It's the opposite.

I've long noted that it's mostly the people who meet the definition of elitist who smear liberal elites. And I can tell you exactly what message that sends. "Other people like myself simply don't understand those dimwitted common folk."

[geek tragedy]

107. Everyone who understands Obama-Trump voters raise your hand.

Bueller? Bueller?

[haele]

44. Okay, so what are you willing to give up to appease them?

Put Charlie Christ or another Blue Dog in as Minority Leader?
Banish all West Coast and Elitist NE Democrats from leadership positions?

I know they feel "left behind", but the reason they despise Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton - and every other strong democrat is because they're Strong Democrats, and the Media paints them as rabid Liberals.

I get it. It's FUD from the Media, especially Sinclair, Clear Channel, and Faux, which is pretty much all there is where they come from. Doesn't matter what we tell them the Democrats want to do for them, doesn't matter about competency and actual effectiveness, it is all about what looks good on TV. And frankly, most of them think women are weak.

Because of Media "image" the so-called Working Class left-behinds Democrats think they want Tip O'Neill or LBJ back, because these "guys" look like the hard bitten, salt of the earth work-a-holics they can have a drink with at the Rotary Club, or at the Elks, or sit near at the next Big-10/SEC/ACC game - guys who wouldn't mind rolling up their sleeves and putting a hard-hat and work boots on to tour the worksite and commiserate about jobs, borders and the unfairness of society at large. They'll "take care of the regular Joe".
While in the Midwest Nancy is obviously a latte drinking Liberal from "San Fransico" (and you know what sort of deviants and wusses live there!) who wouldn't get her nails messed up putting dishes in the sink, let alone care about real workers - she only cares about her image, dontchaknow...
While a lot of Pelosi's perceived weaknesses is the way she has to wheel and deal to get the Blue Dogs on board in the first place. Her work is incremental, and that's just due to the nature of politics. She can't dictate from on high, because that doesn't work in a Coalition - something most of the "New Blood" Berniecrats don't seem to understand.

Do you want an attractive image, or do you want competence and political savvy? Do you think the Democrats should be an "Evangelical Establishment" like the GOP and the Greens - where they practice groupthink in policy, or are we a Coalition that wants to govern with *everyone's interest* vice lead focus groups from goal to goal no matter who gets hurt?

Remember, the GOP dirt throwers project; they look at governance as "winner take all", and do everything they can to make a strength look like a weakness in the "court of public opinion".

Haele

[betsuni]

163. +1

[ehrnst]

68. So did we "toss more gasoline that bomb" by re-electing Obama?

Lots of angry left behinds who resented his "elite arrogance," yet voted for Romney...

[geek tragedy]

109. Obama overperformed with the left-behinds--much better than Clinton did.

Democrats need to do 2 things:

1) Win over white populists who would generally be on board with our economic program but have hair-trigger sensitivities to lectures from smarty-pants liberals, as well as swing voters who generally dislike the DC establishment and are more interested in seeing reform than a particular agenda.

2) Inspire the base of social liberals, ethnic minorities by demonstrating solidarity with civil and human rights.

This is not an easy task, and no one can do it indefinitely.

[ehrnst]

121. So... when did the discussion of Pelosi turn into a discussion of HRC?

I was talking about elected officials, not HRC.

We didn't refuse to renominate Obama when the white populists kept saying that he was born in Kenya.

And our most reliable base in the Democratic Party is black women, and the current move that some Dems want to make away from social justice issues to somehow fool those white populists into voting for us has a high probability of backfiring.

And getting that base back will be an even harder task.

[geek tragedy]

125. Democrats are more of a coalition than a coherent political party when they win.

They're very coherent and unified when they have no power as the minority.

Obama managed to pull that act off.

Not all white populists are vile racists.

[ehrnst]

127. So you're saying that there wasn't significant anger and dislike of Obama

among the right wing?

[geek tragedy]

134. sure, it's not the hardcore rightwing or alt-right we're chasing

it's people who oppose Medicaid cuts, think of themselves as racially egalitarian, but have a strong dose of ignorance when it comes to how this country treats black folks--those folks were the types that might flip from Obama to Trump

[ehrnst]

162. Um... were you around for the last 8 years?

Are you saying that the Alt-right was born in 2016?

[Blue_Tires]

143. What are you playing at here?

If there's some big punchline, I'm not getting it...

[geek tragedy]

148. Here's the point: our House leadership (including but not limited to Pelosi)

are all over 76 years old. They're exactly the wrong people to help rebrand the party to the (unfortunately large number of) Americans who have started tuning our party out.

In Pelosi's case it's exacerbated by her district being the city that's the physical representation of not only the cultural left, but also economic inequality driven by a hyper-affluent managerial and professional class.

The party needs new blood at the top of its House leadership--there needs to be a signal to voters that this isn't the same party they've been rejecting since 2010.

[Blue_Tires]

153. Okay, fine... Who should be leading then?

And remember, they not only need to be senior (or well-experienced) Dems, they need to live in 100% guaranteed unfuckwitable seats, which means you're just trading San Fran for some place like Chicago, Boston, New York, Philly, etc...

[geek tragedy]

156. that's question House Dems need to ask in earnest before

it can be answered.

The one very smart thing Republicans have done in Congress is dump their intra-caucus seniority rules. It encourages ambitious go-getters to move up and take over, rather than allowing people to gain power and influence--never to lose it--based on inertia.

Democrats tend to passionately defend our leaders. That's a very good thing in a lot of cases.

But, at some point we have to recognize that they're ultimately means to other ends.

[Blue_Tires]

158. You must have SOME ideas, since you're so convinced Pelosi is the worst thing ever...

I'm perfectly willing to entertain thoughts on new leadership, but just stop with the whole "Pelosi is losing us races she has nothing to do with 2500 miles from her home district!!1" -bullshit, because it plays in to GOP hands, it weakens Pelosi's position in the house, it muddles the issue, and is just flat-out factually wrong...

[Hortensis]

94. Removing Pelosi in the middle of the 2018 race (now!)

is a major right-wing goal. But you must know that. Whatever your personal motivations, you're pulling the same direction as some very bad people, Geek.

If you want change in the party, why not choose a good candidate and start promoting that person here? But, please, always first take a few seconds to make sure the kochsters are not pushing that person also.

[geek tragedy]

103. When party leadership is old and entrenched, they wind up being a political liablity

as they make it very hard to market the party as committed to change and reform. They also--male or female, successful or failure--accumulate baggage and become unpopular over time.

In Pelosi's case, it's even worse in that her district has about as little in common with swing congressional districts as is possible.

[Hortensis]

110. Or so you imagine. You might want to learn more on the use

and organization of power. A small part but vital part of which is that her own caucus will be the ones to choose to keep or replace her.

Ryan, very unlike some name that might spring overnight into your view, and the electorate's fancy, has a huge power base behind him--the Kochs, so he was never fatally handicapped by inadequate support in congress. However, he is viewed by congressional experts as both very weak and prone to foolish mistakes. Turns out he didn't get a brain transplant during that period Romney hid the Kochs' extremist stumble-foot VP choice away during that campaign.

I notice you offer no replacement, viable or idiot, no one as well allied as Pelosi, and not even someone suddenly rising out of oblivion because of some bloviation that caught the public's fickle attention.

So I'll ask again, WHO would fill the critical hole that would be left after you managed to remove the very strong and very experienced power base that keeps the Democratic house caucus pulling together. QUICK! There are only 45 others you need to choose from, and we are in the MIDDLE of the 2018 election. It's not up ahead. It's happening now.

Or is your only passion removing HER? At least the Republicans and the powers backing them have very good reason to go after her--to disable the Democratic Party. Have you nothing but her age, decades of experience, hundreds of very valuable connections, and dozens of major power alliances? (Your own charges restated, except age and sex remaining the same.)

[ehrnst]

130. I'm interested in the answer to that as well. Apparently "not Pelosi" is as far as I can get out of

her detractors.

[geek tragedy]

135. the House Minority leader's official job duties are pretty much meaningless.

Ryan has been in the public eye for a lot shorter than Pelosi and has already seen his popularity plummet across the spectrum.

If you think the Tim Ryan types show animosity towards Pelosi, try doing a search of Breitbart articles about Paul Ryan.

And, to put a finer point on it, assume that the Republicans lose the House and then the White House.

You think Paul Ryan would be a consensus champion to those desperate on their side to regain power?

[Hortensis]

169. Oh, now she's irrelevant? Then what's your problem?

And not only do I not think anything about Tim Ryan one way or the other since these matters are decided by their peers, who know them both, but I'm not interested in drawing false equivalencies between us and Breitbart. (What's THAT about?)

[geek tragedy]

171. Worst of both worlds in terms of efficacy.

A net drag on other House races, not able to accomplish anything because minority party.

Point re: Breitbart and Ryan is that Congessional leaders are expected to take fire from their own side. Also, I would be comparing myself to Breitbart in that scenario, which I obviously don't.

[Hortensis]

173. Okay. Sorry for misunderstanding. Actually, though,

normally our parties are very different regarding taking fire from their own side.

Right now the Reps are unusually fractured, courtesy of the Kochs' extremist Freedom caucus's intransigence. But even now the Rep Party is, as it always has been, authoritarian, each division run top-down by its leaders. It members more normally fall in as a single big group--the right's big advantage of course--to support their leaders' decisions.

Of course, Democrats are very different. Liberals especially don't do authoritarianism. And left-wing radicals in every century, whatever the party name they belong to, always try (and fail) to take over and run things "right." Pelosi's job hasn't always been likened to herding cats for nothing, and, as you say, trying to minimize and deal with internal attacks by forming successful coalitions is a normal part of the job.

[ehrnst]

129. Being selected by her peers as Minority Leader isn't about her "swing district status"

It's about the skills she brings to that job that make her the choice of her peers. And along with baggage, politicians acquire experience.

Was Gephart selected on the basis of whether his district was a swing district or not?

[geek tragedy]

137. Democrats place way too much weight on seniority when it comes to picking leaders.

her experience is pretty goddamn worthless without a majority. Like the world's best steering wheel attached to a car on cinder blocks in someone's driveway.

[ehrnst]

160. On what do you base your opinion that "experience is pretty goddamned worthless without a majority"

when it comes to Democrats?

One would think that is when it is needed the most.

[Blue_Tires]

141. So name somebody to take over then, if you're so smart...

[Blue_Tires]

142. I'm in Virginia and Pelosi's name has never ever come up...

[geek tragedy]

145. What Congressional District? nt

[Blue_Tires]

149. 2nd (Scott Taylor-R)

Normally, you gotta be a veteran to even think about getting elected here, and Taylor is a former Navy SEAL so he'll probably have his seat for as long as he wants...

[geek tragedy]

151. That district has had a Democrat represent it once in the past 9 elections.

What happened when there was a Democratic incumbent?

http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2010/oct/25/scott-rigell/nye-voted-lockstep-nancy-pelosi-83-percent/

People in prominent positions in the party may gain governing experience, but politically they always take on water and become liabilities.

[Blue_Tires]

157. Nye actually (like a fucking moron) tried to distance himself from Ocare

When he should have been embracing it, which made him look doubly weak... And the teabaggers were created and all their screechy jibberish really made him meek and pliant during the race.

Rigell was some tea party Ford salesman who only got elected because he swore up and down in his commercials that he'd get Obamacare "declared unconstitutional&quot !)... Yeah, I know, don't get me started, but demoralized repubs lapped it up, and the tea party was the cool thing to be a part of then, so Nye lost big.

Ocare was the tool used to stir up voter anger against Dems, not Pelosi... We also had our district gerrymandered awhile back so most of the black votes got consolidated in an already safe district (Bobby Scott), but that's still tied up in the courts, I think

[bettyellen]

9. Cultural political polarization has nothing to do with gender- or SF liberals?!?!?

Seriously?

[geek tragedy]

11. "San Francisco liberals" plays up both cultural and geographic resentments.

San Francisco is a gated community for millionaires, still associated with the counterculture of the 1960's (good luck finding someone that interesting there these days, of course)

[bettyellen]

16. San Francisco is a thriving beautiful city that still has a middle class and

Great satellite towns and burbs. I'm not down with this cultural ignorance is bliss crap. It's anti woman, and foolish. Rural areas are not morally superior.
Sorry.

[geek tragedy]

19. Tired of all the winning?

If there were enough votes in San Francisco and Brooklyn for us to win elections, that would be lovely.

But there aren't.

[bettyellen]

21. Tired of listening to Dems quote Trump and company without irony. Wow.

[geek tragedy]

26. You think Tr*mp created the conditions that allowed him to 'win?'

The Democratic party's standing amongst white populist voters had to have fallen into severe rot in order to allow someone like that to take advantage.

So, question becomes, do you try to win over Obama-Tr*mp voters, or keep chasing Romney voters who are skeptical of Tr*mp?

[bettyellen]

31. I think trite phrases like "tired of winning" don't help you sound serious.

I'm kind of sick of all the meaningless buzzwords and finger pointing. I'm tired of any lame excuse used to advance this "populist" anti establishment agenda.

And yeah I think team Trump created conditions in the media and online where idiots who don't understand politics were bamboozled. I think he used hacked info and collaborated with Russian bots to do that. I think buying into their memes or framing in any way is stupid.

He's a fake and a failure, not someone we need to take lessons from.

[sweetloukillbot]

81. It's also anti-gay

There's a reason "San Francisco" is used as an example of liberal decadance, and it's more than just Pelosi.

[bettyellen]

99. I'm sorry? I think SF is pretty diverse but that's only my experience.

[sweetloukillbot]

100. It is more diverse, but when Republicans say "San Francisco values" they mean teh gay

Not disagreeing with you, more expanding.
In Republican speak
New York means "Jewish"
Smalltown means "white"
urban/inner city means "black"
San Francisco means "gay"

[bettyellen]

115. Ohhhh, yeah of course! And LA is Sodom and Gomorrah

[ehrnst]

57. Yeah, and Obama played up cultural and geographical resentments.

Did Democrats turn on him and complain about him for that reason the way some are doing about Pelosi?

[stonecutter357]

24. 23 replies, 201 views this i hate nancy OP'S are not going very well....

[Nonhlanhla]

25. What's with all the hit jobs on Nancy Pelosi today?

Seems almost orchestrated...

[bettyellen]

33. Looks very orchestrated.

[leftstreet]

40. Meh. People are just trying to understand the loss

This happens all the time. It's especially hard on a geographically wide message forum when people don't understand the details of a more local election.

Everyone gets excited, the excitement builds huge momentum for a win, then a loss seems even worse.

Well, worse still because...Trump

[AngryAmish]

41. What time is it in Moscow?

[geek tragedy]

48. It's because Congressional Democrats are complaining out loud nt

[ehrnst]

78. Especially the ones who lost the leadership election to her.... (nt)

[geek tragedy]

104. yes, but there are also some who voted for her in the last leadership

election who are having buyer's remorse.

The main job of a minority party leader is to help make the case why voters seeking change and reform should vote for her party. Fairly or not, none of the Democrats' top 3 leaders are able to make that case.

[ehrnst]

120. My understanding of the job of the minority party house leader is

-Developing the minority position
-Negotiating with the majority party
-Directing minority caucus activities on the chamber floor
-Leading debate for the minority

Not seeing "making the case why voters seeking change and reform should voter for her party" listed there.

And again - so why is there a DCCC? Their stated purpose is to get Dems elected to the house. Do they know that's actually the job of the Minority Leader?



And yes, Tim Ryan, who was defeated by 2/3 is leading the charge against Pelosi.

[geek tragedy]

124. None of those functions are relevant, or particularly hard to accomplish.

Minority position is to vote against what the majority wants.

There are no negotiations with the majority party.

Minority party does nothing on the house floor, it's powerless.

No one pays attention to what minority party says in debate.

Minority party is irrelevant until it becomes the majority party.

Different story in the Senate obviously.

[ehrnst]

126. The functions of the DCCC? Not clear on what functions you are referring to. (nt)

[geek tragedy]

136. job #1 of the minoriyt party leaderhip is to not be a liability in close elections

in swing districts

[ehrnst]

164. Still didn't answer the question.

Here it is again:

You wrote: "None of those functions are relevant, or particularly hard to accomplish."

You replied: job #1 of the minoriyt party leaderhip is to not be a liability in close elections

in swing districts.

What functions are you talking about?

[geek tragedy]

170. Negotiating with majority, leading floor debate etc nt

[ehrnst]

174. Not relevant? Not hard to accomplish?

Then why do they elect someone to do it, instead of just taking turns?

Why even have a minority "leader" at all, if it's such a no-brainer?

[geek tragedy]

175. Pelosi was the incumbent.

She was elected Speaker and held onto the # slot afterwards.

She was a phenomenal Speaker, and that obviously earned her some good will amongst members.


There is a reason why restaurants and hotels that have fallen out of favor put up "under new management" signs.

[lapucelle]

193. CA voters chose Pelosi

for the Congressional seat she occupies; Democratic caucus members chose Pelosi as leader by a 2:1 margin in their election.

Pelosi has been "holding on" to the slot because the constituencies involved keep electing her. There is nothing more elite than the presumption that it's acceptable to substitute one's "superior" judgment for that of the actual voters.

In addition, if the disqualification for holding a leadership position consists of "divisive/polarizing" and "ancient", then that test needs to be applied across the board, including to Senate leadership.

[geek tragedy]

196. The procedural/governing skill set is a lot more relevant

for Senate minority.

[lapucelle]

198. So it's the "has an apocryphal skill set" for some

versus the "is ancient and divisive" standard for others.

Kinda like this:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/all-animals-are-equal--but-some-animals-are-more-equal-than-others

[geek tragedy]

201. Senate and House have radically different rules

Filibuster etc

[La Lioness Priyanka]

49. Yup

[Freethinker65]

27. Um? They voted for an Urban Billionaire...

The GOP won by using shock doctrine type fear on a targeted voting population.

The Democrats need to find a way to combat that, but dumping strong democratic leaders is not the answer and, in fact, plays right into the GOPs hands.

[JHan]

32. it also allows them to continually control the narrative.

They've been doing this for over 30 years now and we still haven't got a clue it seems.

[Fait Accompli]

35. The party deserpately needs fresh leadership (and fresh blood in general), BUT -

I fear that if we replace Pelosi right now that the right will claim it's a huge victory and it's one they will never stop hoisting above themselves. I can see Trump's sexist tweets now. Do we give into what they want and concede a victory to them and grin and bear it? Or do we just keep doing what we're doing and hope that it magically works in 2018? Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

[oberliner]

39. Yes, absolutely

Her top issues are education and health care, which are of primary importance to those folks.

[nini]

42. "urban millionaires"

Yep..that's all that San Francisco has.

AND even if it was.. they vote the right way and are more liberal than most places in this country.

big fail

[pnwmom]

43. They will find reasons to hate ANYONE who successfully leads our party,

just as they found reasons to hate Obama.

[peggysue2]

128. Exactly!

Allow the Republicans to punt Pelosi to the curb, they'll move on to the next Democratic leader to take down in a similar fashion. Eating our own is not a winning strategy.

[tinrobot]

45. Who would you suggest as a replacement?

Doubt you could find someone better.

[Kolesar]

133. Tim Ryan

just kidding :duck:

[bresue]

46. Now, ask the same questions to Shuman....

She is strong, she is very popular, she speaks for us...urban millionaires? A millionaire can be a dem too....Buffet is a very strong democrat!

So, I am unsure what your questions refer to.

[blueinredohio]

47. I don't vote depending on who is minority leader

or if the democratic candidate is liberal, progressive or anything else. I vote for them because they're democrats.

[ehrnst]

51. She's the only House Minority Leader that has ever been criticized for this.

Why is it suddenly her responsibility to do all those things that are not in the job description.

What makes her different from all the previous Minority leaders?

What is it....

[Docreed2003]

112. While I agree with your positions on Nancy

It not true that she's the first to face this type of criticism. Gephardt faced the same type of criticism after the 2002 midterms after a slew of losses. That's how Nancy came into her position as minority leader in the first place.

That being said, the overreaction here to a loss in a crimson red district is astounding. The performance of Ossoff clearly shows strong voter discontent with the current state of affairs in the country

[ehrnst]

117. OK. Thanks for the info - I stand corrected.

So long as the House Dems think she's the best person to lead, I will defer to their judgement.

And I agree about the overreaction to the Ossoff loss. There seems to be a lot need to point fingers of blame at other Dems now that Hillary is out of politics.

[Docreed2003]

122. It's infuriating and frustrating for sure...

Have a good day!

[BeyondGeography]

53. There's far more resistance to Pelosi w/in the D House caucus

than there is here.

Fortunately.

[ehrnst]

55. What are the numbers on that?

I haven't seen them. Please share.

[BeyondGeography]

64. 63 people voted against her in Jan.

More would now, undoubtedly. She could probably still win 60-40. Here, the let's-move-on from Pelosi threads get about 10% support. Why are we so resistant to change, especially when things aren't working the way they are?

[ehrnst]

67. She has far less resistance than support, clearly - 134 support to 63 resistance.

And where do you get the "10%" of anti-Pelosi posts here on DU stat?

[BeyondGeography]

69. Look at this thread

10% is probably generous. What's with all the knee-jerk conformity?

[ehrnst]

73. So you are getting your stats for all of DU from this thread? Faulty sampling.

Also, pointing out what is and is not her responsibility isn't knee-jerk conformity. It's called fact checking.

And what's with all the bashing of this particular Minority Leader for not taking responsibility for things that aren't in her job description to be responsible for?

What makes her different than previous leaders who were not held responsible for this - or from the Chairman of the DCCC, whose actual job it is to oversee house elections of Democrats, who is not being held responsible at ALL by those here who seem to think that was Pelosi's job that she fell down on?

Hint. It's institutional, and those who suffer from it don't think they do.

[BeyondGeography]

75. Our seniority rules in the House are antiquated and that's on Pelosi

We have a pathetic situation in Judiciary that could have easily been avoided with better leadership from her:

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/12/democrats-judiciary-john-conyers-zoe-lofgren-jerry-nadler-239385

Out of curiosity, what would it take for you to think we need a new Leader in the House? Would losing in 2018 do it for you?

[ehrnst]

80. You mean the Pelosi that suggested that less experienced people should be encouraged?

So she has the magic wand that makes everyone vote the way she wants them to, and that's why things are the way they are, and the others who are responsible for those appointments are not?

Since I am not in the House of Representatives, I don't have the direct experience of working with other members, so I don't claim to know who is best suited for that job. I defer to those who are qualified and authorized to determine that.


In any case, supporting the Democratic house candidates in 2018 is the job of Rep Lujan, and not the Minority Leader. I have yet to see you actually include him in your discussions of what is going wrong in the house elections - just the current Minority Leader.

http://dccc.org/about/

Again, you seem to have some misinformation on what the Minority Leader's job actually is and isn't. But that doesn't stop you from heaping responsibility for what isn't her job on her.

[KTM]

70. Here's an article covering the Minority Leader vote

Its an interesting read, which has some good arguments from both sides:

"But Pelosi’s margin of victory, 134 votes to 63 for Ryan, signaled a large degree of discontent with her leadership after 14 years atop the caucus and, more broadly, with the Democratic policy agenda that many lawmakers say has grown stale. While she cleared her self-declared margin of victory, a two-thirds majority, many Democrats were stunned that almost a third of the caucus was willing to vote for a backbench lawmaker with no major policy or political experience.

Many were left wondering whether a more seasoned Democrat could have actually toppled Pelosi, with several privately suggesting these next two years would have to be Pelosi’s last as leader. Ryan’s 63 votes marked the largest bloc of opposition Pelosi has faced since winning a deputy leadership position 15 years ago that set her on a course to become the first female House speaker."

"Republicans, after years of vilifying Pelosi’s West Coast liberalism, were gleeful at the stasis among Democratic leaders. The National Republican Congressional Committee immediately hung a “Congrats Nancy!” poster atop a “Hire Pelosi” banner that had been affixed to Republican National Committee headquarters this week."

"Others remain upset at Pelosi’s control of the House campaign arm, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, which has overseen a series of poor election performances. “We should have been recruiting earlier, we should have better targeting. I think our messaging was off,” Rep. Ruben Gallego (D-Ariz.) said Tuesday in an interview."

On the other hand, many may not realize that the detractors are moderates, not Bernie-style lefties:

"“Nothing’s going to change anytime soon. We’re going to be in the minority for the next 15 years,” said Rep. Kurt Schrader (D-Ore.), co-chairman of the Blue Dog Coalition, a centrist group. He added that Democrats need to develop “a farm team that’s not just the socialist side of our party.”"

As to why so many here disagree... well, for one I think many who argue against her here dont realize that a lot of the politicians making that argument in DC are actually Blue Dogs, not the FDR style leaders they hope for; also DU skews heavily towards the older age brackets, who have a broader view of the left's political history and who also tend to be less supportive of dramatic change.

[ehrnst]

77. Are you comparing Pelosi to Conyers?

It's up to a Democratic nominating committee to appoint a congressperson to a Standing Committee.

If his constiuents keep voting him into office, and his peers continue to support him in that position, then why should he step aside?

So can you tell me how Pelosi is "part of the problem" and what exactly the problem is that you see her being part of?

Also - the Caucus selects the whip and floor leaders - not Pelosi, so how is it that "she is surrounding herself' with with "older people" when she only gets one vote?

You have made some statements that indicate they are based on incomplete or faulty information on how the selection process works. Note, I didn't call it ageism or sexism - just factually deficient.

And of course when she makes an effort to expand leadership opportunities to less experienced people, you call it a "jive vice chair bone" which clearly indicates that you think she's also worthy of criticism. Sounds like she's damned if she does, and damned if she does.

Why is that?

[ehrnst]

74. Did others in the past who didn't win the leadership position go out and trash the person who did?

If so, can you give me an example of one that felt so free to do so as Ryan does?

[ebbie15644]

56. Does she has to? It's up to her district to decide if she represents them

We have men in charge of the the dem party ask them if they are a fair representation

[tazkcmo]

58. If she did relate to the"left-behinders"

They wouldn't be left behind, they'd be enjoying progress under a Democratic administration.

Go Rep Pelosi! Do what you do and keep doing it well!

[alarimer]

59. It's not her job to do those things.

That is the job of the people who run campaigns and the DNC.

Throwing over Nancy Pelosi would just be giving in to Republican propaganda. It means they win. So fuck that.

[Demsrule86]

62. She does her job...in the House and yes it does relate to her gender.

She is extremely effective and the GOP (including Trump) want her gone ...and have tricked some Dems and independents into mouthing their talking points...very foolish...you mentioned much that was not her job....and any effective leader will be demonized...Dems need to learn how not to be tricked by the other side.

[NurseJackie]

65. Good fucking grief! STOP IT!

[L. Coyote]

71. Did Nancy Pelosi helping insure 30 million Americans make you ask these questions?

My question does not relate to gender, just the incredible record of a very intelligent, accomplished leader.

[delisen]

76. Nancy Pelosi is great & role model for girls

I f one is a democrat who doesn't have the guts to stand up for Pelosi when Republicans try to demonize her, maybe one need to grow a stronger democratic spine.

Is it hard to point out to Republican voters that Mitch McConnell is a multimillionaire and that his state of Kentucky has the most children with decaying teeth and that Kentucky adults have the most missing teeth?

Is it hard to point out to all the Republicans voters who are now shocked they might lose their aCA and Medicaid insurance that Nancy Pelosi was responsible for getting their healthcare passed?

Pelosi is one of the many reason California is an economic powerhouse. Unlike amcconnell she works for, not against, the people of her state.

[LaydeeBug]

79. It is a right wing talking point that Democrats need rebranding. We don't. They need to stop

committing treason.

Please stop gaslighting the left with this bullshit.

[BumRushDaShow]

82. Nancy Pelosi was born and raised in Baltimore, MD

and her father was mayor there.



Baltimore is really no different from any midwestern/western city (I have been to a bunch including Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago, St. Louis, Denver, Dallas, Houston) in terms of blue collar/working class. She may be in SF with her husband now but you don't forget your roots.

[loyalsister]

83. Fair questions

But, I think we should be looking at the long game. I don't think demonizing her as many Democrats have is helpful. I would like to see that effort abandoned, but also see some acknowledgement of the validity of those questions.
I hope some of the party elders will begin to consider retirement and mentor some Dems who will be able to work toward long term goals on the current field, with a sense that they will see them through. I think many congress members are preoccupied with defending legacies and reaching a finish line with goals formulated 30+ yrs. ago without much update.

[Bradical79]

85. I'm not sure what Nancy Pelosi has to do with our problems here in Ohio

Our issues are with the local party, gerrymandering, and overall strategy that had nothing to do with Pelosi.

[ismnotwasm]

87. What do you think?

I'm pursuing her page here. What are "left behinds" and what kind of new way of thinking do you mean? The party's need to "defuse cultural-political polarization? Please specify. You are not talking about so-called "identity politics", I know, so do you mean getting along with republicans or more likely, reaching out to non-voters? I think she makes a good case as being "for the people", but she ~is~ an urban millionaire. San Francisco is a great city, full of problems and valued history and beauty and diversity--is it bad optics to come from San Francisco?

http://www.democraticleader.gov

Asking questions is great, and no, is not gender specific, but these particular question are too vague. If we want Pelosi to change, or too address particular topics, specifics are better to reach out with.

[JustAnotherGen]

88. She helps in NJ this year

I'll be at a 'first in' town hall with several folks who would like to run in the 7th district tonight - two are women. I know they both have the attitude of 'if they hate her then I want to be like her'.

I've heard this no fewer than nine times in the past week at three different face to face venues for the Democratic Party and three of those venues/meetings were targeted towards this year's HUGE NJ race.

I think I want everything re Pelosi tabled until AFTER NJ hands the Trump Agenda its ass on a platter and completely repudiates the deplorables.

Yes - I'm asking Michigan and Ohio to stay back for just four more month so we can secure Democratic Leadership top down to council people in small boroughs this November.

She's helping us - and this is the year we elect to UNgerrymander NJ.

It's really important.

[ismnotwasm]

90. Do you know what he means by "left behinds"?

I don't know that term

[JustAnotherGen]

92. I *think*

It speaks to the idea that there are folks who were left behind during the recession who are or
WERE in blue collar positions.

However - NJ was left behind. The amount of tax dollars we pay into the Fed has not decreased and we aren't getting a higher kickback from Fed Gov.

http://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2017/04/jersey-economy-is-better-than-he-found-it-barely-111237

This is politico in April -

"Despite the spate of positive jobs reports in recent months, the reality is New Jersey’s economic recovery from the Great Recession has been among the slowest in the nation — the eighth worst, according to a POLITICO analysis of net job growth since the recession’s beginning in January 2008. It lags behind neighboring New York and Pennsylvania and is comparable to states like West Virginia, Mississippi, Alabama and New Mexico.


New Jersey's economic growth has been slower than the nation's since the early 1990s, said Charles Steindel, who was Christie’s chief economist from 2010 to 2014. That's mainly a function of larger economic forces over which politicians have little control, he said.

“New Jersey’s economy consistently grows a half to one percent slower than the national economy. That’s been going on for a quarter century or more," Steindel said. "There’s nothing new except we had a deep recession and it took awhile for the economy to recover."

Um - it's the turn of ALL workers in NJ to decimate the GOP. We got left behind too. It just doesn't show in the land of haves and have nots.

Well - except for the Richie Rich Guys with Trump stickers plastering their Porsches.

[ismnotwasm]

97. Ok that makes sense

I'm a bit confused by the wording

[Proud Liberal Dem]

89. Does Tim Ryan or somebody else?

[Adrahil]

95. So the Don the Con...

has PACKED his cabinet with urban millionaires. He himself is the ULTIMATE "urban millionaire." This argument is, IMO, hogwash.

[jalan48]

96. What about those wealthy Republicans? Why aren't they dragging down their party?

Perhaps it's because the right wing media, especially talk radio, has been effective in framing the narrative. Nancy Pelosi bad, rich Republicans invisible.

[LittleBlue]

98. All the replies seem pretty emotional and illogical

They seem to break down into

1) Did you vote for her? Are you in her district?

Ignoring that some are asking for new leadership, not Pelosi's resignation from congress. The voters from her district don't decide House Minority Leader.

2) Oh, that's how it is? Maybe you're a (insert personal attack insinuating that OP/critics are right wing plants)

It's possible to vote Democrat but also want new leadership. It's not like we're winning much nowadays anyway.

3) That's sexist!

See example 2.

4) I stand with (some media personality or other politician) in backing Pelosi.

Yeah, but pointing to someone's thinkpiece is not a cogent argument in favor of keeping Pelosi.



I don't even dislike Pelosi, she's given me some of the best times since I started voting. It's okay to freshen up the brand every decade (that's how long she's been leading us in the House). These are questions one can ask in a healthy democracy. In Britain it's pretty common for the voters to suggest different party leadership (it's encouraged even!) and nobody gets their heads torn off for doing so.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

101. What do you mean by "embrace change" and "adopt new ways of thinking"?

[hatrack]

102. This is 86-proof bullshit

.

[kacekwl]

105. Nonsense, if they are left behind

it's because they chose to be left behind. Does anyone think the GOP is going to turn around and pick them up.

[nini]

111. Who the hell can be the ONE person EVERY liberal will approve of?

[Awsi Dooger]

116. My Republican friends don't know much of anything

They do know the name Nancy Pelosi. It's never the first thing they mention but the script seldom changes much. When we are arguing and they've run out of ammo, which is always fairly early, they summon the name Nancy Pelosi and rant about her for a few sentences. Likewise with my sister the registered Republican. It obviously sourced from her ex-husband because I used to hear him use Pelosi's name while flailing his arms. My departed dad was so dismayed she married that guy: "Can you believe this is what she is subjected to at home?" My sister and I have never been close but she wasn't a simpleton ranting hateful Republican until that marriage. She wasn't a Republican at all.

Something happened in the past 5 years. Unmistakable. We lost those white populist and working class males long before Trump became the nominee. I've known those tunnel vision conservatives since moving to Las Vegas and the sportsbook scene in 1984. I don't see them as much anymore but when I am in town for a month or two they make sure to seek me out and denounce Democrats as even more despicable than ever. I'm convinced it has something to do with Obamacare and perceived impact on small business but I'd like to see polling on that.

One thing for sure...we don't do a good job of saving a half percent here and half percent there. I imagine that's what geek tragedy is getting at. In Las Vegas I can easily dump by win likelihood from let's say 56% to below the break even point simply by using idiotic tactics like always settling for the worst point spread or money line available, instead of the best. Democratic politicians and strategists seem to have perfected that type of masochism in their own field. Can you imagine a Republican nominee essentially forfeiting the presidency by campaigning in the wrong states? Taking some for granted? We seemingly use the machines and Russia as deflections while preferring to ignore how moronic our strategy was.

During the '80s and '90s I didn't hear those simplistic angry friends of mine ranting about Foley or Gephardt. I will make it about gender. White males respect white males. We would be saving a percent or so without doing anything else. Just my instincts. It has nothing to do with how I feel about Pelosi or how she does her job. This is a bottom line venture. In the meantime our commercial campaigns are terrible, we throw out words like "Meaner" with seemingly no clue how lame it is, and every other decision is designed to steady grind toward failure. The other side relies on fake news and we say nothing about it, as if we're terrified of backlash and everything except the status quo.

[ismnotwasm]

132. What makes you think Democrats don't call out the "fake news" bullshit?

The ones I'm following not only do that--they say things like republicans are killing people with their healthcare plan. That they could care less about clean water. Or air. Who are these Democrats that say nothing?
I'm open to criticism, I'm open to suggestions for improvement, but in a volitile situation that has many factors, phrasing like "status quo" quickly lose real meaning. We parrot each other--that's what humans do, I get that.

I like the OP of this thread. He thinks things out, he stands up for what he believes and I understand his point, I think--I have doubts-about my understanding because of the vagueness of the questions.

We certainly need to monitor ourselves and our party and address flaws, but we're are not doing a good job because we are not being specific--or, when we are specific, we leave out a major point, Depending on our personal bias. When someone brings up that major point--instraad of saying "yes, this is also very important" we get defensive. This is played out all over the place, not just DU.

I think we should start with the Democratic Party platform.

https://www.democrats.org/party-platform

Now, this platform looks good to me, I believe in it and I donate to my states Democratic Party every month--but if we go through point by point--I bet we find areas where we could improve our messaging significantly. Pelosi's own platform mirrors this one. I bet we can find areas to improve messaging in hers are well. Pelosi is minority leader--I think she's doing a good job. That doesnt mean she can't do better.

[bettyellen]

123. None of that is her job, we'd have to purge all the women in leadership to make the GOP happy and

We're better than that. They don't get to shape the party.
Just nope.

[bresue]

131. I do not understand these Pelosi questions...and enough!!!

Pelosi is not the only Dem leader in the US. And even if she stepped down from house leader, the GOP would go after another leader.

Pelosi does not direct the party ideology, nor does she restrict what other Dem leadership may advocate...for example, she has not made a lot of comments against Bernie or Sen Warren's single payer.

I am in the mid-west and farming areas...and Pelosi is my hero! She defends and breaks through the Rub rhetoric very smartly and has for years. We need someone in leadership that can cut through the bullshit and shine a light on their lies.

[tonyt53]

138. Odd how I never heard people question where Ted Kennedy was from or his family money.

[Blue_Tires]

140. Last I checked, Trump was an urban billionaire

who lived his entire life in a liberal stronghold... And yet that didn't turn off middle America, did it?

[geek tragedy]

154. Tr*mp speaks the language of uneducated white dumbasses nt

[Jakes Progress]

144. To do that, she would need to put on a hood

and burn a few crosses.

Catch up. Those "left-behinds" are using the economy and their desperation as an excuse for their racism, homophobia, sexism, and xenophobia.

[LanternWaste]

147. I'd have to see both the numbers and the analysis of those numbers

I'd have to see both the numbers and an objective analysis of those numbers before I imply she's too experienced to be of any use.

[matt819]

159. One of the problems

is that Dems talk to voters as adults. Life is complicated. There must be trade-offs and compromises. You can't always get what you want (great, now that will be running through my head all night). Health care is expensive and not always what you need when and where you need it. Complicated. Russia. North Korea. Christians in Muslim countries. Muslims in Christian countries. Special forces in all countries. Nuance. Domestic vs. Foreign terrorism. VA. Drug prices. Illegal drug use and addiction care. Global climate change is real. You may not like it, but it's real, and your fellow Americans are going to suffer. As are millions around the world. And those millions are going to be heading our way as climate refugees. It's hard. Really. We're not joking. It's hard. And it's complicated, and smart people are needed.

Republicans: Lock her up. Build that wall. Obama bad. Muslims bad.

How do you get these points across to Ohio and Pennsylvania and the other states that offset the popular vote with key electoral votes? Sure, GOTV is critical nationwide. But how do you penetrate the closed and made up minds in Fox world? How do you get through to people who somehow think we can return to an America that never really existed. And even if it did, its population was around 1/3 of what it is now, and gas was $.10 a gallon. That's now the stuff of hazy, gauzy historical novels, even if you lived through it.

[BainsBane]

161. Nor do they relate to the job of Minority Leader

Last edited Wed Jun 28, 2017, 06:19 PM - Edit history (1)

Are you really so anxious to have Democrats start peeling off and vote for Trump's legislation? Her job isn't to entertain Republican voters or you. It's to hold the caucus together.

This OP represents precisely what is wrong with American politics. People care too much about image and messaging and not enough about substance and legislation. Fortunately, those unconcerned with the workings of congress don't vote for minority leader. That falls to congresspeople, not Nielsen ratings.

Besides, you got change: Donald Trump. That is precisely what happens in a country of voters focused on contentless slogans rather than policy. They get a dysfunctional government creeping toward authoritarianism. When voters focus relentlessly on slogans, image, and personality, they get vapid leaders, TV personalities rather than legislators or statesmen.

The DCCC, not the House Minority leader, is in charge of congressional campaigns. Her job isn't to entertain you or the precious white male Republicans some have decided are more important than the Democratic base who lack their means and privilege.

Branding is a fine term to use if one wants to turn government into a Madison Avenue corporation, even more so than it already is. It's a corporate term used to sell crap no one needs or wants. I would like to see voters quit wishing for glitzy crap and focus on substance, something that matters. The irony is for all the hue and cry about corporatism and neoliberalism, the demands are to make government more like a media corporations, focused on entertaining rather than substance.

You're pissed off Nancy Pelosi focuses on keeping the Democratic caucus in line rather than being a good entertainer. Too bad. Turn the channel. Find something else to do. Quit worrying that the politicians don't dance fast enough to suit you. Let them do their jobs.

You'll get your wish soon enough anyway. Before long government will be filled entirely with media personalities, because when a voting public cares most about performance and image, they get leaders who do nothing but that. Democracy won't survive, but what can that compare to fresh-faced TV entertainers who deliver the right lines on cue?

[betsuni]

168. I LOVE THIS

[EffieBlack]

194. I think I'm in love with you ...

[Starry Messenger]

165. San Francisco has its own health care and $15 minimum wage.

The whole state of CA passed a Millionaire's tax--twice.

What progressive legislation does this putative new blood bring to the table? Michigan and Ohio should solve their own problems before acting like they are the future of the party. One lost unionism and the other one just barely hung on to theirs. Maybe they should ask themselves why they are shitting on the state/city with some of the highest levels of unionism in the United States. Maybe those "left-behinds" should stop voting to shoot themselves in the ass.

Forgive me if I'm not impressed by the "new blood" clawing at Nancy Pelosi and their "new ways of thinking."

[displacedtexan]

172. Good grief. She's from Baltimore's Little Italy...

...where they call her the "prodigal hon." She's the first female Speaker of the House and deserves some damned respect.

[geek tragedy]

178. She was a fantastic Speaker.

But the party needs new blood in the leadership. Right now the Dem caucus is a gerontocracy.

[treestar]

176. She is elected by her district

and the Democrats elected there elect her as minority leader. Her job has to do with federal legislating.

Letting the right demonize her is ridiculous.

[Alice11111]

177. Nancy pelosi helps in way no one can see. Backroom

Negotiations. She knows every vote. No secrets.
We need her. She is very experienced.

[geek tragedy]

180. There are no backroom negotiations for the

minority party in the House.

Minority party makes noise and gets run over.

[Stargleamer]

181. Well what Democrat is doing the things you want Nancy Pelosi to be doing?

Tammy Duckworth? Kamala Harris? Barbara Lee?

What is Nancy Pelosi doing or saying that you don't want her to do?

OR

What is she not doing or saying that you would like her to?

[gollygee]

182. People in rural Ohio appear to be fine voting for millionaires.

Wealth does not appear to be the issue.

Also, this is irrelevant in regard to her job. It might be a reason not to support her running for POTUS though.

[bigtree]

183. you've really gone over the cliff with this one

[geek tragedy]

190. Can you name the last time a former Speaker

became Speaker once again?

For that matter, when was the last time did an outgoing Speaker become Minority Leader?

Pelosi performed admirably during her time at the top. But time for her and Steny to let the next generation take over.

Democrats have lost 4 straight Congressional elections under her watch. Zero accountability.

[spooky3]

187. They ALL relate to her gender if they are not questions that

(A) pertain directly to her current job and

(B) have not typically been raised about men in her position.

I have been around for quite a few Congresses now, and I can't remember a time that any male minority leader was both demonized baselessly by Republicans AND then the demonization was enabled by Dems instead of counterattacked.

[geek tragedy]

192. I can't remember a Speaker who fought to remain

Minority Leader after his/her Speakership ended.

Can you?

[Alice11111]

189. Well, this I know, the "new blood" refused to go into

Wisconsin, Michigan and parts of Penn. Michel Moore was begging and so were the candidates. New blood didn't want to stir the Repubs up? $':,??. New Blood tuned down leaders w a cavalier attitude, at best. We went down, begging for help, under the heavy hand of ,we are millennials and we know best. I worked in the Senate camp for the close elections. I've worked in Dem elections since I was in college. Where was the DNC? The people came forward like never before on the ground, but the official organizations, were worse than useless. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. They did neither.
In fact, until R Maddow calls them out several times, they still don't.The philosopher Kings. Ding me. I don't care, Im a strong loyal Dem for life, but this speech surpressed business of having to lie (the law calls, leaving out material facts), to protect incompetent Dems who really hurt he party is counterproductive. There are both good and incompetent people out there. There need to be discussions, so we will have a national party that helps us, instead of hurts us.

I can feel it coming, purists, I'm not saying Hill lost because of the party. There were 20 or so reasons, the biggest being Comey, cheating, the Russians, and Prez Obama's failure to publically call it out, or even let Comey. Plus, Obama was bullied by MM. Sickening and sad. It's not like he hadn't had experience. He knew what these Repubs rabid dogs are like.

[geek tragedy]

191. Team Hillary was not 'new blood.' nt

[pnwmom]

195. Her JOB is to represent her district and to work with the Dems in Congress.

And she's doing very well in her actual job.

She is not supposed to be the poster girl of the whole party.

[Hekate]

197. Is Nancy Pelosi running in Ohio or Michigan?

Or is it just another round of GOP PAC ads demonizing the first Dem name they pull out of their (ahem) hat? And the fact that she's a woman is just a coinkydink... Bet you dollars to holes in donuts that the next Dem whose turn in the barrel is Kamala Harris or Elizabeth Warren. Just another coincidence, of course.

Jmho, but if we don't stand up for our own, who will ever stand up for us?