Jill Stein's latest victory lap demonstrates she was in favor of Trump the entire time.

[DanTex]

Apparently there are still some DUers that don't understand what the Green Party's purpose is. So let me explain.

There are two reasons, only two, that people run for federal office under the Green Party. The first is personal ego and enrichment (and free trips to Russia). The second is to help Republicans defeat Democrats. That's it.

It never has anything to do with policy. Or with giving voters another "choice". The Green Party isn't a political choice any more than a lottery ticket is a retirement plan. And the people selling you the Green Party know that, just like the ones selling you lottery tickets do. Actually that's not fair to lottery tickets. Some people have won the lottery. But in 20+ years of trying, no Green has come anywhere close to winning a house or senate seat or a single electoral vote. Blowing your money on lottery tickets is more rational than blowing your vote on the Green Party.

With Jill Stein, if she actually believed any of her own bullshit, she would be utterly devastated by the election. First, she gets about 1% of the vote. Second, the guy who wins proceeds to do the opposite of everything in the Green Platform. The Greens like to bash Dems about how bad the Dems did, but the Dems got 40 times as many votes in November. Also the Dems hold infinitely more congressional seats than the Green party ever has and ever will.

But, facing this epic defeat and humiliating showing, Stein is (still) out bragging about the "critical role" she played. This is a straightforward admission that her objective all along was not President Stein, but President Trump, and that she feels her siphoning away votes from Dems and convincing gullible alt-leftists that Trump was the lesser evil was critical to Trump's victory.

She wanted Trump to win, she helped Trump win, and now she's happy about it. She's a Trump ally, period.

[hrmjustin]

1. Stop it Dan, you're offending our Stein fans!

[dlk]

2. Stein's Having Dinner With Putin Was Telling

As a private citizen, why would Stein have dinner with Putin, Mike Flynn, et al? These men are not exactly Democratic allies. "Middle East Peace" was only a cover. What actual steps toward middle east peace were ever discussed or implemented? In addition, Jill's ongoing misogynistic comments about Hillary were a dead giveaway as to her true motives.

[Docreed2003]

8. Considering her thoughts on Syria, I think it's safe to assume who...

Was staking out the talking points in that "dinner".

Does Jill Stein's position on Allepo and Syria sound "progressive" to anyone here??

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/10/06/the-one-issue-that-shows-exactly-why-gary-johnson-and-jill-stein-havent-caught-on/


(Apologizes that you have to go through the Johnson BS to get to the Stein portion...I think it's extremely revealing!)

[helmedon1974]

3. Wasted vote

I have a friend who supported Stein, then wrote in Bernie on the ballot and wrote himself in for local positions. Talk about a wasted vote!

[sweetloukillbot]

4. It was a two-person con job

And ultimately, her "recounts" bilked Dems out of money and gave Trump cover to say there wasn't fraud in those states.

[peggysue2]

5. Or . . .

she may be sitting in the same camp as Susan Sarandon who insisted that Hillary Clinton was a dangerous status quo candidate and that the Trumpster was a perfect vehicle for The Revolution.

How's that working out?

Threatening 33 million Americans with the cessation of their healthcare, yanking energy assistance to Americans in poor areas this coming winter and entertaining the idea of a trade war, which will really help the working poor in Maine or Coal Country and/or other depressed rural areas. And oh yeah, this same maniac has the nuclear codes.

The thing that pisses me off is that Sarandon and Ms 'critical to the election' Stein will not be affected by these damaging decisions, made by a mentally ill man whose ego is the only thing he worries about. Real people--the elderly, the sick, the disabled, children, etc--will take the brunt of Sarandon and Stein's indifference to the damage on the ground. While they're sipping their wine in the comfort of their homes, they can wave their tiny flags and speak passionately about the horror they prevented.

Here's a clue, girls: this is not a movie.

[not fooled]

59. My contempt for those two

knows no bounds.

At a time of immense potential danger for our nation--the campaign, when dump became the GOPee nominee--they chose the path leading over the cliff. And dragged us along with them, in the end.

[R B Garr]

6. Great post. Stein was vile yesterday, I think it

was MSNBC. She was smirking through her lying teeth while celebrating Democrats losses. The host fed her really pathetic softballs, never challenging her and just letting her spew at will.

The press and even Democrats don't hold them accountable. She wasn't asked the obvious points you brought up about why Greens have never won. No questions about the hypocrisy about her sitting with global oligarchs who helped finance Republicans, but any Democrat who fundraises is accused of dirty money something something. On that note, last week Sanders was not asked by Andrea Mitchell and then later Chuck Todd did not ask Bernie Sanders about their FBI investigation. They are never held accountable as they insist others be.

[TEB]

7. Jill is a grifter just like moron trump

[Docreed2003]

9. If anyone questions where Stein's loyalty lies...

Let me remind you of her positions on Syria and how she toned them down when her campaign was called out for them...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/10/06/the-one-issue-that-shows-exactly-why-gary-johnson-and-jill-stein-havent-caught-on/

[Cha]

34. An awful statement by Green Party presidential candidate

"Stein also has staked out a rather extreme position on Syria, actually calling for the United States to help Assad reassert power. But that call seemed to suddenly disappear from her website Wednesday after reporters spotlighted it."

Link to tweet

Mahalo for that, Docreed

[Docreed2003]

48. Your welcome Cha!!! It's always important to highlight the truth!

Ty hope you are well!!

[Cha]

62. I'm good.. hope you and yours are, too!

[Thinkingabout]

10. Her appearance in Russia at the same dinner Flynn spoke created a never ever Stein. She

may have been seeking the support of Putin, he played Flynn, Stein, Trump and others like a fiddle.

[blue-wave]

11. Yes! Thank you for explaining the "Green" phenomenon so well

We need to better understand this as well as how the reich wing attacks us, as in the attacks on our leadership of late. Only then can we coordinate a concerted effort to effectively respond. We need to take control of the narrative.

[joshcryer]

12. The ultra far left do not care about the American people.

Their overlap with the ultra far right is too much.

[lark]

13. Depends on the definitiion of far left.

I consider myself as far left as is possible and I have total disdain for Stein and the greens for all the reasons stated. Some people like Stein can pretend to be lefties, but it's proven that she was a plant to help drumpf and Russia, so not what she says. I think there are folks who try to take on that mantel of ultra progressiveness for bad reasons and that's to promote the exact opposite of what they say.
Then there are people far lefties like me who vote Democrat because that's the best choice we have and who would rather die than vote for a 3rd party candidate and throw the race to the true enemy - the Republican.

[Motownman78]

16. You are not far left

The far left believes in absolutes just like the far right does. Neither can moderate their positions. The true "far left" want to watch the world burn thinking it will bring a socialist utopia.

[ancianita]

18. ...

[Hekate]

25. I just had a post removed for allegedly the same. In my defense I said the events are happening NOW

The events in question are taking place in the here and now. If the actors in those events are the same as a year ago, too bad.

[MineralMan]

27. Luck of the Jury Pool draw, I think.

It's a shame, really, since Jill Stein continues to make news, long after she lost last November. She was never part of the Democratic primaries in the first place. She seems like a valid subject of conversation on DU, it seems to me, based on her post election and current activities.

[Me.]

54. I'd Appeal

Skinner made it clear yesterday she gets no sanction here

[Hekate]

55. I did

But after a *nearly* spotless record since 2002 I now have two in just a few days, and the first one still stands. So .... shhhhhh

[Me.]

56. 'SHE WAS WARNED. NEVERTHELESS, SHE PERSISTED'

[tonedevil]

15. While she is a hopeless...

political dilatant, at least she can extend her 15 minutes by getting mentioned in political blogs on the regular. In all these Jill Stein diaries it is like she is the ring and the diarists are Gollum. Let go the precious you only make her stronger with each mention.

[ancianita]

17. Best thing I've read about her bullshit. And the reason I've steered clear of the Greens. The public

-- the 70% who didn't vote GOP -- need to have these ideas out there in social media to help them realize that the Greens are not going to be their next vehicle toward democratic justice.

You've done a real service to those people.

I'm going to save this and find some links to solidify it for future reference.

Thanks.

[Crabby Appleton]

19. She sure did her part

to fuck up the election.

[L. Coyote]

20. Greens love Republican and Russian green $$$$.

[Gore1FL]

21. Jesus, are we still whining about Stein?

Maybe we should concentrate on getting people to vote for our side in 2018 and 2020 rather than mope about shit we can't change.

[stevenleser]

84. See DanTex' #39. nt

[Gore1FL]

99. I was hoping for a logical answer to my question, but thanks for the effort. nt

[LiberalLovinLug]

23. What is the point?

So much hand wringing about a party that got 1% of the vote.

I would like to ask one of those that think she is the devil incarnate, if they know how Democracy works. If they even believe in the concept. That a group of like minded people who want to see their issues addressed and don't feel any of the other parties are doing it that well, can start a party, if they can afford it and have enough members, and run themselves.

IMO that should be celebrated. That you live in a country with that political freedom. Including the part you don't like in that this new upstart may take away votes from your own preferred party. But here is the silver lining. New parties spring up for reasons that they feel are not being taken care of. For Greens it was environmental protections, and large corporate money in politics among others. The lining is that it helps to wake up other parties. The closest to their platform is the Democratic party. Nothing wrong with keeping them on their toes. Push them to take more seriously these issues too.

Maybe its just a unique American phenomenon. The only developed country in the world that has, for all intents and purposes, a two party system. You just don't know what to do with a third or fourth party. Of course it would probably be better if there were a more competitive conservative party as well. The Libertarians just don't seem to make any ground.

But by gawd, do people really believe her only purpose to running was to screw Democrats? And worse to elect Trump? Really? She has to be the world's most efficient psychopathic cult leader to fool so many supporters into thinking she actually has morals and principles. That she actually does want Americans to have a fairer system and better air to breathe etc. Dr. Evil x 1000.

I feel I have to add that I in no way am endorsing the Green party, I am not saying vote Green. All I am saying is that Stein is so far down the list of who should be regarded as an enemy that its counter productive, and to me quite odd, to spend time hating on her, especially in such a visceral personal way.

[Cha]

35. stein is a fucking Liar.. she told her gullible suckers

that Hillary was worse than trump and not to vote for her even in swing states.

Yes, the fucking pawn for putin screwed with Democracy.

[DanTex]

39. I'm glad you made this post, because it lets me illustrate an important point about Green defenders.

Everything you've said in defense of her could be said about Giuliani or Chris Christie or any other Trump ally. Even about David Duke.

But for some reason, when it comes to Jill Stein, people start saying "what is the point of criticizing this particular person who works tirelessly to make sure that the GOP's political agenda gets enacted and millions of people suffer".

Because Rudy Giuliani didn't do even 10% of what Jill Stein did to help Trump get elected, but I'm pretty sure there are no DUers that are saying "hey Rudy's just expressing his opinion, he should be celebrated, not criticized."

I don't get it. Please explain why you are pleading for sympathy for someone who has done nothing but help Republicans all her political career. And done it knowingly and intentionally. Why defend her?

[Docreed2003]

49. A freaking men

[not fooled]

60. Yep

Have your convictions, but also exercise good judgement and common sense. We aren't going to get a socialist utopia by facilitating the GOPee winning.

[LiberalLovinLug]

94. Can you really not see the difference in two parties?

One that.....and here you can put all the crap that the Republicans represent including the giant turd at the top.

The other that ...and here you can put all the stuff that Democrats represent and why you support them...PLUS more strident environmental policies, public financing of elections, a fairer voting system without the EC.


How can you or anyone who is sane think that these parties want the same thing? And its quite a stretch to say only the leader of that party is for the GOP. That she must be 100x the con artist Trump is to fool millions into thinking she actually cares about these issues following in the footsteps of Nadar and all the good work he did for consumer protections before he got into politics himself. That somehow she can hold up her facade and keep hidden her secret meetings with the Don and Putie at Mar-a-Lago, A giant conspiracy theory.

Things like her demand for a recall in some of the rust belt states was some ruse that she knew Hillary wouldn't win I suppose. In fact perhaps you think she thought that he would actually pick up votes and that would seal the deal for her dear leader Don all the more?

Sorry but none of that makes sense to me. Both Stein and Nadar are NOT Christie and Guiiano. Just stop that false equivalency BS.

You know, and I know, and everybody knows...that that 1% of voters that you are so worried about, are NOT Trump supporters. What they are is competition for the same votes from the same demographic. Progressives, only ones that are more impatient to move the clock forward and catch up to the rest of the world faster. And THAT is why all the hand wringing. At least admit that much.

And that being the case, then it should not be the same level of hatred towards a person representing a party that is our ALLY if you look at their platform compared to Democrats vs Republicans. The more voices that are presenting progressive alternatives around the world the better. The Greens are an international party that promotes everything Trump would be against.

Yes, of course, I understand in a childrens playground kind of way how one may feel like they have lived in the neighborhood a long time and they alone have the friends to stand up to the class bully and his croneys, and the other new girl that only has a couple of friends wants to fight him on her own and so now you don't have as many friends as you'd like in your circle. You wish she'd just move away to another school or something. But, once again, you live in a democracy. She is allowed to say she has better ideas, whether you agree or not. She is allowed to run for student body president too.

You are blaming one person in an abstract idea full of unbelievable conspiracy theories, in an attempt to lash out and find an easy target to invent and then demonize.



And once again my obligatory amendment to assure the trigger fingers that I do NOT think one should have voted for the Green party. I supported the Democrats and Hillary and I also support Sanders who refused to lead the Greens, and campaigned for Hillary and the Democrats because he and we know we live in a time where the country cannot afford the luxury of a protest vote. BUT IT IS NOT BECAUSE THEY HAVE SOME EVIL PRO-TRUMP AGENDA. I just find that when you begin an argument with such disingenuousness, you can't make any other serious points.

[DanTex]

96. Of course they are different. But they work toward the same results.

Yes, of course the Green platform is similar to the Dem platform, and the exact opposite of the GOP platform. And, yeah, maybe Jill Stein really cares about that stuff. In the same sense that maybe Paul Ryan is being truthful when he says he cares about poor people.

But there's a limit to how far the "good intentions" card can be stretched, and Stein is well past that limit. Because you'd have to drop some pretty serious acid in order to dream up any possible excuse for how Stein's actions could somehow help get the Green party platform closer to reality.

Speaking of what we all know, unless you are being completely disingenuous, here are things we all know:
--Stein preferred Trump winning over Hillary winning
--She knew that her actions would make Trump's presidency more likely, and that that was their only possible effect on the world, since her own chances of winning were zero
--She frequently even stated that Trump was the lesser evil
--She's not the least bit regretful that she helped Trump win, she's actually proud of it

You say it's a "conspiracy theory" to say that she has pro-Trump agenda. But, please, tell me what else I am supposed to say when someone wants Trump to win, says Trump is the better of the two candidates, and then knowingly takes actions that help Trump become president. What other term besides "pro-Trump" is there for such a person?

Also, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say there were any secret meetings with Trump. I also never said she didn't have a right to do what she did. Of course, she has every right to run.

At the end of the day, she helped Trump win, she did it knowingly and intentionally, and she's glad she did. It's not "abstract" at all, she helped Trump in a very real, concrete, obvious, and effective way. The only "abstractness" here is from the twists of logic you are going through in order to ignore this plain fact.

[Gore1FL]

100. The more important questions are:

1> why are you still red-assed about her?
2> why, moving forward, is she worth mentioning at all?
3> how do you plan to bring her voters into our coalition?

Whinging about 2016 won't fix 2018, 2020, or any election beyond.

[farmbo]

61. Stein was clearly acting as a stalking horse for Putin...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/how-putin-played-the-far-left

The only question is whether she did it wittingly or unwittingly.

[philly_bob]

24. Group Hate exercise begins. HATE HATE HATE

Feel better?

[Hekate]

26. Attempt to stifle the flow of facts exercise begins. STIFLE STIFLE STIFLE

Sorry if your hero is not universally admired.

[philly_bob]

28. Not my hero, didn't vote for her,

but really bothered by DU Groupthink and apparent willingness to lose all Stein voters in future elections.

[Tarheel_Dem]

30. Fuck "Stein voters". They are not allies, and if you think they are, then that says more about you.

[Kentonio]

68. Oh for christs sake..

The country is not a giant high school, voters are not 'allies' or 'enemies' they're just normal people who either agree with our platform and support our representatives, or they don't. If they don't but they share some values, then that's an opportunity to win them over in future.

Can we stop already with this 'with us or against us' nonsense, and try and actually win a damn election please.

[ehrnst]

72. Because all this silly talk about people attacking our party prevents

us from winning a "damn election?"



I have seen a lot of attacking those progressives who dare to take a single glance to the center as being "corporate shills!!!" here, and that seems to be in the service of "winning elections."

[Tarheel_Dem]

97. We could probably "win a damn election" were it not for the alt leftists of the Green Party.

(G)etting
(R)epublicans
(E)lected
(E)very
(N)ovember

Since you clearly haven't been paying attention, why don't you go talk to them. No skin off my nose. Fuck 'em one; fuck 'em all.
YMMV.

[Cha]

37. Just because the majority sees the asshole stein for

what she is.. does NOT mean it's "group think".

When the majority of the country voted for Democracy would you be calling that "group think"?

[BzaDem]

38. Your mental model of a rational Stein voter that can be "won over" is absurd on it's face.

Stein voters are not people who look at the candidates during each election cycle, analyze their policy positions, and pick the candidate that best represents them. (Very few people vote that way, but the ones that do certainly don't consider voting for Stein.)

If someone knows who Jill Stein is, that immediately implies they are much more politically engaged than most voters. But if they are that politically engaged, they of course know that we live in a functional two party system (that can't be changed without a constitutional amendment), where third party votes just enable the major party candidate whose views are furthest from the third party candidate.

Putting two and two together, this implies that any Stein voter is not a rational voter that wants to increase the chances that progressive policy gets enacted. This is why the idea of winning over Stein voters with policy based arguments is an exercise in futility. Notice how no Democratic candidate actually makes any attempt to go after Stein voters. Instead, they are treated as a lost cause. (This has the perverse effect of pushing candidates to the right, since when Stein voters are taken out of the pool, the median voter is further to the right.)

This is not to say that it is impossible for Stein voters to be won over. But for a voter who is so irrational that they might consider voting for Stein, rational argument does not work. The only thing that actually works is having the opposing side enact policies that harm them, or people they know. (This is why Nader's vote share dropped by 90% from 2000 to 2004, despte a Democratic candidate that was if anything further to the right.)

Of course, the negative consequences of Republican policies are easy to predict in advance at a high level. That is why the vast majority of left leaning voters vote for Democrats. But in any population, there will always be a small group of people that do not respond to reason, and only respond when the consequences to not responding are up close and personal.

[JI7]

46. Like the congressional baseball shooter who was a Stein voter

[Blue_true]

104. I say fuck Stein voters. Anyone that fucking stupid is not someone that I want to count on. nt

[Cha]

36. right back at ya, philly bob.. do you feel better?

[philly_bob]

44. I registered my protest at the hippie-bashing (Stein, Sarandon, Nader) that occasionally hits DU

with little push-back or correction.

So, yes, I feel better.

Remember Rahm Emmanuel. According to Wikipedia, "On the night after the 1992 election, angry at Democrats and Republicans who 'betrayed' them in the 1992 election, Emanuel stood up at a celebratory dinner with colleagues from the campaign and began plunging a steak knife into the table and began rattling off names while shouting 'Dead! Dead! Dead!'.

[Cha]

47. Right off the bat you're showing major cluelessness..

"hippie bashing".. you have no idea what's going on.

[Hekate]

52. Ain't that the truth? These highly paid professionals were never "hippies"

I knew hippies, and they, sir, are no hippies.

[Cha]

57. They're sitting on Millions of cushiony BUCK$

trump FUBARS the Planet.

[Cha]

58. Btw, just saw this.. the opposite of this OP

Link to tweet

[Hekate]

64. Exactly as we hoped he would do...

[Cha]

65. Yes! Exactly!

We knew he was good for it.

[ProfessorGAC]

91. Who Was The Hippie Being Bashed?

Sarandon isn't that much older than me (a little) but i'm way too young to have been a hippie.

And, Stein was in college and then medical school. So, when exactly would she have been a hippie?

[philly_bob]

95. "Hippie bashing" was an historical reference to 1970's Democratic politics.

I don't think anybody got it.

It references an attitude that free-thinkers and nonconformists must be silenced in order for the organization to run smoothly.

It was a bad choice of terms.

[ProfessorGAC]

101. I Know What Hippie Bashing Is

I was there in the late 60's and early 70's
This isn't hippie bashing
Now, again, what hippie was being bashed? Because your metaphor, so far, is apropos of nothing!

[philly_bob]

102. The uncooperative rebels hounded by the conformist mob are Stein, Sanders, Nader, Sarandon

who seem to rotate as targets in these depressing DU group hate sessions.

The message: everything would be fine if they had only shut up and got with our program. Republican victories are THEIR fault, not ours.

But, again, I regret using the metaphor "hippie bashing" because it has caused so much confusion; it was a careless choice of words.

Mainly, this is a call to stop these group-think hate sessions on DU which alienate potential allies in future elections. You're free to conduct them, I guess -- but I think they damage our cause and coarsen our spirits.

[Blue_true]

105. Fuck all the people you mentioned.

They are collectively responsible for setting the United States back 40 years or more. The country will never be progressive with people like that enabling republicans.

[ProfessorGAC]

110. Then I and Philly Bob Are On The Same Page

I blame the purity seekers more than you, but we agree on things 99.9%

[DanTex]

40. Here's my question. When someone criticizes another GOP ally, to you make the same post?

When you see OPs talking about how Rudy Giuliani is an idiot, or how Kellyanne Conway is an idiot, or Steve Bannon, or Corey Lewandowski, or any of the others.

Do you chime in with the same childish objection in all-caps? Do you try to insinuate that anyone criticizing Republican allies is somehow a hate-monger?

Or is there something special about Jill Stein, one of Trump's most valuable supporters, that makes you want to jump to her defense?

I really hope I get an honest answer from you. Let's see.

[ehrnst]

73. Actually, venting does help. Allows us to blow off steam then get back to work. (nt)

[stevenleser]

85. See DanTex' #39. nt

[Adrahil]

86. She is no friend to us. WE need to understand that, and act on it. NT

[Gothmog]

29. A vote for Stein was a vote for Trump

[oasis]

31. Exactamundo. Greens own everything Trump does to damage our democracy.

They had a considerable hand in creating this Frankenstein monster.

[JI7]

32. these people are NOT the left. They are troll party meant to help republicans win

Is about profit for them.

They hand no interest in getting more liberal policy passed.

[Cha]

33. stein is a Pawn for putin/trump ally/serial Liar RFer.

[MarvinGardens]

41. We could fight fire with fire.

The true deplorables might never change. But they could be convinced to go third party. Not the Libertarians. Too immigrant friendly, pro free trade, etc. Except maybe for the Rand Paul types. But the Constitution Party, or something similar, perhaps. Many of the most hardcore deplorables dislike the mainstream Republicans as much as we do. Here, Mitch McConnell is called McTurtle. Take a jouney over to freeper-land, and you'll hear them call him the same. In 2018, they could be easily convinced that their Republican congresspeople are "cuckservatives" who aren't doing enough to prop up Trump.

[FairWinds]

42. Thank you Philly Bob . .

I second that emotion.

This thread reminds me of the "two minutes of hate" from 1984
(now on the stage again)

What purpose does it serve to make Greens pariahs?

None that I can see . .

[DanTex]

43. I assume when people criticize Republicans, you're just as upset about it, right?

No? Really? Because why is criticizing Jill Stein a "two minute hate" but criticizing Newt Gingrich something different? Tell me you're not under the delusion that Jill Stein is some kind of friend to progressive causes...

[Kentonio]

69. Because Green voters are potential Dem voters

No matter how much people here enjoy demonizing them and making them out as the enemy.

[DanTex]

70. GOP voters are also potential Dem voters.

That doesn't cause people here to start defending Newt Gingrich. Seriously, I don't get the soft spot some people seem to have for Jill Stein.

[Kentonio]

75. Oh come on, spare me the silliness

The Green platform is not a million miles away from ours. Their voters are heavily concerned about the environment and generally left leaning, which makes them a perfect target for us.

If we can win over even 10% of their voters, that could be enough to swing a state next time. I care a damn sight more about that, than I do about people getting some satisfaction by insulting Jill Stein. Because when you sit and attack her, you're making Green voters feel like you're attacking them and calling them stupid. And for what exactly? So you can feel a bit better? That's not a trade off that's worth a damn.

We need to start winning again, and if that requires people to keep their mouths shut, even when they're in the right, then its a price worth paying.

[FairWinds]

76. you tell 'em Kent

the Greens have some major issues, but
so do the Dems.

It makes no sense to gratuitously trash
potential allies.

[DanTex]

80. I would say the same to you.

First of all, I disagree that posts like mine are going to turn Green voters away from the Democratic Party. They might turn Jill Stein devotees away from me personally, but that's a different thing entirely.

On the contrary, the problem with Green voters is that they don't understand the truth. What I am saying in the OP about Jill Stein is factual. If Green voters actually cared about what happens to the environment, they wouldn't support the Green Party, because the Green party actively works to destroy the environment. And so, I would argue, if indeed Green voters are looking at DU in order to make their future voting decisions, speaking the truth about the Green Party is a good thing.

Also, my point about Republican voters stands. Republican voters are, in fact, potential Democratic voters. There are people who sometimes vote GOP and other times vote Dem. By your logic, we should restrain from criticizing the GOP too harshly because that might hurt their feelings. Sorry, I'm not playing that game.

[Kentonio]

81. Despite me not really caring about the details of the Green party, you've gotten my attention

In what way exactly do they 'actively work to destroy the environment'?

As for your last paragraph, you're just being deliberately obtuse. There is no comparison between the likelihood of us swinging a Green voter to Dem or a Republican to Dem, and you know that perfectly well. Also that little strawman about not criticizing Republicans was childish and beneath you.

[DanTex]

82. They actively work to destroy the environment by helping Republicans get elected.

Is that not clear by now? What it says in the Green platform is totally irrelevant. What matters the effect they have on the direction of the nation. And that effect is to push the country further right by siphoning away voted from Democrats.

And this isn't some big secret. Everyone knows about it. The Dems know. The GOP knows. The Greens know. Jill Stein knowingly and purposefully helped get Trump elected, and yes, helping Trump get elected qualifies as "actively working to destroy the environment."

And my last point was absolutely correct. The possibility of swinging an individual Green voter to the Dems may be lower that the possibility of swinging an individual GOP voter to the Dems. But then again there are some 40 times as many GOP voters as there are Green voters. And then of course there are swing voters who sometimes vote GOP and sometimes vote Dem.

So, yeah, if we're going to follow your logic of avoiding the truth because it might hurt the feelings of potential voters, it would be more important to avoid the truth about the GOP. But like I said, I'm not in the business of avoiding the truth to begin with.

[Kentonio]

83. Quick newsflash, we lost the last election

Not just the presidency, but senate and house too. Oh and we've been losing governorships, state legislatures and god knows what else for years now. If your only solution to these losses is 'purity test!' then you're not helping.

[stevenleser]

88. Yep, and part of the reason was the Greens working to undermine the closest candidates to them that

could win.

Greens in other parts of the world would not have done this.

[philly_bob]

108. Interesting, SL, about Greens in other countries.

I didn't know other nation's Greens used tactical voting strategies. Do you have an example?

I know Noam Chomsky advocated a sophisticated tactical approach to voting. (If you're in a safe Dem state, vote 3rd party; if not, vote Dem.)

[DanTex]

89. And that plays into your argument how exactly?

I don't see how I'm any more or less responsible for that loss than you are. And I certainly don't see how avoiding the truth about Jill Stein is going to make things any better.

[Kentonio]

92. Because if even one voter is turned away from us by visiting here

That's a concrete loss to our cause. An unnecessary, pointless loss that earns us nothing.

[stevenleser]

87. US Green Party voters don't care about the details of the Green party. They enabled Trump.

I'm pretty familiar with what the Green party stands for in its various global incarnations.

In few other places would Green Party voters stand by and allow Trump to be elected. They actually care about the issues in their platforms and they understand the dynamics of their political and election systems.

Only in the US are those who identify as Green willfully ignorant of their election system.

[haele]

98. The Green Party in the U.S. treats the Democratic party the same as the Republican party because

the Green party uses an "Establishment" party format rather than the Democratic Party's Coalition format, focusing on generic "National" identity issues rather than local issues.
The Democratic party will put up with Blue Dogs, Yellow Dogs, Corporate Asses - you name it - so that the Democratic party can progress as a coalesced unit with everyone feeling the pain while going forward. The Democratic loyalties are local, which is why you can get Rahm Emmanuel, Clair McCaskill, Kamala Harris, Al Franken, Paul Wellstone (RIP), Joe Manchin, John Lewis, Tammy Duckworth, Martin O'Malley, Hillary (and Bill) Clinton, Howard Dean, and Barak Obama all working together in the same party. A wide range of Liberal and Conservative, Moderates, Social Issues, Economic Issues, Constitutional Issues - and Regional Issues all together as parts of an almost parliamentary machine.

Everything I've seen and read about the Green Party in the U.S. is that their hierarchy demands pretty much lockstep policy and party platforms. Just as the Republicans do. So anyone with half an understanding of politics will not be surprised that the Greens will never want to work with the Democrats. As with modern Republicans, it's all or nothing, and from everything I've observed, the Greens want to set themselves up as the heirs of the Democrats rather than a viable alternative that will work with the Dems - to push the Democrats more from Center to the Left.

Haele

[Kentonio]

109. I'm not think about working with the Greens

More about siphoning away some of their voters. A lot of people voting Green won't be hardline party supporters.

[Blue_true]

106. Honestly, with modern Greens, they are pariahs.

Saying that they are and are anti to liberal progress isn't a bad thing. If that offends you, too bad.

[fallout87]

45. No kidding

What has the green party been doing this past 6 months ? Are they growing a base? Trying to get elected in state and local offices? No, they are just going to show up in 2020 and try to fuck things up again. Such bullshit.

[JHB]

50. Not just the past 6 months. The last 20 years!

Nader ran on the Green's first national ticket in 1996. They have had two decades to forge an effective lefty voting block. What do they have? Nothing.

On their good days, they want to be the lefty party in parliament in a country that doesn't use a parliamentary system. The rest of the time, they're worse than ineffective, they're an aide to what they claim to hate.

[Akamai]

74. Also, a lot of Republican money has gone into their campaigns to

reduce votes for Democrats.

Locally, decades ago some of their policies were commendable -- e.g., instant runoff voting.

But in and since 2000 the Green Party has helped the Republicans in many important elections.

[FairWinds]

78. Well, I do not know about that, but

i do know that the Koch Bros did put some big
bucks into the Dems.

[rpannier]

51. Wish you had posted links to her victory lap

She's pond scum
But, links would have been nice

And before you tell me to look them up. You are the person who made the assertion, it's incumbent upon you to provide

[Gothmog]

53. Stein and Nader were both spoilers who wanted the GOP to win

[vkkv]

63. Nope, I dont think it works this way

"""" She wanted Trump to win, she helped Trump win, and now she's happy about it. She's a Trump ally, period.""


Sounds more like a conspiracy theory.

It's unlikely that I would ever vote 3rd party given the risk, but for voters disillusioned about the current party platforms.. who could blame someone voting green?

That is all it is..


WE ALL THOUGHT HRC WAS GOING TO WIN IN A LANDSLIDE !!!!

[Ruby the Liberal]

71. Two theories on that

Horseshoe theory, where ideological purity puts you in concert with those you claim to be opposed to, and burning the country down in order to save it.

Jill Stein and Susan Sarandon espoused both.

[vkkv]

93. It has more to do with the fact that we all thought, esp. us Liberals, that HRC was was going to win

in a landslide.

Plus, though HRC would be an excellent POTUS - she was not a great candidate. The opposition was able to hang a lot of baggage, false or not, on her which makes for a less than perfect candidate in the public's eyes.

I'm quite sure that your theories will be proven incorrect in the next POTUS election due to many voters having experienced the real-life consequences of making a "protest vote". I seriously doubt that Stein's goal is to get voters TO NOT vote Green next election, but that is the likely result. That is not Horseshoe theory, that is reality.

You cannot tell me that 'protest votes' have no bearing on politicians perception of polls or their platform. That means a 'protest vote' does carry some weight beyond the final results, as sad as they may be.

re: "Horseshoe theory, where ideological purity puts you in concert with those you claim to be opposed to" Wrong, who hates communism more than anyone? Fascists. But you're saying that the two are closely aligned by ideological purity ??

Okay, here's an analogy I just thought up for the end result of Horseshoe theory, it's a bit abstract, but accurate I think:

'I only take cold showers, but I do add a little hot water to it to make it warm.' Do you see Ruby? The two extremes (hot or cold) that you're claiming as being the same were never the same at all. Ideological purity doesn't really exist.

When in history has ideological purity ever existed in it's pure form? You know, without adding a "little hot or cold" water?

[burrowowl]

66. She is certainly no Wionna LeDuke!

and she is certainly not GREEN!

[ehrnst]

67. Ironic, so many Greens I talked to thought HRC was colluding with/chose DT

In order to win.

[Tarc]

77. Stein is neither liberal nor progressive, any more than the Jackpine crowd was

They're opportunists who just love to listen to their own voice, among other things.

[KRISITNA]

79. She was the purveyor of fake news to the extreme left

She is as much as a cosmonaut as 45 is. She, along with the likes of Bannon are hell bent on ruining our democracy and doing way with both parties. She is no patriot, she is no greenie, she's as anti American as they come.

[PatrickforO]

90. I have a good friend who was a member of the Green party in

my state. He left the Greens because he came to see how futile supporting them actually is.

Now, I'm not saying that some of the Green positions aren't very attractive to me. I am an economist, and social Democrat in the Bernie sense (for hair splitters, this means that I see a wide swath of things out there like good roads, strong infrastructure, clean water, clean air, prisons, police, firefighters, K-12, postsecondary colleges and universities, health care and Social Security as being within the realm of 'public good,' which can be defined as those things the private sector cannot or will not do for the good of all of us. These things need to be funded using public monies). In addition, I am a big respecter of reasonable regulations that keep us safe. For instance, in my state, a young couple bought their dream home and settled in, only to have the home explode because of a methane pocket caused by gas leakage from an uncapped underground pipe.

The next day, the Dems in our state legislature wrote a bill that would have required big oil companies to map these underground pipes. Republicans, citing 'job killin' reglashuns,' promptly killed it.

So, when I addressed a group of young Dems aspiring to public office, I told them they had to learn to talk about kitchen table issues in a compelling way, because our party has sucked at that since FDR's Fireside Chats went by the wayside. And please don't tell me our candidates have these good positions - on their websites - because we all know how effective THAT has been. What this means, I said, is to tell it like it is. Anytime a Republican brings up 'job killin' reglashuns,' respond by saying that these are lifesaving guidelines that actually create jobs, and enhance the quality of life for us all.

Another national example is Sen. Warren is now calling for 'single payer.' WTF??? Don't the Dems read national polls? Poll after poll after poll says Americans WANT 'Medicare for all Americans' because they understand Medicare and aren't afraid of it. 'Single payer' doesn't poll nearly as high. We have to learn to talk about kitchen table issues in appealing ways Americans understand.

The Greens are irrelevant, and if you're socialism is SO pure that the Dems aren't good enough, you're shooting yourself in the foot because Greens and Socialists really aren't electable.

So the Dems have to quit being wuuses and fight back harder. Don't just put it on the website and then say it was there all along. That doesn't win elections. Coin some good terms. Have some fun with rhetoric. Words really DO matter. So, hey, let's reinstate all those life saving guidelines Trump killed when he gutted the EPA.

[Blue_true]

107. You hit the nail on its head.

Warren's language is a perfect example. We use words and terms that people don't understand and end up losing because of that. It is done over and over. One thing that I do respect about republican candidates is they typically use simple to understand language, even when they are talking pure impractical bullshit.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

103. In Maine, I swear Eliot Culter ran as an independent just to get LePage elected.

It worked twice. This is why the people voted for ranked choice voting in Maine and now the Republicans are looking for ways to throw out what the people voted for. They are evil.