We need to eliminate the entire police system in this country and reconstruct from scratch.

[Zalatix]

We need to get rid of them until we can come up with a system that doesn't encourage rabid psychopaths into their ranks.

An America (temporarily) without police is turning out to be less dangerous than one with the monsters that we have standing over us with their badges and guns.

These guys are just one step up from MS13.

[Warpy]

1. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater never works

What will work is

1. End the drug war.

2. With that excuse to void civil rights gone, we can demilitarize the police.

3. Sociopaths would then find the police far less attractive.

[joshcryer]

25. This is the correct answer that everyone is overlooking.

The drug war is largely responsible for it all.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

37. You forgot the next step

People with brains and caring need to join the force.

[SammyWinstonJack]

48. Except that is exactly want is not wanted. Those people need not apply to the force.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

115. I believe you just hit on the makings of a political cartoon's punchline.

[tk2kewl]

76. Before the police can be demilitarized we need to disband the DHS

nt

[SunsetDreams]

2. What would you suggest in the interim

after we got rid of the entire police system?

Who would an elderly woman/man turn to for being mugged/beaten all because someone wanted their purse or wallet?

Who would go in an rescue a child after a report of child abuse by one of their parents?

Who would go in and intervene after a husband beat the crap out of his wife?

Where would a convenience store worker turn if they were being robbed at gun point? The alarm that they utilize sends an automatic call to police.

I do know there are some bad apples(that's an understatement in some cases) but to throw out the entire police system and start over is not going to solve anything and I fear would only make things worse.

That's just my opinion.

[Zalatix]

3. I hate to break it to you but

The Supreme Court says the cops do not have an actual duty to protect anyone.

Please forgive me for citing the right wing New York Times to back up my argument:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html

(of course the NYT has never been a right wing rag; but I suppose they'll be accused of being one now...)

[SunsetDreams]

5. You didn't answer my questions

What is your solution? Citing The Supreme Court ruling doesn't cut it.

SunsetDreams (6,514 posts)
2. What would you suggest in the interim

after we got rid of the entire police system?

Who would an elderly woman/man turn to for being mugged/beaten all because someone wanted their purse or wallet?

Who would go in an rescue a child after a report of child abuse by one of their parents?

Who would go in and intervene after a husband beat the crap out of his wife?

Where would a convenience store worker turn if they were being robbed at gun point? The alarm that they utilize sends an automatic call to police.

I do know there are some bad apples(that's an understatement in some cases) but to throw out the entire police system and start over is not going to solve anything and I fear would only make things worse.

That's just my opinion.

What is your solution and where would those folks turn? What would they do in those situations?

[Zalatix]

7. Answers

1) Cops won't always (actually I'm being generous here) even bother with that.
2) Ditto.
3) They often don't intervene. We've seen the end results of that quite often. Sometimes they do, but often they don't.
4) Ditto. ESPECIALLY with this. More than likely if you stand your ground against him, you'll be the one who gets arrested.
5) Oh come on. The criminal is usually long gone by the time the cops get there.

[SunsetDreams]

11. Ah I see

In your suggestion that we get rid of the police system:

1)There would be no cops
2) Ditto
3)Ditto
4)Ditto Who's going to arrest you? after all there would be no cops
5) Ditto

So again, who do you suggest those folks turn to in the interim? What would they do in those situations?

[Zalatix]

16. Self-defense?

Shit, it's just as good an option as what we have now. The cops are almost as bad as MS-13.

You don't even know what brand of fucking psycho you're going to get when you come across one of these boys in blue.

[SunsetDreams]

20. Oh so your answer is self defense?

SunsetDreams (6,514 posts)
2. What would you suggest in the interim

after we got rid of the entire police system?

Who would an elderly woman/man turn to for being mugged/beaten all because someone wanted their purse or wallet?

Who would go in an rescue a child after a report of child abuse by one of their parents?

Who would go in and intervene after a husband beat the crap out of his wife?

Where would a convenience store worker turn if they were being robbed at gun point? The alarm that they utilize sends an automatic call to police.

Let's review my questions and insert your answer.

1) Who would an elderly woman/man turn to for being mugged/beaten all because someone wanted their purse or wallet?
Your answer basically: You are on your own, you need to learn self defense. What are you too frail to defend yourself? You are on your own.

2. Who would go in an rescue a child after a report of child abuse by one of their parents?
Your answer basically: You are on your own, should have learned that self defense. What your not as big as your parents? Too bad.

3. Who would go in and intervene after a husband beat the crap out of his wife?
Your answer basically: You are on your own...self defense learn it or continue being beat up.

4. Where would a convenience store worker turn if they were being robbed at gun point? Oh let's just have Vigilante Justice here and break out in a gun fight. Take your gun to work. What don't have a gun? Try and wrestle it out of his/her hands.

You want these people to be on their own, some of whom couldn't defend themselves. You appear to be advocating Vigilante Justice, sorry I just can't get behind that. Do we need reform and make the police system better? Absolutely, but what you are suggesting will make things worse.

[Zalatix]

32. When the cops turn on you or won't respond to crime, then what? What can we do then?

And I am not advocating a permanent situation without cops. The cops we have, all need to go. They need to be replaced by non-psychopaths. The system is rotten to the core and needs to be reconstructed from the bottom to the top.

I've answered your questions; now it's my turn.

What YOU don't want to answer is what do we do when the cops turn on us, and they've done that A LOT. Who do you turn to then?

[SunsetDreams]

36. Do you have any statistics

to back up your claim that cops do not respond to crime? I want to see numbers that report that most of the time or even close to most of the time they do not respond and I want to see it from a reputable source. Not just some thrown out there claim.

I don't care if you are not advocating a permanent situation without cops. You are advocating at the very least a temporary one, and that is MORE dangerous than what we have now. I think what you expected is "Yeah!!! Let's get rid of the cops" You clearly didn't think this one through. I get being angry at stories of police brutality, but it is unfair and wrongheaded to classify ALL cops with the bad apples. You can't, as one poster so succinctly put it, throw the baby out with the bathwater.

My answer to your question:

What you don't do is take the law into your own hands. What I would suggest is shine a light on it wherever it exists, call the media, write congress, make some damn noise, protest the brutality, but do it peacefully.

We have laws in this country, granted some of them are stupid and need to be overhauled or rid of, but we have a system of laws for a reason. We have a Government in place for a reason. The Government has made a lot of mistakes.. are you suggesting we throw that out and start new? Gawd I hope not, we have to work with what we have now and try and improve it.

Just because something is broken, doesn't mean you throw it in the trash. You repair it and hopefully with a little care it will work like brand new. Who knows maybe even better?

[Zalatix]

39. Your answer points to solutions that have not worked.

How much good did it do in these cases?

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/02/22/three-nypd-officers-acquitted-in-police-brutality-trial/

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Officer-Aquitted-in-Police-Brutality-Case-Caught-on-Tape-97337309.html

http://www.colorofchange.org/blog/2012/may/25/chad-holley/

http://newsone.com/443432/officers-acquitted-in-sodomy-police-brutality-case/

I can come up with countless more examples.

As for police not responding... perhaps you never heard of this?
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/02/21/ignored-911-call-turns-fatal-in-berkeley-police-busy-with-occupy-protest/

[SunsetDreams]

42. More links and non answers

Do you have any statistics
to back up your claim that cops do not respond to crime? I want to see numbers that report that most of the time or even close to most of the time they do not respond and I want to see it from a reputable source. Not just some thrown out there claim.

Then when asked for any statistics on police not responding, you show me ONE case. Come on.

I never denied that there wasn't police brutality. I'm not sure why you are showing me links to it. Your 4th link is about the same case as the 1st only using a different source. I'm sure you can come up with countless more examples, but those countless examples do not justify getting rid of the entire police system and starting from scratch. What is dangerous is playing on peoples anger, fear and suggesting vigilante justice or "self defense". You are on your own type stuff. I noticed you didn't answer about the Government. Do you think we should just throw that out and start new too?

You are doubling down on some serious stuff with consequences for a whole lot of innocent people. In your self-defense, I suppose we can do away with innocent until proven guilty. Just the mere accusation, and your justified for taking someone out. BS!

[Zalatix]

50. Your answers still point to solutions that have NOT worked.

I'm doubling down on consequences that are DECREASINGLY worse than what we have going on now. Things will, of course, have to get worse with the law enforcement system that we have, for you to appreciate that. And in this emerging Plutonomy, things will do just that. Enjoy!

[SunsetDreams]

52. Oh yeah

The little girl/boy who is abused by their parents? Too bad, I know you can't possibly defend yourself but too bad.
The elderly who gets beaten/mugged? Too bad, deal with it.
The wife who gets abused by her husband? Defend yourself, you are on your own.

Those are all your basic answers as noted by previous posts.

You still did not answer my question about government.

This conversation has been, well interesting

[dionysus]

58. dude probably got busted with an eigth one time and has a grudge, leave him alone.

[Zalatix]

74. Really, do you have proof of this, or are you just engaging in childish trolling?

[dionysus]

88. i'm sorry. was it a quarter?

[Zalatix]

93. Figures. When you can't win an argument, just make up lies.

[dionysus]

98. sorry, but you'd have to be smoking some dank-ass chronic to come up with the "argument" in the OP.

[Zalatix]

102. And what excuse do you have for your childish responses?

I guess all the examples of gross police brutality and their ongoing war against Occupy isn't a big enough clue for you that the system is rotten at its core.

What would it take to wake you up? Conditions like in China?

Oh, I'm sorry, even China jails fewer people than we do here.

Again, what excuses do you have?

[NCTraveler]

106. Maybe MS13 can help them to get their drugs home in a safe manner. nt

[dionysus]

107. .

[Zalatix]

111. Looks like they already helped you.

[LanternWaste]

97. Ok... that was just funny.

Ok... that was just funny.

[Comrade Grumpy]

139. Him and about 10 million others in the past couple of decades. That's a lot of grudges.

That's you drug war fallout, too. Leads to bad attitudes toward cops.

How ironic that someone with a Jerry Garcia avatar would post that.

[PavePusher]

105. Immediate self-defense has ALWAYS been the job of the victim.

As it has been for all of history.

It may not be fair (criminals seldom are). It may make you sad. But it is the cold hard truth, as unavoidable as the sunrise.

Police are almost completely about finding the criminal after the fact. Occasionally they get to stop a crime in progress, and/or prevent something bad from happening, but they are generally the one who must sort out the aftermath.

Unless you know how to bend the laws of time and space, and provide a LOT more man-power...


Edit: Self-defense is NOT "Vigilante Justice". Words have meanings, and you don't get to arbitrarily change them to frame your message.

[SunsetDreams]

113. Good point

about

Police are almost completely about finding the criminal after the fact. Occasionally they get to stop a crime in progress, and/or prevent something bad from happening, but they are generally the one who must sort out the aftermath.

The OP is saying we should get rid of the entire police system

We need to eliminate the entire police system in this country and reconstruct from scratch. [View all]

We need to get rid of them until we can come up with a system that doesn't encourage rabid psychopaths into their ranks.

I asked what should those folks do in the interim, and finally got the answer "Self-defense". The OP has no solutions for crime victims other than Self-defense, even if it's a small child or the elderly. I intentionally put the word "after" in most of my examples and that was the response. I realize Vigilante Justice has a different meaning...what other recourse is there after you've suggested getting rid of the entire police force even temporarily?

[treestar]

151. I've been stopped for speeding a couple of times

The cops were actually very polite. IMO they are trained to be to avoid confrontation.

One came out to dust a place I worked in that was burgled. He was no problem. Not a psycho. He took dusted for prints then left.

I have a relative who is a cop and he's no psycho. A good husband/father.

Who would do reports for auto accidents?

And the criminal being long gone is silly. Someone has to investigate. Murderers don't hang around, so does that mean we shouldn't try to solve them? Or blame the cops for not being there just before the murder occurred?

[Trajan]

64. Sorry ... But your explanations are simplistic and unfounded ....

They sound more like a personal fantasy .....

For the record: MOST police are pretty decent public servants .... While we seem to see the ugly ones during periods of strife, the greater percentage are NOT swinging billy clubs at anybody ....

Only in your dreams are all police 'bad' ..... This is NOT the reality ...

I would rather keep most of the police in place, and, hopefully, protecting our families and friends against real, actual crime ....

[coalition_unwilling]

68. Must be something in the Los Angeles drinking water then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_scandal

[Zalatix]

80. Now now, the LAPD is under civilian control. remember!

[COLGATE4]

135. I've been a practicing attorney for 23 years

Last edited Wed Jul 11, 2012, 07:51 PM - Edit history (2)

and many of my close friends are both Prosecutors and Criminal Defense attorneys. I hear almost all the local 'cops and bad guy' stories, both the good and the fuck-ups and it has been my experience that truly 'bad' cops are few and far between. What unfortunately IS true in today's society (as opposed to the 60's, for example) is the much less reluctance on the part of lawbreakers to use lethal force against cops. This increased perception of danger has undoubtedly created a much more defensive posture on the part of many in law enforcement, which may spill over on occasion. But to imply that the police, as a general proposition are somehow worse than a savage criminal gang such as M-13 is not only simply gross exaggeration but really quite delusional.

[randome]

137. Your experience and opinion should carry more weight on the subject.

But I doubt it will for some.

[dionysus]

56. and drunks driving everywhere.

[SunsetDreams]

59. If you can't

avoid them while you're walking down the street or move your car out of the way, I just don't know what to tell ya man.

Edit: it's sad I would even have to say this, but that is pure and utter sarcasm.

[permatex]

4. One step up?

I think you give them too much credit, I would sooner trust a member of MS-13 than the cops in this country
But back to the subject, your right,
1. All police forces should be disbanded and re-constituted to reflect what the citizens want and need of their LE officers.
2. All police forces should no longer be wearing military style combat uniforms, they should go back to the pre-combat style uniforms.
3. No more military or military style equipment. No more automatic rifles. Sidearm, semi auto rifles, and shotguns only.
4. No more police depts. investigating themselves, there should be a civillian only investigation agency with no members with any ties to law enforcement.
5. If an LE is found to have committed any crime, whether on or off duty, they are to be immediately terminated and made to stand trial just like any other citizen.

These are just a few suggestions to start with. There are many, many more things that can be done.

[sabrina 1]

8. Definitely get rid of the all the military toys and uniforms they have acquired.

That would be a start. I wouldn't disband them altogether, but I would hire experts in good policing from countries that have managed to maintain a civilian police department that works for the people, to retrain ours, and conduct some kind of testing to weed out the bad ones. Then make it standard procedure for the good cops to be able to report the bad ones without being harassed as happens way too often.

There are good cops, many of them. But our PDs are now coordinating with Homeland Security and the Military so even if a good Police Chief eg, doesn't want to beat up protesters eg, he probably wouldn't last very long.

[permatex]

13. I am open to any reasonable suggestion

and yours are definitely reasonable. I read every day of more police misconduct, and it seems to be getting worse.
I read a couple of stories today right here on DU where the cops murdered civilians and it just shocked me.

The cops today have an us vs. them attitude, I know, I have a couple of relates in LE and their attitude is that there are cops and then there are future suspects.
Also, I worked with cops for 30 years in Phoenix in my job capacity and I saw this attitude evolve .
And the police wonder why they are viewed with such deep suspicion in this country.

[sabrina 1]

26. I know, I agree that we read of horrible abuses by the police far too often

and a lot we never hear about, especially in poorer areas where the victims have little recourse.

And I agree that something needs to be done. But I know there are good cops too, who knows how many have simply quit and found other jobs? But for those who want to do good, and I have met many like that, along with the other kind, it is necessary to help them imo.

I understand where you are coming from. I just don't think it's feasable or likely that disbanding them would be the way to go.

The civilian police should not be militarized, ever. We have a military, we do not the military policing civilians.

[TheKentuckian]

44. If there were an appreciable percentage of "good ones", we'd have significantly less issues

with the bad ones.

The "few bad apples" folks are seemingly at an eternal loss to explain why all the "good ones" that make up the vast majority of the barrel never stop the bad ones and will almost always cover for them.

I suggest that no one has a firm grip on what is baby and what is bath water nor how incredibly toxic and sludge like that bath water is, I don't think a baby would survive in it.

What kind of baby makes bath water like that anyway? Why is it dirtier than when it was put into the bath? If there is a baby then how do you propose separating it from the bathwater without draining the tub or identifying the baby and picking it up out of the "bath water"?

[SunsetDreams]

14. +1000

[sabbat hunter]

118. few things

1) how long do you think this process would take, which citizens decide what they want?
2) most police officers do not wear military style uniforms
3) most police officers are only equipped with a sidearm or a shotgun.
4) many jurisdictions already have this in place
5) why are you terminating them if they have not been convicted of a crime? what about due process? in most places if a LE is accused of a crime they have to give in their badge/gun and are put on restricted duty while an investigation takes place, but still are law enforcement officers.

and to say that you would trust a member of MS-13 over a police officer shows that you really don't know what LE do and how violent and criminal MS-13 is.

I would say 95-99% of police officers are doing a fine job and are not as you call them 'sociopaths."

[PavePusher]

125. A few things....

1. Hmmm.... be careful what you wish for.

2. I want them wearing practical clothing applicable to their jobs, not some travesty of a bad suit hindering their physical actions. I'll note that I've been in the USAF for almost 22 years. I don't recall ever seeing police in "military style combat uniforms". I've seen lots of them in clothing practical to vigorous running, wrestling with criminals and carrying survival and rescue gear. Some of this may look like "military style combat uniforms" to the layman. Note that theres a lot of overlap in such gear. Pants that are practical to military field ops (non-restrictive, lots of pockets for gear) are equally useful for police work (non-restrictive, lots of pockets for gear). Complaining about uniforms is a deflection and distraction from actual actions.

3. I agree that civilian police should NOT generally have full-auto weapons. That said, I see nothing wrong with them having semi-auto AR-15's. They should be armed equally to the arms available to the average criminal. I think SWAT teams do need to exist, but far fewer of them, and under much more restrictive guidlines, then current. They certainly shouldn't be serving warrants at 0300 for the most part.

4. Agree about 85%. All departments should be subject to civilian review boards, no more than 1/4th of which membership may be former officers from another jurisdiction.

5. You've kind of got it backwards (crimes are determined by trial), but I understand what you are trying to say. Any officer under investigation for a possible crime should be suspended, half-pay or less until charged or cleared. If cleared, held pay can be re-imbursed. If charged and convicted, recind even the half-pay.

[permatex]

127. I was just kinda ranting,

I know that most cops are good cops, but when all you see are cops killing civilians in what is clearly criminal behaviour in the news, it starts to give you a slanted view.

Just my morning rant.

[PavePusher]

131. Oh, I agree completely. And I sometimes wish for instant, broad "solutions" as well. n/t

[permatex]

134. I worked with Phoenix Police and neighboring agencies also in my job capacity

and I saw alot of outstanding deeds by police in my 30 year career, however, I also saw how police attitudes changed over time from wanting to help the public to an us vs. them attitude, not all cops, but alot of the newer ones. I have 2 relates in LE and one of them told me that there are only LE and future suspects.
We don't talk hardly at all anymore.

[limpyhobbler]

6. So what happens in between disbanding the old system and reconstructing the new system?

[Zalatix]

9. Bad things. But not as bad as what we're heading for with the status quo.

What's the difference between the police now and the Crips gangs?

Uhhh.... not sure.

[limpyhobbler]

10. Um...build the new cops first, then disband the old cops after the new cops are ready.

[Zalatix]

18. Ah, yes

Throw good water into contaminated water. Works every time.

[sabbat hunter]

119. seriously

you seriously see no differences between the police and the Crips gangs? Seriously?

[Zalatix]

121. Point taken.

The cops have much better weapons and when they shoot unarmed people to death they have better acquittal rates in court. If a cop is shooting at your family and you shoot him dead you are in far worse trouble than if you shot a member of MS13 in the same situation.

Damn! There is a difference between the police and MS13! I stand corrected!

[sabbat hunter]

142. you are nuts

to compare cops and street gangs and to think that in any way they are the same or that cops are worse.

[Zalatix]

144. You are foolish

to think the cops are any better. Read and be educated. Sometimes the cops are on the gangsters' payroll.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_scandal

Have a nice day!

[SunsetDreams]

145. Don't forget

Wiki is an awesome source.

[intheflow]

12. Awesome! And we can pay the new guys minimum wage!

That'll boost confidence in police and balance local budgets! What a brilliant idea!!

[permatex]

15. It may seem that I'm anti police

really, I'm not, I'm just anti police brutality which seems to be becoming more and more prevalent. If we would pay the police forces what they really deserve, maybe most of the corruption would disappear.
I was a Phoenix Firefighter for 30 years and I probably made 3 times what a cop makes and that, to me, is wrong.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. If it's nation wide

the first thing we need to do is stop treating each case as an "isolated incident" and get serious on a federal level.

That means the FBI needs to get in on this just like they did in the South to crack down on the wide spread descrimina,....oh wait,...that really solved things,...didn't it....

[Zalatix]

17. Cops are being busted down to minimum wage right now.

Scranton, PA, anyone?

[intheflow]

35. Duh. That was the source of my sarcasm. n/t

[joshcryer]

19. Yeah, because the national police system has worked out well for Venezuela...

[Prophet 451]

22. Works just fine here (the UK)

In fact, the US is highly unusual in not having a national police force. Most other countries, both good and bad, have them.

[joshcryer]

23. I wouldn't call a police surveillance state "just fine."

[Prophet 451]

28. That's an exageration

Yes, we have a lot of CCTV cameras but they're mostly confined to high-traffic areas. We're not Soviet Russia here.

[randome]

70. Sorry, we Americans are much better qualified than you to be the judge of that.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

27. Works fine for you? Would it be safe for tourists to visit the Belfast murals tomorrow?

[Prophet 451]

29. Very probably

There's always the chance of being mugged, of course, but that's true anywhere. The Troubles are mostly over now (with the exception of a few terrorist splinter groups). Belfast is the seat of the devolved government, the fastest growing economy of any British city and has a thriving tourist industry.

[Zalatix]

40. Who's advocating that?

[Prophet 451]

21. I think that goes too far

I would suggest that there are still good cops out there. Even Gotham had Jim Gordon. The trick is going to be protecting and promoting those good cops and cleaning out the bad ones.

[zappaman]

24. I miss the UNREC button. n/t

[Quantess]

33. +1

only thing to do now is "trash thread".

[randome]

72. It's there. You just can't see it because there's something in your eye.

[Historic NY]

30. Demilitarizing them would be a start and removing a curriculum that...

stress's its a war between the people they serve and them would be a start.

[aquart]

34. What nonsense.

Sometimes the silliest, most ill-considered ideas show up here.

[cali]

46. many of them from the same posters.

that's somewhat comforting.

[pintobean]

49. and get recced

[NCTraveler]

77. Much nicer than my post.

Agree completely.

[Zalatix]

81. Your post was a tantrum drive-by.

But as I said, the way the law enforcement system is going in this country, they will make you regret your silly "arguments".

[NCTraveler]

82. Not sure you know what a drive-by is. As I responded twice.

And that was definitely not a tantrum.

[Zalatix]

83. It was a tantrum. One you probably had no intention of answering responses to...

which also made it a drive-by.

[SunsetDreams]

85. Oh please

You clearly lost this one Zalatix by the responses to your OP.

NCTraveler (314 posts)
77. Much nicer than my post.

Agree completely.

To which you still insist is somehow a tantrum to which NCTraveler probably had no intention of answering but they did.


Speaking of not answering, you never answered my question that was repeated to you. Do you think we should just do away with Government too?

[Zalatix]

92. Oh, please. I haven't lost any fight in this thread.

NCTraveler only answered after I called his/her post a drive-by. It took a little... prodding.

And I don't feel we should do away with Government. I didn't say do away with the police. I said shut them down and reconstruct the system; that was my OP. RECONSTRUCT, not abolish. Thus, if you really wanted to argue this logically, which you didn't, your challenge to me would have been "Do you think we should reconstruct the Government" to which I'd have said YES.

But you didn't ask that question because either a) You didn't read my OP for comprehension; or b) you saw red instead of seeing reason.

In any case you cannot come back and show how "Do you think we should just do away with Government too?" was in any way relevant to my OP, since I did not call for just doing away with the cops. But I know how you will approach this - either you won't own up to being wrong about inferring some mystical desire to JUST DO AWAY with anything, or you'll try and etch-a-sketch some leap of faith line from the concept of "reconstruct" to "just do away".

I knew this ahead of time; which is why I stopped bothering with you. However, since you pushed it, I am bothering to answer, and to also explain your motivations.

[SunsetDreams]

99. Ok

Do you think we should do away with entire U.S. Government at least until we can come up with something better?

or does your argument for reconstruction include leaving it in place while we seek to improve it?

I don't think that's why you stop responding. You had no clear answer as to who an elderly person, child, spousal abuse victim would turn to in the interim of you doing away with the Police system even temporarily. Oh except self-defense, never mind if they are too frail, their parents are bigger than them or whatnot. It was a You are on your own argument that you had no answer for. Like I said you didn't think this one through, and instead of admitting that after DUer after DUer has pointed it out, you double down on it.

I've highlighted my question to you.

Your statement: "

Do you think we should reconstruct the Government" to which I'd have said YES.

[Zalatix]

109. I have no clear answer for what those people will do NOW.

Especially when the cops don't respond, which they are not obligated to do. I can cite numerous cases where cops did not, in fact, respond. I can also cite a case where a woman defended herself from an abusive husband and got 20 years in a Florida prison. Do you have an answer for that?

Your answer, so far, was a non-answer.

What you don't do is take the law into your own hands. What I would suggest is shine a light on it wherever it exists, call the media, write congress, make some damn noise, protest the brutality, but do it peacefully.

You said what we shouldn't do. You offered no idea of what we should do. But I know why you answered like that: it's because not only do you have no idea what we should do, but you also know that there really isn't anything we can do except reboot. What's the point of responding to you when you couldn't even answer my question with ideas on what we should do? Now don't you tell me why I don't respond. I gave you two reasons so far. I do fully expect you to keep telling yourself "Zalatix was too scared, lulz!"

And I wouldn't suggest we do away with the Government because we can solve the police problem without undoing the whole Government. However, as I said, if we don't deal with the rampaging police the Government will do away with itself in favor of a corporate state. I'm sure you are much more comfortable with that.

[SunsetDreams]

123. As I said,

I need statistics for your claim that cops do not respond to crime from reputable source. That would include a study on the entire police system, not some links to individual cases. Your numerous cases and answer to that request for your claim turned out to be ONE case. Just because you can cite the sources for individual cases does not represent your argument that we should do away with an entire police system in this country and start from scratch.

Actually your own excerpt of what I stated says in fact what I would suggest you do to which you replied that hasn't worked. You cannot claim now that I offered no idea of what "we" should do. Nice try though though really.

What you don't do is take the law into your own hands. What I would suggest is shine a light on it wherever it exists, call the media, write congress, make some damn noise, protest the brutality, but do it peacefully

I'm glad you think that we shouldn't do away with Government, even temporarily, even though it is clearly broken in some areas. Kind of defeats your argument in the OP that we should do away with the police system because it's broken in some areas.

On edit I just realized I didn't answer a question of yours.

I can also cite a case where a woman defended herself from an abusive husband and got 20 years in a Florida prison. Do you have an answer for that?

I'm sure you can cite a case like that. I guess her "self-defense" wasn't good enough for the jurors, which is absolutely on the surface rediculous, without looking at the facts of the case. Somehow you think that Self-defense is the answer to the interim of having no police department though. I guess we could do shut down the court system http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=640173 or not.

[Zalatix]

128. Okay, so you offered a proven FAILED solution. Enjoy your fail. Now how about a REAL solution?

Or do we keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results, which is a popular definition of insanity? IOW your answer was a non-answer.

Can you at least come up with a real answer and not one that we all know has failed and will fail?

As for cops and their responses (or lack thereof), there's no national statistics but I've got regional stats bookmarked:

http://www.firehouse.com/news/10462942/thousands-of-new-orleans-calls-not-answered


And your attempt to use the Government as an analogy fails because the Government can shut down whole police departments and force them to start all over. Which is the very BARE MINIMUM that we should be doing.

[SunsetDreams]

136. Explain to me how it's a proven FAILED solution please.

What you don't do is take the law into your own hands. What I would suggest is shine a light on it wherever it exists, call the media, write congress, make some damn noise, protest the brutality, but do it peacefully

I don't think all the protests in this country have failed. Women's rights, Civil rights, you get the idea. You now use as an argument that the government can shut down whole police departments and force them to start all over. How is writing congress a failed solution then? How is contacting the media and getting it out there a failed solution then? Do you think Congress is going to just automatically recognize a problem? Then you go on to say that is the very bare minimum that we should be doing. Now you are changing your argument somewhat. It's now individual police departments which is different than entire Police system in your OP.

As for your link, that is not national statistics and does not hold up your argument that we should get rid of the entire police system and start from scratch. I'll look into New Orleans though.

[Zalatix]

138. LOL!!! Really?

I don't think all the protests in this country has failed. Women's rights, Civil rights, you get the idea.

But we're not talking about all protests. We're talking about police brutality. Your proposed solutions:

What you don't do is take the law into your own hands. What I would suggest is shine a light on it wherever it exists, call the media, write congress, make some damn noise, protest the brutality, but do it peacefully

have done little to stop the escalation of police brutality in America and have not had nearly the success that similar efforts for racial equality and women's rights have had.

As for what I said the bare minimum was, I said the bare minimum is that we need to shut down one whole city's police department and replace it. It doesn't go far enough, but it's a start. The LAPD would be a good first candidate. The NYPD, too. Top to bottom.

We've done the whole "shine a light on it wherever it exists, call the media, write congress, make some damn noise, protest the brutality, but do it peacefully". Please show statistics where this has stopped police brutality... or even slowed it down.

Has it stopped the police from pounding on Occupy? No. Has it stopped the police from killing homeless people? Nope. Has it stopped the police from getting acquitted for this shit? No. Has it stopped them from acquiring DRONES, tanks and military style assault rifles? Nope.

You know what, I think for laughs, I should repeat that solution "shine a light on it wherever it exists, call the media, write congress, make some damn noise, protest the brutality, but do it peacefully" on every police brutality thread I see. That's like what, 1-5 a day?

Really, writing Congress?

[SunsetDreams]

140. Yes seriously

You may balk and laugh at just how long "women's rights" and "civil rights" protest took to get anything done in this country. You want an immediate solution, I submit to you, throughout history there has never been an immediate solution to civil rights. We are always improving, and haven't came far enough yet. Your immediate solution is just throw it all out, the entire police system and now that you've lost the argument oh let's just do One police department.

"Really write Congress?" Hey you're the one who suggested that Government could shut down police systems err.. um departments.

[Zalatix]

141. Yes, because we've only started trying your solutions yesterday.

Seriously though, we've made no improvements in police brutality despite DECADES of shining a light on it, calling the media, writing Congress, making noise, and peaceful protests. In fact, things have gotten worse and our cops are now better armed than some nations' armies.

What will also go completely over your head is the basic fact that while shining a light on it, calling the media, writing Congress, making noise, and peaceful protests have made great strides for women's rights, it has not worked against police brutality. You clearly cannot use one example to justify the other. Your analogies and comparisons are not valid.

Most hilariously your solution

What you don't do is take the law into your own hands. What I would suggest is shine a light on it wherever it exists, call the media, write congress, make some damn noise, protest the brutality, but do it peacefully

left out actually voting in politicians who will put the smack down on abusive police departments. Again, not far enough, but also more effective than what you suggest. Marginally so, admittedly.


So anyhoot, good luck trying the same tactics again and again that have never worked against police brutality. BTW Albert Einstein would call that insanity. Have a nice day!

[SunsetDreams]

143. LOL the ole

Albert Einstein word.

I'll tell you what is hilarious, you wanting to throw out the entire police system which was what this OP was about. Then you offer NO solutions to what folks do in the interim other than using self-defense, even if it's a child, spousal abuse victim, or elderly. My solutions were working within the system, you appear to want to work outside it. In a democracy it doesn't work that way.

Why do you mention "actually voting in politicians who will put the smack down on abusive police departments" if you think writing congress won't work? You posts have went in circles here trying to justify your argument for getting rid of an entire police system.

[Zalatix]

156. Then enjoy your hopelessly broken law enforcement system. You're probably not black, homeless

or a protester. If you were, you wouldn't be spouting the nonsense that you do.

In any case, you just keep on proposing your failed ideas to fix this bullshit system over and over again. This system is about as healthy as a victim of a US drone. Our system of law enforcement, with the largest prison population in the world, is dead and rotting, but you just want to keep applying CPR and band-aids.

Go for it. Things will only get worse from here on. Remember I told you so. Enjoy!

[SunsetDreams]

161. Oh ok

you just keep insisting on getting rid of an entire police system without having any solutions for what crime victims do in the interim.

That will solve everything

[Zalatix]

162. Like I said, good luck fixing this broken system.

The day your way succeeds, feel free to come rub it in.

Until then, enjoy!

[SunsetDreams]

163. Ok

[NCTraveler]

100. I already replied twice when you called it a drive-by.

Try to be honest.

[Zalatix]

110. Let's see now

The drive-by response:

I really don't think you are serious. NCTraveler 10:08 AM #75

Mine:
I really DO think you are being childish. Zalatix 10:15 AM #78

Your next response came at:


That was not a rant. It was an observation. NCTraveler 10:35 AM #84

That was 20 minutes after I pointed out your post at #75 as a drive-by.

You had intended to leave #75 orphaned.

[SunsetDreams]

117. oh wow 20 whole minutes

on the internet and somehow a person doesn't respond and it becomes a drive-by.

[dionysus]

120. leave him alone, he doesn't know what a drive-by post means, okay?

[Zalatix]

130. You obviously don't know what an ABANDONED post is.

[SunsetDreams]

132. Lol ok

20 minutes meant abandoned post.

[NCTraveler]

133. Thank you for backing me up.

And for knowing my intent. We are tight like siblings.

[dionysus]

90. well, someone is throwing tantrums, for sure...

[Nye Bevan]

41. Uh-oh. Sounds like someone got a speeding ticket (nt)

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. "An America (temporarily) without police is turning out to be less dangerous"? What happened?

All the police in the USA have been sacked, gone on strike, resigned - what? Why has this not shown up in the news?

What the fuck are you talking about?

[cali]

45. yes, that's going to happen.

when hell freezes over, dear.

[Motown_Johnny]

47. Because nothing bad could possibly happen during the transition.

You are not thinking this through.


These types of jobs will always draw the same personality types.

[NRaleighLiberal]

51. there's thinking big....and then there's this.

Sorry - bad idea to my thinking.

[MADem]

53. "Police system?" We have individual police departments, not a "police system."

Each department is led by a chief or a sheriff, appointed or elected, depending. We have city and town police departments, we have state police. All have individual chains of command.

The closest thing we have to a "national police system" would be the FBI.

The entire proposal is ludicrous.

[slackmaster]

54. Bring Back Sheriff Andy Taylor

[Hoyt]

62. No joke.

[dionysus]

55. misguided ideas for 500 alex.

[Zalatix]

57. As absurd as sitting and watching the police get worse and worse

until they're more dangerous than the criminals we call them to stop?

Oh wait, too late!!!

[RZM]

112. I wonder how many pregnant women are beaten by non-police in a year?

Because if it's more than the number that police beat, you're going to have a tough time arguing that the cops are 'more dangerous than the criminals' in that regard.

[Zalatix]

114. Perhaps you are right.

Their kids will have to wait to be born to be brutalized by an increasingly militarized and psychopathic police system that now gets away with killing homeless men and beating Occupiers just for being out in the sun.

Perhaps things aren't bad enough for people to wake up.

What is most certain is that with the police's Blue Code of Silence and their increasing militarization, piecemeal reforms will be like pouring good water into bad.

Piecemeal solutions won't work. Everyone who's bashing me will find this out, hopefully not in person.

[bakpakr]

60. My solution

1. Demilitarize the police.

Yes there are many officers that are prior service and currently serving in the armed services. But the police are not an army as much as they think they are. Their primary job is to enforce the laws of the land not to wage war.

2. Enact more community based policing. Get a large number out of their cars and walking a beat.

3. If an officer is accused of any wrong doing or a suspension is warranted make the suspension hurt a bit. Until the investigation is completed they are not paid. If they are cleared then they are paid, if they are found to have done something wrong they are not paid for the suspension.

4. Along with an internal investigation a civilian panel of local citizens (the same way juries are selected) is empowered to investigate any accusations of wrong doing. The civilian panels findings and recommendations are to be binding and MUST be enforced.

5. Limit the police forces and officers immunity.

6. Any officer found guilty of a crime will be sentenced to double the sentence that a civilian would receive for the same crime.

7. Any officer found guilty of a crime or a selected number of non criminal offenses loses all accreditation and certifications for life.

That is just a start.

[NCTraveler]

61. unrec. nt.

[FSogol]

63. Same here, unrec.

There are places with excellent police departments. Move there or work to change your local department.

[SunsetDreams]

65. If only we could unrec

that would be nice in cases like this.

[Zalatix]

73. Uh huh, so instead you'd prefer this?

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/one_day_well_all_be_terrorists_20091228/

[NCTraveler]

75. I really don't think you are serious.

I have read a number of your posts where it is clear that no real world thought went into them. It is becoming comical.

The truth is, I think you are having fun trying to make du look bad. Where do you go to brag about your heroics here?

This is why I won't even begin to show you how flawed your op is. I am sure that you are aware of the awesome level of fail on display.

[Zalatix]

78. I really DO think you are being childish.

Nobody here is trying to make the DU look bad except trollers like you who offer absolutely nothing to the discussion except empty bucket rants and personal attacks like the one you just posted.

I'll close this by saying you obviously prefer the status quo - and when the police gangs finally get around to showing you how useful they are, you will hopefully live to regret your FAILED attitude.

[NCTraveler]

84. That was not a rant. It was an observation.

This simplistic way of thinking is comical. Your op is empty. Just another observation.

[Zalatix]

87. A rather myopic and childish observation. Naive, too.

But as this Plutonomy continues to develop you will learn just how fundamentally broken and in bad need of a total reconstruction our law enforcement system is.

A troll would have said we need no cops, period. I am merely saying we need to rebuild the system from scratch, using standards that do NOT encourage infestations by fucking psychopaths.

We're going to get absolutely nowhere by hiring 'good' cops into the existing system. That's like pouring pristine water into Cholera-infected water and hoping we dillute it out of existence. The existing Blue code that police gangs live by, will just keep on polluting.

But I am sure that you don't really believe this. You will, of course, if you run afoul of police brutality and discover the nature of the blue code of silence.

[dionysus]

89. "except trollers like you" ...ROFL

[randome]

66. How about passing a law forbidding derivative, violence-prone cop shows?

That would have the added benefit of clearing the public airwaves for better programming. Or...maybe not.

[FrodosPet]

116. Ummmm, NO!

Just double checking...that is satire, correct?

[randome]

122. Correct!

It seems about as relevant a post as some of the others on this thread!

[FSogol]

67. Every police department in the US is under civilian control.

Don't like your local police? Get involved and change them. Spare us the sophomoric bomb-throwing rhetorical nonsense.

[Comrade Grumpy]

79. But not under effective civilian control. Cops fight tooth and nail against that.

[FSogol]

103. Change it. n/t

[Zalatix]

104. How?

[FSogol]

108. Make the police an election issue. Vote out the guys who put the police overseers in charge.

Join a police/citizen advisory committee. Get to know the cops in your area. Complain to local politicians and state politicians. Start a reform movement., Did you know that some areas have wonderful police departments? Try to get your area to make the police more professional and copy the areas that have good departments. Etc, etc.

[hifiguy]

69. Civilian review boards with the power to fire cops

would be a long step in the right direction.

[FarCenter]

71. Right --- And 2 million George Zimmermans volunteer...

[Uncle Joe]

86. I believe the chief focus should be on eliminating the profit motive for imprisoning the

American People.

It's the lust for money fueled by the so called "War on Drugs" that primarily feeds and corrupts law enforcement; while disconnecting it from the people for which the police are charged to "serve and protect."

A war mentality and that of civilian, domestic protection are incompatible especially over the long run, the former will corrupt the latter if by no other means aggravating psychological estrangement between the force and the citizens.

You can watch this play out on corporate media television programming propaganda as well, with the continuous 24/7 display of dead bodies and autopsies broadcast on a virtually limitless number of redundant, police type programs.

Corporate media police propaganda has come a long way down the war path since Andy Griffith or even Barney Miller, it's a sign of our times and effects from the corruptive, dysfunctional, and insane "War on Drugs" turning citizens in to enemies.

The police don't trust the people and the people increasingly don't trust the police.

Thanks for the thread, Zalatix.

[spin]

91. I knew a retired police officer with 20 years on a major city's police force ...

that said , "I would never be interested in becoming a cop today."

He also said that he felt the younger cops just joining the department were a bunch of gorillas and that was not all that surprising as the job is far too dangerous and pays far too little to attract most qualified people.

[MineralMan]

95. Who is "we," and what mechanism will "we" use to accomplish this?

It seems like nobody every has an answer to that when they're proposing sweeping changes.

In the case of police departments, there's no single entity that controls them. For the most part, they're a department of an individual city. So, I can't find any mechanism available to "eliminate the entire police system in this country."

Beyond that, even if it were possible, what sort of police system do you have in mind that would fix the problem, while still dealing with criminal activity?

I'm sorry, but impossible broad-brush solutions without any plan are essentially useless.

[dionysus]

101. i guess you're gonna have to start patrolling your block with an M-1.

[MineralMan]

124. Don't have an M-1. I do have a .30-'06 Springfield deer rifle, though,

and a nice shotgun. I won't be patrolling any streets with them, though. I'll just keep them in the house where I can get at them if needed.

[NCTraveler]

129. Well.

"eliminate the entire police system in this country."

I hear that neighborhood watch captains work out great.

We could use that until a solution is put in place.

PSA: MS13 fully supports this idea.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

96. Repeal and replace is not going to work with health care reform

and it won't help with solving problems with the police. And that's even assuming that people has a consensus view on the "replace" part, which people surely don't.

[SidDithers]

126. Sounds like "we need to destroy the village to save the village"...

Sid

[JoeyT]

146. The smell of

Kiwi is strong in this thread. So far my favorite post so far amounted to "I'm a lawyer and friends with prosecutors and the police have never been mean to ME!".


I actually disagree with your solution. Mine would be more along the lines of immediately putting a stop to the militarization, the war on drugs, taking away all their WOT toys, and creating civilian review boards that the police have zero control over to handle complaints of malfeasance. And giving those review boards real teeth. I'd also like to see a national law enforcement registry so bad cops that eventually do enough shit that it can't be hidden anymore can't just hop to another jurisdiction (Which is common).

[Skip Intro]

147. Damn, I'm glad you're not in charge.

Do we let prisoners run free too, feeding the chaos?

Am I allowed to have a gun to defend myself during this lawless period? Well, I guess I am, since it is a lawless period. Or do you think criminals will call a holiday too?

How many cops are there in this country? Every state, every county, every city and town, has cops, who swear to uphold the law, put their lives on the line daily, never knowing if their next call will be their last. In my mind they are the line between a civilized society and a war zone. Why do you want to paint all these people as something so objectionable when a tiny fraction of them turn out to be psychopaths? That doesn't make all other cops psychopaths. Does it?

I'll keep law-enforcement, thank you. If there's some guy shooting pizza delivery drivers, I want somebody out there trying to find the nut.

[Zalatix]

149. Then please, enjoy the system as it burns itself to the ground.

And it will do so even if I drop dead tonight and I stop spouting this "nonsense".

Have fun throwing your thimbles-of-water solutions at the roaring inferno that's consuming not only our law enforcement system but also our economy.

[KatChatter]

148. Yes we do need to start over but first

the USA has to be dissolved first, no more 50 states united.

we will be better off in the long run.

Let the South and Fly over states turn into the gun toting, Jeezus praying, fascist nation states they long to be.

Homo sapiens did not coddle and help the Neanderthals when they co existed, homo sapiens let the Neanderthals to their own devices and we all know what happened, well at least those that believe in evolution.

[treestar]

150. You're such a funny guy!

Who is going to work on serial killer cases? Can we keep the detectives?

What will this new system be like?

[Zalatix]

153. The system serves you great as long as you're not a homeless guy

or a protester. Or a black man.

[treestar]

160. But what will we do about robberies and murders?

Can we keep detectives to arrest people for those things? Or is it wrong to arrest people for those things?

[Scootaloo]

152. No, we need to PENALIZE OFFENDERS in the police departments

The core of the problem is that individual officers are above the law, and their precincts and departments are afforded no responsibility.

First offense of brutalization, the officer is on the streets. Bam, find a new line of work, skinhead. No internal investigation, no deliberation, the DA simply puts the guy out on his ass. Third offense in one precinct, leadership is disbanded and replaced by interim leaders. If more than 50% of a city's police precincts are compromised, the feds move in.

This is how it works in nursing homes, more or less. if a nurse is seen abusing a resident, there are no questions of why, or if it was "justified." That nurse is out on their ass, and the union will not stand by them (provided there's evidence of the abuse.) A nursing home that has chronic abuse issues gets shut down by the state and the residents moved to safer homes.

This is on top of criminal charges for property damage, loss of life and limb, harassment, and theft.

No man is above the law. Doesn't matter how little neck they have or now close they shave their scalp, Officer Scrofa needs to realize he can be thrown in prison just as easily as he can throw someone else in there.

[Zalatix]

154. And how are we going to do that?

We as a society have tried to do that already but have failed.

[Scootaloo]

155. Elections and pressure on our elected officials

it's more workable than "throw them all out and start over." Hard work, but more realistic, and allows for the possibility that the mythical "good cop" isn't such a myth.

[Zalatix]

157. True, we've never tried any of that before.

[Scootaloo]

158. If you just want to yell at clouds, be my guest

If you want to see change, this is how you do it.

[Zalatix]

159. If you want to get on the hamster wheel, be my guest.

Just remember, that wheel has gone nowhere and it's going nowhere.

When your way finally does work, unlike the many many times it has been tried before, c'mon back and rub it in.

I'll wait.

[Zalatix]

164. Anaheim CA police sic their police dog upon women and children... enjoy!

This is the law enforcement system that so many people want so desperately to preserve.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002

Be glad this didn't happen to you.