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Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:48 PM

We should not be pro abortion!

We should be pro education, pro contriception, and pro choice.

200 replies, 13745 views

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Reply We should not be pro abortion! (Original post)
Soxfan58 Aug 2017 OP
Weekend Warrior Aug 2017 #1
Warpy Aug 2017 #55
Weekend Warrior Aug 2017 #58
SJMULE Aug 2017 #131
still_one Aug 2017 #133
MaryLouisaWillis Aug 2017 #155
demmiblue Aug 2017 #2
Atman Aug 2017 #3
loyalsister Aug 2017 #25
PJMcK Aug 2017 #33
loyalsister Aug 2017 #59
ehrnst Aug 2017 #100
loyalsister Aug 2017 #104
Ninsianna Aug 2017 #42
loyalsister Aug 2017 #60
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #63
Ninsianna Aug 2017 #76
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #81
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #85
Act_of_Reparation Aug 2017 #88
MountCleaners Aug 2017 #126
Ms. Toad Aug 2017 #137
Act_of_Reparation Aug 2017 #160
Ms. Toad Aug 2017 #162
Act_of_Reparation Aug 2017 #168
Ms. Toad Aug 2017 #183
Mariana Aug 2017 #174
Ms. Toad Aug 2017 #181
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #164
Ms. Toad Aug 2017 #169
Voltaire2 Aug 2017 #199
Ninsianna Aug 2017 #144
loyalsister Aug 2017 #82
Ninsianna Aug 2017 #147
Atman Aug 2017 #46
loyalsister Aug 2017 #73
loyalsister Aug 2017 #97
ehrnst Aug 2017 #91
ehrnst Aug 2017 #92
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #105
ehrnst Aug 2017 #116
ehrnst Aug 2017 #200
Voltaire2 Aug 2017 #198
loyalsister Aug 2017 #96
ehrnst Aug 2017 #98
loyalsister Aug 2017 #102
ehrnst Aug 2017 #117
loyalsister Aug 2017 #125
ehrnst Aug 2017 #134
WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2017 #30
Weekend Warrior Aug 2017 #159
metalbot Aug 2017 #192
Hekate Aug 2017 #4
wryter2000 Aug 2017 #5
NurseJackie Aug 2017 #12
WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2017 #16
CrispyQ Aug 2017 #18
ehrnst Aug 2017 #93
WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2017 #118
tonedevil Aug 2017 #184
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #189
A HERETIC I AM Aug 2017 #17
mountain grammy Aug 2017 #19
David__77 Aug 2017 #22
wryter2000 Aug 2017 #34
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #75
ehrnst Aug 2017 #124
Pachamama Aug 2017 #154
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #64
Renew Deal Aug 2017 #52
jmg257 Aug 2017 #178
brucefan Aug 2017 #6
CountAllVotes Aug 2017 #7
elehhhhna Aug 2017 #49
Pachamama Aug 2017 #156
irisblue Aug 2017 #8
stonecutter357 Aug 2017 #9
Eliot Rosewater Aug 2017 #10
WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2017 #14
6000eliot Aug 2017 #11
irisblue Aug 2017 #15
6000eliot Aug 2017 #21
irisblue Aug 2017 #24
unblock Aug 2017 #57
OriginalGeek Aug 2017 #62
WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2017 #13
Oneironaut Aug 2017 #20
WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2017 #27
blackdove78 Aug 2017 #47
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #83
bettyellen Aug 2017 #23
Caliman73 Aug 2017 #26
lark Aug 2017 #28
Intransigent Atheist Aug 2017 #29
WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2017 #32
David__77 Aug 2017 #31
Thomas Hurt Aug 2017 #35
demmiblue Aug 2017 #37
LineLineReply .
WhiskeyGrinder Aug 2017 #38
ProudLib72 Aug 2017 #36
Proud Liberal Dem Aug 2017 #39
hlthe2b Aug 2017 #40
shenmue Aug 2017 #53
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #84
hlthe2b Aug 2017 #86
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #87
LeftyMom Aug 2017 #41
blackdove78 Aug 2017 #48
LeftyMom Aug 2017 #56
ehrnst Aug 2017 #123
fishwax Aug 2017 #43
xajj4791 Aug 2017 #44
DefenseLawyer Aug 2017 #45
LexVegas Aug 2017 #50
syringis Aug 2017 #51
get the red out Aug 2017 #54
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #79
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #61
librechik Aug 2017 #65
Heddi Aug 2017 #67
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #68
Heddi Aug 2017 #66
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #70
Solly Mack Aug 2017 #143
hamsterjill Aug 2017 #69
dembotoz Aug 2017 #71
johnp3907 Aug 2017 #72
ehrnst Aug 2017 #99
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #109
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #110
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #112
ehrnst Aug 2017 #115
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #119
ehrnst Aug 2017 #121
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #132
ehrnst Aug 2017 #158
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #185
ehrnst Aug 2017 #187
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #190
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #74
Freethinker65 Aug 2017 #77
politicat Aug 2017 #78
Hekate Aug 2017 #80
demmiblue Aug 2017 #95
marybourg Aug 2017 #89
ehrnst Aug 2017 #90
madokie Aug 2017 #94
hamsterjill Aug 2017 #106
DrDan Aug 2017 #101
Bettie Aug 2017 #103
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #111
Major Nikon Aug 2017 #146
Me. Aug 2017 #107
greymattermom Aug 2017 #108
ebbie15644 Aug 2017 #113
jmg257 Aug 2017 #114
Solly Mack Aug 2017 #120
johnp3907 Aug 2017 #127
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #135
Solly Mack Aug 2017 #139
johnp3907 Aug 2017 #140
Solly Mack Aug 2017 #142
Mariana Aug 2017 #163
Solly Mack Aug 2017 #165
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #136
Solly Mack Aug 2017 #141
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #148
WinkyDink Aug 2017 #152
Solly Mack Aug 2017 #170
WinkyDink Aug 2017 #171
Solly Mack Aug 2017 #172
Lil Missy Aug 2017 #122
Lebam in LA Aug 2017 #128
Hekate Aug 2017 #129
Me. Aug 2017 #130
pwb Aug 2017 #138
WinkyDink Aug 2017 #151
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #166
Warren DeMontague Aug 2017 #145
Voltaire2 Aug 2017 #149
LAS14 Aug 2017 #167
Voltaire2 Aug 2017 #173
LAS14 Aug 2017 #193
Voltaire2 Aug 2017 #195
Mariana Aug 2017 #175
50 Shades Of Blue Aug 2017 #177
LAS14 Aug 2017 #194
50 Shades Of Blue Aug 2017 #196
beam me up scottie Aug 2017 #186
WinkyDink Aug 2017 #150
Pachamama Aug 2017 #153
Tetunot Aug 2017 #157
LanternWaste Aug 2017 #161
50 Shades Of Blue Aug 2017 #176
FSogol Aug 2017 #179
Raine1967 Aug 2017 #180
Skittles Aug 2017 #182
tenderfoot Aug 2017 #188
AtheistCrusader Aug 2017 #191
Iggo Aug 2017 #197

Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:49 PM

1. Who is "pro abortion"? nt.

 

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Response to Weekend Warrior (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:10 PM

55. It's like being pro gallbladder surgery

Yes, it can save your life if you need it, but nobody really wants to go through it.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #55)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:22 PM

58. Thank you for the laugh. nt.

 

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Response to Weekend Warrior (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:21 PM

131. Well if you ask any Christian Conservative R- winger

 

Women and girls are having abortions all the time because they need to go on vacation, go out on a date or out drinking, to fit in their bikini,or they dont want to sell their two seat sports car.....

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Response to Weekend Warrior (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:25 PM

133. That is an important distinction. Pro-choice, is NOT pro abortion. That is what choice is all

about

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Response to Weekend Warrior (Reply #1)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 07:33 AM

155. Ummm yeah

that seems rather obvious.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:49 PM

2. Oh, good lawd!

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:51 PM

3. I've never met anyone who is "pro abortion."

That's ridiculous.

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Response to Atman (Reply #3)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:00 PM

25. I am

I trust that a woman who thinks abortion is her best option is making a valid decision, maybe even a good decision if she decides to have an abortion. I support that without condition because I am pro-whatever decision she wants to make about her bodily investment in pregnency.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:05 PM

33. Understood

Yet I interpret your view as "pro-choice" since you're trusting the pregnant woman to know what is best for her circumstances.

Regardless, I think we're in complete agreement concerning who has the right to make personal decisions.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #33)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:23 PM

59. Exactly

I am pro apendectomies, pro-heart bypasses, pro elective surgeries that fix something that do not present a medical risk or problem. For example, cosmetic surgery, etc.
I think some elective cosmetic surgeries ultimately enable the social rejection of people who do not reach an ideal standard of appearance, and I have a personal problem with perpetuating those ideals. Thus, I find the beauty culture pressure that people (most often women) are confronted with offensive.

I would love to see a shift in a direction that would not encourage that pressure. But, I also see it as a valid personal choice that may offer comfort.

Given my personal opposition to the messages sent by widespread use of surgical procedures to "improve" appearance, some might interpret my position as anti-cosmetic surgery. I have known people who passionately view those decisions with judgement, and I don't think that is fair. To not be generally pro-elective cosmetic surgery is to enable a rigid point of view that supports social pressures in the alternate direction.

In some instances it is necessary to take a side.

I admit to the validity of any position but I consider my pro abortion and pro-cosmetic surgery because I believe those options are valid and, in that sense, as good and equally moral as the alternative.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #59)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:08 PM

100. You are supportive of them in the context of consent.

 

That is to say that you would not be supportive of any procedure not consented to by a competent adult.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #100)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:15 PM

104. And yet

I support the existence of the procedure. In the case of abortion, I am adamently supportive because there are forces that want to see the elimination of the procedure itself.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:31 PM

42. How is that "pro-abortion"? That's a bit like being pro-appendectomy or

some other such thing.

I trust that a woman is capable of choosing her medical procedures with the advice of her physician and anyone else she deems worthy of weighing in on her decision.

The procedure itself is a whole other thing, and it's weird to be pro or anti a medical procedure in a general sense.

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Response to Ninsianna (Reply #42)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:24 PM

60. I am in favor of the existance of the procedure

Pro abortion.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #60)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:42 PM

63. I agree with you. It's not a difficult concept.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #60)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:30 PM

76. Um, that doesn't make sense.

Why would the existence of a medical procedure that's been around since the beginning of history require anyone to be in favor of it?

This whole "pro-abortion" thing is an emotional manipulation by anti-choice zealots (many of whom are pro-choosing to have an abortion when it's their own pregnancy or someone that they love).

Are you in favor of the existence of other kind of horrific but medically necessary/recommended procedures? Amputation? Mastectomy? etc.

I'm just frustrated any time we give even so much as a nanometer to the hateful idiots who make it their life's work to harass, terrorize and abuse women and doctors seeking to make medical decisions about what's in the best interest of their own (or their patient's) bodies.

Conceding this preposterous position that we need to be in favor of established medical procedures or against it, is just irritating.

I totally agree with you, I'm very much in favor of women choosing what's best for them. I'm in favor of pregnancy by choice, delivery by choice, and motherhood by choice, and the existence of all those things.

I'm also not pro-abortion, since that's a case when something has gone wrong. Either maldevelopment of a wanted pregnancy, or a pregnancy happened when it was not desired and now a woman/girl has to go through the onerous task of seeking out and getting a procedure that so many make into something more than the regular medical care it is.

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Response to Ninsianna (Reply #76)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:45 PM

81. If they work day and night to restrict or ban mastectomy, I will become pro-mastectomy.

Always with the wider understanding that it is FOR people who CHOOSE it on informed consent based on their circumstances.

But yes, I'm pro-abortion because they are chipping away at it, every fucking day.

this happened 5h ago.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/judge-rejects-abortion-law-putting-minors-through-trial-like-hearing/ar-AApfz9E


Look at what they are doing. LOOK. Look at the absolute shit they want to put people through.

Hell yes I'm pro-abortion.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #81)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:51 PM

85. Thank you!

Are you in favor of the existence of other kind of horrific but medically necessary/recommended procedures? Amputation? Mastectomy? etc.


What the hell does that even mean?

Of course I'm pro-mastectomy and pro-amputation.

Well said.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #81)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 04:14 PM

88. +100. "Pro-choice" is a lukewarm-bordering-cowardly term.

People use it because they are trying to distance themselves from what abortion necessarily entails.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #88)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:17 PM

126. I agree

I never liked the term - it smacks of puritanism and pearl-clutching. I am female and I say that I support abortion rights.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #88)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:33 PM

137. Nonsense. I use it because it is exactly what I mean.

Women have the right to choose whether, and when, to bear children.

A pregnant woman has at least two options to choose from; abortion is only one of them.The minute I become pro-abortion, rather than choice, I am puting my finger on a scale it has no business being on. That makes me no better than the "pro-life" advocates who put their finger on the other side of the scale.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #137)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 10:20 AM

160. So you think the term "pro-abortion" implies removal of patient choice.

That's fascinating, given that kind of association is almost never applied to other advocacy groups. In almost every conceivable case, being "pro-" anything necessarily implies choice. It is assumed that if pot is legalized, those who do not want to smoke pot will choose not to. Pro-feminists assume those who do not wish to identify as feminists will choose not to. It is assumed that if pornography remains available for public consumption, those who want nothing to do with it will choose not to buy it.

And to be perfectly honest, choice isn't the issue. The anti-abortionists aren't looking to rob people of choice generally, but to take away a particular choice they believe is immoral. The choice argument is therefore peripheral, and doesn't address their primary criticisms. Arguing that abortion is perfectly moral and should be normalized, however, addresses the anti-abortionists head-on.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #160)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 10:43 AM

162. So pro-life implies choice?

Who knew?

But seriously, that is the context for this discussion.

And choice is very much the issue, because those on the other side want to remove the right to choose if and when to bear children.

Frankly, many of the people who identify themselves as pro-abortion, including people on DU, really do advocate against choice, when the choice made differs with theirs (especially when it involves having more than a few children or giving birth and then giving the child up for adoption, as two specific examples that come up frequently.

Pro means advocating for whatever follows. I am advocating for women to be able to make the best choice for themselves. I am not advocating for them to choose either life, or abortion. That is why pro-choice is the appropriate term - it is none of my business which choice they make. It is my business to help ensure they have the right to choose.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #162)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 11:19 AM

168. They would say yes.

The available choices are absurdly limited -- have children or abstain from sex -- but say they are "anti-choice" and that is exactly how they would respond.

Their position is that abortion is immoral, that it is a deplorable act, that it is murder. The choice argument patently fails to address that. Through omission it concedes the morality issue to the right. That may leave abortion legal, but it also leaves the doors wide open for shaming women who have gotten abortions or who are considering getting the procedure.

Frankly, many of the people who identify themselves as pro-abortion, including people on DU, really do advocate against choice, when the choice made differs with theirs (especially when it involves having more than a few children or giving birth and then giving the child up for adoption, as two specific examples that come up frequently.


I don't find anecdotes particularly compelling. If I looked hard enough, I'm sure I could find a couple of secular anti-abortionists. That doesn't mean secular anti-abortionists are anything to be concerned about.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #168)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 05:39 PM

183. I have not met a single pro-life person who would describe themselves as pro-choice.

The only acceptable choice is life - and they are very clear about that. It is part of the title they choose for themselves, and their entire focus.

I'm just reporting what I have experienced in conversations on DU wiht people that runs counter to your assertion pro-abortion really implies advocating for choice. You can choose to ignore it, or not. I am explaining why I find it offensive to be told that anything short of pro-abortion is "a lukewarm-bordering-cowardly term," or that I am using it "because {I am} trying to distance {myself} from what abortion necessarily entails."

You are free to call yourself whatever you want. But it is offensive for you to cast aspersions on me for making a different choice. That was my point. Many of us who call ourselves pro-choice are making an affirmative statement about empowering all women to make whatever choices are appropriate for themselves, even if is is a choice with which we don't agree.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #162)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 04:26 PM

174. Frankly, many of the people who identify themselves...

That is a crock of shit. Very, very few who identify as pro-abortion advocate against choice. It is true that many criticize other people's choices that they consider foolish. That is NOT advocating against choice and it is extremely dishonest to claim that it is. Criticizing a particular choice is not the same as denying someone the right to make that choice.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #174)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 05:29 PM

181. Ask the people against whom such criticism is directed if there is a meaningful difference.

When people who self-identify as pro-abortion consistently criticize choices other than abortion (as some I have encountered here - and elsewhere - do), that is not supporting choice. If there is only one acceptable choice (terminating pregnancy), being pro-abortion does not imply empowering women to make whatever choice is appropriate for their particular circumstances. It is not your business to judge whether you find their choice is foolish or not - and I have encountered too many people who identify as pro-abortion who simultaneously cruticize women who choose to continue a pregnancy - but not those who choose to terminate it - to believe there is an accidental correlation.

I am not saying that people who are pro-abortion use the same tactics as people who are pro-life, or pose anywhere near the threat the pro-life people do. I am not saying you have to call
yourself pro-life. I am explaining why pro-abortion, in my experience, is NOT the same as advocating that all women be empowered and able to make whatever choice is right for them. I.e. it is NOT pro-choice. It is far too frequently pro-choice-as-long-as-you-choose-the-path-I-deem-not-foolish.

I am pro-choice, and not because (as the post I responded to alleged) I am "lukewarm-bordering-cowardly" and "trying to distance {myself} from what abortion necessarily entails." You are perfectly free to call yourself pro-abortion, but don't cast aspersions on others who call themselves pro-choice because we really are deeply committed to empowering women to make whatever the appropriate choice is for them.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #137)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 10:55 AM

164. There is no similarity between the two positions.

'Pro Abortion' means keeping it legal and available, and for many of us, working to eliminate the bullshit social stigma that comes with it (which you can even hear in this thread with people mewling over 'a hard decision', when for many it is not, and it need not be for anyone.)

'Pro Life' or anti-abortion seeks to remove a choice from others.

It would be 'equal' if the 'pro abortion' position was to pressure people into having an abortion, or mandating it under XYZ circumstances. Something we don't do.

Making sure something is available as a choice, is not the 180 degree opposite thing as removing it as a choice. Mandating it would be 180 degrees opposite from banning it, but nobody is advocating to mandate it.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #164)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 11:22 AM

169. You are obviously not encountering the same pro-abortion people I have,

Including on DU, who are actively advocating for taking choice away, and/or shaming women who choose to have several children- or to bear a child and give it up for adoption.

The tactics of at least significant portion of people who identify themselves as pro-abortion may not be as extreme as those who identify as pro-abortion - but their position is every bit as much advocating for a specific choice (abortion) rather than for every woman to be able to make the choice that is right for her.

It is none of my business if a woman who has 5 children wants a 6th. It is her right to make that choice. Just as it was my mother's right to choose to seek an abortion for what would have been her 6th child (4 by adoption). There are DU pro-abortion members who would have condemned the former for her choice just as surely as pro-life advocates would condemn my mother. Neither is appropriate - it is none of our business. Our business is ensuring the right of all women to make either choice. Hence pro-choice. It is not a word chosen not to offend; it is literally what I mean.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #169)

Thu Aug 3, 2017, 06:16 AM

199. I don't think there are a lot of people advocating compulsory abortions.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #81)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 07:15 PM

144. I'm just saying that focusing on the procedure itself, when that's what they're

using to club us with is not helpful.

It cedes ground to them.

They're not chipping away at abortion, they're chipping away at autonomy, basic human rights, a woman's ownership of her own body, a doctor's duty and ability to treat her patient.

All because they're pointing to the procedure itself and what it looks like. Take some gory pictures of knee surgery (or pregnancy for that matter) and people will be grossed out.

I'm tired of how they get to ignore what they're actually doing because we get distracted by having to defend the "icky sounding procedure".

I'm looking at what they're doing, and I understand the actual shit they want to put people through, and I'm saying don't concede ANY ground to them.

Don't let them make it about the procedure, that's what they want. What they're doing is more vile than that it, it's the the concession that women are not worthy of the basic human rights that we don't violate on the worst criminal, AFTER they've been executed, even that cadaver has more rights than these terrorists are grant a living woman.

It's not about the mastectomy or the D&C, it's about the fact that women are not considered human beings. Don't let them have a nanometer on THAT front, it doesn't even go into what the procedure is, it should stop at the question of autonomy that they keep insisting that girls and women do not have the basic right to.

So hell yes, be Pro-Autonomy, pro-choice, pro-bodily integrity, pro-human rights don't even get to the point where you need to specify which procedures we need to be thankful for! That's too much concession.

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Response to Ninsianna (Reply #76)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:47 PM

82. Maybe because people want it to be illegal?

If someone is pro legal abortion they are pro abortion, unless they think it is reasonable to have an opinion on whether that is the choice someone makes.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #82)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 07:24 PM

147. They also want to make a great many things illegal, so conceding that much ground to

them is unacceptable.

They want to make contraception illegal as well. Why do we need to concede all these things?

Being pro-choice is not being "pro-abortion". That's the terminology they use to demonize us, and attack us. Do we really care that much WHAT procedure or medication they wish to decide to make illegal, or are we about destroying the basis of their argument: that women are not human beings worthy of basic human rights?

I'm saying do not give them the ground at all. I don't care what these terrorists want to be illegal, since that's a huge list, from comprehensive sex education, to effective contraception to affordable care.

These are not reasonable people, reject the basis of their argument, that they have the right to violate the basic human rights of women for whatever reason or fairy tale they concoct.

It isn't about a D&C or an abortifacient, or contraceptive, or whatever it is they wish to attack on, it's about reject as a whole that it's even up for debate that a woman has basic rights to her bodily integrity, to autonomy or to access to medical care, no matter what that specific care is.

I'm tired of them spelling out all the positions and the terminology, when while pretending they're not anti-life, anti-choice, and not terribly pro-fetus, pro-pregnancy or even anti-abortion, since their policies do not in anyway reduce abortion.

The way we do that is to make every pregnancy a WANTED one, and to address all the reasons that make abortion a painful decision for women (the health reasons, the job reasons, the financial reasons etc. etc. etc.)

It should be no more anyone's business than any other medical procedure, be it elective or emergent.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:39 PM

46. That is not "pro abortion."

That is pro-choice. That is being an informed adult who understands the incredible decision a woman faces when placed in this situation. But to say you're "pro abortion" isn't right. I'm not "pro liver transplant," I don't go around telling people they should replace their vital organs. But I understand that sometimes people are faced with difficult choices and difficult medical and personal situations, and I believe they should be able to make those decisions without interference from bible-thumping government officials. That's much different than being "pro abortion."

In contrast, I'm pro-food, pro-education, pro-science...

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Response to Atman (Reply #46)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:07 PM

73. It goes beyond that

Not only do I support the choice, I am also fan of the procedure itself as an available option. Pro-abortion.

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Response to Atman (Reply #46)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 04:45 PM

97. It is pro abortion to favor the legality

It means I am not only in favor of a right to make the choice. I am in favor of the possibility to make the choice, which is only possible if I am in favor of the procedure itself.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #25)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 04:31 PM

91. Which would make you anti-abortion is it's coerced or forced.

 

It's more accurate to say that you are pro-choice.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #91)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 04:33 PM

92. I think that divorce should be legal, but that doesn't make me "pro-divorce"

 

Any more than me being opposed to arranged marriages makes me "anti-marriage."

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #92)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:16 PM

105. If conservatives were working to constrain and disallow divorce, you might classify yourself that

way.

Consider a scenario where waiting periods and counseling, and bans on divorce after X period of time, were codified in state law by conservatives.

You might take a 'pro-divorce' activist stance after all, rather than being 'pro-choice on marriage'.


There's a lot more to family planning than simply abortion, and to say 'I'm Pro-Choice' doesn't explicitly underline what I am willing to support. I might be just pro comprehensive sex-ed, or pro contraceptives, etc.


I happily identify as Pro Abortion because I am specifically standing up in support of this specific procedure to ensure it is legal and accessible. There are many aspects of family planning that are under attack, but Abortion bears the brunt of their concentrated efforts.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #105)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:01 PM

116. I would classify myself being supportive of consent and choice in any decision.

 

I would be opposed to obstacles to someone choosing what they, as a competent adult, would choose.

That would cover it all.

(However, I will point out the difference in the comparison to waiting periods in a medical procedure that is time restricted to waiting periods in another situation. Many who are anti-choice will gloss over the the very real onerous conditions that waiting periods on abortion create in the ability of a woman to get a timely abortion. Waiting periods for gun purchases do not create those medical hazards, and would indeed create a "cooling off period" in instances of a rage purchase, with no negative consequences for the purchaser.)

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #105)


Response to ehrnst (Reply #92)

Thu Aug 3, 2017, 06:14 AM

198. it makes you anti arranged marriage.

I'm pro divorce too. I'm enthusiastically in favor of allowing people to terminate marriage contracts as easily as the enter into them, without any stigma.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #91)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 04:42 PM

96. How exactly?

Opposing medical coercion does not mean I am not PRO (as in- in favor of) the medical procedure of abortion as an available option.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #96)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:03 PM

98. I didn't say it did.

 

You are anti-abortion when it is COERCED, or required of a woman.

You certainly aren't pro-coerced or required abortion, are you?

This addresses the circumstances surrounding abortion, which are indeed an issue.

I am pro-marriage, but not when it is arranged. The term "pro" does have qualifiers.

That is why the term "pro-choice" was determined to be more accurate when describing the political position concerning abortion (or any medical procedure, really. No one is pro-unneccesary or uninformed medical procedures.)

Is that clearer?

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #98)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:12 PM

102. I don't understand how you make that leap

I am not pro-forcing a person to have a medical procedure. But I am certainly pro - an opportunity to have surgical procedures. An opportunity to make a choice is not the equivilant of an imposition of a choice.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #102)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:04 PM

117. Any medical procedure or condition imposed without consent - be it forced childbearing or abortion

 

is not a positive situation. Consent withheld converts lovemaking to rape, for instance. The removal of consent from marriage converts it to an abuse. Being against rape does not make one anti-sex, and vice verca. Consent is the only constant that one should advocate in any of those. And that's what I think you actually advocate.

A procedure does not exist until it is performed - it is a concept prior to being performed, and consent is an integral part of performing a procedure.

Is that clearer?

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #117)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:16 PM

125. "Being against rape does not make one anti-sex, and vice verca"

That is exactly what I have been saying. I am in favor of the availability of the medical procedure known as abortion, just as I am in favor of the fact that sex is a part of human behavioral repetiore. I oppose the act of coercing abortion or any other surgical procedure just as I oppose coercive sex.

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Response to loyalsister (Reply #125)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:26 PM

134. Then you are pro (whatever is consentual - which is choice) which also includes adoption.

 

That would confuse an anti-choicer, because they don't see it from a consent point of view.

They see pro-abortion as anti-adoption, or anti-birth, because choice isn't part of their concept, and the terminology doesn't address consent.

Pro-choice addresses all of them in one term.

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Response to Atman (Reply #3)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:04 PM

30. Hey there, nice to meet you.

I'm a fan of safe, proven, routine healthcare procedures that make people's lives better. Abortion fits the bill.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #30)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 08:43 AM

159. I'm all for that as an available option. Nt

 

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Response to Atman (Reply #3)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 06:52 PM

192. I've met a few

Mostly anti-population extremists who essentially argue that people should have more abortions.

Just a handful in my entire life though...

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:52 PM

4. Offs, Soxfan58

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:52 PM

5. No one is pro abortion

Period

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:54 PM

12. True. Thank you.

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:55 PM

16. Not true.

When it comes to looking for a tactic that ends an unwanted pregnancy, I'm pro-abortion.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #16)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:57 PM

18. This.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #16)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 04:33 PM

93. And that makes you anti-abortion if it's coerced or forced on a woman. right? (nt)

 

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #93)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:05 PM

118. Lol.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #93)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 05:46 PM

184. Adding coerced or forced...

makes any action unacceptable. I'm anti-apple pie if it is coerced or forced. Do you have a real point?

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Response to tonedevil (Reply #184)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 06:45 PM

189. Anti-Apple Pie? I challenge you to a duel! Spoons at dawn!

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:56 PM

17. There are some who would disagree...

but the point is really moot.

It's none of my business what someone else does with their own body.

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Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #17)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:57 PM

19. Exactly!

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:58 PM

22. I'm pro-abortion.

I'm glad that this procedure exists.

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Response to David__77 (Reply #22)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:06 PM

34. I'm for the freedom to have an abortion

Speaking as someone who had one before Roe, I have a very personal stake in it. To me, saying I'm pro abortion means I'm in favor of dictating it to other people the same way "pro life" tells women what they can do with their bodies.

Besides, saying I'm pro abortion plays into the hands of the "pro life" crowd.

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #34)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:21 PM

75. I am not interested in allowing the Pro Birth crowd to dictate terms.

Let's not pretend they are 'pro life' either.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #75)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:15 PM

124. I'll call them the pro-forced childbearing crowd.

 

I was pro-birth when I had my son, and I won't put myself in the same category as the pro-forced childbearing crowd.

They are anti-choice. I am pro-choice when it comes to birth and not giving birth.

There were people who asked how I could be "pro-abortion" and still be thrilled seeing my sonograms.

I said, "It's because I consented to childbearing. If you look at it from the point of view of choice, that makes perfect sense."

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #75)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 07:31 AM

154. Well said

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Response to David__77 (Reply #22)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:50 PM

64. Thank you, and exactly. You get it.

Being pro-abortion is no different than being pro-root canal or pro-appendectomy. You're not saying you want to force others to have root canals and appendectomies, just that you support the procedure.

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:07 PM

52. That was always Bill Clinton's argument

And it was a wise one to make

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Response to wryter2000 (Reply #5)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 04:43 PM

178. Or not.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:52 PM

6. Explain

"Pro abortion"

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:53 PM

7. How about PRO WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Or is that too much to ask for?

No woman out there should be forced to give birth to a child she does not want btw!

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Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #7)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:03 PM

49. And pro privacy and pro bodily autonomy

 

And pro privacy and pro bodily autonomy because a government that can prevent your abortion can also make you have one. They have no fucking business in anyone's reproductive choices ever

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Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #7)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 07:35 AM

156. I consider myself Pro-Reproductive Choice & Rights

That includes a woman's and mans rights to access to birth control, healthcare, pre and post natal care, and yes, termination of a pregnancy "abortion" if that is

I am opposed to anybody that tells me or any other man or woman what they can do in their reproductive choices and their body.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:53 PM

8. Would you please explain your position to us.

I am with 3 of your 4 points. I'd like to hear your reasoning. Thanks in advance.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:53 PM

9. wow!

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:54 PM

10. I am pro abortion.

Abortion is a medical procedure, between the woman and her physician.

Abortion is an important medical procedure, I am pro abortion the way I am pro tonsillectomy.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #10)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:55 PM

14. Gah, you beat me to it!

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:54 PM

11. I'm pro-spelling, but that's just me.

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Response to 6000eliot (Reply #11)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:55 PM

15. autocorrect can be an A hole sometimes though.

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Response to irisblue (Reply #15)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:58 PM

21. I know. I've been caught too. Sorry for the snark.

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Response to 6000eliot (Reply #21)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:59 PM

24. No issue at all

autocorrect catches me too many times.

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Response to irisblue (Reply #15)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:19 PM

57. Autocorrect is my worst enema

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Response to unblock (Reply #57)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:33 PM

62. that's the ducking truth.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:54 PM

13. I'm pro-abortion the same way I'm pro-appendectomy or pro-microdiscectomy.

Being pro-healthcare-tactic for people who need healthcare is generally a good position to be in.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:58 PM

20. The correct term is "pro-choice," not "pro-abortion." Nobody here actually likes that

fetuses are aborted. However, the option to have an abortion is a good thing. It's always a difficult situation.

I agree with your message content.

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Response to Oneironaut (Reply #20)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:00 PM

27. Please be careful speaking for others about how they feel about abortion.

It's not always a "difficult situation" and promoting a narrative that it should be doesn't help women.

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Response to Oneironaut (Reply #20)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:57 PM

47. Definately not always

My abortion wasn't the slightest bit difficult.

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Response to Oneironaut (Reply #20)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:48 PM

83. It's not always a difficult situation.

Before I even knew for certain I was pregnant I had already made the decision to abort. No soul searching, no second guessing, no twinges of conscience. When the test came back positive I couldn't make the appointment fast enough. When it was over all I felt was relief.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 12:58 PM

23. We ARE pro education, pro contraception, pro choice and not ashamed to support the right to abort.

 

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:00 PM

26. The termination of a pregnancy is a medical procedure.

When you say things like "We should not be pro abortion" you play into the hands of anti-choice people. They have tried to infuse their own interpretation of religion into a personal medical decision. Should we not be saying that we are "Not pro appendectomy!" too? We are pro choice and if that choice happens to be abortion, then we are pro abortion. Yielding on words, just gives opponents of women's rights that much more power.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:02 PM

28. You don't get to decide the policies favored here.


I understand your point is that with education and contraception abortion shouldn't be that common. However, shit happens. Things happen, like - the birth control pill failed, fetus turns out to not be viable, mom gets condition where she can't carry the baby to term and it's not viable, younger woman couldn't get birth control because parents wouldn't allow it and condom breaks, woman who wasn't sexually active gets drunk and has sex, whether consensual or not. If a woman needs an abortion, she should have the right to have one, and we should support her decision,period the end.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:02 PM

29. I've never met anyone that is pro abortion.

I would think that for anyone to be pro abortion, they would have to be a misanthrope the likes of which most of us would never see, thankfully.

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Response to Intransigent Atheist (Reply #29)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:05 PM

32. Being a fan of routine healthcare procedures that make people's lives better is not misanthropic.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)


Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:06 PM

35. Not that I think this is prevalent but...

Those on the left should not commit political idolatry of abortion dogma like some on the right idolize the firearm and 2nd Amendment dogma.

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Response to Thomas Hurt (Reply #35)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:08 PM

37. ...



I would say more, but...

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Response to Thomas Hurt (Reply #35)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:09 PM

38. .

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:07 PM

36. So you're saying

I shouldn't spend my Saturdays standing outside the clinic, accosting random women and forcing them to go inside?

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:13 PM

39. "Pro-Abortion" is a pernicious myth fueled by anti-choicers

I have NEVER heard anybody refer to themselves as such.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:14 PM

40. Only in the RW's ugly spin, are Liberal/progressives (or anyone for that matter),

PRO-ABORTION.

This just incenses me! So damned tired of RW memes and stereotypes being pushed here.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #40)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:08 PM

53. Yeah

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #40)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:48 PM

84. I'm sorry, who are you speaking for today?

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #84)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:53 PM

86. Staunchly Pro-Choice does not equate to PRO-Abortion (& I speak for millions like myself, thank you)

Your apology is noted, however.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #86)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:59 PM

87. Abortion is a specific choice/procedure that is specifically under attack. I don't waste my time

talking about the availability of condoms when this fight is happening:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/08/abortion-womens-health-outcomes-maternal-mortality/
New Study Shows that States With the Most Anti-Abortion Laws Also Have the Worst Women’s Health
“These policies only work to further place women at a disadvantage.”



THAT is why I'm pro abortion. Because it needs to be defended as a safe and legal option, or it will disappear.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:27 PM

41. I'm pro abortion.

If you need one get one. They're legal and they're important.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #41)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:02 PM

48. Me too

I'm pro abortion for myself, pro choice for everybody else. Two of my kids wouldn't exist without abortion.

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Response to blackdove78 (Reply #48)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:13 PM

56. I have a blood clotting disorder.

If I get pregnant I'm having an abortion. No debate, no apology, I'm not interested in risking my health.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #56)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:13 PM

123. You should absolutely be making that choice and no one else. (nt)

 

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:32 PM

43. what does "pro abortion" mean?

I'm pro abortion in the same way I'm pro birth control, pro MRI, pro aspirin, pro yoga, etc. If a woman wants access to any of those things, there should be no laws standing in her way, nor should she be compelled to consider the opinions of anyone (aside from, in some examples/cases, a medical professional).

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:33 PM

44. I am pro abortion...

 

And can give you a list if you find a time machine. I have another list that should they show up I would be glad to stop their genes from perpetuating.

Other than this, what was your point OP? Besides trying to be obtuse and create arguments where none were before?

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 01:39 PM

45. If a woman wants an abortion, I am pro abortion.

 

I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:05 PM

50. Jesus...

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:05 PM

51. I'm not sure

of what you mean by "pro abortion".

By this do you mean that abortion should no be a sort of contraception afterwards ?

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:09 PM

54. Democrats are NEVER pro-abortion

We are for choice, all choices regarding reproduction. I don't even know what pro-abortion is? For people NOT being able to choose to have a baby when they are pregnant?

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Response to get the red out (Reply #54)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:41 PM

79. When the other side works 24x7x365 to villify, demonize, guilt trip, restrict, ban abortion, etc

you fucking bet I identify as pro-abortion, because it needs to be actively defended if it is to remain a safe legal option for any variety of reasons a woman might choose it.

If they weren't pushing to strip it from society, to outlaw it, then I wouldn't have to be 'pro' anything, and it would just be a thing that people may choose if it fits their circumstance.

Not only that, but most pro-lifers ALSO work to instill abstinence only education, which has about the same failure rate as prayer. They work to restrict contraceptives. No plan B. Work to promulgate this ridiculous social stigma on sex outside the archetype of marriage they personally approve of and nothing else, etc. They actually work to make the need for abortion, to address expanded circumstances, more likely.

Until they back off, I'm pro-abortion.
When the war is over, I'll just be me and that's fine.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:31 PM

61. I'm pro-abortion. It's a medical procedure that saves lives.

Enough of the 'abortion should be rare' talking point.

It's just another way to shame women who have abortions. They want us to be ashamed of making that choice, to feel guilty and to admit we regret it. They want to use our stories as cautionary tales as if we did something wrong.

Fuck that noise. I had an abortion and I'm glad I did, I didn't hesitate or feel a twinge of conscience. Not once.

It's a medical procedure, period. And it's no one else's business.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 02:56 PM

65. NOBODY IS PRO ABORTION

That is just a lie that the Right Wing Christians have turned into a talking point.

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Response to librechik (Reply #65)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:00 PM

67. I'm pro-abortion

Please see my post below yours
I am anything but a right wing christian (I'm a socialist atheist) and I"m not a talking point.

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Response to librechik (Reply #65)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:02 PM

68. I am.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:00 PM

66. I'm pro-abortion

I'm a medical professional. If a woman wants an abortion, she has every right to receive one YES RIGHT UP UNTIL THE PRECIOUS SECONDS BEFORE BIRTH because that never happens and YES EVEN IF ITS BECAUSE THE BABY IS ONE GENDER AND NOT THE OTHER because that really isn't an issue anyways.

I am pro abortion. I will always be pro-abortion. I'm also pro-education (not everyone has the same ability or desire to learn, retain knowledge, or have abstract thought), and pro-contraception (no method of birth control is 100% effective), and pro-prevention (which would do nothing to prevent pregnancy via rape or birth control failure). But more than that, I'm pro-abortion.

And I am pro-choice. You have the choice to not have an abortion if you don't want one.

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Response to Heddi (Reply #66)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:03 PM

70. THIS RIGHT HERE!

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Response to Heddi (Reply #66)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 07:09 PM

143. Thank you!

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:03 PM

69. I am pro choice, but more than that I believe having privacy is an issue of respect.

No one needs to tell anyone she needs/wants an abortion other than the healthcare provider she seeks the service from. Whomever else she might choose to involve in the matter is her choice as well.

It is no one else's business and it should NOT be a topic of discussion. It is a private and personal matter. End of story.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:04 PM

71. frankly i don't give a damn but i wont go namby pamby talk around the issue..fuck the fetus fetish

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:05 PM

72. I'm pro-abortion.

Unabashedly so.

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Response to johnp3907 (Reply #72)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:07 PM

99. I'll bet you're not pro-abortion that is coerced or required.

 

So the term "pro-choice" would likely be more accurate.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #99)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:21 PM

109. I'm pro-abortion.

If I was pro-coerced or pro-forced abortion I would use those terms. But I'm not.

I am proudly pro-abortion.

The definition of pro:

pro: preposition & adverb

1. in favor of.


I am in favor of abortion so I'm pro-abortion. It's an accurate term.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #99)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:22 PM

110. If it's banned, there's no opportunity for choice. If it's not available, you can't choose it.

Here in the PacNW there are many hospitals that simply won't offer it anymore. What then, of choice?

Sorry, not on the menu, so to speak.

11 of 12 regional hospitals here in Seattle are now operating under the ownership of, or joint operating agreement with the catholic church, and thus catholic medical ethics rules. The US wing of the RCC is buying up entire hospitals and entire billing systems, and entire insurance systems. It's an end-run on banning it.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/faith-healers/Content?oid=16050396


It is not enough to say 'I am pro choice' when the raw availability of the option is no longer an option to choose.

They are in it to win it, and we need to be as well.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #110)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:27 PM

112. Yep. Pro-choice is too wishy washy for me.

I understand why people don't want to use the term pro-abortion and why the party will never use it - but I'm not afraid to wear it proudly.

Abortion isn't a bad word and it's time to stop treating it like it's a Bad Thing. And it's long past time to stop pretending that women who have abortions did something wrong.

I support as many abortions as women need, I don't use weasel words like 'rare'. It should be paid for by insurance and easily accessible at clinics, doctors' offices and hospitals. It shouldn't be viewed any differently than any other medical procedure.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #112)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:55 PM

115. I wear it proudly because it puts her consent front and center - her, not the procedure

 

Her CHOICE is the what is important in any and all childbearing decisions and procedures.

It covers it all.

Just pro (the choice of the woman.)

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #115)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:06 PM

119. I'm pro-life saving medical procedures and that includes abortion.

No one says they're pro-choice when it comes to mastectomies, appendectomies or any other surgical procedure. How is abortion different?

The right spent decades shaming women for choosing to terminate their pregnancies and turning the word abortion into a lightning rod that no one wants to touch. I refuse to play their game. I reject the stigma.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #119)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:11 PM

121. Life-saving would involve consent.

 

When I argue with anti-choicers, I ask them if forced childbearing is a positive thing, because that is what the alternative to choice is.

They have the mindset that childbearing is the opposite morally of abortion, because consent is not a part of the discussion - but forced childbearing is not in any way more moral than consentual abortion.

The shame should be on anyone who reduces childbearing to something forced on a woman. The absence of consent is what turns any procedure into an abomination.

That is why I call myself pro-choice, because that is what is most important in any discussion of any reproductive procedure.

I think that the Duggars have thrown morality out the window, but I will respect choice.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #121)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:22 PM

132. Which is why I don't use the term pro-forced abortion to describe my support for the procedure.

I just posted the definition of pro as an adverb, it means 'in favor of' something. So when we say we're pro-abortion that means were in favor of it. It doesn't mean we want to force someone to have an abortion.

I'm not pro-forced birth or pro-forced abortion, and I'm not anti-abortion, I'm pro-abortion.

I'm also pro-birth control and pro-sex education. If I said that out loud no one would think I meant that people should be forced to use birth control and learn about sex education. Abortion is no different.

I'm also pro-sex, pro-vegetarianism, pro-marijuana, and pro-whatever-adults-want-to-do as long as everyone consents. That doesn't mean I want to force others to have sex, give up meat or smoke pot.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #132)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 08:31 AM

158. Political terms carry their own meaning, and that can be different from general meanings.

 

The political term "pro-choice," as we all know, applies to abortion legislation, not to pizza toppings. It is used because "pro-abortion" isn't accurate in the political definition. "Pro-choice" doesn't promote one option over another, as pro-abortion would lead someone to believe you favor that option in a political discussion. It is a reflection of what the medical community has stated is the best practice for public health and safety, and the medical community code of ethics forbids them from favoring one medically appropriate option over another to a patient who has a choice to make. The informed patient is the one who does the favoring.

"Pro-life" in a political discussion means, as we all know, that you oppose legal access to abortion, not that you prefer a particular brand of cereal. I will never say I am "pro-life" and "pro-choice" as many pro-choice people do, because that involves mixing non political phrases with political labels, no matter what the adverb implies means in other contexts.

A writer I know said that "because I have a baby, I always have come down on the side of "life." Misusing that term erases "choice" or "consent" from the discussion as a valid concept. I told him that because I have given birth, I will always support childbirth by choice, rather than forced childbirth. I took the argument out of the "dead baby vs live baby" back and forth, by simply bringing it back to "willing" or "forced" view of childbearing - without focusing on what is "best" for her.

The opposite of "choice" is "forced" - the opposite of abortion is childbirth. When you make the discussion about the options, rather than about the choice, the true crux of the argument - the woman's will - is bypassed.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #158)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 05:59 PM

185. Please stop telling me I can't be pro-abortion because you think it means something it doesn't

And words mean things, pro means: in favor of.

So when I and other people say we are pro-abortion we mean we are in favor of the procedure.

I don't give a pink patootie what rhetoric anti-abortion people use, I'm not going to run from the word abortion because it's been demonized.

I. Am. Pro-abortion.

It does not mean pro-forced abortion. If I wanted to say I was pro-forced abortion I would use those words.

One more time:


Pro: in favor of

Pro-abortion: in favor of abortion



I am pro-abortion.


If you don't like the term don't use it, but please don't tell me I shouldn't because you don't like it.

Thanks.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #185)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 06:32 PM

187. I'm not telling you any such thing.

 

I'm just explaining why this isn't used in the political world, and why someone who is assuming that you are using the term in a political sense would think you mean something else.

No one is censoring you....

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #187)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 06:46 PM

190. That's an entirely different proposition than this thread started with.

When questioned, I'll still politically identify as pro-abortion. Nobody's talking about the DNC party platform position statements here.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:20 PM

74. You're not the boss of me.

Abortion is fine. Null implications.

I am equally pro education, pro contraception, pro family planning (including IVF, AI) and pro choice, including pro abortion.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:34 PM

77. How about pro reproductive healthcare (which includes abortion)

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:35 PM

78. I am pro- It's none of your business if it's not your body.

I don't tell you to lay off the carbs or I'll disapprove of your cardiac bypasses. I don't get a judgement in anyone else's surgical or bodily decisions (except when that person specifically and legally outsourced the decision to me, such as the medical POAs I hold/have held.) It's not my business to doubt other people's bodily autonomy, but it is my business to vehemently oppose those who think they do have a right to determine other people's autonomy.

I don't care what your specific decisions are for your body. You get to make them, and you don't need to report them to anyone. But in having that privacy, you have the responsibility to defend that privacy for everyone else.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 03:44 PM

80. Flame bait. I see the OP has disappeared to let us fight amongst ourselves.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #80)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 04:39 PM

95. Yep. n/t

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 04:18 PM

89. Only the right wing uses that term, and

it has no place on DU.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 04:30 PM

90. Um...pro-choice is anti-abortion when a woman doesn't consent.(nt)

 

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 04:37 PM

94. I'm pro

whatever a person wants as long as its not harming me or anyone else for that matter
I figure its none of my fucking business

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Response to madokie (Reply #94)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:16 PM

106. +1

n/t

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:11 PM

101. absolutely pro choice - huge mistake in allowing the R's to label us as pro-abotion

they should have been challenged every time they uttered those words

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:14 PM

103. Pro-abortion is a less precise term than pro-choice

Choice indicates that it is entirely the decision of each individual woman what she does with her body.

This is why I don't call the ones who call themselves "pro-life" by that name, they are anti-choice, against letting a woman make her own choices and they are only "pro" fetal life, with zero care for the lives of women.

Of course, once that fetus takes a breath outside the womb, they don't care at all what happens to it.

Now, OP, if you personally believe that abortion is wrong, then don't have one. It is not your job or my job to decide for anyone but ourselves.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #103)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:26 PM

111. Anti-Choice, or Pro-Birth.

Then it's 'bootstraps for you, kid, quit mooching off the gubmint'.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #103)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 07:22 PM

146. I call them pro-forced-birthers

Which I feel is more descriptive.

I see nothing wrong with the term or being pro-abortion. Abortion is a medical procedure and just like virtually all other medical procedures (with the possible exception of executions) are voluntary.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:17 PM

107. What?

You wanted a long thread? Attention?

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:18 PM

108. and pro support

for born children.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:35 PM

113. I don't care what it's called as long as the gov't quits telling women what the hell to do with

their body. My body my choice. Pro-abortion is just fine to me

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 05:48 PM

114. With over 600,000 reported abortions a year, I think 'pro-abortion' covers it.

You can be for it, or against it, easy enough.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:06 PM

120. Abortion is a medical procedure. I'm pro necessary and needed medical procedures.

So, yeah, you can call me pro-abortion. If a woman wants an abortion, then she needs that medical procedure.

I'm also pro-birth control for men and women. Pro-sex education. Pro-education (period). Pro-living wage. Pro-affordable housing. Pro-affordable child care. Pro-income equality. Pro-equality in job hiring. Pro- equality and fairness in the justice system. Pro-harassment free work places.

For those who haven't met anyone pro-abortion...

Hi, my name is Solly Mack. Nice to meet you.

You can cross that off your bucket list now.

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Response to Solly Mack (Reply #120)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:18 PM

127. One just told me I'm not pro-abortion.

I guess I'm a man who got 'splained to!

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Response to johnp3907 (Reply #127)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:29 PM

135. You're a good ally, johnp3907. You get it.

I wish there were more like you.

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Response to johnp3907 (Reply #127)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:47 PM

139. I'm a female and I don't know what you mean by "One"...did you mean Someone just told you?

People react negatively to the word abortion because they were either taught by their religion it was wrong, or maybe their parents told them it was wrong. Or whatever.

But it's a medical procedure and I see no reason to pretend it is anything else. People bring their own baggage to the word - not the other way around. That's not the case with all words, of course.

It's a medical procedure. People need to stop turning it into anything else.

If people want to take the negativity out of the word - a negativity people put into the word to begin with - they might try thinking of it as medical science - because, well, it is.

But then some people fear the word science, so...

Yes, I know women struggle with the decision - some do, anyway. But that's their emotional journey and can't be said to be true of all women. A look at why some women are made to feel negative/bad about the medical procedure would better serve to remove the negative connotation than to pretend there is anything wrong with the medical procedure itself.

I can only speak for myself.



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Response to Solly Mack (Reply #139)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 07:02 PM

140. I meant one of the people posting on this thread.

I feel the same--it's a medical procedure and we shouldn't demonize it.

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Response to johnp3907 (Reply #140)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 07:05 PM

142. Thank you. Exactly. We shouldn't demonize it.

It serves no purpose other than to put more of a burden on a woman. To shame her.

Thank you!!!

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Response to Solly Mack (Reply #139)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 10:53 AM

163. Plenty of people who are supposedly on our side

still believe that abortion is inherently A Bad Thing. You never hear anyone insist they should not be called "pro-whatever" about any other issue. Can you just imagine anyone saying, "Don't say I'm pro-same sex marriage. That implies I'm in favor of it in every circumstance. Well, I'm not in favor of forcing people to marry someone of the same sex, therefore I'm no pro-same sex marriage. I'm pro-choice about same sex marriage." No, this bullshit only happens when talking about abortion.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #163)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 11:09 AM

165. Yep

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Response to Solly Mack (Reply #120)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:32 PM

136. Hello Solly Mack.

I too am pro-abortion, pro-birth control for men and women. Pro-sex education. Pro-education (period). Pro-living wage. Pro-affordable housing. Pro-affordable child care. Pro-income equality. Pro-equality in job hiring. Pro- equality and fairness in the justice system. Pro-harassment free work places.

Yes on everything you said.

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Response to beam me up scottie (Reply #136)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 07:03 PM

141. Hello to you Bmus!

I simply can't pretend abortion is a reason to speak in hushed tones.

Like it's some dirty secret to ashamed of.

And the only reason it is expected to be done is to make "pro-lifers" feel better - and all it does is play into their thinking that abortion is wrong.

If there is no shame, then act like it.

If you play to "pro-lifers" (and everyone please note the quotes) then they come away thinking that you secretly think it wrong.

I've had "pro-lifers" say as much to me. That liberals don't like saying pro-abortion because they know it's wrong, so they say pro-choice instead. That we wouldn't say pro-abortion because we want to live in denial about what it really is.

And they had such smug looks on their faces when they told me that.

I set them straight in short order.

Abortion is medical procedure and the only baggage it comes with is the baggage people bring into it.

..........

No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion - that strips choice/options/autonomy from women as well. For those thinking it clever to equate being pro medical procedure with being forced-abortion. Pro and forced do not mean the same.


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Response to Solly Mack (Reply #141)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 07:36 PM

148. Exactly! It's time to stop letting them demonize abortion.

I argue frequently with pro-forced birthers and they're rabidly puritanical. They still think sex is sinful and that women should be forced to give birth as a consequence.

They literally view pregnancy and childbirth as an appropriate punishment for enjoying sex. I mean think about how horrific that is.

You can't reason with people like that, they can't be reached, but we can try to counter their propaganda.

Taking away the stigma associated with abortion is one step in the right direction.

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Response to Solly Mack (Reply #120)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 07:03 AM

152. You have established the essential differences between the Parties. We are "pro"; Republicans are

 

"anti."

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #152)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 12:02 PM

170. Thank you.

Full disclosure, though - I am anti-republican.

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Response to Solly Mack (Reply #170)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 12:08 PM

171. Pro-Democrat!

 

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #171)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 12:11 PM

172. And back to pro I go.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:12 PM

122. Nobody is "pro-abortion". Pro-CHOICE means you can chose to have an abortion, or not.

Nice try, but misconstruing the FACTS is easy to spot here on DU, it's been used so many times to no avail.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:18 PM

128. Who's pro-abortion?

I've met some of the most ardent pro-choicer's imaginable and not one of them is pro-abortion.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:19 PM

129. Where did the OP go? Off to start a fight someplace else?

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Response to Hekate (Reply #129)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:20 PM

130. Hit & Run

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 06:36 PM

138. I don't approve of abortion, but I accept it when others may need it.

I believe in free will and if we are judged it will be as individuals not as a country or government.

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Response to pwb (Reply #138)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 07:01 AM

151. It is the law. There is nothing for you to "accept" or reject.

 

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Response to pwb (Reply #138)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 11:12 AM

166. I approve, and I refuse to guilt trip other people by joining in to beat that drum of 'I don't appro

ve of abortion BUT' or 'I'm personally against abortion BUT', etc,

Fomenting the idea that there is a negative moral implication to abortion is, at best, unhelpful. Frankly, I think it's inhumane to treat people like that.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Tue Aug 1, 2017, 07:17 PM

145. You are using right wing framing, here.

Stop.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 06:25 AM

149. I'm pro abortion.

There is nothing wrong with it. I'm also pro heart surgery,

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #149)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 11:17 AM

167. This is an example of what prompted the OP, I'm pretty sure.

Some of us want to acknowledge the moral complexity of dealing with two lives. I'm pro choice all the way, but we impinge on other people's choice when we insist that "there's nothing wrong with it." We should just leave it that it can be a difficult decision, but that women have to make it for themselves.

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #167)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 04:10 PM

173. If you don't want heart surgery that's your business.

I reject your assumption that we are dealing with two lives.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #173)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 08:29 PM

193. Well, you've got to agree that it's a debatable point. Right?

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #193)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 08:48 PM

195. Sure, but I am in no way compelling you to have an abortion.

On the other hand you seem to find it unacceptable that I am in favor of abortions just as I am in favor of heart surgery. You are the one rejecting the validity of the "pro abortion" position.

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #167)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 04:29 PM

175. "We impinge on other people's choice

when we insist that there's nothing wrong with it."

Please explain how, exactly, that impinges on anyone's choice.

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #167)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 04:42 PM

177. No moral complexity about it for me at all.

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Response to 50 Shades Of Blue (Reply #177)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 08:31 PM

194. Yeah, but there is for a lot of people. That was the OP's point. nt

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Response to LAS14 (Reply #194)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 09:35 PM

196. And for plenty of people, there isn't.

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Response to Voltaire2 (Reply #149)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 06:02 PM

186. Exactly. What is so difficult about that?

I'm pro-contraception too.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 07:00 AM

150. I AM PRO ROE v. WADE, the law of the land since 1973!! People need to finally STHU about it!! DU,

 

included!

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 07:26 AM

153. Who f*ck is pro-abortion? WTF???

This post is clearly bait...

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 07:36 AM

157. This Is What I Call It

Mind your own damn business! That's what I've named it. Don't dictate to me or any other woman what we can and can not do w/our bodies.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 10:27 AM

161. Nor should we be pro-refractive eye surgery.

No more and no less than we should be pro-refractive eye surgery.

(anyone could of course, add the irrelevance and absurdity of coerced refractive eye surgery, yet that particular is still both irrelevant and absurd).

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 04:41 PM

176. Speak for yourself! I am pro abortion.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 04:44 PM

179. Somebody only listens to RW framing & doesn't know what "choice" means. Is it you Soxfan58?

* ∞

Please prove your point by showing us all the mandatory abortion candidates.

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 04:46 PM

180. Uhm, who is we and what do you mean?

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 05:37 PM

182. pro-abortion is a term repukes use

because they're all for freedom unless it involves women making their own choices

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 06:35 PM

188. Flame Baiting BULLSHIT

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Response to tenderfoot (Reply #188)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 06:48 PM

191. lol

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Response to Soxfan58 (Original post)

Wed Aug 2, 2017, 09:38 PM

197. Correct. And that's why we're Pro-Choice.

One of those choices is abortion.

The rest are not.

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