We should not be pro abortion!

[Soxfan58]

We should be pro education, pro contriception, and pro choice.

[Weekend Warrior]

1. Who is "pro abortion"? nt.

[Warpy]

55. It's like being pro gallbladder surgery

Yes, it can save your life if you need it, but nobody really wants to go through it.

[Weekend Warrior]

58. Thank you for the laugh. nt.

[SJMULE]

131. Well if you ask any Christian Conservative R- winger

Women and girls are having abortions all the time because they need to go on vacation, go out on a date or out drinking, to fit in their bikini,or they dont want to sell their two seat sports car.....

[still_one]

133. That is an important distinction. Pro-choice, is NOT pro abortion. That is what choice is all

about

[MaryLouisaWillis]

155. Ummm yeah

that seems rather obvious.

[demmiblue]

2. Oh, good lawd!

[Atman]

3. I've never met anyone who is "pro abortion."

That's ridiculous.

[loyalsister]

25. I am

I trust that a woman who thinks abortion is her best option is making a valid decision, maybe even a good decision if she decides to have an abortion. I support that without condition because I am pro-whatever decision she wants to make about her bodily investment in pregnency.

[PJMcK]

33. Understood

Yet I interpret your view as "pro-choice" since you're trusting the pregnant woman to know what is best for her circumstances.

Regardless, I think we're in complete agreement concerning who has the right to make personal decisions.

[loyalsister]

59. Exactly

I am pro apendectomies, pro-heart bypasses, pro elective surgeries that fix something that do not present a medical risk or problem. For example, cosmetic surgery, etc.
I think some elective cosmetic surgeries ultimately enable the social rejection of people who do not reach an ideal standard of appearance, and I have a personal problem with perpetuating those ideals. Thus, I find the beauty culture pressure that people (most often women) are confronted with offensive.

I would love to see a shift in a direction that would not encourage that pressure. But, I also see it as a valid personal choice that may offer comfort.

Given my personal opposition to the messages sent by widespread use of surgical procedures to "improve" appearance, some might interpret my position as anti-cosmetic surgery. I have known people who passionately view those decisions with judgement, and I don't think that is fair. To not be generally pro-elective cosmetic surgery is to enable a rigid point of view that supports social pressures in the alternate direction.

In some instances it is necessary to take a side.

I admit to the validity of any position but I consider my pro abortion and pro-cosmetic surgery because I believe those options are valid and, in that sense, as good and equally moral as the alternative.

[ehrnst]

100. You are supportive of them in the context of consent.

That is to say that you would not be supportive of any procedure not consented to by a competent adult.

[loyalsister]

104. And yet

I support the existence of the procedure. In the case of abortion, I am adamently supportive because there are forces that want to see the elimination of the procedure itself.

[Ninsianna]

42. How is that "pro-abortion"? That's a bit like being pro-appendectomy or

some other such thing.

I trust that a woman is capable of choosing her medical procedures with the advice of her physician and anyone else she deems worthy of weighing in on her decision.

The procedure itself is a whole other thing, and it's weird to be pro or anti a medical procedure in a general sense.

[loyalsister]

60. I am in favor of the existance of the procedure

Pro abortion.

[beam me up scottie]

63. I agree with you. It's not a difficult concept.

[Ninsianna]

76. Um, that doesn't make sense.

Why would the existence of a medical procedure that's been around since the beginning of history require anyone to be in favor of it?

This whole "pro-abortion" thing is an emotional manipulation by anti-choice zealots (many of whom are pro-choosing to have an abortion when it's their own pregnancy or someone that they love).

Are you in favor of the existence of other kind of horrific but medically necessary/recommended procedures? Amputation? Mastectomy? etc.

I'm just frustrated any time we give even so much as a nanometer to the hateful idiots who make it their life's work to harass, terrorize and abuse women and doctors seeking to make medical decisions about what's in the best interest of their own (or their patient's) bodies.

Conceding this preposterous position that we need to be in favor of established medical procedures or against it, is just irritating.

I totally agree with you, I'm very much in favor of women choosing what's best for them. I'm in favor of pregnancy by choice, delivery by choice, and motherhood by choice, and the existence of all those things.

I'm also not pro-abortion, since that's a case when something has gone wrong. Either maldevelopment of a wanted pregnancy, or a pregnancy happened when it was not desired and now a woman/girl has to go through the onerous task of seeking out and getting a procedure that so many make into something more than the regular medical care it is.

[AtheistCrusader]

81. If they work day and night to restrict or ban mastectomy, I will become pro-mastectomy.

Always with the wider understanding that it is FOR people who CHOOSE it on informed consent based on their circumstances.

But yes, I'm pro-abortion because they are chipping away at it, every fucking day.

this happened 5h ago.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/judge-rejects-abortion-law-putting-minors-through-trial-like-hearing/ar-AApfz9E


Look at what they are doing. LOOK. Look at the absolute shit they want to put people through.

Hell yes I'm pro-abortion.

[beam me up scottie]

85. Thank you!

Are you in favor of the existence of other kind of horrific but medically necessary/recommended procedures? Amputation? Mastectomy? etc.

What the hell does that even mean?

Of course I'm pro-mastectomy and pro-amputation.

Well said.

[Act_of_Reparation]

88. +100. "Pro-choice" is a lukewarm-bordering-cowardly term.

People use it because they are trying to distance themselves from what abortion necessarily entails.

[MountCleaners]

126. I agree

I never liked the term - it smacks of puritanism and pearl-clutching. I am female and I say that I support abortion rights.

[Ms. Toad]

137. Nonsense. I use it because it is exactly what I mean.

Women have the right to choose whether, and when, to bear children.

A pregnant woman has at least two options to choose from; abortion is only one of them.The minute I become pro-abortion, rather than choice, I am puting my finger on a scale it has no business being on. That makes me no better than the "pro-life" advocates who put their finger on the other side of the scale.

[Act_of_Reparation]

160. So you think the term "pro-abortion" implies removal of patient choice.

That's fascinating, given that kind of association is almost never applied to other advocacy groups. In almost every conceivable case, being "pro-" anything necessarily implies choice. It is assumed that if pot is legalized, those who do not want to smoke pot will choose not to. Pro-feminists assume those who do not wish to identify as feminists will choose not to. It is assumed that if pornography remains available for public consumption, those who want nothing to do with it will choose not to buy it.

And to be perfectly honest, choice isn't the issue. The anti-abortionists aren't looking to rob people of choice generally, but to take away a particular choice they believe is immoral. The choice argument is therefore peripheral, and doesn't address their primary criticisms. Arguing that abortion is perfectly moral and should be normalized, however, addresses the anti-abortionists head-on.

[Ms. Toad]

162. So pro-life implies choice?

Who knew?

But seriously, that is the context for this discussion.

And choice is very much the issue, because those on the other side want to remove the right to choose if and when to bear children.

Frankly, many of the people who identify themselves as pro-abortion, including people on DU, really do advocate against choice, when the choice made differs with theirs (especially when it involves having more than a few children or giving birth and then giving the child up for adoption, as two specific examples that come up frequently.

Pro means advocating for whatever follows. I am advocating for women to be able to make the best choice for themselves. I am not advocating for them to choose either life, or abortion. That is why pro-choice is the appropriate term - it is none of my business which choice they make. It is my business to help ensure they have the right to choose.

[Act_of_Reparation]

168. They would say yes.

The available choices are absurdly limited -- have children or abstain from sex -- but say they are "anti-choice" and that is exactly how they would respond.

Their position is that abortion is immoral, that it is a deplorable act, that it is murder. The choice argument patently fails to address that. Through omission it concedes the morality issue to the right. That may leave abortion legal, but it also leaves the doors wide open for shaming women who have gotten abortions or who are considering getting the procedure.

Frankly, many of the people who identify themselves as pro-abortion, including people on DU, really do advocate against choice, when the choice made differs with theirs (especially when it involves having more than a few children or giving birth and then giving the child up for adoption, as two specific examples that come up frequently.

I don't find anecdotes particularly compelling. If I looked hard enough, I'm sure I could find a couple of secular anti-abortionists. That doesn't mean secular anti-abortionists are anything to be concerned about.

[Ms. Toad]

183. I have not met a single pro-life person who would describe themselves as pro-choice.

The only acceptable choice is life - and they are very clear about that. It is part of the title they choose for themselves, and their entire focus.

I'm just reporting what I have experienced in conversations on DU wiht people that runs counter to your assertion pro-abortion really implies advocating for choice. You can choose to ignore it, or not. I am explaining why I find it offensive to be told that anything short of pro-abortion is "a lukewarm-bordering-cowardly term," or that I am using it "because {I am} trying to distance {myself} from what abortion necessarily entails."

You are free to call yourself whatever you want. But it is offensive for you to cast aspersions on me for making a different choice. That was my point. Many of us who call ourselves pro-choice are making an affirmative statement about empowering all women to make whatever choices are appropriate for themselves, even if is is a choice with which we don't agree.

[Mariana]

174. Frankly, many of the people who identify themselves...

That is a crock of shit. Very, very few who identify as pro-abortion advocate against choice. It is true that many criticize other people's choices that they consider foolish. That is NOT advocating against choice and it is extremely dishonest to claim that it is. Criticizing a particular choice is not the same as denying someone the right to make that choice.

[Ms. Toad]

181. Ask the people against whom such criticism is directed if there is a meaningful difference.

When people who self-identify as pro-abortion consistently criticize choices other than abortion (as some I have encountered here - and elsewhere - do), that is not supporting choice. If there is only one acceptable choice (terminating pregnancy), being pro-abortion does not imply empowering women to make whatever choice is appropriate for their particular circumstances. It is not your business to judge whether you find their choice is foolish or not - and I have encountered too many people who identify as pro-abortion who simultaneously cruticize women who choose to continue a pregnancy - but not those who choose to terminate it - to believe there is an accidental correlation.

I am not saying that people who are pro-abortion use the same tactics as people who are pro-life, or pose anywhere near the threat the pro-life people do. I am not saying you have to call
yourself pro-life. I am explaining why pro-abortion, in my experience, is NOT the same as advocating that all women be empowered and able to make whatever choice is right for them. I.e. it is NOT pro-choice. It is far too frequently pro-choice-as-long-as-you-choose-the-path-I-deem-not-foolish.

I am pro-choice, and not because (as the post I responded to alleged) I am "lukewarm-bordering-cowardly" and "trying to distance {myself} from what abortion necessarily entails." You are perfectly free to call yourself pro-abortion, but don't cast aspersions on others who call themselves pro-choice because we really are deeply committed to empowering women to make whatever the appropriate choice is for them.

[AtheistCrusader]

164. There is no similarity between the two positions.

'Pro Abortion' means keeping it legal and available, and for many of us, working to eliminate the bullshit social stigma that comes with it (which you can even hear in this thread with people mewling over 'a hard decision', when for many it is not, and it need not be for anyone.)

'Pro Life' or anti-abortion seeks to remove a choice from others.

It would be 'equal' if the 'pro abortion' position was to pressure people into having an abortion, or mandating it under XYZ circumstances. Something we don't do.

Making sure something is available as a choice, is not the 180 degree opposite thing as removing it as a choice. Mandating it would be 180 degrees opposite from banning it, but nobody is advocating to mandate it.

[Ms. Toad]

169. You are obviously not encountering the same pro-abortion people I have,

Including on DU, who are actively advocating for taking choice away, and/or shaming women who choose to have several children- or to bear a child and give it up for adoption.

The tactics of at least significant portion of people who identify themselves as pro-abortion may not be as extreme as those who identify as pro-abortion - but their position is every bit as much advocating for a specific choice (abortion) rather than for every woman to be able to make the choice that is right for her.

It is none of my business if a woman who has 5 children wants a 6th. It is her right to make that choice. Just as it was my mother's right to choose to seek an abortion for what would have been her 6th child (4 by adoption). There are DU pro-abortion members who would have condemned the former for her choice just as surely as pro-life advocates would condemn my mother. Neither is appropriate - it is none of our business. Our business is ensuring the right of all women to make either choice. Hence pro-choice. It is not a word chosen not to offend; it is literally what I mean.

[Voltaire2]

199. I don't think there are a lot of people advocating compulsory abortions.

[Ninsianna]

144. I'm just saying that focusing on the procedure itself, when that's what they're

using to club us with is not helpful.

It cedes ground to them.

They're not chipping away at abortion, they're chipping away at autonomy, basic human rights, a woman's ownership of her own body, a doctor's duty and ability to treat her patient.

All because they're pointing to the procedure itself and what it looks like. Take some gory pictures of knee surgery (or pregnancy for that matter) and people will be grossed out.

I'm tired of how they get to ignore what they're actually doing because we get distracted by having to defend the "icky sounding procedure".

I'm looking at what they're doing, and I understand the actual shit they want to put people through, and I'm saying don't concede ANY ground to them.

Don't let them make it about the procedure, that's what they want. What they're doing is more vile than that it, it's the the concession that women are not worthy of the basic human rights that we don't violate on the worst criminal, AFTER they've been executed, even that cadaver has more rights than these terrorists are grant a living woman.

It's not about the mastectomy or the D&C, it's about the fact that women are not considered human beings. Don't let them have a nanometer on THAT front, it doesn't even go into what the procedure is, it should stop at the question of autonomy that they keep insisting that girls and women do not have the basic right to.

So hell yes, be Pro-Autonomy, pro-choice, pro-bodily integrity, pro-human rights don't even get to the point where you need to specify which procedures we need to be thankful for! That's too much concession.

[loyalsister]

82. Maybe because people want it to be illegal?

If someone is pro legal abortion they are pro abortion, unless they think it is reasonable to have an opinion on whether that is the choice someone makes.

[Ninsianna]

147. They also want to make a great many things illegal, so conceding that much ground to

them is unacceptable.

They want to make contraception illegal as well. Why do we need to concede all these things?

Being pro-choice is not being "pro-abortion". That's the terminology they use to demonize us, and attack us. Do we really care that much WHAT procedure or medication they wish to decide to make illegal, or are we about destroying the basis of their argument: that women are not human beings worthy of basic human rights?

I'm saying do not give them the ground at all. I don't care what these terrorists want to be illegal, since that's a huge list, from comprehensive sex education, to effective contraception to affordable care.

These are not reasonable people, reject the basis of their argument, that they have the right to violate the basic human rights of women for whatever reason or fairy tale they concoct.

It isn't about a D&C or an abortifacient, or contraceptive, or whatever it is they wish to attack on, it's about reject as a whole that it's even up for debate that a woman has basic rights to her bodily integrity, to autonomy or to access to medical care, no matter what that specific care is.

I'm tired of them spelling out all the positions and the terminology, when while pretending they're not anti-life, anti-choice, and not terribly pro-fetus, pro-pregnancy or even anti-abortion, since their policies do not in anyway reduce abortion.

The way we do that is to make every pregnancy a WANTED one, and to address all the reasons that make abortion a painful decision for women (the health reasons, the job reasons, the financial reasons etc. etc. etc.)

It should be no more anyone's business than any other medical procedure, be it elective or emergent.

[Atman]

46. That is not "pro abortion."

That is pro-choice. That is being an informed adult who understands the incredible decision a woman faces when placed in this situation. But to say you're "pro abortion" isn't right. I'm not "pro liver transplant," I don't go around telling people they should replace their vital organs. But I understand that sometimes people are faced with difficult choices and difficult medical and personal situations, and I believe they should be able to make those decisions without interference from bible-thumping government officials. That's much different than being "pro abortion."

In contrast, I'm pro-food, pro-education, pro-science...

[loyalsister]

73. It goes beyond that

Not only do I support the choice, I am also fan of the procedure itself as an available option. Pro-abortion.

[loyalsister]

97. It is pro abortion to favor the legality

It means I am not only in favor of a right to make the choice. I am in favor of the possibility to make the choice, which is only possible if I am in favor of the procedure itself.

[ehrnst]

91. Which would make you anti-abortion is it's coerced or forced.

It's more accurate to say that you are pro-choice.

[ehrnst]

92. I think that divorce should be legal, but that doesn't make me "pro-divorce"

Any more than me being opposed to arranged marriages makes me "anti-marriage."

[AtheistCrusader]

105. If conservatives were working to constrain and disallow divorce, you might classify yourself that

way.

Consider a scenario where waiting periods and counseling, and bans on divorce after X period of time, were codified in state law by conservatives.

You might take a 'pro-divorce' activist stance after all, rather than being 'pro-choice on marriage'.


There's a lot more to family planning than simply abortion, and to say 'I'm Pro-Choice' doesn't explicitly underline what I am willing to support. I might be just pro comprehensive sex-ed, or pro contraceptives, etc.


I happily identify as Pro Abortion because I am specifically standing up in support of this specific procedure to ensure it is legal and accessible. There are many aspects of family planning that are under attack, but Abortion bears the brunt of their concentrated efforts.

[ehrnst]

116. I would classify myself being supportive of consent and choice in any decision.

I would be opposed to obstacles to someone choosing what they, as a competent adult, would choose.

That would cover it all.

(However, I will point out the difference in the comparison to waiting periods in a medical procedure that is time restricted to waiting periods in another situation. Many who are anti-choice will gloss over the the very real onerous conditions that waiting periods on abortion create in the ability of a woman to get a timely abortion. Waiting periods for gun purchases do not create those medical hazards, and would indeed create a "cooling off period" in instances of a rage purchase, with no negative consequences for the purchaser.)

[Voltaire2]

198. it makes you anti arranged marriage.

I'm pro divorce too. I'm enthusiastically in favor of allowing people to terminate marriage contracts as easily as the enter into them, without any stigma.

[loyalsister]

96. How exactly?

Opposing medical coercion does not mean I am not PRO (as in- in favor of) the medical procedure of abortion as an available option.

[ehrnst]

98. I didn't say it did.

You are anti-abortion when it is COERCED, or required of a woman.

You certainly aren't pro-coerced or required abortion, are you?

This addresses the circumstances surrounding abortion, which are indeed an issue.

I am pro-marriage, but not when it is arranged. The term "pro" does have qualifiers.

That is why the term "pro-choice" was determined to be more accurate when describing the political position concerning abortion (or any medical procedure, really. No one is pro-unneccesary or uninformed medical procedures.)

Is that clearer?

[loyalsister]

102. I don't understand how you make that leap

I am not pro-forcing a person to have a medical procedure. But I am certainly pro - an opportunity to have surgical procedures. An opportunity to make a choice is not the equivilant of an imposition of a choice.

[ehrnst]

117. Any medical procedure or condition imposed without consent - be it forced childbearing or abortion

is not a positive situation. Consent withheld converts lovemaking to rape, for instance. The removal of consent from marriage converts it to an abuse. Being against rape does not make one anti-sex, and vice verca. Consent is the only constant that one should advocate in any of those. And that's what I think you actually advocate.

A procedure does not exist until it is performed - it is a concept prior to being performed, and consent is an integral part of performing a procedure.

Is that clearer?

[loyalsister]

125. "Being against rape does not make one anti-sex, and vice verca"

That is exactly what I have been saying. I am in favor of the availability of the medical procedure known as abortion, just as I am in favor of the fact that sex is a part of human behavioral repetiore. I oppose the act of coercing abortion or any other surgical procedure just as I oppose coercive sex.

[ehrnst]

134. Then you are pro (whatever is consentual - which is choice) which also includes adoption.

That would confuse an anti-choicer, because they don't see it from a consent point of view.

They see pro-abortion as anti-adoption, or anti-birth, because choice isn't part of their concept, and the terminology doesn't address consent.

Pro-choice addresses all of them in one term.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

30. Hey there, nice to meet you.

I'm a fan of safe, proven, routine healthcare procedures that make people's lives better. Abortion fits the bill.

[Weekend Warrior]

159. I'm all for that as an available option. Nt

[metalbot]

192. I've met a few

Mostly anti-population extremists who essentially argue that people should have more abortions.

Just a handful in my entire life though...

[Hekate]

4. Offs, Soxfan58

[wryter2000]

5. No one is pro abortion

Period

[NurseJackie]

12. True. Thank you.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

16. Not true.

When it comes to looking for a tactic that ends an unwanted pregnancy, I'm pro-abortion.

[CrispyQ]

18. This.

[ehrnst]

93. And that makes you anti-abortion if it's coerced or forced on a woman. right? (nt)

[WhiskeyGrinder]

118. Lol.

[tonedevil]

184. Adding coerced or forced...

makes any action unacceptable. I'm anti-apple pie if it is coerced or forced. Do you have a real point?

[AtheistCrusader]

189. Anti-Apple Pie? I challenge you to a duel! Spoons at dawn!

[A HERETIC I AM]

17. There are some who would disagree...

but the point is really moot.

It's none of my business what someone else does with their own body.

[mountain grammy]

19. Exactly!

[David__77]

22. I'm pro-abortion.

I'm glad that this procedure exists.

[wryter2000]

34. I'm for the freedom to have an abortion

Speaking as someone who had one before Roe, I have a very personal stake in it. To me, saying I'm pro abortion means I'm in favor of dictating it to other people the same way "pro life" tells women what they can do with their bodies.

Besides, saying I'm pro abortion plays into the hands of the "pro life" crowd.

[AtheistCrusader]

75. I am not interested in allowing the Pro Birth crowd to dictate terms.

Let's not pretend they are 'pro life' either.

[ehrnst]

124. I'll call them the pro-forced childbearing crowd.

I was pro-birth when I had my son, and I won't put myself in the same category as the pro-forced childbearing crowd.

They are anti-choice. I am pro-choice when it comes to birth and not giving birth.

There were people who asked how I could be "pro-abortion" and still be thrilled seeing my sonograms.

I said, "It's because I consented to childbearing. If you look at it from the point of view of choice, that makes perfect sense."

[Pachamama]

154. Well said

[beam me up scottie]

64. Thank you, and exactly. You get it.

Being pro-abortion is no different than being pro-root canal or pro-appendectomy. You're not saying you want to force others to have root canals and appendectomies, just that you support the procedure.

[Renew Deal]

52. That was always Bill Clinton's argument

And it was a wise one to make

[jmg257]

178. Or not.

[brucefan]

6. Explain

"Pro abortion"

[CountAllVotes]

7. How about PRO WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

Or is that too much to ask for?

No woman out there should be forced to give birth to a child she does not want btw!

[elehhhhna]

49. And pro privacy and pro bodily autonomy

And pro privacy and pro bodily autonomy because a government that can prevent your abortion can also make you have one. They have no fucking business in anyone's reproductive choices ever

[Pachamama]

156. I consider myself Pro-Reproductive Choice & Rights

That includes a woman's and mans rights to access to birth control, healthcare, pre and post natal care, and yes, termination of a pregnancy "abortion" if that is

I am opposed to anybody that tells me or any other man or woman what they can do in their reproductive choices and their body.

[irisblue]

8. Would you please explain your position to us.

I am with 3 of your 4 points. I'd like to hear your reasoning. Thanks in advance.

[stonecutter357]

9. wow!

[Eliot Rosewater]

10. I am pro abortion.

Abortion is a medical procedure, between the woman and her physician.

Abortion is an important medical procedure, I am pro abortion the way I am pro tonsillectomy.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

14. Gah, you beat me to it!

[6000eliot]

11. I'm pro-spelling, but that's just me.

[irisblue]

15. autocorrect can be an A hole sometimes though.

[6000eliot]

21. I know. I've been caught too. Sorry for the snark.

[irisblue]

24. No issue at all

autocorrect catches me too many times.

[unblock]

57. Autocorrect is my worst enema

[OriginalGeek]

62. that's the ducking truth.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

13. I'm pro-abortion the same way I'm pro-appendectomy or pro-microdiscectomy.

Being pro-healthcare-tactic for people who need healthcare is generally a good position to be in.

[Oneironaut]

20. The correct term is "pro-choice," not "pro-abortion." Nobody here actually likes that

fetuses are aborted. However, the option to have an abortion is a good thing. It's always a difficult situation.

I agree with your message content.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

27. Please be careful speaking for others about how they feel about abortion.

It's not always a "difficult situation" and promoting a narrative that it should be doesn't help women.

[blackdove78]

47. Definately not always

My abortion wasn't the slightest bit difficult.

[beam me up scottie]

83. It's not always a difficult situation.

Before I even knew for certain I was pregnant I had already made the decision to abort. No soul searching, no second guessing, no twinges of conscience. When the test came back positive I couldn't make the appointment fast enough. When it was over all I felt was relief.

[bettyellen]

23. We ARE pro education, pro contraception, pro choice and not ashamed to support the right to abort.

[Caliman73]

26. The termination of a pregnancy is a medical procedure.

When you say things like "We should not be pro abortion" you play into the hands of anti-choice people. They have tried to infuse their own interpretation of religion into a personal medical decision. Should we not be saying that we are "Not pro appendectomy!" too? We are pro choice and if that choice happens to be abortion, then we are pro abortion. Yielding on words, just gives opponents of women's rights that much more power.

[lark]

28. You don't get to decide the policies favored here.

I understand your point is that with education and contraception abortion shouldn't be that common. However, shit happens. Things happen, like - the birth control pill failed, fetus turns out to not be viable, mom gets condition where she can't carry the baby to term and it's not viable, younger woman couldn't get birth control because parents wouldn't allow it and condom breaks, woman who wasn't sexually active gets drunk and has sex, whether consensual or not. If a woman needs an abortion, she should have the right to have one, and we should support her decision,period the end.

[Intransigent Atheist]

29. I've never met anyone that is pro abortion.

I would think that for anyone to be pro abortion, they would have to be a misanthrope the likes of which most of us would never see, thankfully.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

32. Being a fan of routine healthcare procedures that make people's lives better is not misanthropic.

[Thomas Hurt]

35. Not that I think this is prevalent but...

Those on the left should not commit political idolatry of abortion dogma like some on the right idolize the firearm and 2nd Amendment dogma.

[demmiblue]

37. ...

I would say more, but...

[WhiskeyGrinder]

38. .

[ProudLib72]

36. So you're saying

I shouldn't spend my Saturdays standing outside the clinic, accosting random women and forcing them to go inside?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

39. "Pro-Abortion" is a pernicious myth fueled by anti-choicers

I have NEVER heard anybody refer to themselves as such.

[hlthe2b]

40. Only in the RW's ugly spin, are Liberal/progressives (or anyone for that matter),

PRO-ABORTION.

This just incenses me! So damned tired of RW memes and stereotypes being pushed here.

[shenmue]

53. Yeah

[AtheistCrusader]

84. I'm sorry, who are you speaking for today?

[hlthe2b]

86. Staunchly Pro-Choice does not equate to PRO-Abortion (& I speak for millions like myself, thank you)

Your apology is noted, however.

[AtheistCrusader]

87. Abortion is a specific choice/procedure that is specifically under attack. I don't waste my time

talking about the availability of condoms when this fight is happening:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/08/abortion-womens-health-outcomes-maternal-mortality/
New Study Shows that States With the Most Anti-Abortion Laws Also Have the Worst Women’s Health
“These policies only work to further place women at a disadvantage.”


THAT is why I'm pro abortion. Because it needs to be defended as a safe and legal option, or it will disappear.

[LeftyMom]

41. I'm pro abortion.

If you need one get one. They're legal and they're important.

[blackdove78]

48. Me too

I'm pro abortion for myself, pro choice for everybody else. Two of my kids wouldn't exist without abortion.

[LeftyMom]

56. I have a blood clotting disorder.

If I get pregnant I'm having an abortion. No debate, no apology, I'm not interested in risking my health.

[ehrnst]

123. You should absolutely be making that choice and no one else. (nt)

[fishwax]

43. what does "pro abortion" mean?

I'm pro abortion in the same way I'm pro birth control, pro MRI, pro aspirin, pro yoga, etc. If a woman wants access to any of those things, there should be no laws standing in her way, nor should she be compelled to consider the opinions of anyone (aside from, in some examples/cases, a medical professional).

[xajj4791]

44. I am pro abortion...

And can give you a list if you find a time machine. I have another list that should they show up I would be glad to stop their genes from perpetuating.

Other than this, what was your point OP? Besides trying to be obtuse and create arguments where none were before?

[DefenseLawyer]

45. If a woman wants an abortion, I am pro abortion.

I'm sorry if that makes you uncomfortable.

[LexVegas]

50. Jesus...

[syringis]

51. I'm not sure

of what you mean by "pro abortion".

By this do you mean that abortion should no be a sort of contraception afterwards ?

[get the red out]

54. Democrats are NEVER pro-abortion

We are for choice, all choices regarding reproduction. I don't even know what pro-abortion is? For people NOT being able to choose to have a baby when they are pregnant?

[AtheistCrusader]

79. When the other side works 24x7x365 to villify, demonize, guilt trip, restrict, ban abortion, etc

you fucking bet I identify as pro-abortion, because it needs to be actively defended if it is to remain a safe legal option for any variety of reasons a woman might choose it.

If they weren't pushing to strip it from society, to outlaw it, then I wouldn't have to be 'pro' anything, and it would just be a thing that people may choose if it fits their circumstance.

Not only that, but most pro-lifers ALSO work to instill abstinence only education, which has about the same failure rate as prayer. They work to restrict contraceptives. No plan B. Work to promulgate this ridiculous social stigma on sex outside the archetype of marriage they personally approve of and nothing else, etc. They actually work to make the need for abortion, to address expanded circumstances, more likely.

Until they back off, I'm pro-abortion.
When the war is over, I'll just be me and that's fine.

[beam me up scottie]

61. I'm pro-abortion. It's a medical procedure that saves lives.

Enough of the 'abortion should be rare' talking point.

It's just another way to shame women who have abortions. They want us to be ashamed of making that choice, to feel guilty and to admit we regret it. They want to use our stories as cautionary tales as if we did something wrong.

Fuck that noise. I had an abortion and I'm glad I did, I didn't hesitate or feel a twinge of conscience. Not once.

It's a medical procedure, period. And it's no one else's business.

[librechik]

65. NOBODY IS PRO ABORTION

That is just a lie that the Right Wing Christians have turned into a talking point.

[Heddi]

67. I'm pro-abortion

Please see my post below yours
I am anything but a right wing christian (I'm a socialist atheist) and I"m not a talking point.

[beam me up scottie]

68. I am.

[Heddi]

66. I'm pro-abortion

I'm a medical professional. If a woman wants an abortion, she has every right to receive one YES RIGHT UP UNTIL THE PRECIOUS SECONDS BEFORE BIRTH because that never happens and YES EVEN IF ITS BECAUSE THE BABY IS ONE GENDER AND NOT THE OTHER because that really isn't an issue anyways.

I am pro abortion. I will always be pro-abortion. I'm also pro-education (not everyone has the same ability or desire to learn, retain knowledge, or have abstract thought), and pro-contraception (no method of birth control is 100% effective), and pro-prevention (which would do nothing to prevent pregnancy via rape or birth control failure). But more than that, I'm pro-abortion.

And I am pro-choice. You have the choice to not have an abortion if you don't want one.

[beam me up scottie]

70. THIS RIGHT HERE!

[Solly Mack]

143. Thank you!

[hamsterjill]

69. I am pro choice, but more than that I believe having privacy is an issue of respect.

No one needs to tell anyone she needs/wants an abortion other than the healthcare provider she seeks the service from. Whomever else she might choose to involve in the matter is her choice as well.

It is no one else's business and it should NOT be a topic of discussion. It is a private and personal matter. End of story.

[dembotoz]

71. frankly i don't give a damn but i wont go namby pamby talk around the issue..fuck the fetus fetish

[johnp3907]

72. I'm pro-abortion.

Unabashedly so.

[ehrnst]

99. I'll bet you're not pro-abortion that is coerced or required.

So the term "pro-choice" would likely be more accurate.

[beam me up scottie]

109. I'm pro-abortion.

If I was pro-coerced or pro-forced abortion I would use those terms. But I'm not.

I am proudly pro-abortion.

The definition of pro:

pro: preposition & adverb

1. in favor of.

I am in favor of abortion so I'm pro-abortion. It's an accurate term.

[AtheistCrusader]

110. If it's banned, there's no opportunity for choice. If it's not available, you can't choose it.

Here in the PacNW there are many hospitals that simply won't offer it anymore. What then, of choice?

Sorry, not on the menu, so to speak.

11 of 12 regional hospitals here in Seattle are now operating under the ownership of, or joint operating agreement with the catholic church, and thus catholic medical ethics rules. The US wing of the RCC is buying up entire hospitals and entire billing systems, and entire insurance systems. It's an end-run on banning it.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/faith-healers/Content?oid=16050396


It is not enough to say 'I am pro choice' when the raw availability of the option is no longer an option to choose.

They are in it to win it, and we need to be as well.

[beam me up scottie]

112. Yep. Pro-choice is too wishy washy for me.

I understand why people don't want to use the term pro-abortion and why the party will never use it - but I'm not afraid to wear it proudly.

Abortion isn't a bad word and it's time to stop treating it like it's a Bad Thing. And it's long past time to stop pretending that women who have abortions did something wrong.

I support as many abortions as women need, I don't use weasel words like 'rare'. It should be paid for by insurance and easily accessible at clinics, doctors' offices and hospitals. It shouldn't be viewed any differently than any other medical procedure.

[ehrnst]

115. I wear it proudly because it puts her consent front and center - her, not the procedure

Her CHOICE is the what is important in any and all childbearing decisions and procedures.

It covers it all.

Just pro (the choice of the woman.)

[beam me up scottie]

119. I'm pro-life saving medical procedures and that includes abortion.

No one says they're pro-choice when it comes to mastectomies, appendectomies or any other surgical procedure. How is abortion different?

The right spent decades shaming women for choosing to terminate their pregnancies and turning the word abortion into a lightning rod that no one wants to touch. I refuse to play their game. I reject the stigma.

[ehrnst]

121. Life-saving would involve consent.

When I argue with anti-choicers, I ask them if forced childbearing is a positive thing, because that is what the alternative to choice is.

They have the mindset that childbearing is the opposite morally of abortion, because consent is not a part of the discussion - but forced childbearing is not in any way more moral than consentual abortion.

The shame should be on anyone who reduces childbearing to something forced on a woman. The absence of consent is what turns any procedure into an abomination.

That is why I call myself pro-choice, because that is what is most important in any discussion of any reproductive procedure.

I think that the Duggars have thrown morality out the window, but I will respect choice.

[beam me up scottie]

132. Which is why I don't use the term pro-forced abortion to describe my support for the procedure.

I just posted the definition of pro as an adverb, it means 'in favor of' something. So when we say we're pro-abortion that means were in favor of it. It doesn't mean we want to force someone to have an abortion.

I'm not pro-forced birth or pro-forced abortion, and I'm not anti-abortion, I'm pro-abortion.

I'm also pro-birth control and pro-sex education. If I said that out loud no one would think I meant that people should be forced to use birth control and learn about sex education. Abortion is no different.

I'm also pro-sex, pro-vegetarianism, pro-marijuana, and pro-whatever-adults-want-to-do as long as everyone consents. That doesn't mean I want to force others to have sex, give up meat or smoke pot.

[ehrnst]

158. Political terms carry their own meaning, and that can be different from general meanings.

The political term "pro-choice," as we all know, applies to abortion legislation, not to pizza toppings. It is used because "pro-abortion" isn't accurate in the political definition. "Pro-choice" doesn't promote one option over another, as pro-abortion would lead someone to believe you favor that option in a political discussion. It is a reflection of what the medical community has stated is the best practice for public health and safety, and the medical community code of ethics forbids them from favoring one medically appropriate option over another to a patient who has a choice to make. The informed patient is the one who does the favoring.

"Pro-life" in a political discussion means, as we all know, that you oppose legal access to abortion, not that you prefer a particular brand of cereal. I will never say I am "pro-life" and "pro-choice" as many pro-choice people do, because that involves mixing non political phrases with political labels, no matter what the adverb implies means in other contexts.

A writer I know said that "because I have a baby, I always have come down on the side of "life." Misusing that term erases "choice" or "consent" from the discussion as a valid concept. I told him that because I have given birth, I will always support childbirth by choice, rather than forced childbirth. I took the argument out of the "dead baby vs live baby" back and forth, by simply bringing it back to "willing" or "forced" view of childbearing - without focusing on what is "best" for her.

The opposite of "choice" is "forced" - the opposite of abortion is childbirth. When you make the discussion about the options, rather than about the choice, the true crux of the argument - the woman's will - is bypassed.

[beam me up scottie]

185. Please stop telling me I can't be pro-abortion because you think it means something it doesn't

And words mean things, pro means: in favor of.

So when I and other people say we are pro-abortion we mean we are in favor of the procedure.

I don't give a pink patootie what rhetoric anti-abortion people use, I'm not going to run from the word abortion because it's been demonized.

I. Am. Pro-abortion.

It does not mean pro-forced abortion. If I wanted to say I was pro-forced abortion I would use those words.

One more time:


Pro: in favor of

Pro-abortion: in favor of abortion



I am pro-abortion.


If you don't like the term don't use it, but please don't tell me I shouldn't because you don't like it.

Thanks.

[ehrnst]

187. I'm not telling you any such thing.

I'm just explaining why this isn't used in the political world, and why someone who is assuming that you are using the term in a political sense would think you mean something else.

No one is censoring you....

[AtheistCrusader]

190. That's an entirely different proposition than this thread started with.

When questioned, I'll still politically identify as pro-abortion. Nobody's talking about the DNC party platform position statements here.

[AtheistCrusader]

74. You're not the boss of me.

Abortion is fine. Null implications.

I am equally pro education, pro contraception, pro family planning (including IVF, AI) and pro choice, including pro abortion.

[Freethinker65]

77. How about pro reproductive healthcare (which includes abortion)

[politicat]

78. I am pro- It's none of your business if it's not your body.

I don't tell you to lay off the carbs or I'll disapprove of your cardiac bypasses. I don't get a judgement in anyone else's surgical or bodily decisions (except when that person specifically and legally outsourced the decision to me, such as the medical POAs I hold/have held.) It's not my business to doubt other people's bodily autonomy, but it is my business to vehemently oppose those who think they do have a right to determine other people's autonomy.

I don't care what your specific decisions are for your body. You get to make them, and you don't need to report them to anyone. But in having that privacy, you have the responsibility to defend that privacy for everyone else.

[Hekate]

80. Flame bait. I see the OP has disappeared to let us fight amongst ourselves.

[demmiblue]

95. Yep. n/t

[marybourg]

89. Only the right wing uses that term, and

it has no place on DU.

[ehrnst]

90. Um...pro-choice is anti-abortion when a woman doesn't consent.(nt)

[madokie]

94. I'm pro

whatever a person wants as long as its not harming me or anyone else for that matter
I figure its none of my fucking business

[hamsterjill]

106. +1

n/t

[DrDan]

101. absolutely pro choice - huge mistake in allowing the R's to label us as pro-abotion

they should have been challenged every time they uttered those words

[Bettie]

103. Pro-abortion is a less precise term than pro-choice

Choice indicates that it is entirely the decision of each individual woman what she does with her body.

This is why I don't call the ones who call themselves "pro-life" by that name, they are anti-choice, against letting a woman make her own choices and they are only "pro" fetal life, with zero care for the lives of women.

Of course, once that fetus takes a breath outside the womb, they don't care at all what happens to it.

Now, OP, if you personally believe that abortion is wrong, then don't have one. It is not your job or my job to decide for anyone but ourselves.

[AtheistCrusader]

111. Anti-Choice, or Pro-Birth.

Then it's 'bootstraps for you, kid, quit mooching off the gubmint'.

[Major Nikon]

146. I call them pro-forced-birthers

Which I feel is more descriptive.

I see nothing wrong with the term or being pro-abortion. Abortion is a medical procedure and just like virtually all other medical procedures (with the possible exception of executions) are voluntary.

[Me.]

107. What?

You wanted a long thread? Attention?

[greymattermom]

108. and pro support

for born children.

[ebbie15644]

113. I don't care what it's called as long as the gov't quits telling women what the hell to do with

their body. My body my choice. Pro-abortion is just fine to me

[jmg257]

114. With over 600,000 reported abortions a year, I think 'pro-abortion' covers it.

You can be for it, or against it, easy enough.

[Solly Mack]

120. Abortion is a medical procedure. I'm pro necessary and needed medical procedures.

So, yeah, you can call me pro-abortion. If a woman wants an abortion, then she needs that medical procedure.

I'm also pro-birth control for men and women. Pro-sex education. Pro-education (period). Pro-living wage. Pro-affordable housing. Pro-affordable child care. Pro-income equality. Pro-equality in job hiring. Pro- equality and fairness in the justice system. Pro-harassment free work places.

For those who haven't met anyone pro-abortion...

Hi, my name is Solly Mack. Nice to meet you.

You can cross that off your bucket list now.

[johnp3907]

127. One just told me I'm not pro-abortion.

I guess I'm a man who got 'splained to!

[beam me up scottie]

135. You're a good ally, johnp3907. You get it.

I wish there were more like you.

[Solly Mack]

139. I'm a female and I don't know what you mean by "One"...did you mean Someone just told you?

People react negatively to the word abortion because they were either taught by their religion it was wrong, or maybe their parents told them it was wrong. Or whatever.

But it's a medical procedure and I see no reason to pretend it is anything else. People bring their own baggage to the word - not the other way around. That's not the case with all words, of course.

It's a medical procedure. People need to stop turning it into anything else.

If people want to take the negativity out of the word - a negativity people put into the word to begin with - they might try thinking of it as medical science - because, well, it is.

But then some people fear the word science, so...

Yes, I know women struggle with the decision - some do, anyway. But that's their emotional journey and can't be said to be true of all women. A look at why some women are made to feel negative/bad about the medical procedure would better serve to remove the negative connotation than to pretend there is anything wrong with the medical procedure itself.

I can only speak for myself.

[johnp3907]

140. I meant one of the people posting on this thread.

I feel the same--it's a medical procedure and we shouldn't demonize it.

[Solly Mack]

142. Thank you. Exactly. We shouldn't demonize it.

It serves no purpose other than to put more of a burden on a woman. To shame her.

Thank you!!!

[Mariana]

163. Plenty of people who are supposedly on our side

still believe that abortion is inherently A Bad Thing. You never hear anyone insist they should not be called "pro-whatever" about any other issue. Can you just imagine anyone saying, "Don't say I'm pro-same sex marriage. That implies I'm in favor of it in every circumstance. Well, I'm not in favor of forcing people to marry someone of the same sex, therefore I'm no pro-same sex marriage. I'm pro-choice about same sex marriage." No, this bullshit only happens when talking about abortion.

[Solly Mack]

165. Yep

[beam me up scottie]

136. Hello Solly Mack.

I too am pro-abortion, pro-birth control for men and women. Pro-sex education. Pro-education (period). Pro-living wage. Pro-affordable housing. Pro-affordable child care. Pro-income equality. Pro-equality in job hiring. Pro- equality and fairness in the justice system. Pro-harassment free work places.

Yes on everything you said.

[Solly Mack]

141. Hello to you Bmus!

I simply can't pretend abortion is a reason to speak in hushed tones.

Like it's some dirty secret to ashamed of.

And the only reason it is expected to be done is to make "pro-lifers" feel better - and all it does is play into their thinking that abortion is wrong.

If there is no shame, then act like it.

If you play to "pro-lifers" (and everyone please note the quotes) then they come away thinking that you secretly think it wrong.

I've had "pro-lifers" say as much to me. That liberals don't like saying pro-abortion because they know it's wrong, so they say pro-choice instead. That we wouldn't say pro-abortion because we want to live in denial about what it really is.

And they had such smug looks on their faces when they told me that.

I set them straight in short order.

Abortion is medical procedure and the only baggage it comes with is the baggage people bring into it.

..........

No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion - that strips choice/options/autonomy from women as well. For those thinking it clever to equate being pro medical procedure with being forced-abortion. Pro and forced do not mean the same.

[beam me up scottie]

148. Exactly! It's time to stop letting them demonize abortion.

I argue frequently with pro-forced birthers and they're rabidly puritanical. They still think sex is sinful and that women should be forced to give birth as a consequence.

They literally view pregnancy and childbirth as an appropriate punishment for enjoying sex. I mean think about how horrific that is.

You can't reason with people like that, they can't be reached, but we can try to counter their propaganda.

Taking away the stigma associated with abortion is one step in the right direction.

[WinkyDink]

152. You have established the essential differences between the Parties. We are "pro"; Republicans are

"anti."

[Solly Mack]

170. Thank you.

Full disclosure, though - I am anti-republican.

[WinkyDink]

171. Pro-Democrat!

[Solly Mack]

172. And back to pro I go.

[Lil Missy]

122. Nobody is "pro-abortion". Pro-CHOICE means you can chose to have an abortion, or not.

Nice try, but misconstruing the FACTS is easy to spot here on DU, it's been used so many times to no avail.

[Lebam in LA]

128. Who's pro-abortion?

I've met some of the most ardent pro-choicer's imaginable and not one of them is pro-abortion.

[Hekate]

129. Where did the OP go? Off to start a fight someplace else?

[Me.]

130. Hit & Run

[pwb]

138. I don't approve of abortion, but I accept it when others may need it.

I believe in free will and if we are judged it will be as individuals not as a country or government.

[WinkyDink]

151. It is the law. There is nothing for you to "accept" or reject.

[AtheistCrusader]

166. I approve, and I refuse to guilt trip other people by joining in to beat that drum of 'I don't appro

ve of abortion BUT' or 'I'm personally against abortion BUT', etc,

Fomenting the idea that there is a negative moral implication to abortion is, at best, unhelpful. Frankly, I think it's inhumane to treat people like that.

[Warren DeMontague]

145. You are using right wing framing, here.

Stop.

[Voltaire2]

149. I'm pro abortion.

There is nothing wrong with it. I'm also pro heart surgery,

[LAS14]

167. This is an example of what prompted the OP, I'm pretty sure.

Some of us want to acknowledge the moral complexity of dealing with two lives. I'm pro choice all the way, but we impinge on other people's choice when we insist that "there's nothing wrong with it." We should just leave it that it can be a difficult decision, but that women have to make it for themselves.

[Voltaire2]

173. If you don't want heart surgery that's your business.

I reject your assumption that we are dealing with two lives.

[LAS14]

193. Well, you've got to agree that it's a debatable point. Right?

[Voltaire2]

195. Sure, but I am in no way compelling you to have an abortion.

On the other hand you seem to find it unacceptable that I am in favor of abortions just as I am in favor of heart surgery. You are the one rejecting the validity of the "pro abortion" position.

[Mariana]

175. "We impinge on other people's choice

when we insist that there's nothing wrong with it."

Please explain how, exactly, that impinges on anyone's choice.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

177. No moral complexity about it for me at all.

[LAS14]

194. Yeah, but there is for a lot of people. That was the OP's point. nt

[50 Shades Of Blue]

196. And for plenty of people, there isn't.

[beam me up scottie]

186. Exactly. What is so difficult about that?

I'm pro-contraception too.

[WinkyDink]

150. I AM PRO ROE v. WADE, the law of the land since 1973!! People need to finally STHU about it!! DU,

included!

[Pachamama]

153. Who f*ck is pro-abortion? WTF???

This post is clearly bait...

[Tetunot]

157. This Is What I Call It

Mind your own damn business! That's what I've named it. Don't dictate to me or any other woman what we can and can not do w/our bodies.

[LanternWaste]

161. Nor should we be pro-refractive eye surgery.

No more and no less than we should be pro-refractive eye surgery.

(anyone could of course, add the irrelevance and absurdity of coerced refractive eye surgery, yet that particular is still both irrelevant and absurd).

[50 Shades Of Blue]

176. Speak for yourself! I am pro abortion.

[FSogol]

179. Somebody only listens to RW framing & doesn't know what "choice" means. Is it you Soxfan58?

* ?

Please prove your point by showing us all the mandatory abortion candidates.

[Raine1967]

180. Uhm, who is we and what do you mean?

[Skittles]

182. pro-abortion is a term repukes use

because they're all for freedom unless it involves women making their own choices

[tenderfoot]

188. Flame Baiting BULLSHIT

[AtheistCrusader]

191. lol

[Iggo]

197. Correct. And that's why we're Pro-Choice.

One of those choices is abortion.

The rest are not.