Bernie isn't the problem.... but the bernbots are

[scheming daemons]

Many (most?) of them aren't even pro-Bernie.... they're alt-right trolls pretending to be Bernie supporters so that they have "cred" among the gullible on the left when they attack the likes of Corey Booker or Kamala Harris.

If you are a Democrat and you do NOT like Kamala Harris, I have to question your authenticity.

She is exceptional on the issues, she has an outstanding background, and she's super intelligent.

I don't know if she'll be the best Presidential candidate, but I'm giving her a LONG look. And in the meantime, I love how much she is holding Trump's feet to the fire.

Anybody trashing her at this point has to be assumed to be an alt-right troll trying to cause trouble.

Be wary of anybody claiming to be a Bernie supporter who attacks someone like Kamala Harris. They're likely a troll.

[stopbush]

1. We love Kamala here in CA.

It was great to vote for her in the primary and the general.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

16. CA Sanders supporters don't like her. Think She's corporate.

Remember it was the CA group at the convention who protested the loudest.

[Caliman73]

67. Unfortunately, those same Bernie supporters

like to show up to speeches and conventions and scream loud, but they don't show up to vote. Why should Harris supporters care?

edited to add: I voted for Bernie in the primary. I like Harris. You can't pigeon hole people into either or.

[pnwmom]

79. And some of the loudest were GREENS. And most of us understand more about Greens now

than we did then.

https://www.democracynow.org/2016/7/29/california_delegates_walk_off_the_floor

AMY GOODMAN: There were also protests on the floor of the convention, with chants of "No more war" heard throughout the evening. Scores of Sanders delegates wore fluorescent green shirts reading "Enough is enough," which appeared to glow in the dark whenever the arena lights dimmed in between speakers. Many of these delegates also held signs reading "No More Wars," "Ban Fracking Now," "#DNC Email Leaks" and "Jill Stein." Some delegates walked off the floor of the DNC in protest. Democracy Now! caught up with one of the groups from California just after they walked out.

CALIFORNIA DELEGATE: Jill, not Hill! Jill, not Hill! Jill, not Hill!

[SleeplessinSoCal]

91. And they defend their votes to this day.

That was a gruesome campaign. I fear there is still a wedge there. DNC Chair to Tom Perez rather than Keith Ellison left another bruise. They are pissed off. And I think the people I'm debating in Rohrabacher's district vote. Not all, but most.

[Ninsianna]

126. Weren't they those ugly people yelling at and shaming women attending a

rally? The ones who snatched a sign that had signed from a little girl and ripped it up. They were scaring women in wheelchairs and elderly ladies coming out from the entrance.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

145. not sure about that. some ate anarchists no doubt .

I dont think they're unified.

[jpljr77]

2. No, Bernie supporters are not alt-right trolls, they're just previously unaffiliated

There are a ton of similarities between the Bernie base and the Trump base, principal among them is a dissatisfaction with the current state of politics. And they are so dissatisfied, they are willing to burn the whole thing down just to watch the flames (probably more Trump supporters than Bernie, but still). So yeah, they're reflexive and try to be edgy and yell, because they know their time is fleeting and it's probably almost up.

If you are a Democrat and you do NOT like Kamala Harris, I have to question your authenticity.

This is a sad, sad statement. Anyone can form opinions about anyone else. I happen to actively love Harris, but I'm not going to tell others what to think.

[Madam Mossfern]

5. I support Bernie

and I take great exception to your statement, especially as Chair of my town's Democratic Committee. When he lost the primary, I supported Hillary Clinton. I still like Bernie - think he's great.

[ProfessorPlum]

11. me too

[left-of-center2012]

27. ditto...

[Greybnk48]

34. Me too!

He's a great guy and always has been!

[mountain grammy]

39. Me too!

Way off base.

[LiberalLovinLug]

52. Me three!

[Duppers]

58. Me four.

Poster wrote, "there are a TON of similarities between the Bernie base and the Trump base."

For fuck's sake.

[Raine]

75. Me too! nt

[WhiteTara]

78. I just wish he liked us Democrats as much

as Democrats like him.

[riderinthestorm]

80. Yup. Me too nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

102. +1000000!

[Ninsianna]

128. But you're not a bot, there is a difference between Bernie supporters and the bots.

You can tell who they are by the content and their behavior, there is usually not much of a distinction between the Trumpots and the ones supposedly supporting Bernie, but who don't seem to be remotely about supporting Bernie at all.

[geek tragedy]

20. the Bernie base and the Trump base are nothing alike. NOTHING.

Bernie is young, educated liberals. Trump's base is old dumbfuck racists.

[Ninsianna]

129. We're not talking about the base, but the bots.

Bernie's base is not young or educated, there are a lot of older people and those who have clearly not finished their education and who are still figuring out what liberalism is.

There are a lot of dumbfuck racists, and poorly programmed bots online who are indistinguishable and whose ignorance is clearly willful.

[NRaleighLiberal]

38. completely inaccurate blanket statement there...generalize much?

Bernie supporter here who switched to Hillary when he dropped out. Love Kamala Harris. Your attitude does not help at all.

[Duppers]

61. Exactly!

[emulatorloo]

146. OP is not about you. Is about BoBs and rightwing trolls pretending to support Bernie.

Those groups do exist, loudly spewing nonsense on the twitterverse and Reddit.

I am a Bernie primary supporter and I am not a bob or a wingnut. Neither are you.

These folk need to be called out because they detract from Bernie's message and they damn sure don't support Bernie the way you do.

[AllyCat]

73. I am part of the Bernie base and there is NOTHING

I like about 45. Get a grip.

[R B Garr]

113. A lot of truth in this. There's was a reason for Trump's con job.

[Ninsianna]

127. I believe the OP made a distinction between Bernie supporters and the online bots.

The bots are alt-right trolls.

The ones attacking Kamala Harris by personally abusing her and pretending it's about policies are who are sad.

[leftstreet]

3. The average Bernie rally goer has never heard of Harris or Booker

It's just more internal Democratic party territorial pissing

[scheming daemons]

4. Correct... it is alt-right trolls PRETENDING to be Bernie supporters who are attacking Harris

...and Booker.


That's my point.

[PDittie]

35. I believe

that is a laughably false statement.

[mountain grammy]

41. That is a totally ridiculous statement..

[Ninsianna]

130. This isn't internal, this is external.

It's what they've been doing all along. The virulent hatred of the ONLINE bots. Creating division where there is none, from the OUTSIDE.

[bettyellen]

6. I know quite a few who have picked up the russianpropaganda and run with it.....

And Sanders not downplaying the issue - not wanting to admit there's a ton of bot support is too much like what Trump is doing. They're both pretending it's all rea support. It's time to shed those delusions.

[NurseJackie]

9. I've seen that as well. You're not alone.

[mountain grammy]

42. Define "quite a few"

Did you work on any campaign? Did you attend caucuses? I'd like to know what your source is for quite a few.

[bettyellen]

47. People I know in real life- some friends of 25years and some others friends of friends.

I'd say dozens all together over last year- the vast majority of political discussions I've had in real life over the past 18 months. Seen the same reflected on social media as well. If I'd only seen it on social media I'd assume that the majority of them were bots. But it's not been borne out I real life.

Thankfully my state doesn't have caucuses. LOL. Heard how awful they are. Primaries are democratic, causcuses are exclusionary. My volunteering was for out of state campaigns, mostly Nevada because I'm in a safe state. Wish I'd done more in PA but hindsight...

[mountain grammy]

60. Our caucus was great.. lot's of discussion

I loved it and will miss it. Only know one Sanders supporter who voted for Stein..my cousin who actually lives in Jamaica. The rest in my world supported and voted for Hillary. My son threatened, but he put a Hillary bumper sticker on his car and swallowed what he thought was a grossly unfair selection process in the Democratic party and just hopes we all live to fight another day.

Honestly, if someone claimed to support Sanders and his policies then turned their backs on the next best choice we were given, I don't think they were really Bernie supporters in the first place.

[spooky3]

82. I have a young family member who says he

Voted for Obama and would have voted for Bernie, had he been the nominee, but voted for Trump. I was stunned when he said this.

I'm not sure how many like him there are, but they do exist.

[mountain grammy]

84. He had no understanding of who Sanders is or what he stands for.

and would have voted trump anyway as soon as he found out. But, my very activist son said the Democratic party didn't understand the deep hatred of Hillary Clinton. That, combined with outright misogyny, he says, is why we have trump. He thinks white men distrust women as leaders more than they distrust a black man, white women too, and I think he may have something there.

I think Hillary won, which she did, but I think she really won. The sad thing is, it shouldn't have been close enough for them to steal it.

[spooky3]

86. I agree with your son.

My relative told me he hated Clinton, and of course this was not due to her being female.

[mountain grammy]

87. He works in a refinery with a hundred mostly white guys.

He's active in his union, has held office. Really in touch with working mostly men. He saw it coming. Depressing. None of these men were gung ho for Bernie either, but he thinks they would have voted for him over trump because he's male. These are union men! My son.. he saves! Plans on early retirement.

[seaglass]

100. Seriously? There is one right in this thread who wrote in Bernie in the GE. I do not question that

person's Bernie support AT ALL.

Do you think the majority of DUers with a long history here who went to JPR are fake Bernie supporters? I do not believe that, they have been twisted by propaganda and Hillary hate but I think they absolutely support/supported Bernie.

On edit: Excuse me, I made a mistake, there are 2 in this thread who wrote in Bernie for President, not just 1.

[Ninsianna]

132. I think that's what the OP and many others are saying. Be careful about the

vociferous people ONLINE, who are seeking to sow division, they're most likely bots and they are probably alt-right, if not other external actors.

The "infighting" the media is setting up is an online construct, it's not what's going on in the party.

[bettyellen]

151. Discussion that came at the price of excluding so many voters is never good.

I agree with your son below about the rampant misogyny. To think they could trust Trump is beyond misinformed - it's so sexist in its foolish tribalism. Literally scared a woman could be smarter than them. So they voted for a moron.

[FSogol]

7. +1 Well said. n/t

[LonePirate]

8. I agree. Bernie is not the problem but a subset of his supporters is another story.

The vast majority of Bernie supporters are good Democrats and Independents with nothing but the best intentions for the country. A much smaller contingent of his supporters have me questioning their motives, though. Are they interested in his agenda or in something else?

[trueblue2007]

10. I AGREE WITH YOU. "Bernbots" need to stabilize and support DEMOCRATS !!!!

[AllyCat]

74. Please define Bernbot

[Raine]

97. Not calling Bernie supporters "Bernbots" would be a start!

[NastyRiffraff]

147. Seems like I remember the term "Hillbot" being tossed around

Regularly. Still is, though not as often.

But I suppose that's okay, right?

[NastyRiffraff]

148. Seems like I remember the term "Hillbot" being tossed around

Regularly. Still is, though not as often.

But I suppose that's okay, right?

[ProfessorPlum]

12. Beware of people saying that Kamala Harris has been "anointed"

or that she is worshiped like a deity. That will be next. If she gathers strength, the online trolls will start to Clinton/Sanders her.

[NewJeffCT]

21. I've seen that a few places online

Sanders supporters claiming that Harris has been anointed and is the DNC candidate - mostly citing that she visited Clinton and some of her donors recently. I also like how she's the DNC candidate because of Tom Perez, seemingly ignoring Keith Ellison, one of Sanders' earliest supporters who is co-head of the DNC.

[Duppers]

24. Last paragraph for the save.

"Be wary of anybody claiming to be a Bernie supporter who attacks someone like Kamala Harris. They're likely a troll".


FOR SURE.

[PDittie]

36. You forgot

the sarcasm emoticon.



FIFY

[Duppers]

43. I support Bernie AND Kamala.

I know other Bernie supporters who feel exactly the same way.

Corey and Kamala especially are both sharp as tacks. Sen. Harris was damn impressive in the Senate hearings! So, I wouldn't hesitate to vote for either, but I'd rather see Kamala run. I truly HATE that this country is so f'n misogynistic.

You fixed nothing imo.


🐦

[Ninsianna]

131. We've seen this before, and far too many people bought into it and realized too late,

we know what they're about now, and we must not them play this dumb game again.

Anyone looking at policies and who bothers to look at what these guys are actually fighting for knows there is no difference between Bernie's positions and those of the people they're trying to attack. They're all fighting together against the GOP. There are forces seeking to sow chaos, and the usual suspects are helping.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

14. I engaged on Facebook and was immediately chastised for defending her.

At first the criticism was of Hillary staff member Peter Daou.

http://freebeacon.com/politics/former-clinton-adviser-sanders-detrimental-democratic-party/

Nobody joined me. Just lots of snark. One woman among them admitted to being a Berniebro. Some denied there was any such group.

[uponit7771]

15. Unnnn, there are somethings Sanders has said RECENTLY that engender this attitude towards the

... "establishment" that includes people who like America's government including blacks and Hispanics.

[GaryCnf]

17. Let me ask you a question

I think Kamala Harris is strong on the vast majority of issues.

She's clearly intelligent.

I know she gets blasted for not prosecuting Mnuchin, but I don't see her "selling out to corporations" as she has been accused of doing. In fact, I think she's actually pretty good on that score.

She has a great story.

Most of all, she has been near the top when it comes to holding Trump's and his minions' feet to the fire.

But her position on criminal justice issues is for the most part diametrically opposed to mine. For all the attempts to obfuscate, the fact is that the bill she introduced in 2006 may well have done no more than strengthen California's existing civil forfeiture bill by allowing assets to be frozen (but not seized) even before a suspect has been arrested BUT she was also a huge supporter of that existing civil forfeiture bill AND that bill is being used to destroy the lives of people who are not the big timers she claims are the only ones she cares about getting. She defended California's death penalty at a time when opposition from the AG might well have led to its demise. She also has issues surrounding the SF Crime lab. To be fair, I support any effort to correct the racism and classism in our bail systems so even though I think it's pretty weak I applaud her current efforts in that area.

I wouldn't hesitate to vote for her and work for her in a general election, but I am black and I am a former federal defender who has practiced in California and criminal justice is a major issue for me so her position on these issues definitely weigh against her in a primary.

Given the fact that Senator Harris's support civil asset forfeiture appears to be the number one reason people give for not supporting her AND the fact that those supporting her have repeatedly claimed that the accusation that she supports civil forfeiture is false and that she really being opposed because she is a black female AND the fact that I have just stated based on my first-hand knowledge and experience that she is indeed weak on civil forfeiture and other criminal justice issues BUT ALSO given the fact that I can readily articulate the many things I admire about her,

am I just trying to cause trouble or am I a well-informed Democrat who can acknowledge and weigh both the strengths and the weaknesses of a potential candidate?

[byronius]

18. Absofuckinglutely.

[Skidmore]

19. A read.

http://www.shakesville.com/2017/08/sanders-democrats-dont-own-left.html

[Boysterload]

22. I personally know of a very strong Bernie supporter

She refused to vote for Hillary in Texas, hates Pelosi, hates Booker for his corporate ties and Rx drug problems. I have no idea who Kamala Harris is so I cannot comment on that. Like another commenter said, many of the pro-Bernie crowd were never voters in the first place. They registered Dem in order to vote for Bernie. I'd be careful with calling many of them trolls. They are some die-hard fans and hate all the corporate ties traditional politicians have. Bernie opened our eyes that there is another way than corporate money. No, I am certainly not a troll either. You can check my comment history on Reddit under the same username for proof.

[PDittie]

37. Well said

and welcome to DU.

[Kingofalldems]

23. Rampant on DU during the primaries.

[Flying Squirrel]

25. Your title violates DU's TOS.

No divisive group attacks
Do not smear, insult, vilify, bait, maliciously caricature, or give disrespectful nicknames to any groups of people that are part of the Democratic coalition, or that hold viewpoints commonly held by Democrats, or that support particular Democratic public figures. Do not imply that they are fake Democrats, fake progressives, conservatives, right-wingers, Republicans, or the like.

Why we have this rule: Substantive disagreement on important issues is always welcome on this website, but our members should not be made to feel unwelcome simply because they hold a different point of view. Democratic Underground welcomes all people who are members of the Democratic coalition, including the full range of center-to-left viewpoints and supporters of all Democratic public figures.

Suggesting that many or most DU members who support Bernie are fake Democrats or worse.

Using the disrespectful nickname "bernbots."

If I were to post a similar OP using the term "hillbots" I would be PPR'd in a second.

This is an obvious violation of DU's TOS, and if your OP is allowed to stand (yes, I've alerted) then it is clear that the TOS is being selectively enforced.

[Eliot Rosewater]

45. Nah

[NurseJackie]

54. The OP suggests nothing of the sort.

[philly_bob]

63. I agree with Flying Squirrel. OP is divisive, dehumanizing a broad swath of people as "bots" /nt

[Ninsianna]

134. Um, it's not doing that.

[LexVegas]

68. ....

[Raine]

95. I TOTALLY agree. nt

[seaglass]

101. Love your DU goodbye post from last summer :-) n/t

[betsuni]

106. OMG! "Wolves howling at the door": going to JPR to escape wolves.

"We may not be voting for Hillary." Heh heh heh.

[Flying Squirrel]

118. Thanks for reminding me to update the link to JPR in that post.

The post obviously was written on behalf of a large number of people, most of whom will not be returning. Some of us have stronger stomachs than others.

[seaglass]

120. Good idea. It's the place to go for those that would fit in there. Can't see that there is much

overlap.

[Ninsianna]

135. From what I've seen of that JPR place, it requires a strong stomach indeed.

I thought that level of vile nastiness was a Freeperville specialty, but that place is almost worse.

I hope your stomach settles from that toxic place.

[Flying Squirrel]

136. Uh, sure, whatever. nt

[Ninsianna]

137. I was agreeing with your characterization of that site you've left to come post here.

Surely after the mentioned "goodbye" message, that's why you left, you couldn't stomach a site that celebrated such misogyny, racism and clearly right wing ideas.

Why else would anyone return to a site they made a dramatic exit from?

[Ninsianna]

141. Oh, then why are you back here talking about how people stomaching things?

That site really does celebrate misogyny, the posts there and the vile names used make that quite clear. I don't know the folks you mention, but that last one did send me an unpleasant private message, so if that's the type of thing that goes on there daily, then yes, it is much more than someone with any liberal ideals or sensibilities could stomach.

I see, you are here to come back and bring back from that other place the divisive, toxic nastiness to demonize Democrats and bring to us that special misogyny that is celebrated there and among the RW.

Got it, thanks for telling us exactly what you're about and what your intentions are. It's a shame that that level of toxicity cannot be left in the rightwing bog where it belongs.

[scheming daemons]

104. Since Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat, attacking Bernbots is not an attack on Democrats.

[Flying Squirrel]

117. The TOS specifically mentions Bernie Sanders

Something I'm sure you know.

Don't bash Democratic public figures
Do not post disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks against any Democratic public figures. Do not post anything that could be construed as bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for any Democratic general election candidate, and do not compare any Democratic general election candidate unfavorably to their general election opponent(s).

Why we have this rule: Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders).

[betsuni]

111. "We leave sadly, ... We sincerely wish more of you had not become so blind, deluded, jaded,

fearful, peer-pressured, whatever it was that caused you to support such a flawed individual or candidate for the Democratic Party nominee for president. Mostly, we leave because there's no use even talking to you anymore."

[lapucelle]

143. indeed...

[Ninsianna]

133. That's quite literally the opposite of what the OP is saying.

[concreteblue]

26. Sorry....any use of "Bernbots" is refighting the Primary

And contributes zilch to moving the party forward to victory in 2018. Yes, there are alt-right trolls posing as far-left. There are also far-right trolls posing as Hillary supporters. Get off the identity politics and focus on common ground on the issues that can be used to communicate a winning message.

[LanternWaste]

30. Much as any use of the word "anointed" is half-witted and reveals an absurd bias

Much as any use of the word "anointed" is half-witted and reveals an absurd bias attempting to re-fight the primaries as well. Get off the Sacred Cow and focus on common ground.

(six of one, half a dozen of the other)

[concreteblue]

46. Not sure who you are talking to...

I did not use "anointed" and made no allusion to any such thing, other than replying to the op.....
(On edit): Let me add I think Ms. Harris is great, and is a force to be reckoned with. If more D's exhibited her resolve and spine we would retake the country in a couple of cycles, IMHO.

[Warren DeMontague]

85. Mom!

He started it!

[Akamai]

32. absolutely--we should be focused on issues, not personalities, etc.

[Honeycombe8]

28. I don't care for her...what little I know about her.

And therein lies the rub: she is not well known. Most people in the country have never heard of her. I didn't, until I saw her questioning witnesses at recent hearings. And I didn't like what I saw.

She may have an outstanding background (most national politicians do), she may be intelligent (most national politicians are, having graduated ivy league schools), but I found her manner at the hearings irritating and unpleasant. She grated on my nerves.

However, I haven't seen her a lot, and I haven't heard her discussing things in depth, to see how she discusses things, addresses others, has charisma, etc. So I'll be looking at that.

People who don't like Harris are not trolls, just because they don't agree with your assessment. I bet I could find someone I like a lot who you don't like, and I could easily claim you are a troll, if you don't agree with my assessment. That's the wrong way to approach a disagreement about a possible candidate, IMO.

[LanternWaste]

33. much higher priority on irritating and unpleasant over that of character and policy

I imagine many people place a much higher priority on the merely irritating and unpleasant over that of actual character, substance and policy.

That's the wrong way to approach a possible candidate... IMO.

[Skidmore]

44. Her manner?

Really? That sounds lke the "little lady" snark given by some ofcher GOP colleagues.

[Honeycombe8]

64. You've met people before you just don't like. Their manner grates on your nerves.

That can be male or female. I said "manner." Not "manners" as in etiquette. Manner:

a way in which a thing is done or happens.
"taking notes in an unobtrusive manner"
synonyms: way, fashion, mode, means, method, system, style, approach, technique, procedure, process, methodology, modus operandi, form
"it was dealt with in a very efficient manner"
2.
a person's outward bearing or way of behaving toward others.
"his arrogance and pompous manner"

Definition of manner.

[pnwmom]

93. I thought she was GREAT at the hearings, doing just what she needed to do in the few minutes

they had allotted to her. The witnesses wanted to blab on and on and run out the clock. She kept trying to pin them down. Good for her.

The people I DID find annoying were the Republican men, including John McCain, who worked in tandem to cut her off. Men were allowed to question witnesses like that, but not a strong woman.

It was very much how they had treated Elizabeth Warren.

[Honeycombe8]

108. Just sayin'...I did not agree.

Even when you are of a disadvantaged group, you agree to abide by the rules. The rules are very important in Congress. You can push the boundaries....up to a point.

Maxine Waters is more experienced at this and knows how to push the boundaries, while still basically respecting the rules, IMO. The law is king in our country, and the rules are necessary to ensure the law is obeyed in Congress.

This is one of the problems with Trump, IMO. He doesn't respect anything...rules or laws or people. He operates by his own rules, while having a displeasing and hateful manner about him in doing so.

I judge these things not by whether I agree with what position they hold. I'm speaking of the way the person handles herself or himself and has respect for others and the rules...and in the case of a candidate, whether there is some charisma there. I think some people excuse abrasiveness when they agree with the speaker's position or just like the person.

But I haven't seen Harris much and will pay attention to her in the future. It could be that was a one-time impression that doesn't hold.

[pnwmom]

109. What rule did Harris break when she asked to have a question simply answered -- yes or no?

She broke no rule -- except or the unwritten law that women should always defer to men.

It was McCain who interrupted HER -- and yet she was the one who got scolded.

[Honeycombe8]

110. I'm not going to keep defending my impression of her.

I have my impression. You have yours.

But...if I had that impression, so did others.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't change my impression down the line. But because I didn't like her manner in conducting business, does not mean I am a troll. We all have our likes and dislikes.

[lark]

29. Great point!

We know Russia is still active in trying to hijack our way of life so why wouldn't they still be pushing destructive lies against Democrats?

[David__77]

31. Bernbots! Hilbots! Arghhhhhh

What's with the name calling?

[Warren DeMontague]

40. This again?

[Autumn]

48. Always. nt

[NurseJackie]

49. It's like a grudge that people can't let go of. Sad, isn't it?

I remain hopeful that things will eventually change... especially as we get closer to the 2018 elections and then FORWARD TOGETHER to 2020.

[Autumn]

50. You're right, it's very sad when people cling to the bitterness and divisiveness. nt

[Eliot Rosewater]

51. You mean where we ALL come together and vote for Democrats NO MATTER WHAT

otherwise we shouldnt even BE HERE?

[NurseJackie]

53. ... yes, that. And letting go of old hostilities and resentments and suspicions.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Excellent advice!

I hope the people who need it, hear.

[Warren DeMontague]

59. I want to know what the spooky significance is, of starting a post with "I want"...

Jesus fuck, I DID IT AGAIN!

[lamp_shade]

55. Exactly...

[BeyondGeography]

56. Kamala Fever is silly and counterproductive

She's a prosecutor by trade with minimal legislative and executive experience; when has that ever been a stepping stone to the White House? She's a very promising first-term Senator, and so was Obama when he was elected but the comparisons pretty much end there. Her supporters aren't doing her any favors by pushing her as hard as they are right now. Their arguments basically amount to loyalty oaths; YOU don't like KAMALA!?! Are you even a Democrat!?! There's a thread here like this with over 200 posts and not a single one of them has any links or clips pointing to anything memorable that Sen. Harris has said or done, your OP included. Maybe that explains some of the pushback.

[Caliman73]

66. There is some truth to your statement, however...

She is relatively green, but I would argue that being running the office of the attorney general of the largest and richest state in the union offers some executive experience. She is getting legislative experience now.

That said, it is too early to speculate.

I do strongly disagree that the push back is because of her relative lack of experience. That has not really been evident at all in any of the back and forth on the topic. I actually think that you are one of the first to pose this particular issue and I think that this is a valid point.

I agree that questioning someone's politics and affiliation just because they may not fully support Harris is rash. There is however, a pattern that was pointed out in another thread, where younger, up and coming African American politicians seem to be disproportionately questioned by people who claim to be left leaning Bernie supporters.

Anyone fever is silly. We need not be swept away by emotions but should focus on making a good, sober choice on candidates that will be good leaders and serve their constituencies.

[pnwmom]

89. The poster said that being Attorney General has never been a stepping stone to the Presidency.

She apparently never heard of Bill Clinton, who stepped from Attorney General, to Governor, to President.

She has been Attorney General, and now is Senator. Not that different from Clinton's path so far.

[pnwmom]

81. Kamala Harris was Attorney General of her state. When has that position ever been a "stepping stone"

Last edited Thu Aug 3, 2017, 11:42 PM - Edit history (1)

to the White House?

Ever hear of William Jefferson Clinton?

Her positions as AG in CA, and now as a Senator, are comparable to Clinton's as AG and Governor; except that CA is a much larger state.

[BeyondGeography]

92. Please

Clinton was AG for two years at the beginning of his career. Harris spent 14 years as DA and AG. No comparison.

[pnwmom]

94. Right. Bill Clinton was a boy wonder. She has had much more experience, and in a larger state.

No comparison.

[BeyondGeography]

98. When Bill Clinton was her age

he was finishing up his second term as President and he had been Governor for 12 years. Can we stop comparing their careers now?

[pnwmom]

99. He used the position of Attorney General as a stepping stone to the Presidency.

The person I was responding to says no one ever does that. But Bill Clinton did.

And it is possible that Senator Kamala Harris could, too.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

62. So someone who is a lifelong Democrat --

and lives in SF -- and has experience with Harris up close and person -- and is not a huge fan of hers is inauthentic and most likely a troll. Gotcha ...

[GaryCnf]

65. Exactly

[Caliman73]

70. What'd she get you for Hell Hath?

I'M KIDDING!!!

I agree. There is way too much of this either/or crap going on here lately. You can be a Democrat, a progressive, a person of color, a woman, etc... and not fully support a particular candidate for other reasons.

I think that discussions start around that premise. You can get into what particularly might have happened that lead you to your decision to support or not.

Unfortunately, that is want is lacking in these posts.

[LexVegas]

69. I disagree. Both are. nt

[Caliman73]

71. I wouldn't go that far on any of your claims.

There are reasons that some people might have for not fully supporting a candidate that are personal, or professional, or based on particular policies that they are passionate about.

I do agree that a lot of the attacks expressed recently on DU regarding Harris have been based on faulty information on one particular issue that she supported, and when confronted with the full context of Harris' support for the policy, the goal posts got shifted which is not a sign of a good faith disagreement.

I would also argue that at times Bernie makes himself the problem with his statements. That tweet about "establishment Democrats" was ill defined, ill conceived, and not helpful. There can be discussion about the direction or tone of the party, but to use words like "establishment" without defining who and what "the establishment" is, is irresponsible and it adds fuel to people who are already indiscriminately angry.

[Jim Lane]

72. Be wary of anybody who says, "They're likely a troll."

Feel free to hold whatever opinion of Kamala Harris you want, but it's a huge (indeed, Trumpian) error to believe that no one with a different opinion could possibly be sincere.

I have opinions on many political matters. That wouldn't justify me in concluding that everyone who disagrees with me must be doing so from bad motives, because my position is so obviously right.

BTW, I don't think you're a troll. I think you're sincerely but totally misguided.

[applegrove]

76. +100

[elleng]

77. Thank you. I don't know who they are,

surely don't know any, but it's clear there are lots of trouble-makers around, and guess whose interest THEY represent - certainly not We the People.

[herding cats]

83. All I care about is getting more Dems in every office in 2018.

That's my bottom line. I don't care if they're pure, my first choice, or my last choice.

2018 is a census year, which means a gerrymandering year. Believe it it or not we're defending more seats than they are this round. Way more. This could be an end game for my entire generation.

I learned my lessons the hard way already, and I'll never make the same mistakes again.

A lot of the people fighting here are much older than I am and it blows my mind they've not learned the same lessons.

[BainsBane]

88. I think Bernie has been a vehicle

that some have used to advance a pernicious agenda of opposition to women and people of color. I do wish Bernie would take a stand against it. I think he said something over a year ago, but it needs saying again.

[lunasun]

103. He has had time to talk about how bad the Democratic Party is but not the terrible stuff the

hard core section of his prior base purports.
I am talking bobs not dems who lean pro
One Bbro at work of course thinking POC were out of ear shot talking to a possible recruit about how dems can't go far with feminazis and the violent BLM taking over the party.
Surprised we didn't hear Tom Perez crap in the conversation too but this leads to an observation.

I noticed they all seem to have the same talking points. Russia is a conspiracy theory and /or not important right now or for nstance why all the concern about a few AA candidates etc. How have these opinions been influenced I don't know I am out of thier loop. But Sanders put down of Dems doesn't help although I don't think he is the generator of a lot of the spiel . How and where the same think is formed I have no clue on the movements ideology but a movement does exist IMO
And are not just all fake alt right trolls although some of them may influence that type of bob

Sorry I really don't think these hard core types will ever vote mainstream dem party no matter what Sanders proclaims and they shouldn't be catered to . They get high on thinking revolution or take over, not unity IMO

[BainsBane]

105. The uniformity of the script is unmistakable

And what you describe is stuff I've seen a lot of. It is reprehensible.
And it also explains why so many of them wanted Trump to win.

[lunasun]

107. Some parts of Trump must appeal to them .look they claim to be left of the mainstream Dems

couldn't vote for evil Hillary and yes are certainly far up from trump voters in brains
A real mixed bag that buy in sync to CTs, but seem progressive in some ways yet use Rush Limbaugh type language about "violent" BLM , extreme feminazis

[mythology]

90. Name calling is also part of the problem

It's really not helpful, nor does it make your point more or less correct.

[DoodAbides]

96. I think Bernie Sanders is a big part of the problem. nt

[Expecting Rain]

112. The problem is populism

Once movements turn to scapegoating and encouraging political anger as a means to power, the rationality that's the bedrock of liberalism gets displaced with irrational rage.

Populists may have different bases of support and different classes of villains to blame for societies problems, but the end result is anti-liberal whether the populism is a right wing variation, or a left wing one.

Populism is a bad path.

[standingtall]

114. Populism isn't bad

Populism is a message that appeals to the common people. Populism is not anti-liberal it's just that the modern media doesn't know what the word populism actually means. There is no such thing as right wing populism tax cuts for the rich and ripping healthcare away from poor people is not a populist message.

[Expecting Rain]

115. When in human history has Populism turned out well when Populist movements have taken power?

Populism has spilled blood and produced human misery around the globe.

If you don't think there have been right-wing populists movements (in addition to left-wing ones), you are not a student of history.

Both streams have catastrophic histories. Embracing demogoguery isn't the answer.

[standingtall]

116. The new deal was a populist movement

Again the word populist means a message that appeals to the common people. In modern American politics there is no such thing as right wing populism. Sure there have been periods in history were the common people were conditioned to believe morally bankrupt ideas, but I am talking about modern American politics.

There is no brand of politics that anger doesn't play a role nor can there be. The problem isn't populism. They problem is the politics of purity.

[Expecting Rain]

121. No, the New Deal wasn't a populist movement

FDR was a political opponent of populism and nativism. Huey Long was a populist and FDR considered Long one of the most dangerous men in politics.

The New Deal was based on promoting liberalism and did not involve scapegoating particular groups as the source of all of America's problems.

FDR did not engage in class warfare or attempt to amplify rage, anger, and fear the way populist demagogues always do. "Nothing to fear but fear itself," and all that.

FDR was also an internationalist, not a nativist "Americ Firster."

The goals of the New Deal was to alleviate misery while saving capitalist free enterprise through reform. This is distinctly different that populism.

Antithetical in fact to today's left-wing American populism.

There certainly is right-wing populism in the United States. Trump, the Tea Party, Pat Buchanan, and George Wallace are a few right-wing populists that spring to mind.

[standingtall]

122. Defintion of populism is a message that appeals to the common people

so yes FDR was a populist. FDR strengthened labor rights and introduced social safety nets. Many on the right would consider that class warfare.

Trump is not a populist and that is evident by the fact he lost the popular vote by almost 3 million. The Tea Party and Pat Buchanan are also not populist to call them populist is simply a misuse of the word.

[Expecting Rain]

123. No, that is not the way political science uses the term.

If one going to speak about political ideologies, one needs to move past 2nd-grade dictionary "definitions."

You don't seem to understand the meaning of the term. The Tea Party, Trump, Pat Buchanan, and the Nazis, were all populists.

It is a horrid ideology.

[standingtall]

124. I value linguistics over how poitical science choses to use the term

which just basically means make the word mean whatever we want it too and apply to whoever or whatever ideology you don't like.

I will stick with the actual definition which is a message that appeals to the common people.

[Expecting Rain]

125. No, it involved an attack on so-called "elites" in the name of "common people"...

...after which then the populist demogogue sells the "people" out every time.

The "dictatorship of the proletariat" is a perfect example.

That's why FDR opposed populism. He knew populism is a vile ideology.

[lapucelle]

142. Because "actual definitions" actually differ,

I think we're crossing over from mere linguistics into semantics, semiotics, and messaging.

populist:
A member of a political party claiming to represent the common people.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/populist

A person, especially a politician, who strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups. (OED)
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/populist

populism:
"A political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups."

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2016/12/economist-explains-18

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/02/what-is-populist-trump/516525/

[philly_bob]

149. This is a VERY interesting subthread and could be promoted. /nt

[Orsino]

119. Trolls and bots stir the shit.

There are no doubt many actual BOBing BernieBros (TM) left over from last year, but it's really hard to identify a given Internet poster as one, or as a live human being.

[Flying Squirrel]

140. Also a violation of DU's Terms of Service.

No divisive group attacks
Do not smear, insult, vilify, bait, maliciously caricature, or give disrespectful nicknames to any groups of people that are part of the Democratic coalition, or that hold viewpoints commonly held by Democrats, or that support particular Democratic public figures. Do not imply that they are fake Democrats, fake progressives, conservatives, right-wingers, Republicans, or the like.

Why we have this rule: Substantive disagreement on important issues is always welcome on this website, but our members should not be made to feel unwelcome simply because they hold a different point of view. Democratic Underground welcomes all people who are members of the Democratic coalition, including the full range of center-to-left viewpoints and supporters of all Democratic public figures.

Don't bash Democratic public figures
Do not post disrespectful nicknames, insults, or highly inflammatory attacks against any Democratic public figures. Do not post anything that could be construed as bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for any Democratic general election candidate, and do not compare any Democratic general election candidate unfavorably to their general election opponent(s).

Why we have this rule: Our forum members support and admire a wide variety of Democratic politicians and public figures. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but our members don't expect to see Democrats viciously denigrated on this website. This rule also applies to Independents who align themselves with Democrats (eg: Bernie Sanders).

Don't keep fighting the last Democratic presidential primary
Regardless of whether you supported a winning candidate or a losing candidate, do not prolong the agony of the last Democratic presidential primary by continuing to pick fights, place blame, tear down former primary candidates, bait former supporters, or do anything else to pour salt on old wounds.

Why we have this rule: Most of our members want this to be forward-looking, friendly community that is focused on creating a better future for our country. Continuing to rehash old fights that have already been resolved is divisive and counter-productive.

[emulatorloo]

144. OP is about Bernie or Busters and alt-right Trolls pretending to support Bernie. You aren't either.

This thread is not about you or DU Bernie supporters like you and me and most of us here.

I do not know why you think this OP is about you, because it isn't.

However these twitterverse and Reddit jerks need to be called out by genuine Bernie supporters like you.

They don't 'support' Bernie with this bullshit, they detract from him.

As to the TOS rule on not refighting the 2016 Primary, doesn't apply. Harris did not run in the 2016, nor did the twitterati.

[LWolf]

150. This is a perfect example

of what divided the party and lost the GE in '16, and continues to grow that deep and wide schism today, pushing the party toward more losses.

Good job.

[R B Garr]

152. Just saw on AMJoy that there was a 5300% increase on Russian bot and troll

activity under the hashtag #FireMcMaster. The alt-right is also after McMaster for various reasons. This is the reality, and so is this attack on Kamala Harris.

This kind of continued denial of the underlying causes of the divisiveness stirred up in 2016 is also pushing the party towards more losses. Prolonged smearing of our candidates is just not a good idea.

[emulatorloo]

153. The insistence on defending bots, alt-right trolls posing as Sanders supporters, and delusional

BernieorBusters is astounding to me.

Sanders supporters at DU ARE NOT bots, alt right, or delusional BernieOrBusters.

Yet in this thread, many seem to believe the OP is directed at genuine Sanders supporters at DU.

It isn't.

We all need to push back on the bots, alt-right trolls, and delusional BernieorBusters. For one thing they detract from Sander's policy proposals.

[TheDebbieDee]

154. I believe you are right! The BernieBots are either alt.right trolls

or Russian trolls... Or, perhaps a mixture of both working independently to achieve the same goal: Faction the Democratic Party!