I'm going to state an unpopular view here: Romney and McCain are decent men

[scheming daemons]

Their political views were (and are) wrong. I disagree with each on 99% of their policy agendas.

But they weren't bad people with evil in their hearts.

They lost the Presidential races simply because they were running against a better candidate in Barack Obama.

Either of them would've been OK as President following Obama's 8 years. We would've had policy battles with them, but we never would have had to worry about them hiring *ACTUAL* Nazis, or defending *ACTUAL* White Supremacists, of actually colluding with a foreign enemy.

During the election campaigns of 2008 and 2012, we portrayed them as unacceptable choices, because that's what happens in a campaign that's a binary choice. You have to demonize your opponent.

But both men are patriots, and if either had become President, the Republic would've been OK. We'd not be as far along on some things as we'd want to be, but we wouldn't be where we are today.

They are men of good will, who we disagreed with on policy.

But they aren't monsters. Today, we have a monster in the White House.

I'd be able to sleep at night if Mitt Romney was my President right now. I'd probably be fighting against his tax cut policies and other ways he'd be helping the richest of the rich.... but I wouldn't be seeing the very fabric of our nation being ripped to shreds in front of the world. I wouldn't be worried about bumbling into World War III. I wouldn't be worried that Russia had komromat on our President.

I'm not sorry I voted against either man, because Barack Obama was a superior candidate in every possible way.

But I'm sorry that neither man was the GOP nominee in 2016. I would've still voted for Hillary, but at least I wouldn't be watching our nation collapse in front of my eyes if they would've defeated her.

Both men are key to the resistance right now. Both men are calling Trump out by name. Both men are patriots. And I gladly welcome both men into the Resistance.

[SHRED]

1. Oh yeah

Did they vote for trump?

[scheming daemons]

2. Romney has explicitly stated that he did NOT vote for Trump.

McCain never has stated how he voted.

[yardwork]

10. Romney interviewed for the job of Secretary of State under Trump.

[scheming daemons]

14. Yes... to mitigate the disaster that Trump represents.

I'd have taken the S.o.S. job if I had a chance... just to mitigate the damage this President is doing.

[yardwork]

49. I doubt that was Romney's reason.

[bettyellen]

82. I've got such mixed feeling about taking the positions under him.../

I'd like to think some will be witnesses for the prosecution.

[sweetloukillbot]

37. On McCain

I had a friend who was close with McCain during the 2000 run. He said explicitly that there was no way McCain would have voted for Bush in 2004 - he would have voted for Kerry. He never would have advertised it, but when it came down to it that's how he would cast his vote.

[Siwsan]

3. I can agree about Romney, for the most part. McCain is just more decent than most GOP

And that's a low bar.

[scheming daemons]

5. "more decent than most GOP" is who we need on our side in order to win

[Siwsan]

16. Oh, absolutely I agree with you, on that.

It would be nice if he could 'inspire' more to break ranks. Only time will tell.

[NightWatcher]

4. trump's lowering of the bar doesn't suddenly make them acceptable, just a little more preferable

Sure, we'd take almost anyone now.

[scheming daemons]

9. That's exactly my point. At least the Republic would survive their 4 years.

I'm not sure we survive Trump if we don't get him out of office soon.

[Blaukraut]

6. Decency has a low bar these days

All it takes anymore is not to say anything too offensive in public. Both men would have furthred the republican agenda while in office, and that agenda is anything but decent.

[scheming daemons]

11. Would the US have survived their time in office? Yes.

I know it is a low bar.... but neither man would be coddling Nazis.

[DinahMoeHum]

7. Sorry, but McCain and Romney compromised themselves. . .

. . .too many times and flirted with the devil, hoping they wouldn't get singed.

Well, now, they've been singed. . .and I don't feel schadenfreude anymore. Just a bit sad
for them now.

[yardwork]

8. I disagree that the country would have been ok if they had become president.

The laws and policies that Republicans pass hurt this country. Republicans are destroying this country. Republican presidents have not been ok for this country in many decades.

There's no need to either demonize or glorify McCain and Romney and numerous other Republicans. Some of them are decent people but their platform is not decent, their party is not decent. It is not ok.

[Bluepinky]

44. I agree with you completely.

Other Republicans aren't as bad as Trump, but the Republican platform stinks, and any Republican in office would have to pass the right-wing agenda: minimize health care for the poor, gut public education, expand fossil fuel use, eliminate environmental and other regulations, further restrict access to contraception and abortion, ease restrictions on financial institutions, etc. The Republican agenda is not okay, and the party is controlled by wealthy corporate backers.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

12. Meh.... both were perfectly OK aligning with bigots when it served their purposes. Plus

now that we actually ended up with "president" Palin. It makes me question McCain even more. Would Romney be talking shit if he had gotten Tillerson's gig? Doubt it.

[scheming daemons]

13. Romney talked shit during the campaign, and did NOT vote for Trump.

99% of his policy views are wrong..... but he's a patriot.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

19. Then he went groveling for a job. I don't know what exactly is that

you're denying here. Last time I checked the heart pumps blood through the body. As to what is in their minds nor you nor I gave a goddamn clue. Their collective actions do tell us plenty. The fact that a kick in the stomach is preferable to a kick in the balls. Doesn't make the former an acceptable choice.

[scheming daemons]

21. Would you feel better about NK if Romney was S.o.S. instead of Tillerson?

I would.

The only way to save us from this President is for people ON THE INSIDE to prevent the worst of his impulses from coming true.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

26. No. Because in the end neither of these 2 clowns would really be in charge. Bottom

line, the orangutan in chief would call the shots. You're praising a dope without one principled bone in his body who said. "Hey look at this racist fuck!..... Oh you wanna offer me a job? I'm all ears.".

[MrsCoffee]

29. Romney was raised as a member of a racist cult.

I appreciate his comments, but I don't appreciate much else about him or his politics.

[JI7]

40. Romney was not raised to be racist by his parents. Is harry reid racist ?

[MrsCoffee]

42. I lived in Utah for 5 years.

I have Mormon family. They all voted for Trump.

[Gothmog]

15. There are republicans who are decent human beings

I like Romney and McCain but would never vote for them

[scheming daemons]

18. Neither would I.

But if either man had won the White House, we wouldn't be worried about the end of the Republic.

[dalton99a]

17. True that they are not monsters like Trump

And Trump represents an actual existential threat. I welcome ammunition from all quarters.

[sinkingfeeling]

20. I agree. Don't think either is evil, but extremely misguided on some issues.

[Not Ruth]

22. GOP is the same as Nazi

There is no difference

[EX500rider]

50. Really?

When they start up death factories to kill as many undesirables as possible let me know.

[Not Ruth]

68. There were 12 years when the Nazi party existed and there were no concentration camps

The Nazis were still Nazis

[EX500rider]

69. Actually, no.

The first Nazi camps were erected in Germany in March 1933 immediately after Hitler became Chancellor and his Nazi Party was given control of the police by Reich Interior Minister Wilhelm Frick and Prussian Acting Interior Minister Hermann Göring.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps

[Not Ruth]

71. Nazi party started in 1920, with Hitler the head in 1921

[EX500rider]

83. But they didn't get into power until 1933.

They were a small fringe party at first and certainly couldn't start opening concentration camps till they were in power

[steve2470]

72. come on, we don't need this kind of language here

I'm not fond of the GOP either but the Nazis were far worse and NOT the same as them.

[True Dough]

80. Agreed. This is hyperbole

And it's not helpful to generalize all GOP supporters as Nazis. The morons marching with the tiki torches? Sure, call them Nazis or clansmen. But trying to broaden that to cover all Republicans is disingenuous.

[Squinch]

23. We all knew who Trump(R) was a long time ago, and I didn't see either one yelling it from

the rooftops before the election, and McCain voted for him.

I'm glad they have found their line that they won't cross, but let's face it, that line is pretty much in Hell's front hall.

I'm grateful for their words about the Nazis though.

[scheming daemons]

28. Actually, Romney *WAS* yelling it from the rooftops before the election

[Squinch]

38. He was making polite statements of disagreement. It was something, but to me it's not

enough to qualify as a full throated opposition and acknowledgment of his disgustingness.

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. I don't disagree at all

I didn't want either of them to win, but I had no doubt that they were 1) qualified for the job and 2) people who cared about the Republic.

[tblue37]

25. No. Like other Repubs in power, they have long supported and still do support

Last edited Wed Aug 16, 2017, 05:22 PM - Edit history (1)

the destructive GOP agenda. They, and other Repubs, have gone along with the Southern Strategy, with voter suppression, with gerrymandering --all because power and the wealth and status it brings are all they really care about.

Trump is just embarrassing people like them because he is openly, gleefully shouting out in public what the GOP wanted to keep on the down low. It's like Ryan reminding his gang of GOP reps that the truth about the Russian ownership of Trump and of certain other GOP office holders needed to be kept in the GOP "family."

[dgibby]

84. WORD!

Couldn't agree more. You nailed it!

[treestar]

27. I may never forgive Republicans

for letting the Orange Toxin become their candidate. They should have rallied behind Mittens or somebody like that. Even Carnival Cruz. Any of them.

[DLevine]

30. A decent man or woman would be calling for Trump's impeachment.

A patriot would call for Trump's impeachment.

They are not patriots or decent.

[Bettie]

31. They are better than the orange nightmare that

squats in the White House now.

Romney is better than the ones currently in congress, but that's a pretty low bar.

McCain is an opportunist. I used to think he was decent, but I doubt that these days.

I don't think either of them would openly support actual nazis though.

It isn't hard to be better than Trump and his inner circle.

[Cirque du So-What]

32. Decent - only in comparison to Cheat-O Benito

They're still tools in my book.

[Orsino]

33. They're on the record signing onto a whole lot of evil shit.

That either might be polite and personable in private life is irrelevant to their crimes. We're unlikely to meet them, much less spend significant time with them.

[joeybee12]

34. All I'll say is that you can work with them on some issues

Decent people for Repukes.

[Mrs. Overall]

35. Trump has given us a new measuring stick by which to compare politicians--

Next to trump, yes, Romney and McCain are decent men (even though I disagree with many of their policies and views).

Next to trump, even George W. Bush seems part way decent. And, I hate to say it, even Cheney does not appear as awful as cinnamon hitler.

[AlexSFCA]

36. I think Romney is better than McCain, IMO (by a long shot)

But if most republicans would be like them, trump would have never happened.

[Hoyt]

39. I'd sure rather have Romney or McCain in office right now.

[JI7]

41. I agree

[LonePirate]

45. Unless they support his impeachment and removal, they are not decent men.

You're against the Nazis or you support them. There is no middle ground here.

[JonLP24]

46. McCain often disappoints

Whenever I feel myself starting to like him he then goes and does something that blows it. Like other posters said they set a very low bar and we shouldn't go overboard praising them because we'd be getting tax breaks for the rich, warmongering (especially with McCain), etc. Even Bush I criticized David Duke, not a very hard thing to do.

[First Speaker]

47. If the Republic is going to survive, we'll need people like Romney and McCain...

...to stand with us when the moment is ripe. We may be facing an American version of the Revolution of 1688, which was supported by Whigs and Tories--a classic, maybe *the* classic, "conservative" revolution. For all their sins, if decent Republicans--and there are many, I know a lot of them--join with us at the right moment, I won't care if they take some of the credit. All that matters is ending the nightmare...

[scheming daemons]

52. Exactly. If Trump is going to go down, it will take Republican help.

[jalan48]

48. It looks like the forces behind Trump have achieved their goal of pushing the political

spectrum to the extreme right. In 2020 we could well have a new Republican President like Cruz, Rubio, Romney because they are "moderates" now.

[get the red out]

51. I agree with you

There is a huge difference between policy disagreements and resisting a madman.

[SweetieD]

53. Romney I think is just brainwashed. But McCain I don't think is a good person at all. He is a

master manipulator.

[Binkie The Clown]

54. Fiction writiers have a device for making bad people look good in a novel.

They place them next to horrific people. We like Jamie Lanister because he was set side by side with Joffrey. We even empathized with Theon Greyjoy when he was being tortured by Ramsey the Bastard of Bolton.

But judged on an absolute scale, like Jamie and Theon, all Republicans (with possible rare exceptions) are bad people. Sure, McCain and Romney look good when you set them beside Trump, and Ryan, and McTurtle. But when you set them next to Obama, either Clinton, Howard Dean, and yes, even Bernie Sanders, they look like pretty damn miserable excuses for human beings.

[scheming daemons]

55. I don't disagree at all.

But replacing Trump with any of them would have us in a better place than we are now.

[Binkie The Clown]

57. Very true. Replacing an insane evil person with a merely evil person is an "improvement". n/t

[nini]

56. We need both of them and many others to scream at the top of their lungs to stop Trump

They can play a very important role in fixing this country NOW - we need them.

[LanternWaste]

58. Trump has compelled many of us to lower the standards of what we consider decent

Seems as though it's happened. Trump has compelled many of us to lower the standards of what we consider decent. By the end of his term, everyone other than actual WW2 SS fighters themselves will be considered 'decent.'

[gopiscrap]

59. if they are decent men, then during the election cycle they would have said:

trump is a racist pig, for the sake of the nation, please don't vote for him!

[Iggo]

60. Yeah, no.

They both strive to fuck over decent people.

Fuck those motherfuckers.

They're the reason we have an actual Russian agent and a literal Nazi sympathizer as President of The United States.

Fuck them. Fuck them. Fuck them.

:middlefinger:

[Jakes Progress]

61. Yeah. Like all those good and decent people

that trump said were marching with he nazis in C-ville.

I get your point. But I believe you overstate their decency. If they were decent, or patriots, they would have campaigned for Hillary against trump. You say that having them in the WH would be better than having trump, so why couldn't they say that having Hillary in the WH would be better than trump? If they cared about their country, they would be working to get not just trump, but the whole axis of his cabinet (including pence) out of office.

But their decency comes up short, their patriotism meets its limit, when it comes to their political careers.

Not all that decent. Very far from patriotic.

[Azathoth]

62. McCain is a decent if unstable guy. Romney is a lizard who will say *anything*

Romney denounced Trump during the campaign (when it seemed like Trump would lose), then slithered into Trump Tower the week after the election and sucked Donny's toes in a bid to get a cabinet appointment, and now he's back to denouncing Trump for siding with nazis.

Romney gives opportunism a bad name.

[workinclasszero]

63. Until they call for Trump's impeachment

They are backing his white power KKK views totally.

Talk is cheap, do something about it republicans.

[oswaldactedalone]

64. No,

2 indecent men who said something decent.

[Dreamer Tatum]

65. I find it hilarious

that the prevailing opinion seems to be that unless Trump is impeached in the next 30 minutes by unanimous vote, anyone in a position to vote for impeachment is a useless piece of shit.

If you want what you want, you have to not be a crybaby and accept the actual process to make it happen. Otherwise, you're just a bullshitter.

[Aristus]

66. The GOP keeps putting up worse and worse candidates in an effort to rehabilitate their previous

bad Presidents.

Compared to Trump, Nixon and George W. Bush don't look nearly so bad. Which is why we need to remember exactly how awful Nixon and Bush were, so at least we on the left won't help to normalize the Republican Party's squalid and shit-tastic Presidential hopefuls.

[krawhitham]

67. They both pandered to racist groups when they ran for President

If you support Racists you are a Racist, NO MIDDLE GROUND

[Retrograde]

74. It's the only way they win elections now

The Republican party has been catering to the far right since Nixon. As the population of the US shifts and becomes more diverse -and consequently less European - the only way they are going to keep office is by getting the far-right votes, so they pander to them.

It will take very brave Republicans to take a stand and rebuild the party of Lincoln as a party for all Americans, knowing that it's going to cost them a few election cycles. And I don't see any of the current ones - and that includes Romney and McCain - willing to take the necessary steps.

[Caliman73]

70. Relative to Trump, yes. On their own merits? Up for debate.

The two men have their share of behaviors that would cast doubt on the idea that they are decent.

I would say that they are "reasonable" or "conventional" in that, they are not completely repugnant or irredeemable the way Trump is. That however, is a low bar. A bar that many current Republican politicians share with Trump unfortunately but we are talking about a person's character, behaviors, and attitudes when we are talking about decency.

To your last point, Sure. They can jump on the bandwagon of pressuring Trump to step down, but as soon as he does, they go back to the shit list.

[JCanete]

73. I think they are saner men. I've seen McCain's conscience tug at him more than once, but at the end

of the day, he usually just caves into what his party leaders and probably, his donors, want. If decency is having grief and still doing the wrong thing, then sure, they are decent men. But even that kind of decency only extends so far...making jokes about bombing Iran without irony only happens when there are certain lives you can divest from, that don't trigger your empathy.


Their resistance now is needed, but it isn't as if there's no political calculation here. Its not entirely altruistic.

[Ken Burch]

75. I'll say the same thing for Gerald Ford-the last GOP president never to pander to white backlash.

In fact, given the narrow margin in '76, I'd argue that if Ford had only said, in his pardon speech, something along the lines of "look, the bastard wouldn't LEAVE unless I pardoned him-and in taking the pardon, he admitted guilt", he'd have won a term in his own right-which would probably have helped our party in the long-term.

Here's why I think that:

If Ford had been elected in '76, the GOP would have been in the White House when the second oil crisis, the late 70s recession and the Iranian and Sandinista revolutions took place-so it would have been them taking the brunt of public anger rather than us. The deeper losses the GOP would have suffered in the mid-terms would have given Dems a veto-proof majority to pass legislation AND perhaps even send a direct presidential elections amendment to the states. Further Democratic gains in state legislatures in '78 and '80 would almost certainly have led to passage of the ERA.

Reagan probably wouldn't ever have run, and we'd likely have won in 1980 and 1984 on solidly progressive platforms.

The Third Republican Ascendancy would have been stopped before it could start.

[atreides1]

76. No!

Romney and McCain are CAPABLE of being decent men!

[BamaRefugee]

77. John McCain is the biggest fake in history. Watch what he does, NOT WHAT HE SAYS.

His healthcare vote was just revenge against Trump, had nothing to do with his filthy conscience.

[needledriver]

78. I'll give you a pass on McCain

But what Romney did to his dog is a deal breaker.

[Maeve]

79. Unfortunately, they don't let their decency stand in the way of getting ahead

A claim I've heard of Kasich as well...

Both are safe, with no elections to win, nothing much to lose by being decent. It's easy to do the right thing if it doesn't cost you anything. I'm sorry to say it, but I think it's true.

[Hekate]

81. Thank you

[Bleacher Creature]

85. I've heard that McCain is kind of a jerk. I will, however, add someone way more controversial.

George W. Bush.

He will always be the worst President ever (Trump is in his own category as his awfulness is on a completely different level). I also will always consider him to be a dolt, and his cluelessness and eagerness to be a lapdog for Cheney and Co. will be a badge of shame that he can never erase as it resulted in the deaths of thousands.

That said, he seems to have turned into a decent guy at the end, far better than his days of being a spoiled prep school jerk and an obnoxious alcoholic. People around him now seem to legitimately enjoy being around him (seeing him and Michelle Obama is priceless).



Again, I'll never forget the hatred I had of him for 8 years, but he's now an angel compared to Trump.

[dgibby]

86. They may not have hired Nazis or White Supremacists,

but that certainly makes them decent or qualified to be POTUS, although they would be better that Trump. Hell, I'd be better than Trump.

Romney lost me when he tied his dog's kennel to the top of the family station wagon. Poor dog was so scared he had massive diarrhea. Anyone who would mistreat a family pet is not trustworthy in my book.

McCain is even worse. His nickname at the Naval Academy was McNasty. He was a legacy appt-only got in because his daddy and granddaddy were ADMS. He was graduated 5th from last in his class, and should have never been allowed to board a plane, much less fly one. He managed to crash 5 planes, including the one that went down in 'Nam.

I was a Navy Nurse, stationed at NRMC, Jacksonville, Fla., when he was there as a patient after being released from POW status. I remember a lot of us crying tears of joy that he and other POW's were released.

My tears for him dried up when he divorced his first wife, Carol, who had stood by him all those years he was a POW. She had been in a horrible auto accident, and as a result, was disabled. It didn't take him long to dump her and marry Cindy and her money.

If that wasn't enough to turn my stomach, he actively fought against looking for anymore POWs/MIAs. What the hell kind of "decent" man would do that? And if that wasn't enough, his involvement in the Keating mess was just the icing on the cake.

Personally, I have no use for either of them. In addition to their personal shortcomings, they have both supported the ReThuglian platform, and we all know that's a death sentence for the rest of us who are not in the top 1%.

[elfin]

87. I never disliked either of them

McCain lost me with foisting Palin on us. Plus his political stands are usually very very wrong -- but while he disappoints me regularly, I just don't hate hm.

Always thought of Romney as a pretty decent guy - just very out of touch and revealing a craven hunger for the office causing him to stray from and and even denounce previous sane and pragmatic decisions such as Romneycare.

[WhiteTara]

88. They're great guys unless

you remember what they have done to get where they are. They may not be straight up Nazis, but they are not good guys.