A question for DU grammarians.

[brush]

We hear many pundits use the phrase "that begs the question" when they really mean "that raises the question".

Well, my question is when someone correctly uses the term "that begs the question" because someone has made a conclusion based on a premise that lacks support, how did calling someone on that evolve into a somewhat unclear phrase like "begs the question" instead of a straight forward "your conclusion lacks support" or "back up your assumption"?

[Binkie The Clown]

1. Natural languages are inherently irrational.

Why, when you sit on the crapper, do you take a shit? You're not taking anything. You're eliminating something, or giving something, but then "giving a shit" doesn't literally mean giving feces, or giving anything for that matter.

Why is that when a house burns up, that means the same as when a house burns down? Aren't "up" and "down" opposites?

How come "awful" used to mean "wonderful; awe-inspiring" and now means the opposite?

And what does "how come" even mean?

The exception proves the rule, because "prove" used to mean "put to the test", as in 90 proof (tested alcohol content) booze.

And what's up with "pea"? The word "pease" was singular for a bulk food item, just like "oats" or "barley", and some fool who didn't know any better thought "pease" was "peas" and jumped to the wrong conclusion that "pea" was the singular of the bulk food item "pease", as in "pease porridge hot", or "pease in a pod". We don't say give me an oat if we want single grain or oats, or give me a barl if we want a single grain of barley, or give me a shug if we want a single grain of sugar. Why, then, do we say "give me a pea"? It makes no sense.

[Glorfindel]

2. Our British cousins generally say, "Have a look at this," instead of "Take a look at this"

I think our use of "cherry" had a similar history to "pease." The French "cerise" was heard as "cherries" and voila! "cherry" was born!

[Binkie The Clown]

6. Tomatoes are "love apples" by way of "Apples of the moor", which was taken by some to be French. n/t

[trof]

11. Apples a la moor...a lamour. Yeah, I get that.

And then there's earth apples, pommes de terre.
It's weird.

[tblue37]

9. The dark meaning of "awful" evolved from the meaning of "awe": holy dread/terror. nt

[Binkie The Clown]

10. Like "godfearing". Gods and governemnts that you have to fear are lousy gods and governements. n/t

[trof]

12. And, at least in New England, 'wicked' is a superlative.

The lobstuh was wicked good.

[eppur_se_muova]

3. It's usually used to mean that one question has been answered in a way that only raises another ...

Lately, people have been using it more loosely. The original meaning was even narrower ...

To beg the question is to assume the conclusion of an argument. It is a type of circular reasoning and an informal fallacy, in which an arguer makes an argument that requires the desired conclusion to be true . This often occurs in an indirect way such that the fallacy's presence is hidden or at least not easily apparent.[1]

The term "begging the question", as it is usually phrased, originated in the 16th century as a mistranslation of the Latin petitio principii, which actually translates to "assuming the initial point".[2] In modern vernacular usage, "to beg the question" frequently[3] appears to mean "to raise the question" (as in, "This begs the question, whether...&quot or "to dodge a question".[2] In contexts that demand strict adherence to a technical definition of the term, many consider these usages incorrect.[4]

lots more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

[SethH]

4. the wrong meaning seems more correct than the correct meaning

but it's not.

[frazzled]

5. From the NYT

A Phrase to Watch

Not long ago, I gently noted (again) our frequent misuse of the phrase “beg the question.” I pointed out that in precise usage, it does not mean “to raise the question” or “to beg that the question be asked” or even “to evade the question.” Rather, it refers to a circular argument; it means “to use an argument that assumes as proved the very thing one is trying to prove.”

...

Instead, I’ll try to clarify the meaning with a pair of made-up examples. Imagine that we’re discussing Lindsay Lohan.

YOU: I can’t understand why the news media give so much coverage to Lindsay Lohan. It’s ridiculous. She’s not that important or newsworthy.

ME: What? Of course she’s important and newsworthy! Lindsay Lohan is a big deal. Why, just look at the newsstand. People magazine, The Post, you name it. She’s everywhere.

YOU: That begs the question.

ME: Huh?

Your use of the phrase is correct. In arguing that Lindsay is important enough to merit heavy news coverage, I cite as evidence the fact that she gets heavy news coverage. It’s a circular argument that begs the question.

https://afterdeadline.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/begging-the-question-again/?_r=0

Technically, "begging the question" is "Any form of argument where the conclusion is assumed in one of the premises." But in general usage, it often is used (perhaps incorrectly) to mean evading the question (perhaps by answering something that is not raised in the question).

[Binkie The Clown]

7. In the final analysis there are only two constants in language:

1. Languages are always changing.
2. The older generation is always calling the changes "wrong".

And for the record, it's not a grammarian you need, but an etymologist.

[tblue37]

8. My article on "begging the question" :

http://grammartips.homestead.com/begging.html

"What Does "Begging the Question" Really Mean? "

The problem comes from a misapprehension of the Latin term for the fallacy:

petitio principii, which means to assume the initial point.

[unblock]

13. "Begs the question" in its original meaning, *didn't* evolve.

The meaning of assuming the conclusion goes back to Aristotle. The "question" meant the conclusion or proposition that one debater was trying to prove or establish, and asking or "begging" the question meant simply using the conclusion as a premise of a question or to "prove" that same conclusion.

This meaning essentially didn't evolve at all, and in fact that may relate to the modern misusage. The phrase is a bit archaic but is taught in school as part of sophisticated logic and reasoning.

So when people want to use the common phrase "raises the question" for the very different meaning of reaching one conclusion (properly) only to open up a new issue, sometimes they try to raise the sophistication level by reaching for that similar phrase they learned in school.

So they misuse "begs the question" for a situation to which it doesn't relate at all.

That said, language evolves, sometimes through exactly this sort of misuse. At some point, the modern "misusage" will likely be considered to be a "correct" idiom. It's so common, we may already be there.

[6000eliot]

14. More a question for logicians than grammarians.

It means that you are taking your point for granted as already having been proven.

[muriel_volestrangler]

15. How did it evolve like that? Probably because the most common meaning of "beg" is "ask for"

So when people heard "that begs the question", many just assumed that means "that asks for the question" or "that asks the question" - so it seems like "then the following is a question that should be asked:".

There's a similar problem with "the exception that proves the rule"; this does not mean "to show the rule is true" - the primary meaning of 'prove' - but "to test the rule". You can see that meaning in "proving ground", for instance - this is where the military test their weapons, not where they show them to be real, or true etc. But many people use "proves the rule" as if it is saying "this exception shows that my rule must be true, because it isn't always".