General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI will not forgive
I cannot forgive. It's been nearly 10 months since the election, and the wounds haven't healed. They've only gotten worse. They've been ripped open by Tiki torch mobs, by Trump's defense of them, and his never ending narcissism. I find myself more angry now than I was in November. It's an anger of pain, of torment over what has befallen our nation. It's an anger at injustice, the injustice of the Trump administration and the injustice of the lies and smears against Clinton, and the willful ignorance of those who spread them.
I will not forgive Trump voters. I will not forgive the people who spread and continue to spread Kremlin propaganda, whether it was targeted at the right or potential Democratic voters. I will not forgive my uncle who voted for Gary Johnson. I will not forgive Stein voters, write-in-voters, or all around rat fuckers. I will not forgive the people who spread lies about Hillary Clinton and in so doing ensured the country would fall into the hands of a White Nationalist, a Nazi enabler, and a fascist.
In November, 2016, America stood at a cross roads. Representative democracy, what some decried as the "status quo" lay on one side, and fascism on the other. The 67 million Americans who voted for Clinton chose democracy. Hillary as an individual was the least of what was on the ballot. Instead, it was a choice about the soul and future of America. Would we be inclusive or hateful? Would we embrace progress or turn the clock back to the era of Jim Crow? Would we move forward as an representative democracy or would we descend into fascism. 67 million Americans chose democracy. The rest chose fascism, whether by voting for Trump, someone else, or not voting at all. I fault all of them, every last one, for what this country has become, for what Trump and his Tiki torch Nazis have done to it.
It may not be politically wise. It may not be emotionally healthy. In fact, I'm sure it's not healthy. But I cannot forgive, and I will never forget.
cilla4progress
(24,718 posts)Right here with you, BB!
TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts)Doreen
(11,686 posts)Do not forget the lazy people who did not vote at all. I never thought I was ever capable of hate but I hate trump and his administration.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)wrongs and anger.
Suddenly I can't.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)They actively said they weren't going to vote and tried to convince others to do the same.
If someone voted 3rd party, write-in, or didn't vote at all, they contributed to Trumps victory. Period.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)which makes them culpable in the Tiki torch mob and every reprehensible thing that has transpired since Trump took office.
Warpy
(111,166 posts)I can't understand why there aren't lawsuits to get rid of easily hacked computer voting machines with no paper backup and no way to verify any vote that has been cast. I can't understand why these easily hacked pieces of crap are still allowed to tip elections against the people.
Given the diffidence of the people who are in a position to file these lawsuits, I suppose the machines will just have to wear out. I'll be long dead by then. So will this country.
radical noodle
(7,997 posts)I have friends I've had since grade school that I cannot even talk to anymore. Forgiving and forgetting is impossible.
SonofDonald
(2,050 posts)dhill926
(16,314 posts)JI7
(89,240 posts)it was a backlash to the gains made by minorities. why the sudden anti establishment talk when we suddenly have a black president.
and to prove my point lets look at the jon ossoff race. people were suddenly saying how experience mattered. these fuckers were saying the opposite before.
people are full of shit and after seeing what went on this past week where the bigotry was clearly out in the open with trump fully embracing them why do people still act like it was about something else ??????????
montana_hazeleyes
(3,424 posts)It was racism and all the other hate. No one can say they didn't see what trump was all about. It was clear who he was and what he would do.
Squinch
(50,916 posts)a substantial number voted for Trump(R) out of overt or unexamined sexism.
and it continues even now against every woman or person of color who serves office, a party leadership position, and/or is seeking higher office.
BigmanPigman
(51,567 posts)jmg257
(11,996 posts)Politically, does it matter?
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)I will devote my life to ensuring that their candidates are defeated. Not that they need help with that. They are managing it very well without my help.
betsuni
(25,380 posts)brer cat
(24,524 posts)Trump did not wear a mask or muzzle during the campaign or in earlier years. It was clear to anyone who listened what the choices were last November, and those who failed to vote or refused to vote Democratic have no legitimate excuse. They willingly made the choice to allow a hateful, spiteful fascist to reach the pinnacle of power. Those who willingly, often gleefully, spread the lies that weakened Hillary are just as guilty, as are those who loudly proclaimed her too "flawed" to pass their insular purity test. I cannot forgive and I will not forget.
Thank you for expressing so well the pain and agony that many of us feel.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)I think more Libertarians should have voted. I encouraged all of my Republican friends to vote for Johnson; just so long as they didn't lay down for Orange Lincoln Rockwell.
I can guarantee beyond a shadow of a doubt that a literal HANDFUL of Johnson votes would have gone to Hillary, and that's being generous. This notion that somehow a majority of Johnson's voters would have gone to Hillary is simply silly and doesn't square with the facts. Johnson's economic and social platforms were on par with, and in some cases to the right of, Trump.
MarvinGardens
(779 posts)My brother had always voted Republican before. He never would have voted for Hillary in a million years. He voted for Johnson. Staunch Republicans giving up on their party and going third-party could be beneficial to us.
Freedomofspeech
(4,223 posts)Meowmee
(5,164 posts)It's beyond me how anyone could vote for that monster or how he was even allowed to run for office. Something should've been done to stop it. I'm not sure whose worse- them or non voters non hrc voters etc. I'm just disgusted with this country. People here are really bat shit crazy.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Completely disgusted. Disgusted with the purity assholes that attacked Clinton and still are attacking Democrats when republicans and Trump are the clear enemies of us all. Disgusted with the assholes that felt they were above taking a few minutes to vote. Disgusted with the assholes that went into the voting booth and wasted a vote on Jill Stein or a writein. My response is fuck them, I won't join or help fund any of their causes anymore, FUCK THEM. The policies that Trump is proposing affect me none at all, I am not LGBTQ, I have never been assaulted by or watched by a cop, I have health insurance that is good, I have no kids that need an education. If the people affected by those things didn't give enough of a shit on November 8 to vote for Hillary, why should I give a shit about them now?
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)We will all be affected though in some way eventually. This is really about fascism taking over. Certainly my family will be affected by the policies etc. I always knew this could happen here. This is just pure madness now. We are all being abused. It's affecting my mental and physical health. The feeling I had watching this election and election night was about terror and the loss of freedom and rationality.
HAB911
(8,867 posts)Squinch
(50,916 posts)inflicted upon ourselves as a country, I want to strangle anyone who voted for that man and who did anything to bring down one of the best candidates we have ever had.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... and I'll just leave it at that.
liquid diamond
(1,917 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Maven
(10,533 posts)mcar
(42,278 posts)I tried to understand my Trump voting neighbors, people I've known and respected for years. I don't care anymore about their motivations. They brought this horror on us.
No sympathy, no empathy.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)the same lies invoked now that were circulated during the GE. I can't even convey in words (at least not DU safe words) the anger I feel.
oasis
(49,332 posts)BainsBane
(53,016 posts)Even after the rise of Nazism, we continue to see people invoke the very Kremlin propaganda that put Trump in office. It sickens me.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,106 posts)In all the places it happened before.
Yesterday one of them said (not here, somewhere else) "Kamala didnt go after Mnuchin but if I have to I will vote for her"
Did this person apply this same test to Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, JFK, their democratic house and senate members?
No, at least not until now, and now all of a sudden we have to apply a purity test that no politician can pass?
Madness, stupidity, etc.
It has everything to do with who is putting this stupidity into their heads and it makes it easier when the targets are female or POC.
Nah, not only can you not forgive, hell, they are doing it now. RIGHT NOW
BTW, that asinine attitude of holding your nose, you know what that does? It convinces all your friends, relatives, neighbors, coworkers you spew this shit to who were on the fence about bothering to vote AT ALL, not to.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(31,106 posts)oasis
(49,332 posts)Bill and Hillary have worked for decades to make lives better for all Americans. I don't even bother to argue with dunderheads who claim the opposite.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,106 posts)1000 of us combined do in our lifetimes.
Maybe slight exaggeration, but barely.
Every day I am amazed that I have even more anger, frustration and grief at the state of our beloved country. Amazed too that even after all the monstrous evilness, not a single repugnant is doing a thing to curb and stop this nightmare. We hold out glimmers of hope, but we all are in desperate need of relief.
hamsterjill
(15,220 posts)Like you, I stipulate and agree that feeling this way is not healthy, but I can't change the way that I feel. The anger that I feel simply has not dissipated because that anger continues to be stoked on a daily basis.
The Trump Administration has done some very real things that will cause hurt and pain to people that I care about and love. That's the reality, and I can't change it.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)And the abuse of our nation is definitely ongoing.
Fuck every last idiot who voted for Trump. That includes my aunt and my sister and everyone else who looked at this toxic sociopath and said "that man is the best choice to lead the most powerful nation on Earth."
Fuck them. They don't deserve my forgiveness or respect, and until they earn them, they will get neither.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)And there is lots of abusing going around. At least that's how I see it.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Very well stated.
handmade34
(22,756 posts)every day I wake, I mourn what we have become... we have a monumental battle before us and we must be driven; by passion, by un-forgiveness, by anger... we outnumber them and still must fight with all we have
0rganism
(23,930 posts)i can start forgiving them when they find a way to give me back all the sleep i lost over the last 9 months
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)If it were taken while I was listening to Trump?
I've also had sleep disruption.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I am afraid that I will start slashing my wrists while sitting in a tub of hot bath water if I did.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)but he came on NPR yesterday when I was driving. I was so angry I might have slammed my car into something.
CTyankee
(63,892 posts)it. When the doc came in he didn't mention it so I took that as a good sign.
Trump has come close to destroying the security I used to feel about my country.
fwvinson
(488 posts)I am, still, convinced that Russia had a direct hand in the vote itself.
If you recall...Clinton was ahead of trump with around 2 hours left in the election process. When Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Ohio went from double digit Clinton lead to trump winning. All of a sudden the vote flipped in those states.
We found out, later, that in the week before the election, that voting machines had been hacked in 20 something states...by Russia.
Now, more and more is being revealed that trump colluded with Russia.
Hell, I knew Russia was doing all this...in June of last year.
So, you know FBI, CIA, Obama, Clinton, McConnel, et. al. knew.
This could have all been released well before the election.
I am pissed...going to stay pissed....until our .........fuck it.......forever.
Republicans....REMEMBER......it can happed to you, too.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,106 posts)Some of the Russian spies were BORN here, or have been here for decades.
Deeply undercover in our society, we do the same over there.
Some work for software companies that make voting machines...Some work at voting precincts were votes are counted.
All of them were activated, so to speak, big time, when Putin was successful in getting his stooge, his idiot, his useful idiot, into the November election.
At which point every conceivable cheat they could do, they did. On election day, for sure. There are more of us than them, he didnt win those 4 states. Nope.
niyad
(113,074 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Russia just licked some icing off the cake. Our homegrown idiots like Susan Sarandon, Cornel West, Nina Turner baked and iced that cake and are still determined to fuck things up in 2018 and 2020.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)and those who assisted them eagerly played into Kremlin hands.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)gopiscrap
(23,726 posts)jcmaine72
(1,773 posts)A day of reckoning is coming for these people whether they know it or not. America has changed, and they have refused to change with it. They have placed their own puerile prejudices, petty hatreds, and insipid insecurities above the welfare of their fellow human beings. They are utterly worthless.
Let them enjoy their little buffet of hatred while they can. Someday they'll be served a stew they'll choke on.
lapucelle
(18,187 posts)History will not be kind to these folks; nor will I.
liquid diamond
(1,917 posts)I'll never reach out to those shit heads. If you voted for this nazi, fuck you. Maybe some of you aren't racists, but you had no problem voting for one which will hurt minorities.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I despise people like Cornell West and Susan Sarandon, but I consider them mere idiots, clueless about many important aspects of life. I heard that Cornell West was at Charlottesville in a line and enraged Nazis were about to attack them all before Antifa protected West and the others. A part of me wished that the Nazis had successfully fell down on West and beat most of the life out of him, at least enough that he realized the pure error of his ways leading up to the election. But, mostly I am numb because if I don't work to stay that way, the horror that I wished briefly on West would daily consume me, I am not that type of person. So now I spend my days working and other free time serially writing fictional novels so that I seldom deal with what is before me politically. A person can not live in isolation, although I know Trump's actions affect me personally none at all, they do affect issues that I care about, so I will have no option but to break out of my recent tendency to ignore all around me but that in front of me - I live a good life like that, but an awful life for my soul, but I don't see any other choice at this point.
niyad
(113,074 posts)is most definitely NOT called for.
kairos12
(12,843 posts)BainsBane
(53,016 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)I hear you and I accept.
I have suggested, mildly, that maybe anger isn't your best choice. But I do not judge you. I do wish you health, and I do wish you peace.
For me, I choose to look forward. Anger directed at the past, turned inward is depression. I've been depressed. It's not fun.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)but an instinct. And it's not just about the past. They continue even now to do the exact same thing.
Cary
(11,746 posts)wryter2000
(46,023 posts)The only two people I know who supported Trump did it because they hated the Clintons. Period. No other reason. And the hatred of Hillary has always been red-hotter than the hatred of Bill. It's Clinton hatred + misogyny.
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)No excuses and no forgiveness for willfully screwing over Democrats.
3catwoman3
(23,950 posts)...forgiveable. Ever.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)aren't in the least sorry for what they've done.
G_j
(40,366 posts)What are you doing to make sure we have a better future?
That's what really counts.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)for starters. Resist the White Supremacist goal of undermining civil rights and reproductive rights. I will continue to stand against injustice and to resist the efforts to complete the transformation of America into a White Nationalist nation by ensuring women and people of color have no representation, that they are driven from all leadership positions in the Democratic Party and are intimidated and bullied from seeking higher office. I will register voters, work on get out the vote campaigns, and resist their efforts to disenfranchise the poor and marginalized, to whiten the electorate, in order to engineer their own power grab. I will speak out against lies, bigotry, and fascism, and resist such evil with everything I possibly can. I only wish I could do more.
G_j
(40,366 posts)for all you do.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Whenever I read on DU that there are "good people who voted for trump" "they are just misguided" I just want to vomit.
This man started his campaign with a speech full of hatred and bigotry. Then he showed his views on assaulting women, he mocked the disabled, and it was shown again and again he was a fraudulent business man. It was always clear who he was. But these "good but misguided people" still voted for him?
Why?
"Because they thought he'd bring jobs" is a common reply. So that's it. It doesn't matter that he wants to take health care and benefits away from the most vulnerable. It doesn't matter that he is tearing families apart (which he always promised he would). It tears me apart when I see on Univision children crying saying good-by to their parents who are being deported, or videos of patents being handcuffed and taken away by ICE when they take their kids to school...the children screaming in terror. But who cares? These "good but misguided" trump voters will get theirs, who cares about the rest?
Same goes for everyone who did not vote for Hillary...I will never forget.
lark
(23,065 posts)I will not forgive any single person (unless they had medical issues and physically couldn't make it) who voted for Drumpf or Stein or McGregor or who didn't vote at all. They helped put this maniac into office so he could kill our country for his personal profit, oh and greatly increase the numbers of Nazis and KKK.
Initech
(100,041 posts)The hate and blood lust that's come out of the far right in the last year and a half has been absolutely disturbing. And so much of it is coming from young people. If you are fed a constant cycle of fear, hate, and misinformation for 40 years, you will get a generation that embraces Hitler.
Since the election I've been thinking of that line from Star Wars where Master Yoda says "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.". America fully embraces the Dark Side under Trump, and we saw that in Virginia. We had fear under the Bush administration. Then we saw the anger come out of the republicans against Obama in full force. Now with Trump, that anger turned to hate. What comes after hate?
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)and of course the danger is their hatred begets hatred from us as well.
pamdb
(1,332 posts)I would also add the Bernie supporters who chose to vote for President*bonespur, or Johnson or Stein rather than vote for Clinton. And I voted for Bernie in the primary but was smart enough and pragmatic enough and fucking ADULT enough to make a decision to support the Democratic candidate. I was fine with Hillary, actually I wish Joe Biden had run, and I still blame Bernie a little bit in that if he had endorsed Hillary in the first week, like she did with Obama, instead of dragging his feet and making speeches and talking about a brokered convention, it might have helped.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)There is no excuse for voting against Clinton. That includes all the Kremlin propaganda they spread. In fact, I still see those Kremlin stories cited as an excuse for their behavior.
Lots of very fine people voted for Bernie in the primary and moved on when he didn't win. That's how it always goes after every presidential primary. And those who are still going on about the damn primary are the fucking limit.
old guy
(3,283 posts)recovering_democrat
(224 posts)I had a personal experience where professional counselors strongly recommend that you learn to forgive, not for the person you are forgiving, but for yourself and your own mental health. I had to apply that to live, and I did.
I cannot apply it to the political situation. Like the author, I cannot forgive. I cannot forgive the Trump person elected, or the Republican party, or the idiots who made seriously bad choices about who to vote for instead of the two major candidates and loser other parties and individuals. and worst, those who amazingly for the first time in their patriotic lives decided NOT to vote. I cannot forgive.
May we all get through this with our country intact and able to advance. But I too cannot forgive and I will not forget.
Russian control, Nazis, White Supremacists and mostly ignorant idiots are not acceptable alternatives
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)and I don't tend to do so in other aspects of my life, and least not anymore. But this I can't help. I would have to avoid all news coverage and all political discussion to do that.
Maven
(10,533 posts)I will not forgive or forget either. K/R
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Skittles
(153,113 posts)they surely did vote to fuck America
JHan
(10,173 posts)This is more than that, and it needs to be said... 67 million Americans understood what was at stake and those 67 million are under no obligation to dish out forgiveness to those who willfully chose to ignore what was so blatantly obvious last year.
If I could have seen it, if you could have seen it, if so many saw it, what's their excuse?
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)And they mocked our concerns. They were wrong about that, just as they have been wrong about everything.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)for the self-absorbed, completely futile, utterly pointless, self-destructive, counterproductive wallow in righteous self-pity that it is.
I now realize it hurts no one but me and the country inasmuch as it prevents me/us from moving forward as completely as possible to FIGHT this fascism, hopefully once and for all, and to unify those who can be saved.
And there are plenty who can be saved.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)The families ripped apart by immigration raids, those murdered or otherwise victimized by hate crimes, the tens of millions who may lose their health insurance at any point, and the the tens of thousands who will be killed as a result. That is what you consider self pity.
Self-pity and, more importantly, narcissism, are what prompted a group of privileged white men to refuse to vote for the party's nominee because they didn't get their way in the primary. It promoted them to eagerly participate in Kremlin and GOP propaganda campaigns designed to defeat Clinton and install a White Supremacist regime. It is what motivated them to take revenge on the poorest, most vulnerable Americans by ensuring a government that would undermine their rights, threaten, and even take their lives, would come to power. That self-entitlement is the entirety of their political worldview and means that even today they demonstrate more contempt for the groups targeted by hate crimes than the Nazis who perpetrate them. It is what prompted their eager collaboration with fascism, and it is what makes them fascists. Fascism is as fascism does.
You keep right on worrying about saving the White Supremacists and those who put them in power. I'll focus on the people they are trying to exterminate. I will not politically empower them to kill more. I will not recruit them them into the Democratic Party to undermine and disenfranchise the Democratic base, the very people those White Supremacists want to wipe off the face of the planet. That is not fighting fascism. It is legitimating it, adopting its goals and values. Whether such collaboration is motivated by political expediency, a shared resentment of women and people of color, or both, it is reprehensible.
You don't seem to be free of rage, only you focus it on me. I find it difficult to believe that has anything to do with fighting fascism. In fact, you seem determined that they not be held accountable or even criticized for their actions.
radius777
(3,635 posts)but it's own thing. They hold an economically determinist view of the world where all human problems are merely the result of economics, and all else a distraction, hence they tend to see fascists as merely misguided populists, and share many of the same views, altho come to them from different angles.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)with no concern for the poor or those less privileged than themselves. In fact, they specifically argue against policies designed to address inequality in favor of those targeted at upper-middle class, people of considerable means who pretend they are oppressed because .1% of the world and 10 % of Americans have more than they do.
One example is education. They oppose federal resources being directed toward the needy. (eg. Chapo trap house's contempt for need-based funding for higher education). I've seen people who claim to be on the left insist that addressing inequality in K-12, which cements generations of poverty, was less important than ensuring people with incomes over $250k are entitled to "free" education. In the same breath, they will proclaim their opposition to equal rights and insist they can't support the Democratic Party because it doesn't value "equality"--meaning ensuring the wealth of white men like them at the expense of impoverishment for the many. So yes, it's an economic view, but one centered entirely on their own class interests over the poor.
Note that for all the talk about "corporatism" and banks, they haven't devoted one moment's attention, not one proposal or demand toward corporations or banks. Instead, they have focused on eroding civil rights and reproductive rights, driving women and people of color from party leadership and elected office, and instead insisting that Democrats must remake the party to cater to their sense of entitlement.
That entire discourse of corporatism is a transparent ruse that is used to enforce a reactionary class project that shares more than a passing resemblance to white nationalism.
I saw one on Twitter today say he was happy Trump won. They chose Trump over Clinton because Trump promotes white male entitlement. Even after seeing Nazis with Tiki torches terrorize Charlottesville, even after seeing a massive rise in hate crimes, they are happy Trump won because Trump is a perfect reflection of their souls.
The Democratic Party is the one area of political life where white male supremacy doesn't prevail, and that is precisely why they despise it and why they have set about trying to ensure that it abandons all support for and representation of people of color, women, and the poor.
radius777
(3,635 posts)which mythologizes the white working class, while erasing the non-white working class.
Their opposition to 'the system' ends when it comes to entities or companies (Apple, Starbucks, Uber, etc) that feed/sustain their consumerist identities and lifestyles.
Uber is utterly destroying the heavily poc/immigrant taxi industry, relegating it to monopoly control and slave wages. A true left would be out in the streets fighting about it, recognizing that the true working class (who do the sh1t work in this world) are mainly minority/immigrant.
Where I would disagree slightly with you is that it's not just about white males (as many young white men still support Dems) but also white females, who have voted GOP since 1996. 53% voted for Trump, a man who openly celebrates his misogyny as much as he does his racism, instead of voting to make Hillary the first female president.
Whiteness is the greatest form of wealth in this world, and white women recognize this and vote accordingly, even at expense of their gender.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)Though I think a central part of the opposition to Clinton was deep-seeded misogyny. Not that women aren't capable of being misogynistic. Of course they are.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)you're way off base.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)radius777
(3,635 posts)both by the opponents of the alt-left and the alt-left themselves.
Trump's recent use of the term was not correct, as he used it as a smear against the counter protesters, most of whom were probably non ideological or just regular liberals.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)There's NO support in my post for the allegations you've made about me in your rage-filled rant. None.
You chose to misinterpret and mischaracterize what I did say and outright invent things I didn't say. AFAIC, you've gone way beyond strawman to straw universe. I'll leave the great bulk of it alone because it's just rubbish not worth responding to. Your third paragraph is particularly offensive and egregious, but I want to address your last paragraph:
As a matter of fact, I was quite sincere -- your post DID help me. I found it quite ugly and inasmuch as I'm bone-weary of my own rage, it occurred to me: ENOUGH. Enough now. I don't want to carry this baggage around any longer.
I think that's hard to do when you're not FEELING rage, isn't it? Nor do I see any rage against YOU (or anyone/anything) in my post. Some disapproval, yes, that I shared about myself. But not rage.
When someone puts the focus is on MY rage, MY nonforgiveness, MY faultfinding and damnation of others, the attention is focused inward. There's clearly less attention and energy that can be devoted to fixing things. Maybe that will occur to you at some point. Maybe not.
That's true only in your imagination, which also basically applies to your entire response to me.
Look. I keep my Twitter and FB feeds pretty clean. But one of my FB friends ended up being someone who hated Hillary so much she just REFUSED to vote for her. I tried with all my might and repeatedly to tell her what a danger Trump was, to no avail. She said, "Congress will prevent him from doing much damage." This was NOT a politically uninformed person, but that attitude represents a level of naivete or denial or something that I don't understand at all. And absolutely couldn't breech. I unfriended her over the whole thing, but I've been tempted to go back and taunt her a bit -- you know, hold her accountable. But, what would be the point? There's nothing political at all in her timeline these days (more denial?). What would be the point? It might make ME feel good to rub her nose in it? That's just self-serving. And it fixes or helps NOTHING.
Or is that something you would do? What would you do to "hold them accountable"?
I think Joy Reid has it right in her piece here:
Why Republicans Must Pay for Trump Where she says, among other things: This is no time for intraparty perfectionism or partisan protectionism.
YMMV.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)for the self-absorbed, completely futile, utterly pointless, self-destructive, counterproductive wallow in righteous self-pity that it is.
That doesn't exactly communicate serenity.
I don't taunt people for their political choices. This isn't a game to me. Such things only reveal what people are. I also think there is no reason to assume she regrets her choice. From what I've seen, those people are delighted with the current state of America. They got exactly what they voted for, precisely what they wanted.
I have yet to encounter one person who maintain those views about Clinton that was informed. Such a potion requires being uninformed. Moreover, they are committed to remaining uninformed. They love nothing more than repeating what they hear on TV and systematically and repeatedly refuse to examine her policy positions and voting records. I spend the entire election and postmortem linking to such things, only to have them repeatedly refuse to look at them. They are every bit as uninformed as a Trump voting high school drop out. Remaining uninformed is central to maintaining their entirely unjustified sense of superiority. Donald Trump is a prefect reflection of their intellect and narcissism.
When Trump was first elected I was shocked. I didn't think that was possible in the America I knew. Only I didn't know America. I have since come to realize that he is a prefect reflection of the racial resentment, authoritarian tendencies, and narcissism rampant in American political culture. The contempt for evidence and truth, the elevation of men above law and citizen, and the focus on the self over the well being of the broader community and nation--all of that is endemic in American political culture, and it isn't just among those who openly profess loyalty to Trump.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)Differ, that is.
Serenity? You have to be in serenity to be not in rage? Try disapproval. I noted that I was disapproving, and that said disapproval applied to both of us. You're so busy being oppositional you can't think straight, and certainly aren't able to see where we agree. Because we do agree on some things.
But not this:
No, taunting isn't a game, nor does it imply a game. At its worse it's bullying. In the sense I intended, it would have been challenging and confronting someone on their choice: "How's Congress's control of Trump working out for you? Have you been happy with their control of his empowerment of Nazis and white nationalists? The dissolution of environmental protections? Foreign policy vis a vis North Korea? (etc., etc.) "
As for my former FB "friend" -- I'm quite sure you're in no position to judge her state of informedness, or regretfulness, or frankly anything else about her. I can tell you this, though. You're entirely right about SOME of the people who didn't vote for Hillary, and entirely wrong about others.
Look. I've engaged with you as much as I'm going to on this because it's pretty damned pointless. I hope you feel you're accomplishing something, because that would make one of us. I know I'm not, so good day.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,106 posts)self pity?
Better not be what anybody posting HERE said.
radius777
(3,635 posts)was their method is more proactive/tougher than the sombre/reflective ... both ways are valid.. and im sure most Dems went through both.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,106 posts)Progressive dog
(6,899 posts)These Trump supporters and enablers have made their contempt for our system of government known. They helped elect a psychopath who has no respect for the rule of law or the rights of others. That is unforgivable.
TomSlick
(11,088 posts)I try really hard to forgive those who recognize they made a mistake. I remain angry at the folks that are still supporting Trump but I see those who have seen the error of their ways as a hopeful sign.
SunSeeker
(51,516 posts)FreepFryer
(7,077 posts)Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)Last edited Mon Aug 28, 2017, 04:57 PM - Edit history (1)
their sin. I find particularly loathsome those who trashed Hillary and now figure that we need to bow down to them for their bravery. Then there are the self-liars who won't admit what they did, or try to diminish it by saying they were in a "safe" or "lost" state, or worse still cling to the russia-produced propaganda that so many fell in love with during the campaign. Not to mention the self-delusion who want to blame Hillary for what they produced.
It would be a better world if these enablers would self reflect and publicly acknowledge their part in creating what we have now.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)100%
WheelWalker
(8,954 posts)BainsBane
(53,016 posts)They are very proud of what they accomplished in electing Trump. He is a perfect reflection of their values.
But you keep mocking people who value decency over Nazism. Everyone has their priorities.
WheelWalker
(8,954 posts)Blessings.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)They had all the same access to information that I had.
MontanaMama
(23,296 posts)who have thrown our country to the dogs? Forgiveness would be wasted because they'd do it again tomorrow without a second thought. Forgiveness....no.
Funtatlaguy
(10,862 posts)Just imagine if her tapioca pudding recipe was intercepted by the Russians?
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)thank you and seconded..... I will never forgive...never forget....period
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)MarvinGardens
(779 posts)If we can get through this national nightmare intact as a nation, we will need to forgive those who are sorry, and move forward together.
Willie Pep
(841 posts)There are some people who voted for Trump because they were unhappy about the way the country was going, mad at the elites, mad at both parties and voted for Trump out of desperation. You can argue that they were stupid for being hoodwinked by a con artist like Trump but we have to remember that a lot of people are not well-informed and vote based on perception.
If someone told me that they voted for Trump because they thought he would "shake up the establishment" but regrets that vote now that they see what Trump is really about I would be happy to talk to them about why they should vote for the Democrats going forward. We need all the voters we can get and it doesn't pay to hold political grudges.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)and take responsibility for what they brought about through their actions.
Hopefully they'll stop spewing idiocies about "shaking up the establishment" and inform themselves better in the future. If not, they will almost certainly continue to contribute to the country's descent into fascism and authoritarianism.
beaglelover
(3,460 posts)BainsBane
(53,016 posts)That's his problem.
samnsara
(17,606 posts)....THIS MESS IS ON YOU!