General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWere There Evacuation Orders for Houston before the Storm?
I don't remember hearing about any. And, as it turns out, now, Houston may be the place that needed them the most. On the coast, people were told to evacuate, but not in Houston, as far as I know.
The potential for casualties is growing.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)Don't worry, Trump will save them.
Warpy
(111,899 posts)and his guide will be Blake "ducky pajamas" Farenthold.
Look him up sometime if you don't recognize the name, just make sure eye bleach is handy.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)Trump's FEMA cuts should really help the people in Houston. Heck of a job, Trumpy.
LeftInTX
(26,357 posts)The mayor didn't want a Rita situation.
My son and his wife are in San Antonio for the weekend.
They won't be going back to Houston until everything settles.
MineralMan
(146,441 posts)Now, there's basically no way out of the city, really. I saw the freeway map this morning and just about every freeway was blocked at some point by flooding. The only road I could see that was actually open, going North was Hwy 8 on the Eastern Side of Houston, but I'm not sure people could get to it from most parts of the city.
LisaL
(45,039 posts)And somehow according to you that would be better?
defacto7
(13,485 posts)instead of waiting for people to risk their lives to rescue them, wait for possible disease breakout.. and thousands don't have homes to sit in. There are other morbid reasons why evac would have been better.
I'm not blaming. It's a natural random event and there are no perfect predictions.
LisaL
(45,039 posts)If they are stuck on the road, who is going to take them in?
defacto7
(13,485 posts)Again, I dont think the mayor made a wrong decision. He didn't call for an evacuation, he did encourage people to leave if possible. Honestly, I may change my mind on our discussion looking at the forcast map. This is truly unprecidented. Maybe you're right.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Due to the nature of the distances involved, it would have meant gridlock, with people running out of gas, food, and water, on empty stretches of road with nothing around them.
angel823
(409 posts)I don't post often, but I logged in to specifically reply to this thread. All due respect MineralMan, because I agree with you 99.9% of the time, I must disagree.
I have lived in the Houston area for 40 years. I was here during Alicia, Allison, Rita and Ike, when many folks attempted evacuation.
If your area normally floods, you should have had enough sense to leave if at all possible, regardless of what Mayor Turner did or did not order. Logistically and economically this isn't possible for everyone.
People panic, and if you order an evacuation for those in flood-prone areas, many folks who probably don't need to evacuate WILL evacuate in panic, further clogging the roads.
I have an 11 year-old daughter, 3 dogs and 5 cats. No way I would evacuate and get stuck with them in a car on a freeway overpass somewhere for 12-24 hours or more. Not that being stuck in a house with rising water would be better, but there are no "good" options here, just educated guesses for everyone at a public and private level, based on history and experience.
I support Mayor Turner and his handling of this event.
Angel in Texasperated
tibbir
(1,170 posts)When Hurricane Rita approached the Gulf Coast in 2005, Houston was given the order to evacuate and, having seen the destruction caused by Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans just before this, a great portion of the city's population attempted to leave. My son and I did as well. We didn't even get halfway out of town before being stopped by a MASSIVE traffic jam. Luckily we were able to turn around and go home to ride out the storm, which turned out to be very minor in the scheme of things. I believe that there were about 120 or 150 deaths from Rita and, of that, about 100 were from people trying to evacuate.
Gas stations ran out of fuel and cars ran out of gas. People were trapped with their cars on the side of the road in 95-100 degree heat - which Houston's humidity can feel like as much as 110 degrees. Being in the middle of nowhere or by businesses that were closed for the storm, there was nowhere for them to go.
People who live on the coast, where there could be a storm surge, NEED to leave if a hurricane threatens but Mayor Turner made the right call (and I'm NOT a Mayor Turner fan).
dalton99a
(82,137 posts)Cattledog
(5,940 posts)dalton99a
(82,137 posts)malaise
(271,000 posts)And while they have finally opened the Convention Center, they are still telling people that their homes are the best places to be.
Check the comments section here for great updates
KatyMan
(4,248 posts)And Rita was awful, all that happened were people were stuck on the freeways and interstates for hours and hours. Dumb Ass Governor Gregg Abbot said people should leave the other day and Houston leadership was quick to back that out saying, no, stay where you are. Freeways have been underwater since Friday, and tens of thousands of people (if not more) would be stuck in a terrible situation if they evacuated--stuck on the freeway, likely for days, pummeled by rain, wind, and tornadoes with no food, water, bathrooms or protection. Much safer at home or in shelters near home in flood prone areas.
This is an unreal extreme situation, but Houston and surrounding areas have experienced some pretty serious storms and flooding before, and I believe the city and county know how best to handle this, especially after Allison when a lot of building codes were changed to reflect this possibility. I trust them way more than the state government wrt this situation.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)but everybody have fun blaming the victims. Why not ask where the hell FEMA, the National Guard, and the Coast Guard are?
They did order an evacuation pretty much from Galveston down past Corpus Christi which is about 200 miles. Had we all tried to get out of here in our cars many many many people would have drowned.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)either, though. What are they supposed to do as far as evacuating millions who hadn't already chosen to leave, after all? First duty for all of us is to take care of ourselves so that emergency workers can tend to those not capable of that.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)This is what they can do and should do well.
MineralMan
(146,441 posts)Where can people whose homes are flooded go within Houston, and how will they get there? Those who decided on their own to get out of town are the lucky ones. Those who stayed may be in big trouble as time passes.
I can tell you this: If 40" of rain were predicted anywhere I lived, I'd have loaded up my car and gotten the hell away from there before the first raindrop fell. From Houston, I'd head for San Antonio and I-35 northbound and not stop until I was out of Texas. Maybe in Oklahoma, or Wichita or even Des Moines.
There is no urban area in the United States that can handle 40" of rain successfully. I'd have gotten out of there very early.
herding cats
(19,576 posts)My costal relatives went to family in Houston initially, but I made them all come here to my house in Austin. We have them divided up now between two family houses in the Hill Country.
My family is lucky. We have places to put people, but most are not as fortunate. Also, even with it being a voluntary evacuation my family was in traffic for hours trying to get out of Houston.
LisaL
(45,039 posts)If everybody tried to leave, it would be impossible to manage.
herding cats
(19,576 posts)It's 6.5 million people. That's an insane amount of people to try and move out and shelter in other places.
LisaL
(45,039 posts)It intensified so quickly.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)If a hurricane threatened when we were down on an estuary close off Tampa Bay in Florida, we and a couple of extended family members in the same situation would plan to drive straight home 9 hours or so north, but we'd have to evacuate from the Tampa-Sarasota area and have no feeling for the relation between the notice forecasters are able to give and evacuation conditions.
Having family can be a wonderful comfort, all right. So, for that matter, is having no local family to care for, no jobs, children or schools to consider, and 60-year-old MHs chosen with the possibility of total loss in mind. Extremely different situation, to put it mildly, from what so many are facing right now.
herding cats
(19,576 posts)Which was when it became obvious were we're going to be dealing with a monster of a storm that was going to stall out over Texas. At the time we were just planning to err on the side of caution, but now I'm greatly relived I kept prodding them. While I'm pretty sure my Houston proper realatives homes are ok right now, my more costal realatives homes have sustained flooding and damage most likely, which we had already expected.
In this case it's just good to have them out of the mess down there. It's going to be weeks before everything is functioning even remotely in a normal fashion.
I also have 3 in laws stuck on the cruise ship the Carnival Breeze. They were supposed to port in Galveston this morning. They were told today they're now heading to Miami for fuel and supplies and won't be docking in Galveston until Friday. Which implies they're not expecting Houston roads to be back to normal before then.
Harvey has been a wild ride already and it's not even halfway over if the weather forecasts are correct.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)We haven't ever had the comfort and shelter of our home replaced by a giant mess that must be addressed, and I'm thinking it must be much worse than I can imagine, no matter how positive and philosophical one tries to be. Thank goodness for family!
Now, stuck on a cruise ship. Relatively fortunate situation or hell... Hope this one stays adequately stocked until they get to Miami. I didn't realize road conditions came under the cruise line's responsibilities, but nice to know they can't just dump passengers into a crisis zone.
LeftInTX
(26,357 posts)There are areas in Houston which should be fine.
There are many low lying areas in Houston, but the N and NW suburbs should be OK.
Once roads are clear, they will either return home or possibly San Antonio.
San Antonio population surged post-Katrina.
herding cats
(19,576 posts)Also, there were all the other people from down the coast who were already evacuating to consider. There just isn't enough places to move them all to that weren't also under threat of the storm.
LisaL
(45,039 posts)And there was even less time with Harvey. They wouldn't be able to evacuate Houston.
It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.
LisaL
(45,039 posts)But TX didn't do much to address it. And I don't think Harvey even qualifies as the "perfect storm" since it didn't go for Houston directly.
"Still, scientists say, Houstons perfect storm is coming and its not a matter of if but when. The city has dodged it for decades, but the likelihood it will happen in any given year is nothing to scoff at; its much higher than your chance of dying in a car crash or in a firearm assault, and 2,400 times as high as your chance of being struck by lightning."
http://grist.org/climate-energy/houston-is-a-sitting-duck-for-the-next-big-hurricane-why-isnt-texas-ready/
uponit7771
(90,444 posts)bluepen
(620 posts)For those who can't afford it, close inland schools to use as shelters, use school buses to bring evacuees.
This is done in many places. Not hard to figure out.
KatyMan
(4,248 posts)The Houston area knows how to deal with this sort of flooding in normal situations and thus well equipped to ramp up in extremely extraordinary situations. If an evacuation was needed (or feasible) it would have been called for.
The emergency personnel responding to this event before and after are doing a great job.
bluepen
(620 posts)SC evacuation plans for 1 million+, South FL for 6.5 million +.
There was public disagreement over evacuation in TX. Could have been a bad decisions at many levels. Worth evaluating after this settles down.
LisaL
(45,039 posts)Maybe you can evacuate some cities, but Houston has too many people and two few roads going out.
bluepen
(620 posts)Until they started evaluating their plans every year.
trof
(54,268 posts)KatyMan
(4,248 posts)Fla could evacuate 6.5 million people in 56 hours, which is how long it took Harvey to go from a Cat1 to a Cat4.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)No way they are getting 6.5 million out of all Miami to Orlando. Because that is how far they would have to go in Texas. Here in Florida we just get them away from the coast, sometimes 10 miles will do it unless we are talking the keys.
And we have never executed the plans we have. Florida just does not have a scenario that duplicates Houston. Even College Station may be flooding by the time it is over.
And Texas has no real zoning laws so people can build in the craziest places
Have a nice day.
Cattledog
(5,940 posts)tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Houston is an anomaly. To say "Texas has no real zoning laws" is just grossly inaccurate.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)The program I saw was talking about Houston and made it sound like the zoning laws were Texas wide. But Houston is what we are discussing sozoning laws, or lack there of, may be a contributing issue.
Have a nice evening.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)We do have a lot of land-use regulations, Festa said. We still have a lot of stuff that looks and smells like zoning.
To be more precise, Houston doesnt exactly have official zoning. But it has what Festa calls de facto zoning, which closely resembles the real thing. Weve got a lot of regulations that in other cities would be in the zoning code, Festa said. When we use it here, we just dont use the z word.
https://urbanedge.blogs.rice.edu/2015/09/08/forget-what-youve-heard-houston-really-does-have-zoning-sort-of/#.WaNNj0FOmEc
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)mcar
(42,721 posts)So your point is moot.
bluepen
(620 posts)mcar
(42,721 posts)bluepen
(620 posts)Looks like we've covered it all.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)When we lived near Galveston and big storms came through.
Of course, that presupposes enough advanced warning (Houstonians were told that they would miss the worst of it until too late), a car, gas money, and out of town relatives.
Lack of friends/relatives are often a reason people don't evacuate. If the storm ends up a bust (which seems to happen more often than not) and you're poor, there won't be any assistance if you flee, and then you're stuck in Corsicana with no place to go.
Not Ruth
(3,613 posts)MineralMan
(146,441 posts)I can't post the image, but this map gets updated regularly. Every major road on the map shows High Water markers, which indicate flooding problems. I can't find a route out of the city anywhere within the second loop freeway around it. Houston residents are really trapped within the city at this point.
LisaL
(45,039 posts)Potentially drowning in those cars. Basically, you can't evacuate Houston unless given a lot of time.
KatyMan
(4,248 posts)Some podunk town. Millions of people live in the greater area, we're the fourth largest city in the US. How long would it take to evacuate Chicago? That's the equivalency, except the area involved is larger than Connecticut.
LisaL
(45,039 posts)It only gotten more people since hurricane Rita (where all the people got stuck on roads because of mass evacuation orders).
benld74
(9,937 posts)highplainsdem
(49,519 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Who is a Democrat (and is African-American).
They found their "person to blame".
mcar
(42,721 posts)Per Houston's mayor, that would have put 6+ million people in the city and county on the roads. Would have made a bad situation even worse.
Gothmog
(147,732 posts)The county judge has that power nut not the govern
LisaL
(45,039 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)Houston is the 4th most populated city in the nation.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)the question of money, gas, health issues and all. And storms are often unpredictable. I sure don't have the answer, but I do know it's not possible to simply evacuate millions of people. Houston is a huge place, not some small area to evacuate. And then breakdowns on the roads. To me it's always the water that's the worst. Suddenly the evacuation route is flooded. And most people can't just stop their job and leave 3 or 4 days ahead. Many people live paycheck to paycheck.
kydo
(2,679 posts)from Houston this morning.
I can understand the point behind not issuing the evacuation of the entire city of Houston during this storm. However, they knew this was coming. At the very least people in already known flood prone areas should have been evacuated. Same with hospitals, nursing homes and places for the shelters that will be needed. And sandbags. Why weren't they used. Its not going stop the flooding but they can help keep the water out in places that being used for staging, relief shelters, hospitals ect.
Seems nothing was done at all. It's like they all said "whew storm didn't hit us let's watch sci-fi they are showing an "It" marathon."
We had 52 hours to prepare, and everyone did prepare. Sometimes no amount of prep is sufficient for what Mother Nature delivers. I can't believe what I'm reading on DU today. Horribly insensitive coments. It's like reading Drudge.
Phoenix61
(17,101 posts)Until you've been evacuated due to a hurricane you just don't get it. Never been so scared as I was running from Opal.
kydo
(2,679 posts)I was here in 2004 when charlie hit, two weeks later fran and two weeks later jean. When tropical storms of any variety come this way almost straight up the flood warnings do too, even when we are not in that cone. They start issuing sand bags. Making preps for the rain. Btw, with charlie, it did a weird wobble at the last minute and instead of not being a mega issue for orlando, as many were sent here for evacuation. That storm was headed for us and we had less then 24 hours to get ready. So I get the short notice thing.
I am sure there were people that did prepare. But in all honesty, it really didn't sound there was that much urgency on bracing for the flood. I know how things happen here. We get these all the time. My heart is breaking for you and those in Tx. I have lots of family there. It was not a scold on the people but the emergency management. Take care!
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)And I predict some very difficult political prices to pay, even though evacuation would've been quite problematic too.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/houston-told-people-to-stay-for-harvey-now-they-cant-get-out
Two days ago, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott told Houston residents that even in the absence of an official evacuation order you need to strongly consider evacuating.
But there was immediate pushback from Houston officials who said they knew better.
Harris Countys emergency management spokesperson, Francisco Sanchez, responded to Abbotts suggestion on Twitter this way:
Local officials know best. Houston has no evacuation order. In Harris County: very limited to select communities. LOCAL LEADERS KNOW BEST.
snip
By Sunday morning, thousands of Houston homes were taking on water and thousands of people were trapped in their homes. Mayor Turner said that the city had received more than 2,000 calls to 911 for rescues, acknowledging people may be calling and not getting a response.
Neither Sanchez nor the mayor's office could be reached for comment, though Turner said on Sunday you cant put 6.5 million people on the roads, referring to the population of the metro Houston area.
highplainsdem
(49,519 posts)He KNEW that the Houston evacuation plans needed a minimum of 60 hours before landfall. And it would have had to be coordinated with the state government, because a state fleet of buses was needed to start the evacuation.
He KNEW that without that time and coordination, there would likely be chaos and gridlock and probably more loss of life.
This was CYA from Abbott, at the expense of the mayor of Houston.
Editing to add a link to my thread about the evacuation plans and the time required:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029521532
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)This is a catastrophe six ways from Sunday.
uponit7771
(90,444 posts)LisaL
(45,039 posts)And Harvey didn't even hit it directly.
"It is not if, but when Houstons perfect storm will hit."
http://grist.org/climate-energy/houston-is-a-sitting-duck-for-the-next-big-hurricane-why-isnt-texas-ready/
pnwmom
(109,070 posts)many more than died because of the storm itself.
So it's a difficult call. Trying to get 6 million people out of a city SAFELY in a few days is a huge challenge. And one of the forecasters who was regarded as very reliable was downplaying the severity of the potential storm. He thought the worst case scenario for Houston was 25 inches.
https://spacecityweather.com/harvey-late-night-some-final-thursday-thoughts/
KatyMan
(4,248 posts)He kept writing about how bad it would be, and expected the worst case scenario and stressed the need to prepare and that it would be catastrophic. Your post is disengenuos.
pnwmom
(109,070 posts)Im talking about Eric Berger and Matt Lanza, from Space City Weather.
On Tuesday afternoon, when evacuations of a 6 million population city would have had to have been underway, they said there might be 10-15 inches of rain and it would be irresponsible to predict this storm would be a repeat of Tropical Storm Allison in retrospect they were wrong.
I post this not because you should take the track above as gospelit is far from it. Rather, the model is illustrative of the fact that this is a tropical system that could very well move inland into Texas somewhere along the coast, more or less stall, and drop 10 to 15 inches of rain (or more) on someones head over a two or three day period. Widespread areas may see 4 to 8 inches. Im not saying this is a repeat of Tropical Storm Allison, as that would be irresponsible. But these kinds of slow moving systems are the ones that often produce widespread flooding.
https://spacecityweather.com/yeah-this-weekend-is-looking-wet-for-texas/
On Thursday they predicted for Houston 2-4 inches of rain through Saturday
https://spacecityweather.com/tag/tropical-storm-harvey/
Barring a major change in forecast, locations further up the Texas coast, including Houston, will see seas rise 3 to 5 feet above normal levels, gusty winds, and perhaps 2 to 4 inches of rain through Saturday.
KatyMan
(4,248 posts)My reading of that site this whole time left me with a feeling that this storm was going to be as bad as it's become.
Are you in the area? Nobody took this lightly.
pnwmom
(109,070 posts)and they have been posting the weather reports from Space City every day, and taking comfort in them-- till Friday! By then it was too late to evacuate 6 million people.
As you can see from my earlier post, earlier last week they were saying it was irresponsible to compare this to Allison -- but Harvey is very comparable to Allison, and might even be worse. And they were predicting only 2-4 inches of rain for Houston on Saturday.
Quixote1818
(29,283 posts)What has occurred was Harvey stalling out and then moving north over Houston as a Tropical Storm at a snails pace. There is probably no one in place currently to help make such a call. They were predicting huge amounts of moisture over Houston and they may have even foreseen what is occurring there but with Trump not having placed anyone in that leadership position people were left looking at one another and not knowing exactly what to do.
B2G
(9,766 posts)And by all accounts, he is good.
I wish people would stop spreading this bs.
Quixote1818
(29,283 posts)Snip: Trump's pick for FEMA administrator was confirmed in June, but officials at NOAA are still waiting for Trump to nominate someone to lead the key weather monitoring agency. The post remains vacant -- and without a Trump nominee -- alongside dozens of other deputy, under and assistant secretary positions in the Trump administration that require Senate confirmation.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/25/politics/donald-trump-hurricane-harvey-natural-disaster-response-test/index.html
Lotusflower70
(3,077 posts)To evacuate that many people. With that much traffic, they would have been sitting ducks. The mayor of Houston is the TOP scapegoat.
uponit7771
(90,444 posts)... instead of letting 6.5 million people suffer.
Abbot tried to CYA by claiming low lying areas should evacuate but that wasn't conveyed to country DHS or mayor
LisaL
(45,039 posts)it's not actually possible to evacuate Houston in a short period of time.
Lotusflower70
(3,077 posts)If not everyone is on the same page, more people are put at risk.
steve2470
(37,461 posts)It seems that there were no really good answers. Everyone had to decide for themselves the best safest approach.
My prayers and good vibes for you all
Retrograde
(10,256 posts)Our biggest natural threats here in California are earthquakes and fires, with occasional flooding in wet years. The first is hard to prepare for (and since it's been so long since the last biggish ones I think a lot of people have gotten complacent), but for fires people are advised to have a "defensible zone" around buildings so underbrush doesn't spread to structures. Towns in flood-prone areas provide sand and sandbags when it looks like the creeks are going to rise over their banks. In addition there are regular preparedness drills by emergency response agencies.
Of course, we pay the highest income taxes in the country for these services, and the bottom line after Loma Prieta was be prepared to be without services for at least 3 days. Does Texas - especially those areas prone to heavy rainfall - do any sort of planning in advance for disasters?
uponit7771
(90,444 posts)KatyMan
(4,248 posts)California is for the most catastrophic earthquake you can think of. Houston knows tropical weather the way LA knows earthquakes. Sometimes it's worse than disaster planning could imagine.
Retrograde
(10,256 posts)but we can learn from past experiences how to make things at least a little better than the last time.
BamaRefugee
(3,494 posts)What's the difference? Right wingers are alresdy blaming Houston black Democratic mayor. Had he issued orders, they would have been screaming "NANNY STATE!"
RandySF
(61,881 posts)aka-chmeee
(1,135 posts)Well maybe not evacuation order (not the best way to deal with my wife) but it was at least a strong suggestion that she head home (Kansas). She responded that they were planning to leave Saturday but would "check it out". Friday morning she called to tell me they were on the road North. Happy ending for us at least. Her mother and sister are hunkered down in their home and not going anywhere but still in no immediate peril (NW Houston)
hunter
(38,495 posts)There were people sleeping in rest stops and on the side of the road Saturday night before the eclipse. Returning home it was worse.
Horse with no Name
(33,960 posts)Mainly because of the disaster when they evacuated for Hurricane Rita and people were stranded on the roads. Can you imagine millions of people stranded on the roads that are now covered in water?
The death toll would be astounding.
I can't imagine there was a good solution in any case here.
But I remember the thousands stranded and running out of gas during Rita....it was a disaster within the disaster.