i am ambiguous regarding private citizen rescues

[drray23]

First of, let me state that of course it is a life saver for many people and that volunteers who help on their own time with their boats, vehicles, etc are to be praised.

What I am conflicted about is what this reveals. Are we being groomed to expect that the government wont be able to provide these basic needs and that one has to pull oneselves by the bootstraps ?

Trump already indicated he wanted to cut the budget for noaa, the cost guards, fema, etc.. When asked recently why he is not staffing federal agencies adequately he replied that its by design as they are trying to shrink the government.

Back in the context of the texas disaster, I did not hear that fema had even prepositioned assets beforehand.
You would think getting high water vehicles and boats is something that could have been planned ahead of time for example.

[Sneederbunk]

1. In time of disaster you do not wait on red tape, you act.

[drray23]

2. that was not my point.nt.

[marybourg]

3. People were helping one another loooong

before FEMA came along. It's government help that's the newcomer, not individuals helping one another.

And, I did hear that FEMA had pre-positioned equipment and supplies in Texas.

[drray23]

4. great so we should get rid of FEMA ?

[marybourg]

9. I can recommend a book on logical thinking. nt

[drray23]

13. excuse me ? you have not even bothered understanding my point.

You are essentially saying that we were fine before FEMA (Jimmy Carter created it in 1979) so why bother with it ?
That is a typical rwinger outlook.

[Bonx]

56. "You are essentially saying"

meaning, you weren't saying that at all.

[B2G]

15. Lol!! nt

[brush]

23. Good job there, Brownie.

[Squinch]

40. The poster is actually making an important point. I guarantee we will be hearing, in

the months to come, that the self-reliance of people in Texas means that rescue organizations don't need to be funded very much.

This is an effort that is going on at every level of government in this administration. There is no reason to suspect that it will not be applied with emergency services.

Obviously no one is saying that everyone should not do everything they can. But using this as an excuse not to fund first emergency responders would be characteristic for this administration and probably will happen.

[marybourg]

45. That is a meme some people disposed that way

will embrace, but acknowledging the fact that people have helped each other as long as there were people on earth, and that government disaster aid is a relatively new concept, is not the same as a suggestion to do away with government aid.

[Squinch]

46. No one has said that people have not helped each other. No one has said they shouldn't.

And no, it's not a "meme."

I don't get why this poster is getting such crap simply for stating something that - if we apply that logic you recommend to others - we know this administration will try to do.

[marybourg]

52. What I took the poster to task for was this response to my

pointing out that people helping people is the "default", so to speak, and government disaster aid is a relative newcomer:


"great so we should get rid of FEMA ?"

In my opinion, this was a silly and illogical response. I'm sure you agree.

[Squinch]

54. I actually thought your response that prompted that obvious sarcasm was the illogical

element in the conversation.

But as long as you're sure I agree with you...

[marybourg]

57. Okay, I apologies for assuming your agreement. nt

[trof]

59. FWIW I agree with you.

[LanternWaste]

64. We're I a betting man, I'd take that bet and give you 7-2 odds

"I guarantee we will be hearing... that the self-reliance of people... means that rescue organizations don't need to be funded very much."

We're I a betting man, I'd take that bet and give you 7-2 odds on a three hundred dollar bet, if you are referring to anyone other than the usual suspects in the right-wing who say that on a daily basis.

[pangaia]

55. thread winner...

[Zoonart]

5. We are definitely being groomed for YOYO.

b

[Angry Dragon]

6. Long is brand new on the job

[trof]

60. He is very experienced though.

Look him up on wiki.
This ain't his first time at the rodeo.
I'm sure no fan of tRump, but whoever told him he should select Long did good.

[Angry Dragon]

63. I have read that

[leftstreet]

7. FEMA needs to give volunteers all the resources they need

That would be a start

[ProudLib72]

8. I understand what you mean

However, we should probably wait a couple months for all the fallout over the handling of this. Right now it is all about using any and all available resources. Later on will come the blaming, and I bet it won't be pretty for tRump.

[FakeNoose]

51. Many communities (especially rural ones) have volunteer fire departments

FEMA can't be everywhere and it has limited resources. It only makes sense to be prepared, just like the Boy Scouts.

Sometimes the helping hand doesn't get there in time, but it's not always somebody's fault.

Just sayin'

[FLPanhandle]

10. I've been through multiple hurricanes

Everyone knows not to count on any government help in the middle of the storm or immediately afterward. We always take care of ourselves first, then neighbors/friends/family.

The area impacted and number of people overwhelms any government capability.

Volunteer help is critical to any disaster. Katrina was made worse by the government bureaucrats stopping people from helping, stopping supplies from getting in, etc.

[Girard442]

28. Trump will come out better than Bush...

...if he does nothing. There were numerous reports that the Katrina situation was intentionally exacerbated.

[Brother Buzz]

11. Even hear of the Sheriff's Posse?

It's composed almost entirely of civilian volunteers doing search and rescue, be it on horse, jeep, snowmobile, or boats.

[Amishman]

12. Numbers and geography

In a disaster, what is needed is skilled operators on the spot with the right equipment and experience. For water rescues in an urban setting that is shallow draft boats and operators who are used to dealing with tricky currents and submerged hazards. Civilian fisherman from the coastal backwaters fit this exactly.

The country is a big place and it's just not feasible to have trained personnel and specialty equipment across the country for every scenario ready with a day or two notice.

The numbers needed is huge. There are thousands of national guard deployed with trucks and heavy equipment, but on the news most of what we see are civilian volunteers. Why? Because there really are that many more people helping out of the goodness of their hearts.

[TexasBushwhacker]

31. And the time issue

If more people can be rescued more quickly using volunteers, that means the overall panic level stays lower and that is good. For the most part these volunteers are making short distance rescues to take people to staging areas where large numbers of people are being picked up by the National Guard and the Coast Guard to be transported to shelters. They are even using cleaned up dump trump trucks to transport folks.

[lunatica]

14. Well look at it this way

If government emergency and aid organizations get cut, we Americans can handle it as far as rescuing others goes.

[drray23]

16. no we cant. only immediate needs and up to a point.

Of course, in the immediate aftermath everybody pitching in is great. There is still a need for a competent federal and state government to handle things like infrastructure , sending resources, etc..

[lunatica]

38. i said as far as rescuing others goes.

Not any of the rest. Please read my comment.

[yallerdawg]

17. Should we be dependent on the kindness of strangers...

or rely on the professionalism and skill of our public servants at every level?

Government IS to provide for our safety and common, general welfare, particularly in times of need and crisis.

What other purpose does our government serve?

[drray23]

18. exactly. its right up there in the preamble of the constitution.

For decades the republicans have been trying their best to shrink the government. It started with the "pull yourself by the bootstraps" Reaganism.

Apparently, it started to even affect democrats if I believe some of the responses on this thread.

[annabanana]

22. +1 . . . . n/t

[delisen]

30. I don't see it as a competition between government and

ones neighbors.

We should have state of the art disaster rescue and safety service.

We should also be ready to help our neighbors.

I think it is true that many republicans and Republican billionaires do not want the government services to be provided.

[GulfCoast66]

48. There are not and never have been enough professionals to handle Harvey

And I guarantee you I would rather be rescued by a Cajun in his duck boat than a national guardsman who might be an accountant piloting a boat he or she has never operated.

Helping and saving our neighbors is at the heart of what being an American should be about. It is not a conservative nor liberal trait and seeing it happen on the scale as seen in Houston is no indication of failing government. At not the rescue phase. Probably plenty of blame in urban planning but humans just do not plan cities very well.

We will regret the day a majority of citizens feel ambivalent about the scene in Houston.

[B2G]

19. If you even have to ask this right now

you have no idea of the magnitude of what is happening there.

[FLPanhandle]

21. +1

Obviously, someone who hasn't ever been through a major hurricane and the aftermath.

The ignorance...

[drray23]

25. I have several times.

It would do you well to read my OP carefully instead of flinging insults. I am not saying people should not help. I am concerned that the federal government is being shrunk and we are going to have to suffer the consequences. For your information, I am anything but ignorant.

[FLPanhandle]

32. I doubt you have experienced anything major, otherwise you wouldn't be "ambiguous"

If you really had experience in a major hurricane, you would know a few things.

1) There is no way any government agency, no matter how well funded would be able to handle a major disaster area like Harvey or other hurricanes alone. Period.

2) The best immediate rescuers are the ones who know the people, the area, have the right equipment for the location...i.e. the locals. If you had any experience you wouldn't be "ambiguous" about it. You would know it.

3) No one here is saying the government agencies should have funding reduced, but that government agencies take time to respond. Days and weeks to fully & effectively respond. If you had been through a major hurricane, again, you would know that.

Fine, be concerned about the reductions in funding for emergency services, but, if you had any experience, you would not be ambiguous about volunteers being key in the middle of the storm and immediately afterwards. You would know it.

[drray23]

35. read my post again.

i never said people should not help and volunteer in the immediate aftermath. What I was pointing out is that we should also have a better emergency response to support these same people.

We were hit by Isabel ( i think 2003 ?) . We live in a rural community in the tidewater area of Virginia. Isabel flooded everything around us and we were stuck 11 days without power and access to roads.
I spend days out with my neighbors cutting and pulling trees out of the roads to get people access.

[FLPanhandle]

41. Then you know that no government agency has enough resources to respond during the storm.

You are combining two separate things.

1) The immediate rescue and help during a storm across a wide area like in Houston. No government agency will ever have the resources and experience to pull that off. The best the government can do is help the volunteers in whatever limited way they can until major resources can arrive (days to weeks later). There is no reason to feel ambiguous about that effort.

2) The aftermath, is where the government shines. Temporary shelters & long term housing, cleanup, transportation repairs, food, water, gasoline, etc. The storm is still ongoing, so we will see how this administration responds in the next couple of days and weeks. This is where the federal government needs to step up.

[drray23]

43. I can see the issue is with my OP title

I have no objections to what you just wrote. Maybe my OP title is unclear and making it sound like I dont think people should help. Of course not, I recognize that in the immediate aftermath its the only response that works fast.
I am indeed concerned about 2) but also about the narrative Trump is pushing. i.e, cut everything and people will deal with it.

[FLPanhandle]

49. I think so too

It sounded like you are thinking the government should be doing the immediate rescue/help and private citizen/volunteers make you uncomfortable.

I live in a hurricane rich area and I also don't want to see any reductions in government emergency funding.

However, Harvey is going to require a massive amount of government help in the following months. Volunteers won't cut it.

[Squinch]

44. Drray, sadly I get what you are saying and it is a shame that others are reacting to

something you are not saying, and missing the important point you are making.

[drray23]

24. i have a very good idea.

I am not saying citizens should not help. As a matter of fact its the first thing I wrote in my OP. What I am trying to point out is that Trump is following a pattern of trying to defund everything (FEMA, coast guards, NOAA, etc..) and that while people will always pitch in in times of disaster, I am concerned that this pattern of defunding and denigrating public agencies will be seen as normal.

[Squinch]

42. The poster is making an important point. Of course everyone needs to do everything

they can, but in the months to come I guarantee the great mobilization of private citizens will be used as an excuse for the cutting of emergency response funding. It doesn't mean anyone is saying that private citizens should not be doing what they are doing. It means we need to watch for that response - which will come - and roar it down when it does.

[EL34x4]

70. Right? A massive hurricane utterly devastates the fourth largest city in the country...

...and certain people are worried that if neighbors help each other too much, they'll make government assistance look unnecessary.

Really?

If I didn't know better, I'd think this was trolling.

[procon]

20. The piecemeal approach we've witnessed following the last natural disasters

to hit the US seems to be focus on rescuing survivors under hazardous conditions. TPTB said it was impossible to evacuate large areas before the hurricane made landfall. Yet, contrast that response to Cuba, a small, poor country that succeeded in evacuating more than 1.5 million people, emptying out entire flood-prone coastal areas in advance of a hurricane. Their emergency planning has been widely written up as a model of efficiency. People are provided buses and move to secure shelters, well staffed, and with medical personnel, and stocked with food and water.

Why are we, the wealthiest nation on earth, with all our technologies and abilities, so poorly prepared? These events are going to recur more often as the effects of climate change becomes an obvious fact of life that can't be ignored any longer.

[gtar100]

58. There's only one answer to your 'why' question...

Republicans.

Every natural and man-made disaster we have ever had to deal with has always been exasperated by republicans.

[kentuck]

26. I think they are good examples of citizens.

Which Democrats would do well to emulate.

However, that does not mean we don't favor a strong and compassionate government. Was it Aristotle that spoke of "moderation in all things"? Would that include government? Or would that be too much of a "conservative" view to accept in the Democratic Party? After all, they have a monopoly on such ideas.

[samnsara]

27. what i hope results from all this is...ppl ( trumpers) being rescued AND

..those doing the rescuing realize that WE THE PEOPLE are the only ones who will take care of each other. Esp after they see Melania in stilettos and donniejohn trying to sell his fugly hats. Of course those folks don't even have TV, electricity, or other means to see what's going on with the hurricane as they are just trying to survive. But maybe...just maybe....

[dembotoz]

29. As in what happened if they don't show up

Need to have a paid backbone

[Hortensis]

33. Government will never maintain readiness for extremely unlikely disasters.

There are increasing returns on taxpayer investments to some point and then they start decreasing, more and more. Returns on near perfection are so extremely expensive for so little gain that it's almost never sought, yet some chronic malcontents were already spouting off when the first person out of almost 7 million died.

Drray, competent adults realize the first responsibility for protecting themselves lies with each of us, so that resources can be directed to others. The worse job we do, the worse even very good governments will perform. That's just the way it is in the real world.

Absolutely no ambivalence about private efforts here. We gave our name to a local church because we have a mobile home sitting empty in Florida.

[Sgent]

34. I know where your coming from

The Cajun Navy is a new thing -- last year was the first time that monkier was used (although private citizens have used their boats to rescue people for centuries in LA).

During the legislative session, the legislature tried to integrate them more fully into the total picture -- kinda like USCG Auxillary. They were going to offer a 1 day class in operations, co-ordination, etc. Not required but requested. A huge number of the R's, who are doing great work, thought the government was trying to take over and went nuts.

That said, there is no way that any government agency can have enough resources to do this kind of rescue. The job of the local, state, and federal emergency managers needs to be supporting these volunteers. Whether than means training, fuel, extra life jackets, water, ice, etc.

[drray23]

36. fully agree with your last paragraph.

I just worry that we are not moving in that direction of strenghtening federal agencies who can assist best in these situations.

[kentuck]

50. Amen!

They should be like part of our national navy. But, if they have boats, they would be a great asset to our nation, in calamities and disasters, such as this.

[Marengo]

37. I think it reveals many Americans are generous, courageous, and compassionate, regardless...

Of political orientation.

[MineralMan]

39. Actually, it's almost impossible for government to prepare for

once in a century events. That would be completely ineffective, cost-wise. That private citizens come to take up the slack is just common sense and happens every time such rare disasters occur. It's something really dependable, too, so it can be part of the overall preparation equation, and is in most places.

In my neighborhood, a tree fell on a neighbor's house. Trees were falling all over the place. Within two hours, neighbors had dealt with it, tarped a hole in the neighbor's roof and gone back to their homes. I hauled my electric chainsaw over there and did a lot of limbing of larger branches that had been removed. Others had more powerful equipment, ropes and other stuff. When we all left, the tree was off the house and most of it was reduced to firewood and smaller branches stacked up for removal. If we hadn't done that, the tree would still have been there a week later, waiting for a tree company to come and remove it. They were all very, very busy.

[Adrahil]

47. In a disaster of this scale...

Almost no standing force can be of sufficient size to provide immediate relief to people in need.

We always have to be prepared to help others out and not just wait for pros to do it. When they can, it's great, but we cannot always wait.

[Dawson Leery]

53. Private citizen rescues have been going on for thousands of years.

Nothing new.


We need every resource we can get.

[drmeow]

61. I feel that this is a significant problem

in a lot of areas. Teachers have to buy their own supplies and the public are encouraged to donate money (donors choose), various charities to support veterans (if someone serves and is injured while serving, their needs should be covered ... period!), first responders (911 responder cancers, anyone?), bailing out the banks but leaving homeowners to be screwed. It is all part and parcel of the broader effort to transfer wealth to richest and leave everyone else to fend for themselves. That doesn't mean, as you rightfully point out, that in extreme cases we shouldn't all pitch in and help each other - but there is an overarching ideology that government and government services are for the rich and powerful and the rest of us should be happy with crumbs.

[LanternWaste]

62. humanity has responded with assistance to those in need throughout history

"...groomed to expect that the government wont be able to provide these basic needs and that one has to pull oneselves (sic) by the bootstraps?

I see zero objective evidence of that. And, as humanity (both writ large and on the small, personal scale) has responded with assistance to those in need throughout history, the current civilian reaction seems much more typical than it does a suspect and creative conspiracy.

[Orsino]

65. Let's vote in a government that prioritizes disaster relief.

A well-funded and -managed FEMA would still be challenged by the crises we are likely to face in the coming years.

Blank checks for rescues, not for wars!

[hamsterjill]

66. Private citizen rescues can go horribly wrong, too.

Let me say that as a Texan, I am GRATEFUL for the help that the coastal areas are receiving. Grateful for any and all help.

That said, I'm following a lot of activity on social media. Well meaning people are doing the best that they can. Risking their own lives in many cases to help someone else.

But there is NO coordination. No communication. No central command. No one directing.

I realize that in any disaster, chaos of some degree is going to ensue. But there are instances where a centralized response by a trained, equipped central force is certainly more efficient and many times necessary.

How much better would it be if these private rescuers weren't wasting their time responding to calls for help that had already been answered, and could go on to the next needed situation?

Again, they are all doing the best that they can, but in some instances well meaning, untrained people are hampering rescue efforts - not out of bad intent but because they do not know any better.

[Lee-Lee]

67. Have you ever been involved in the budget process for things like

I have.

No matter what, the pot of money isn't unlimited.

And with that money you have to prioritize to things that will have the most impact overall. You can't plan just for one crazy event that may or may not happen.

Let's take just the city of Houston as an example.

Let's say they had the money to buy 25 water rescue boats, train 50 crews, and maintain those boats and the crews training for 5 years.

Now let's say that same money could open 2 new EMS bases and put 6 ambulances on the street for 5 years.

You know the ambulances will save lives. The boats may sit there and never get used.

What do you do?

[Demsrule86]

68. The government can't do it...so better than letting people die. Honestly politics need to end where

safety begins.

[Not Ruth]

69. How about police rescues? I just saw a caravan of about 20 NYPD vans headed to Houston on Facebook

They have no authority, so they are about the same as the Cajun Navy.

[ileus]

71. People have been helping fellow man forever.

Truth be told....it's not a bad thing.